That brings a question to mind, sorry if slightly off topic. Does a bow with an enhancement bonus convey the extra hardness and hp to arrows fired from it?
I've never thought so, personally.
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Are there sites that help with all the talenst and infusions? Like allowing me to filter by element?
I'd like to build a dwarfen geokinetecist and so far I am totally befuddled as how to actually do that.
And reading the book again and again doesn't really help, since it seems that you can do pretty much everything with that class... it's a bit overwhelming.
Archives of Nethys does just that, but it's down at the moment.
Are there sites that help with all the talenst and infusions? Like allowing me to filter by element?
I'd like to build a dwarfen geokinetecist and so far I am totally befuddled as how to actually do that.
And reading the book again and again doesn't really help, since it seems that you can do pretty much everything with that class... it's a bit overwhelming.
N.Jolly's guide lists all the talents by element and grades them to boot.
Someone also posted a spreadsheet with all the talents that you could sort and filter, but I can't seem to find it, but it is somewhere in this thread, just have to go through the 1000+ posts to find it. (I would have thought N.Jolly would have throw that in the guide).
Edit: I lied, I found it at Ravingdork's Character Emporium... more than just a character emporium!
Are there sites that help with all the talenst and infusions? Like allowing me to filter by element?
I'd like to build a dwarfen geokinetecist and so far I am totally befuddled as how to actually do that.
And reading the book again and again doesn't really help, since it seems that you can do pretty much everything with that class... it's a bit overwhelming.N.Jolly's guide lists all the talents by element and grades them to boot.
Someone also posted a spreadsheet with all the talents that you could sort and filter, but I can't seem to find it, but it is somewhere in this thread, just have to go through the 1000+ posts to find it. (I would have thought N.Jolly would have throw that in the guide).
Edit: I lied, I found it here
The spread sheet is courtesy of Ravingdork's Crazy Character Emporium, as you can see by my quote below:
Wild Talent Sorter for Kineticist Players
A big thanks to Talon Stormwarden for piecing together the original framework.
This tool will allow you to sort through all of the kinesticist's wild talents, blast wild talents, basic blast wild talents, composite blast wild talents, defense wild talents, infusion wild talents, infusion substance wild talents, infusion form wild talents and utility wild talents, all without fear of ever getting confused by them again. ;P
Many apologies Ravingdork, I should have known (it was saved as a bookmark).
Please take a moment and peruse the wonderful and astounding Ravingdork's Crazy Character Emporium. Be lost in its glories!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled... what ever happens in here.
Guys... Guys... Guys...
Darkness Snake Blast!
Darkness Snake Blast!
** spoiler omitted **
This can be done with a Move action Gather for free at level 8 and create GIANT areas of darkness. If your party is optimized for that kind of combat with you, havoc can be wreaked. This gets even sillier if you go with the Greater version of Darkness Infusion (which becomes free with a Move action Gather at level 14) and start turning all the normal light to supernatural darkness instead of just dim light.
I thought about that I felt that stacking my entanglings with my grapplings on my walls, deadly earths, and clouds was too good to give up.
Be careful. It's much harder to see through supernatural darkness than regular darkness.
Void gets a utility wild talent that can see through supernatural darkness.
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Guys... Guys... Guys...
Darkness Snake Blast!
Darkness Snake Blast!
** spoiler omitted **
This can be done with a Move action Gather for free at level 8 and create GIANT areas of darkness. If your party is optimized for that kind of combat with you, havoc can be wreaked. This gets even sillier if you go with the Greater version of Darkness Infusion (which becomes free with a Move action Gather at level 14) and start turning all the normal light to supernatural darkness instead of just dim light.
I thought about that I felt that stacking my entanglings with my grapplings on my walls, deadly earths, and clouds was too good to give up.
Be careful. It's much harder to see through supernatural darkness than regular darkness.Void gets a utility wild talent that can see through supernatural darkness.
Good for you, not so good for your teammates.
I think you forgot that Damage is halfed against weapons Tels before applying hardness.. an 18 damage fire would do nothing. Effectively, like fighting a Shadow demon with simply a magic weapon you need to do the twice the defense of the creature +2 to do 1 damage.
Context. I keep referring back to the theoretical wild talent I posted before.
Flesh of the Inferno[/b]
Element(s) fire Type utility (su) Level 5 Burn 0
Prerequisite searing fleshYour searing flesh kinetic defense becomes an inferno. The flames of your searing flesh are halved before being applied to hardness, and the damage dealt is applied to the weapons before they hit. If the damage dealt is enough to destroy the weapon or incoming projectile before it would hit you, you take no damage and it is treated as a miss.
[Edit] Forgot to add the prerequisite in the original posting.
The whole context of the post was based around the idea of new wild talents to augment fire's weak kinetic defense. Keeping it on theme of making it so people have to seriously decided whether or not to attack a pyrokineticist because doing so has repercussions. Even with this wild talent though, it takes a not-insignificant amount of burn to reach a level where you can reliably damage a weapon. At least, as long as you are fighting against a level appropriate foes.
Without the wild talent, 18 fire damage (acquired by accepting 5 burn to boost Searing Flesh), wouldn't do jack to even a basic longsword (hardness 10, hp 5) because it's halved to 9 points of damage. With the talent, a pyrokineticist could not even begin to worry about basic longswords becauss his flames are so intense that the longsword is melted before it even hit him (see the theoretical wild talent).
But even with the wild talent, if the pyrokineticist were coming up against +3 weapons, he'd still get hit and take damage because they are tough enough to survive a few hits from his kinetic defense. Especially if they're made from other materials, like mithral, or adamantine (which completely shuts down his defense). However, in order to damage said weapons, the pyrokineticist has to pump 7 burn into his weapons to really do so. At 6 burn, a pyrok deals 21 points of damage, which fails to penetrate the +3 mithril weapon's hardness, but [idoes[/i] damage a regular +3 weapon. At 7 points, he does 24 points of damage, which lets him damage the +3 weapon, and barely scratch the +3 mithril weapon. At this level, it's impossible for a pyrokineticist using only his defense to damage a +3 adamantine weapon.
I will say this: Searing flesh against objects is nice if you can do it, but it's not really an expectation. It excels far more against natural weapon users, which predominate in the Bestiary. Having tried it out, that 24 damage that doesn't hurt the +3 adamantine weapon is quite noticeable against something that decides to give you a claw/claw/bite (or, Shelyn forbid, claw/claw/bite+grab).
That brings a question to mind, sorry if slightly off topic. Does a bow with an enhancement bonus convey the extra hardness and hp to arrows fired from it?I've never thought so, personally.
Hmm... I thought they did, because bows give their magical properties to their ammunition, but in looking back at the rules, it doesn't. But it also made me realize something even more troubling than that.
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.
Technically, per RAW, an arrow fired from a +5 longbow is only treated as a magical weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction (and incorporeality) but not as a +5 weapon. It does not state that the bow gives it's enhancement bonus to the arrow when fired, only that it's treated as a magic weapon.
It's important to note that the rules specifically mention that a bow with an alignment gives that alignment to it's ammunition. This entire line wouldn't matter if the bow conveyed all of it's magical properties to it's arrows. But with the aid of this line, I think it's confirmed that an arrow is only treated as magic for overcoming damage reduction. In order to overcome other types of damage reduction, you need actual ammunition with an enhancement bonus.
Nice find, Tels. It's nice to know that bows and arrows aren't the go-to weapon for bypassing DR anymore.
EDIT: Well, I guess they still kind of would be, even with that limitation.
Good for you, not so good for your teammates.Guys... Guys... Guys...
Darkness Snake Blast!
Darkness Snake Blast!
** spoiler omitted **
This can be done with a Move action Gather for free at level 8 and create GIANT areas of darkness. If your party is optimized for that kind of combat with you, havoc can be wreaked. This gets even sillier if you go with the Greater version of Darkness Infusion (which becomes free with a Move action Gather at level 14) and start turning all the normal light to supernatural darkness instead of just dim light.
I thought about that I felt that stacking my entanglings with my grapplings on my walls, deadly earths, and clouds was too good to give up.
Be careful. It's much harder to see through supernatural darkness than regular darkness.Void gets a utility wild talent that can see through supernatural darkness.
Sounds more like an element meant for a kineticist with skeletal champion darkfolk minions
they see in darkness and aren't harmed by negative blastsAdd a pair of Fog-cutting Lenses or a dip into the air element for Windsight along with certain types of darkfolk for some tricks
At will—deeper darkness, detect magic, fog cloud
Nice find, Tels. It's nice to know that bows and arrows aren't the go-to weapon for bypassing DR anymore.
EDIT: Well, I guess they still kind of would be, even with that limitation.
Well, not just bows and arrows, all projectile weapons, so crossbows, guns, blowguns etc.
It just means ranged characters need to carry around a supply of ammunition that actually carries an enhancement bonus, instead of just relying on the bow. As it stands, a magical bow gives bonus to attack and damage rolls, but doesn't really do much for penetrating DR.
Kind of a roundabout way of "nerfing" archers. I wonder how many people have just assumed projectile weapons directly gave the enhancement bonus to weapons like I did? Could be a huge upset for archers everywhere.
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Hey there N. Jolly. Awesome guide. I do have one minor suggestion for it, though.
The Halfling section doesn't mention their Adaptable Luck alternate racial trait, which is fine, but it really merits attention in the text for the Fate's Favored trait. A +3 to a vital save, attack or skill check (or reflexive +2 after a low roll of the d20) can be a real life saver. Plus, this is a very feat-lite class, leaving room for racial feats that improve both the bonus and uses per day of this clutch ability.
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I think you forgot that Damage is halfed against weapons Tels before applying hardness.. an 18 damage fire would do nothing. Effectively, like fighting a Shadow demon with simply a magic weapon you need to do the twice the defense of the creature +2 to do 1 damage.Context. I keep referring back to the theoretical wild talent I posted before.
Flesh of the Inferno
Element(s) fire Type utility (su) Level 5 Burn 0
Prerequisite searing fleshYour searing flesh kinetic defense becomes an inferno. The flames of your searing flesh are halved before being applied to hardness, and the damage dealt is applied to the weapons before they hit. If the damage dealt is enough to destroy the weapon or incoming projectile before it would hit you, you take no damage and it is treated as a miss.
So you meant to say "are not halved"?
So you meant to say "are not halved"?I think you forgot that Damage is halfed against weapons Tels before applying hardness.. an 18 damage fire would do nothing. Effectively, like fighting a Shadow demon with simply a magic weapon you need to do the twice the defense of the creature +2 to do 1 damage.Context. I keep referring back to the theoretical wild talent I posted before.
Flesh of the Inferno
Element(s) fire Type utility (su) Level 5 Burn 0
Prerequisite searing fleshYour searing flesh kinetic defense becomes an inferno. The flames of your searing flesh are halved before being applied to hardness, and the damage dealt is applied to the weapons before they hit. If the damage dealt is enough to destroy the weapon or incoming projectile before it would hit you, you take no damage and it is treated as a miss.
Well.... damn. I guess the jokes on me then huh?
Am I missing some crucial element (pun intended) or does the defensive wild talent for wood, Flesh of Wood, REALLY suck? I mean, all the other defenses scale to some degree before having to spend burn to increase it yet the bonus to Natural Armor stays at +1 unless you pay... What is so great about NA that it doesn't scale?
Am I missing some crucial element (pun intended) or does the defensive wild talent for wood, Flesh of Wood, REALLY suck? I mean, all the other defenses scale to some degree before having to spend burn to increase it yet the bonus to Natural Armor stays at +1 unless you pay... What is so great about NA that it doesn't scale?
As Mark said somewhere else: that it adds up.
Water's defensive talent (the most directly comparable, since they both add to AC) competes with a magical armour/shield, so it needs to scale to stay relevant. Flesh of wood adds to your magican armour and shield.Fire's defense scales becasue so do enemy hit points.
Air's does because so does enemies' chance to hit.
Earth's does because so does enemies' attack damage.
So, just because all four original element's defenses scale does not mean it's the default. It's a case-by-case consideration based on game balance.
Am I missing some crucial element (pun intended) or does the defensive wild talent for wood, Flesh of Wood, REALLY suck? I mean, all the other defenses scale to some degree before having to spend burn to increase it yet the bonus to Natural Armor stays at +1 unless you pay... What is so great about NA that it doesn't scale?As Mark said somewhere else: that it adds up.
Water's defensive talent (the most directly comparable, since they both add to AC) competes with a magical armour/shield, so it needs to scale to stay relevant. Flesh of wood adds to your magican armour and shield.Fire's defense scales becasue so do enemy hit points.
Air's does because so does enemies' chance to hit.
Earth's does because so does enemies' attack damage.So, just because all four original element's defenses scale does not mean it's the default. It's a case-by-case consideration based on game balance.
I think that's an unfair comparison, cause Flesh of Wood competes with the amulet of natural armor in terms of bonus type, but to stay competitive FoW needs to be feeded with burn intensively, otherwise becoming useless when leveling.
Shroud of Water on the other part competes with armors and bracers of armor, but without investing a single point of burn SoW reaches a +8 bonus, the same value of the best of Bracers of Armor. As a shield, SoW is even better, at 20th provides the same AC of a small shield +5 or heavy shield +4, all without using a hand and zero burn (also kineticists are not proficient in using shields and need both hands free to Gather).
Considering you're supposed to be accepting burn at the start of the day to utilize your defense wild talent and power up your elemental overflow, I'm not seeing that as a problem--unless you planned on conserving your burn points, which strongly indicates you don't know how to play a kineticist properly anyways.
A kineticist should almost always start the adventuring day with enough burn to max out his elemental overflow; and the best way to do that is by activating your defense wild talent.
My phytokineticist, Arbutus, absolutely loves his defense wild talent; it's one of the things that allows him to tank so incredibly well. It also allows him to free up his neck slot on far more interesting things.
Considering you're supposed to be accepting burn at the start of the day to utilize your defense wild talent and power up your elemental overflow, I'm not seeing that as a problem--unless you planned on conserving your burn points, which strongly indicates you don't know how to play a kineticist properly anyways.
A kineticist should almost always start the adventuring day with enough burn to max out his elemental overflow; and the best way to do that is by activating your defense wild talent.
My phytokineticist, Arbutus, absolutely loves his defense wild talent; it's one of the things that allows him to tank so incredibly well. It also allows him to free up his neck slot on far more interesting things.
It doesn't "have to" always be the boosted defense. You can use those all day utility Talents like kinetic form too. But yes most of the defense talents should have some invested burn. Aether, earth, and water are the best examples of that.
Yes, of course; though you do tend to get more mileage out of your defense wild talents.
Flesh of Wood tends to be a bit better for a Phytokineticist because there are no real other options to invest burn (almost no Wood utility requires burn to activate).
Duo- or tri-elemental kineticists (phytos or non-phytos) on the other hand have a wider selection of utility wild talents and other elemental defenses that are way better than FoW (Shroud of Water for example as I writed before for example, or Flesh of Stone and Force of Ward as well).
It doesn't "have to" always be the boosted defense. You can use those all day utility Talents like kinetic form too. But yes most of the defense talents should have some invested burn. Aether, earth, and water are the best examples of that.
I agree with you, Kinetic Form is the best example. Semi-defenses (those Utility wild talents that often require its related elemental defense, and provide a defensive bonus all day long, like Shimmering Image or Jagged Flesh) are possibly second.
My phytokineticist, Arbutus, absolutely loves his defense wild talent; it's one of the things that allows him to tank so incredibly well. It also allows him to free up his neck slot on far more interesting things.
About that, Arbutus is carrying a shield and has no quick draw feat or the like, how can he Gather Power?
About that, Arbutus is carrying a shield and has no quick draw feat or the like, how can he Gather Power?
It's a light shield. Only heavy shields are so heavy that you can't use the hand for anything else. A light shield on the other hand lets you do things like carry items in the shield hand (but not wield weapons), or even reload.
About that, Arbutus is carrying a shield and has no quick draw feat or the like, how can he Gather Power?It's a light shield. Only heavy shields completely use up your hand, keeping you from wielding weapons or holding items and the like. A light shield on the other hand lets you do things like carry items in the shield hand (but not wield weapons).
I thought that only applied to bucklers? Not that it would really matter much, as bucklers and light shields have the same shield bonus.
I chose the light shield because it could be made of wood. I felt it was thematically appropriate.
I suppose you could argue he wouldn't get his shield bonus from the light shield while gathering power since he would have to let go of it (I would imagine gripping and ungripping it is a free action). Similar logic would dictate the same for the buckler too though; if you're using your hand/arm for gather power, you obviously aren't using it to block incoming attacks.
About that, Arbutus is carrying a shield and has no quick draw feat or the like, how can he Gather Power?It's a light shield. Only heavy shields are so heavy that you can't use the hand for anything else. A light shield on the other hand lets you do things like carry items in the shield hand (but not wield weapons), or even reload.
OK. I imagine this is arguable 'cause that rule for light shields is for carrying items only and says nothing about spellcasting or other actions, and may vary from table to table, but you have already anticipated this on your second post.
The opinion on Shroud of Water will change accordingly depending on the ruling on this.
The opinion on Shroud of Water will change accordingly depending on the ruling on this.
What do you mean? The SoW shield is floating. It doesn't need hands.
What do you mean? The SoW shield is floating. It doesn't need hands.
The opinion on Shroud of Water will change accordingly depending on the ruling on this.
Right, the mechanics are just a shield bonus, but it's not actually a shield.
But if you can have a shield anyways then getting the free shield bonus isn't as attractive an option.
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Pretty sure there's room for argument that if you gather power (which uses all limbs), you don't get the shield bonus, although that's not something I'd like to consider. Shields are really just magnets for bonuses you can't throw onto your armor, which makes me love Shroud of Water.
So yeah, wood's defense is bad even with its ability to stack, and scaling should be the default when the original 5 were based around scaling, and I feel like even a slow scaling bonus would have been better than no scaling at all.
Pretty sure there's room for argument that if you gather power (which uses all limbs), you don't get the shield bonus, although that's not something I'd like to consider. Shields are really just magnets for bonuses you can't throw onto your armor, which makes me love Shroud of Water.
Do you mean the light shield/buckler? Because I'd agree with that. But the SoW shield is hands free so you should keep that AC bonus.
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Pretty sure there's room for argument that if you gather power (which uses all limbs), you don't get the shield bonus, although that's not something I'd like to consider. Shields are really just magnets for bonuses you can't throw onto your armor, which makes me love Shroud of Water.Do you mean the light shield/buckler? Because I'd agree with that. But the SoW shield is hands free so you should keep that AC bonus.
Yeah, I meant the LS/B, since they're on the arm, and that arm is getting waved all around to help summon up energy, making SOW that much better as it's just floating along.
so, is it just me or has Void replaced Aether completely when it comes to physical damage builds? bumping those d6s to d8s feels way better than a fixed 1 damage at least to me, others may thing otherwise (i think that a Earth/Air/Void mix would work quite nicely with a gravity-boosted sandstorm blast)
@shiroi I agree. Already not having to drop half our income on weapons already puts us at a financial advantage in letting us put our money in our gear.
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@shiroi I agree. Already not having to drop half our income on weapons already puts us at a financial advantage in letting us put our money in our gear.
I'm not saying it should have scaling equal to SOW, but something like 1, 8, 16 would make it feel more in line with others rather than the sore thumb that it is.
Although I will agree Kins need cash for very little, making me wish they had more magic items specific to themselves. I have a few ideas for some myself, things Kins could use aside from big 6 gear.
so, is it just me or has Void replaced Aether completely when it comes to physical damage builds? bumping those d6s to d8s feels way better than a fixed 1 damage at least to me, others may thing otherwise (i think that a Earth/Air/Void mix would work quite nicely with a gravity-boosted sandstorm blast)
Void only edges out when you combine it with maximize for a 2 damage per dice gain over the standard 1 damage per dice that both gravity and aether give and 1.5 damage per dice with empower (3.5 dmg -> 4.5 dmg = +1 per dice). Otherwise they average out the same but aether, IMO, has better utility right now until void can get more supplemental wild talents.
EDIT: If you really want to stack on the damage, however, then you'll want to go void/void/aether or void/aether/void. This will give you access to the void composite blast. Then you can void composite blast + gravitic boost + aetheric boost. This would put your base blast damage at 20d8+40 (130 avg) for only 3 burn at 20 before any added bonuses.
so, is it just me or has Void replaced Aether completely when it comes to physical damage builds? bumping those d6s to d8s feels way better than a fixed 1 damage at least to me, others may thing otherwise (i think that a Earth/Air/Void mix would work quite nicely with a gravity-boosted sandstorm blast)
You're getting a 1 damage boost per die anyway, from 3.5 average to 4.5 average. It's the same as simply adding that extra 1 damage to begin with. Unlike adding the 1 though, 4.5 damage per die isn't guaranteed. The 1 extra damage would probably come out ahead in most situations, except for those extreme rolls where you land a bunch of 6s, 7s, and 8s.
That said, you can combo any element with both Aether and Void and still have a composite to show for it. It won't be as good as other dual-element composites, but it's better than nothing.
EDIT: Finished posting, noticed the comment above me stated the same idea.
Another thing about void is that you can now have an energy composite blast that isn't pure fire. Any energy blast can combine with void to make a composite, which increases your options significantly for anyone who wants to go energy.
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So while going against better knowledge, I plan on making a Kinetic Chirurgeon (For a different game, loving my Pryo/Vizier.. highly recommended IMO) but I noticed something very important..
While They keep Composite Specilization so you can shoot free composites.. there is still Omnikinesis (Su) and Metakinetic Master (Su)What are you supposed to pick with the latter ability? And Why was Omnikinesis changed to influence the change in any significant way... when the Kineticist loses half the school of infusions?
While Infusion specialization reduced blasting burn.. why was there no equivalent to this archetype? The Mercy on gets one application as well..
Was the above all intended? If Mark or anyone can give some insight that would be much appreciated.
Right, the mechanics are just a shield bonus, but it's not actually a shield.What do you mean? The SoW shield is floating. It doesn't need hands.
The opinion on Shroud of Water will change accordingly depending on the ruling on this.
What I mean is if kineticists can benefit from a light shield while Gathering Power, then nothing would stop a kineticist from carrying one, preferably without armor check penalty. This decreases the greatness of SoW a bit accordingly 'cause the only real benefit will be saving money (which is superfluous for kineticists).
In those games when a kineticist cannot Gather Power with a shield nor a buckler, SoW in shield form becomes a wonderful AC booster, to be always prioritized in respect of FoW.
I'm not saying it should have scaling equal to SOW, but something like 1, 8, 16 would make it feel more in line with others rather than the sore thumb that it is.wrote:
@shiroi I agree. Already not having to drop half our income on weapons already puts us at a financial advantage in letting us put our money in our gear.
I'm with Jolly, a small automatic progression would have been appreciated. FoW as it is now is not a great defense compared to other Elemental defenses.
I think that this "enhancement bonus to natural armor" was not the best road to go. Perhaps a small bonus to Stealth and Swim checks or something about natural healing like the Nature Oracle revelation "Spirit of Nature" would have been a better compromise.
So i am playing in a reign of winter game that is gestalt and i wanted to combine the Eldritch Archer with the Kineticist but i am stuck at an impasse
One one hand the pyrokineticist would be mechanically stronger and could deal better with the cold but on the other hand the gravity based chaokineticist from occult origins looks so badass, im really tempted to go gravity then expand into air but fire into air would be mechanically stronger and the utility would help way more with the cold than the gravity would
So i am playing in a reign of winter game that is gestalt and i wanted to combine the Eldritch Archer with the Kineticist but i am stuck at an impasse
One one hand the pyrokineticist would be mechanically stronger and could deal better with the cold but on the other hand the gravity based chaokineticist from occult origins looks so badass, im really tempted to go gravity then expand into air but fire into air would be mechanically stronger and the utility would help way more with the cold than the gravity would
Chaokineticists aren't all that great until higher levels. They have GREAT battlefield control options, but most either don't come online until late in the game, or actively interfere with your fellow party members' ability to bring the pain.
I was looking over the Pyro guide linked in yours, N.Jolly, and did a quick check and saw that Kinetic Whip doesn't give 15ft reach. Not worth that much burn now.
Of course, the whole reason I looked is because Hero Forge has an awesome option for miniatures using a bladed chain I thought was perfect for Rare Metal Geokinetics.