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More feats? Like which ones?
Like the feat I designed earlier in this thread, or others that would be thematic and fun (I'm writing feats for something now so I'm not going to discuss them for obvious reasons), as the OA feats for the most part aren't really that good for the class. It's why I haven't seen any other guides talk about them even if I do find the teamwork feat cool.
1) Void has been a primary element in oriental mythology.
2) A void is often seen as a black hole, which is a gravitational force, not to mention that Darkness is often associated to negative energy
3) Both negative and positive energies are viable elements for a Kineticist to wield.
I'm not saying void is an 'out of place' element, I'm saying the implementation of it in the game was an idea dump. Combining gravity and negative energy just feels strange, and again, negative energy by itself would have been fine as its own element, but smashed together with gravity didn't make it feel more unique, it made the element feel like a hodgepodge of ideas, or as I stated, an idea dump.
Sure, darkness is attached to negative energy, but not gravity so much, that's a little out of left field if you're already going to associate it with negative energy. Combining the two makes the focus seem more scattered when one or the other would have worked for the theme. Some of the gravity abilities are fun, I'm not arguing that, but again I can admit it was page count being the enemy here most likely, and I'm seriously looking forward to more void to help round it into more of a complete element.
Wood, like metal, is a primary element. Dude, we even have magic schools for both metal and wood for wizards.
I could have seen it as an alternate energy for Earth, but they did separate it anyway. Not complaining though.
I'm not arguing that wood is a basic element in some mythos, I don't know why you think I am. I'm arguing that the kineticist's wood element is redundant due to what it does. Wood brings nothing new to the table that its sister element earth doesn't already provide.
It's lacking in anything that makes me want to play it or suggest it to others, and that's not what I'm looking for in an element. Can it be played? Sure, probably as well as a discount earth, and since earth's probably my fave element, it can do decently as long as there's a solid amount of forest in the game. Is it better than any other element to the point where I'd suggest playing it over them? Right now, that answer's no, and really it'd take some pretty creative thinking to change my mind.
I think void would make a great secondary element to earth, for example. The negative energy blast nicely supplements the physical earth blasts giving you the option of making touch attacks when you couldn't before. The No Breath wild talent also combines nicely with Earth Glide and Tremorsense, allowing you to hide or wait in ambush forever.I think Air Shroud is a better use for "forever in rock" because then you get access to better and earlier flight as well as a better composite in sandstorm blast.
Totally agree with Texas here, not to mention by the point you're selecting a second element, getting infinite air isn't exactly hard to do through magic items, making void less useful as a partner to earth.
EDIT: Also for some reason I can't view this prince of flowers, but somehow I believe they'd be better as a geomancer.
RD, I really can't see a single thing wood is doing that earth isn't doing a lot better. Earth is more universal with a better defense and better offensive options when compared to wood, and that's not something I want to see. I want wood to feel better as a stand alone element. I mean hell, aether's an amazing secondary element and I'd still suggest people go solo aether if they wanted for a fun time.
Like in my mind, void and fire are cousin elements because they have a pretty singular damage focus that both obscure the battle field (smoke/darkness), get the kineticist's pseudo flight (flame get/gravity control), and other factors. I'm not super in love with that, it's one of the reasons I'm not in love with void, I would have liked to have seen more positioning based abilities from the gravity side, but void feels like it can grow into something more interesting with more space. Some more control abilities, some more negative energy abilities, things that help the theme, and we're golden!
Wood...doesn't. Wood starts with a boring basis and doesn't do anything with it. It's probably the fault of it coming after earth, earth took all its cool toys, and everything cool that it does (like deadly earth) comes from earth. Most of wood's toys need to be useful, it's like a more extreme version of water, but without water's superior elemental defense and overall charm.
So far you're the only one trying to talk up wood mechanically, and to me that says a bit since people were all up on void when it first came out, but there was no wood buzz. Hell, I didn't even know there was a second element in the book for a while. When nothing in a class can break a green rating, that's not something I can suggest, especially when green isn't even the norm for its ratings.
I'm not arguing that wood is a basic element in some mythos, I don't know why you think I am. I'm arguing that the kineticist's wood element is redundant due to what it does. Wood brings nothing new to the table that its sister element earth doesn't already provide.
It's lacking in anything that makes me want to play it or suggest it to others, and that's not what I'm looking for in an element. Can it be played? Sure, probably as well as a discount earth, and since earth's probably my fave element, it can do decently as long as there's a solid amount of forest in the game. Is it better than any other element to the point where I'd suggest playing it over them? Right now, that answer's no, and really it'd take some pretty creative thinking to change my mind.
You... could look at it from another angle, because even if some talents are redundant, sometimes the element itself offers other talents in return. Earth and Wood are similar, but in the end, the other talents make them different.
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You... could look at it from another angle, because even if some talents are redundant, sometimes the element itself offers other talents in return. Earth and Wood are similar, but in the end, the other talents make them different.
I could, and I did when reviewing it.
Tremorsense vs. greensight? Tremorsense wins, even with its prohibitively short duration with or without burn due to how much more universally useful it is.
Flesh of stone vs. flesh of wood? Probably the easiest comparison you can make to give earth the edge.
Literally any infusion vs. toxic infusion? I would take any infusion in the game over toxic infusion.
I could go on, but there's no favorable comparison for wood here that I can see aside from some cool composite blast that don't do anything better than earth anyways.
I'm not arguing that they're not different, I'm saying that wood is simply weaker in the places where it's different. You can be different and bad. Where they're similar, earth wins due to just being stronger since metal is a better composite than anything wood has. Where they're different, earth wins because its abilities are just better and more universal. It's a lose/lose for playing wood that I can't recommend when a superior element is waiting in the wings.
When wood's 'thing' is being a forest earth and not doing as well as earth in a forest, I'm not sure what there is to recommend.
EDIT: After consideration, both pushing and pulling infusion are now orange, I have learned better about the value of positioning with a party that will (attempt to) work with me.
Can pulling infusion used with a negative energy blast be used on an object to pull an object without dealing any damage to it ?
The problem with any infusion that requires a cmb check is that Kineticists are not full BAB, and unless you're fighting humanoids with classes that aren't full BAB, other infusions are usually more useful.
The problem with any infusion that requires a cmb check is that Kineticists are not full BAB, and unless you're fighting humanoids with classes that aren't full BAB, other infusions are usually more useful.
Your Elemental Overflow bonus to attack should also be going toward those CMB checks, so you should get similar to full-BAB checks.
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The only thing earth has on Wood that I can see is late-game mobility from earth glide.
Wood on the other hand, can spam minions of various kinds to throw at foes and has better battlefield control. Using plant growth to make the battlefield basically impassible for everyone but you and your woodland stride is incredible! You can even block vision with it, allowing only you to see through all the plant matter. No other element can lock down the battlefield quite like wood can. Earth does come real close though.
Wood is also the most versatile in that it stacks well with any other base element. It doesn't matter whether you take air, earth, fire, or water, you will end up with a nice composite blast--unlike several other elements which don't combine well with certain others.
Wood might not be the most powerful, but it has a LOT going for it.
Wood should have been scrapped...
BLASPHEMY!!!
I WAITED TWENTY YEARS FOR EXACTLY THOSE RULES!!!
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Also for some reason I can't view this prince of flowers, but somehow I believe they'd be better as a geomancer.
If you're interested in seeing it, PM me your E-mail address and I'll send it to you.
The only thing earth has on Wood that I can see is late-game mobility from earth glide.
That is no small advantage...
Wood on the other hand, can spam minions of various kinds to throw at foes and has better battlefield control.
Minions far weaker than the expected CR and thus die to accidental damage...
Using plant growth to make the battlefield basically impassible for everyone but you and your woodland stride is incredible!
including your allies both mundane and summoned...
You can even block vision with it, allowing only you to see through all the plant matter.
I'm seeing a pattern...
No other element can lock down the battlefield quite like wood can. Earth does come real close though.
in a paces with plants... hope you don't plan on going underground, in a city, to a desert, on/in a mountain, to a tundra, on a boat...
Wood is also the most versatile in that it stacks well with any other base element. It doesn't matter whether you take air, earth, fire, or water, you will end up with a nice composite blast--unlike several other elements which don't combine well with certain others.
you mean just like earth?
Wood might not be the most powerful, but it has a LOT going for it.
Wood should have been scrapped...BLASPHEMY!!!
I WAITED TWENTY YEARS FOR EXACTLY THOSE RULES!!!
I am so sorry...
Small note though, if you can score a campaign that is largely nature based with a party of 4 Kineticist all with wood/*one of the other base four* playing as the guardians of the seasons, I could see that being interesting
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Sounds like Wood is particularly good for a thematic NPC/villain meant to be encountered in a specific context, but plays less well for a PC in a typical party?
Small note though, if you can score a campaign that is largely nature based with a party of 4 Kineticist all with wood/*one of the other base four* playing as the guardians of the seasons, I could see that being interesting
Darn it, my list of "theme campaigns I want to run/play" is already going to take a decade to get through...
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@RD sent you a message, and as for wood, Josh really said it best, but we're forgetting the important thing here.
You gain woodland stride, as per the druid ability. Due to your ability to manipulate plants, you can attempt a caster level check (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level) as a standard action to also ignore magically manipulated plants (but not creatures of the plant type).
Pretty sure Wild Growth is magical, meaning you have to make a caster check to actually walk through your own area. This is at 10th level, so your 'thing' is pretty late into things, which means Greensight (something that's VERY hard for the rest of your party to get, unlike seeing through smoke/darkness, so you're probably the only one who can make ranged attacks since it's difficult to risk the 50% chance of your Woodland Step failing without taking spell penetration (which is worthless for your physical blast.) The earlier something can get off the ground the better, and wood's only real trick pops up at 10th level, at least that makes it different than earth.
Note that's two talents really needed to make Wild Growth worth it (one if you decide to just ping from a range with Greensight.) I mean sure, you could say the same thing for void (needing eyes of the void as well as its upgrade) but that's only saying void's thing isn't great either, although you can use it to break line of sight up to 20 ft high which is nice.
That's a very long time being discount earth, who gets metal infusion which beats every composite that wood has thanks to Magnetic Infusion. Again, you're also discounting the VAST difference in power between flesh of earth and flesh of wood. Wood would be okayish without earth, but earth is always useful, wood only shines in woodland.
Completely separate question, would undead be considered negative energy's type for draining infusion?
Well the simple RAW answer to that is do Undead have the Negative energy Subtype? No? Then no.
As a GM however... I'm LEANING yes... but I'd have to put it to a nights rest.
I do not own Occult Origin so I'm staying out of the discussion for the time being, but I just want to point out that having only Energy as Composite is not really a great place to be. Fire get to pick Pure Flame so he can somewhat afford it, but Void does not have this luxury if I understand correctly. Most enemy above CR 8 have RI, and those that don't are mostly undead so this put Negative Energy blast in a very rough spot.
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I do not own Occult Origin so I'm staying out of the discussion for the time being, but I just want to point out that having only Energy as Composite is not really a great place to be. Fire get to pick Pure Flame so he can somewhat afford it, but Void does not have this luxury if I understand correctly. Most enemy above CR 8 have RI, and those that don't are mostly undead so this put Negative Energy blast in a very rough spot.
Not many creatures have Negative Energy resistance, so it's not really too big a deal.
You gain woodland stride, as per the druid ability. Due to your ability to manipulate plants, you can attempt a caster level check (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level) as a standard action to also ignore magically manipulated plants (but not creatures of the plant type).Pretty sure Wild Growth is magical, meaning you have to make a caster check to actually walk through your own area.
Plant growth is instantaneous. Nothing magical about it after it's cast.
This is at 10th level, so your 'thing' is pretty late into things, which means Greensight (something that's VERY hard for the rest of your party to get, unlike seeing through smoke/darkness, so you're probably the only one who can make ranged attacks since it's difficult to risk the 50% chance of your Woodland Step failing without taking spell penetration (which is worthless for your physical blast.) The earlier something can get off the ground the better, and wood's only real trick pops up at 10th level, at least that makes it different than earth.
I absolutely do agree that wood's real strength comes late in the game. This really is no different from earth, however.
Note that's two talents really needed to make Wild Growth worth it (one if you decide to just ping from a range with Greensight.) I mean sure, you could say the same thing for void (needing eyes of the void as well as its upgrade) but that's only saying void's thing isn't great either, although you can use it to break line of sight up to 20 ft high which is nice.
I'm not altogether certain plant growth even does block line of sight.
That's a very long time being discount earth, who gets metal infusion which beats every composite that wood has thanks to Magnetic Infusion.
I've never seen a need for magnetic infusion, and personally believe that people overvalue it (though it is quite strong).
Again, you're also discounting the VAST difference in power between flesh of earth and flesh of wood.
I would take AC bonuses over minor damage reduction any day of the week. I don't understand why people think the earth defense wild talent is so much better. It isn't.
Wood would be okayish without earth, but earth is always useful, wood only shines in woodland.
Shines better more like. Wood is still plenty useful outside of woodland areas. If nothing else, you can carry a sack of seeds with you. You can always throw them on the ground and use plant growth to make full grown plants and trees if it ever becomes necessary.
I don't imagine earth would be terribly useful in the arctic where there's no stone to shape or manipulate, or fire under water. Most game options are going to be situational somewhere.
I would take AC bonuses over minor damage reduction any day of the week. I don't understand why people think the earth defense wild talent is so much better. It isn't.
at max burn DR 20/adamantine isn't better than +7 Natural Armor? and at zero burn DR 10/adamantine isn't better than +1 NA? Sure... I've got a bridge I'm looking to sell and you just might be the right guy...
Shines better more like. Wood is still plenty useful outside of woodland areas. If nothing else, you can carry a sack of seeds with you. You can always throw them on the ground and use plant growth to make full grown plants and trees if it ever becomes necessary.
You might actually want to read what Plant Growth does...
I would take AC bonuses over minor damage reduction any day of the week. I don't understand why people think the earth defense wild talent is so much better. It isn't.
I tend to prefer 1 AC over 1 DR for burn spend as well, but the more interesting thing is to compare to shroud of water:
Level 6 (2 burn to fill overflow, 3 to pick up size bonuses): Water gives you a 1000 gp +1 shield for no burn or a 4000 gp +2 shield for 1 burn. Wood gives you a 2000 gp amulet of natural armor +1 for no burn, a 8000 gp amulet of natural armor +2 for 1 burn, or an 18000 gp amulet of natural armor +3 for 2 burn.
Level 9 (3 burn to fill overflow and pick up size bonuses): Water gives you a 1000 gp +1 shield for no burn or a 4000 gp +2 shield for 1 burn. Wood gives you a 2000 gp amulet of natural armor +1 for no burn, a 8000 gp amulet of natural armor +2 for 1 burn, an 18000 gp amulet of natural armor +3 for 2 burn, and a 32000 gp amulet of natural armor +4 for 3 burn.
Level 12 (4 burn to fill overflow, 5 to pick up size bonuses): Water gives you a 4000 gp +2 shield for no burn, a 9000 gp +3 shield for 1 burn, or a 16000 gp +4 shield for 2 burn. Wood gives you a 2000 gp amulet of natural armor +1 for no burn, a 8000 gp amulet of natural armor +2 for 1 burn, an 18000 gp amulet of natural armor +3 for 2 burn, a 32000 gp amulet of natural armor +4 for 3 burn, and a 50000 gp amulet of natural armor +5 for 4 burn.
Level 15/16 (5 burn to fill overflow, 5/7 to pick up size bonuses): Water gives you a 9000 gp +3 shield for no burn, a 16000 gp +4 shield for 1 burn, or a 25000 gp +5 shield for 2 burn. Wood gives you a 2000 gp amulet of natural armor +1 for no burn, a 8000 gp amulet of natural armor +2 for 1 burn, an 18000 gp amulet of natural armor +3 for 2 burn, a 32000 gp amulet of natural armor +4 for 3 burn, a 50000 gp amulet of natural armor +5 for 4 burn, and a <impossible to buy> amulet of natural armor +6 for 5 burn.
Level 18 (6 burn to fill overflow. 7 to pick up size bonuses): Water gives you a 16000 gp +4 shield for no burn, a 25000 gp +5 shield for 1 burn, an <impossible to buy> +6 shield for 2 burn, and an <impossible to buy+1> +7 shield for 3 burn. Wood gives you a 2000 gp amulet of natural armor +1 for no burn, a 8000 gp amulet of natural armor +2 for 1 burn, an 18000 gp amulet of natural armor +3 for 2 burn, a 32000 gp amulet of natural armor +4 for 3 burn, a 50000 gp amulet of natural armor +5 for 4 burn, an <impossible to buy> amulet of natural armor +6 for 5 burn, and an <impossible to buy+1> amulet of natural armor +7 for 6 burn.
So looking there, wood is just better in a variety of ways (strong start, better gp value of scaling, allows more burn toward overflow if you want) at levels 1 through 9. At level 12, water catches up a little and has a better start, but if you spend at least 2 burn on both of them (and you're probably likely to do so), wood is still ahead, plus it allows more if you want. At 15/16 water is ahead unless you use more burn on wood, but wood lets you use more if you want and can possibly get your enhancement bonus higher than it otherwise could go. Finally, at level 18, water is by far your better bet efficiency-wise, since both of them can cap out at 2 higher than you could ever get (I mean I guess you could do the shield bonus with an animated tower shield or something, but meh, we'll still call it impossible+1) but water does it for less.
All things considered, I'd rather have the one that's certainly stronger 1-9, has different strengths and weaknesses but overall stronger at 12 unless you weren't going to burn your defense, mixed and slightly below water, though better if you were going to spend more burn at 15, and then just overall worse at 18. It will depend on your group though. If you have a generous alchemist, shroud of water loses value because they can infuse shield. If you have a generous druid, flesh of wood loses value because they might provide barkskin for everyone all the time and thus make it so nobody buys the amulet.
So some longwinded comparisons there for ya :)
Wall infusion is a line between squares. It says people adjacent to it take damage on initial cast. But after that the only way to take damage is to cross it. Does that mean a grappling wall that grapples foes doesn’t continue to do damage each round if it maintains the grapple? And if I use pushing infusion, do I have to push them through the wall or just to adjacent to the wall to get them to receive wall damage?
Can I only do a wall as a north/south or east/west so that it fits in the line between squares? If not, does that mean that somebody ending their turn on a square that the wall goes through takes wall damage?
at max burn DR 20/adamantine isn't better than +7 Natural Armor? and at zero burn DR 10/adamantine isn't better than +1 NA? Sure... I've got a bridge I'm looking to sell and you just might be the right guy...
Why on earth are you assuming +1 NA? Don't you know that any competent kineticist maxes out their elemental overflow?
At almost every level you are likely to play at, that extra bonus to AC is going to prevent more incoming damage than that DR will.
Shines better more like. Wood is still plenty useful outside of woodland areas. If nothing else, you can carry a sack of seeds with you. You can always throw them on the ground and use plant growth to make full grown plants and trees if it ever becomes necessary.You might actually want to read what Plant Growth does...
*Rereads spell*
Hah. I blame my GM for locking us down with it even though we were in a clearing.
I guess you can resort to tree feather tokens, or large plants shrunk with shrink object.
I'm not sure how to feel about wood. It hits upon the Pathfinder math I am the worst at due to inexperience with those mechanics.
But, I will say you can make an equivalent to a face character for trees. Face characters are easy to underestimate. I have a feeling a good wood kineticist would refuse to battle in open combat. Does that make wood good? IDK. But, it's a wildly different playstyle that focuses more on elementals and control.
QUESTION: Does the bonus from Elemental Overflow apply to attack and damage of Kinetic Fist, as KF does not have the wording Kinetic Blade or Whip has? This could be important for Natural Attack users.
P.S.: Now I want to play a Gestalt Druid/Kineticist...
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QUESTION: Does the bonus from Elemental Overflow apply to attack and damage of Kinetic Fist, as KF does not have the wording Kinetic Blade or Whip has? This could be important for Natural Attack users.
P.S.: Now I want to play a Gestalt Druid/Kineticist...
Even if that doesn't work for KF, that's a great concept idea. You could literally be any of the elemental animal pokemon from the games. Wild Shape into a bird and shoot lighting to be zapdos. Become a flame horse and you're rapidash.
And since SLA doesn't have any special components, you should be able to do it while in form right out of the box.
EDIT: And then you can use this campaign idea to have all the players pick each of the 5 initial kineticist elements (aether being heart).
A velociraptor that charges forward with lightning covering it's body, a rhino with a ton of DR/adamantine...
An Octopus rocking a Composite Kinetic fist? That's a lot of d6 rolling around.
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Note that's two talents really needed to make Wild Growth worth it (one if you decide to just ping from a range with Greensight.) I mean sure, you could say the same thing for void (needing eyes of the void as well as its upgrade) but that's only saying void's thing isn't great either, although you can use it to break line of sight up to 20 ft high which is nice.I'm not altogether certain plant growth even does block line of sight.
That's odd, since before you said:
Using plant growth to make the battlefield basically impassible for everyone but you and your woodland stride is incredible! You can even block vision with it, allowing only you to see through all the plant matter.
I don't know if it can block line of sight either, perhaps that needs to be FAQ'd. I will concede about wild growth being non magical even though it had a duration despite being instantaneous...for some reason. But as mentioned, plant growth requires a lot of plants to make it as useful as it should be, as well as still hindering non woodsy partners.
I've never seen a need for magnetic infusion, and personally believe that people overvalue it (though it is quite strong).
That's a very long time being discount earth, who gets metal infusion which beats every composite that wood has thanks to Magnetic Infusion.
It's a party buff too, which means anyone not attacking with wood or something is also getting that +4, which makes it not only good for the kineticist, but for the party too, so I don't think it's overrated at all. I would say Earth 'goes off' at 7th level with things like this, and goes off harder than wood.
I would take AC bonuses over minor damage reduction any day of the week. I don't understand why people think the earth defense wild talent is so much better. It isn't.
Again, you're also discounting the VAST difference in power between flesh of earth and flesh of wood.
Pretty sure you're on the minority there. Scaling invulnerable rager level DR vs. non scaling natural armor isn't really much of a contest for me, and it seems I'm not alone in this. And if you want, you can max burn with this for even BETTER DR, as well as using 'Ragecycle cords' along with Bolstered Resistance for double that when needed, so when you have to have it, you could pop out DR 40 at endgame.
Let me even touch on something Mark mentioned in his comparison:
Alch with shield grants a +4 for 1 min/level.
Alch/druid/ranger/shaman/summoner/plant domain or defense subdomain cleric with [i]barkskin provides +2 to +5 natural armor bonus for 10/min a level.
It's a lot easier to get that bark bonus, making the defense less valuable to me, as well as being able to get it as a necklace slot which you can't do with DR. In this respect, a earth kineticist with a AONA +5 has more possible defenses than a wood kineticist with full natural armor. Sure, the wood kineticist is up some cash, but as discussed, they don't have a hell of a lot to do with it, so to me it's a moot point unless you can use that cash to bolster your defenses even higher considering the earth kineticist probably has enough cash to pick up a ring of deflection too (since as stated before, they don't need cash for much.)
I'd rather still have fire underwater (it requires a caster check), earth in a tundra (earth's just under some snow), water in a desert, or any other unfavorable situation since you can just pull the element from another plane, making it a null issue. Wood needs wood around to make most of its talents valid, as opposed to other elements which don't nearly as much.
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I tend to prefer them as well, but the more interesting thing is to compare to shroud of water:
Is the phytokineticist going to use a shield, though? The nice thing about Shroud of Water is that it provides a type of AC bonus that is inconvenient for the kineticist to get, between not having shield proficiency as a class feature and needing two hands free to gather power.
So the hydrokineticist gets:
1. A better baseline AC bonus from the talent without burn, since starts at 2 and scales up.
2. An equal or better max AC bonus, depending on level. Remembering the "+X" shield in your breakdown gives an X+2 shield bonus, I did the math and it's an equal max bonus at levels 5, 8, 9, and 17 and +1 for the hydro at all other levels.
3. The option to buy an additional magic item to get the other bonus type.
The hydrokineticist also spends less burn, which may or may not be a good thing depending on how important it is to you to max out your overflow at the start of the day and whether you have an alternate defense to pump up with the rest of your burn. (A hydro/geokineticist for example can max out their AC bonus and then put whatever's left to hit max overflow into DR, giving them a better overall defense than a phyto/geokineticist).
I tend to prefer them as well, but the more interesting thing is to compare to shroud of water:Is the phytokineticist going to use a shield, though? The nice thing about Shroud of Water is that it provides a type of AC bonus that is inconvenient for the kineticist to get, between not having shield proficiency as a class feature and needing two hands free to gather power.
So the hydrokineticist gets:
1. A better baseline AC bonus from the talent without burn, since starts at 2 and scales up.
2. An equal or better max AC bonus, depending on level. Remembering the "+X" shield in your breakdown gives an X+2 shield bonus, I did the math and it's an equal max bonus at levels 5, 8, 9, and 17 and +1 for the hydro at all other levels.
3. The option to buy an additional magic item to get the other bonus type.The hydrokineticist also spends less burn, which may or may not be a good thing depending on how important it is to you to max out your overflow at the start of the day and whether you have an alternate defense to pump up with the rest of your burn. (A hydro/geokineticist for example can max out their AC bonus and then put whatever's left to hit max overflow into DR, giving them a better overall defense than a phyto/geokineticist).
Agreed that it'll all depend on where your other possible burn sources are. It's quite dependent on your elemental setup, party setup, and what other sorts of items are around (since you also save the neck slot). Water/Aether, in particular, likes being able to spend more on aether's defense, as much as it can, whereas Water/Fire is in a tougher spot, since the build to punish natural attack enemies with fire has a heavy enough cost on its own that she probably didn't take Extra Defense to enable it. As to shield use, I expect the phyto will probably have a MW buckler at minimum to enhance. I've tended to see bucklers or spammed shield wands a fair amount out and about (the latter is more common in PFS where you can buy wands of a 1st level spell for prestige without using gold).
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It'll all depend on where your other possible burn sources are, indeed. It's quite dependent on your elemental setup. Water/Aether, in particular, likes being able to spend more on aether's defense, as much as it can, whereas Water/Fire is in a tougher spot, since the build to punish natural attack enemies with fire has a heavy enough cost on its own that she probably didn't take Extra Defense to enable it. As to shield use, I expect the phyto will probably have a MW buckler at minimum. I've tended to see bucklers or spammed shield wands a fair amount out and about (the latter is more common in PFS where you can buy wands of a 1st level spell for prestige without using gold).
Okay, so a MW Buckler doesn't stop a kineticist from gathering energy then? I believe that question was brought up earlier in the thread, so this helps make more sense of that.
Me myself, I use bucklers as a buff sponge first (throwing shadow/determined/slick/etc) onto it and AC second, so a hydro could just get it to +1 and start throwing buffs on it like that too.
Also I don't think I've ever seen someone use a wand of shield, it seems like very poor action economy to me to spend a standard action for a +4 to AC for a round, but then again, I don't play PFS, so I don't know how those people play. Is it really that common?
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It'll all depend on where your other possible burn sources are, indeed. It's quite dependent on your elemental setup. Water/Aether, in particular, likes being able to spend more on aether's defense, as much as it can, whereas Water/Fire is in a tougher spot, since the build to punish natural attack enemies with fire has a heavy enough cost on its own that she probably didn't take Extra Defense to enable it. As to shield use, I expect the phyto will probably have a MW buckler at minimum. I've tended to see bucklers or spammed shield wands a fair amount out and about (the latter is more common in PFS where you can buy wands of a 1st level spell for prestige without using gold).Okay, so a MW Buckler doesn't stop a kineticist from gathering energy then? I believe that question was brought up earlier in the thread, so this helps make more sense of that.
Me myself, I use bucklers as a buff sponge first (throwing shadow/determined/slick/etc) onto it and AC second, so a hydro could just get it to +1 and start throwing buffs on it like that too.
Also I don't think I've ever seen someone use a wand of shield, it seems like very poor action economy to me to spend a standard action for a +4 to AC for a round, but then again, I don't play PFS, so I don't know how those people play. Is it really that common?
I think you have some of the durations confused a bit (frex, barkskin is 10 min rather than hour and shield is minute rather than round EDIT: Looking up, you did have minutes in the previous post). If shield was round, wand of shield would be super stupid compared to total defense. The shield wand users tend to prebuff it rather than use it during a fight, which means that it isn't an always-on thing. I've done it myself in PFS and found that I was able to have the AC bonus in around 3/4 of fights without using it spuriously too often (never went through more than 1 wand and change in 11 levels of play with the characters that used 'em). That is, of course, variable on how good one is at predicting when to activate.
EDIT: @Bucklers and gathering, since they aren't in the hand, I can't see how they would stop you from gathering, though it's up to the GM whether gathering should make you lose the AC bonus for that round like most other times you use both hands for something.
QUESTION: Does the bonus from Elemental Overflow apply to attack and damage of Kinetic Fist, as KF does not have the wording Kinetic Blade or Whip has? This could be important for Natural Attack users.
P.S.: Now I want to play a Gestalt Druid/Kineticist...
Nevermind, pretty sure the following text from Fist(which I missed somehow) says no.
"This extra damage ignores spell resistance and doesn’t apply any modifiers to your kinetic blast’s damage, such as your Constitution modifier."
EDIT: The bonus to attack rolls though, and maybe Fire's Fury, still work.
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I think you have some of the durations confused a bit (frex, barkskin is 10 min rather than hour and shield is minute rather than round EDIT: Looking up, you did have minutes in the previous post). If shield was round, wand of shield would be super stupid compared to total defense. The shield wand users tend to prebuff it rather than use it during a fight, which means that it isn't an always-on thing.
EDIT: @Bucklers and gathering, since they aren't in the hand, I can't see how they would stop you from gathering, though it's up to the GM whether gathering should make you lose the AC bonus for that round like most other times you use both...
Yeah, I got the hour duration mixed up since I always think about it lasting for hours, that's on me. It's still enough to run most dungeons though if you're just hammering it. And the minute duration for a wand of shield means that it has to be used RIGHT before combat to be of value, making it pretty hard to use well. I just don't see it as that viable myself, so it feels odd that it's a common strategy.
I think the question was more about if you kept your bonus for it, since the hand is being used to do something else. I'd have voted 'no' myself, but part of that was to make shroud of water a better defense.
It'll all depend on where your other possible burn sources are, indeed. It's quite dependent on your elemental setup. Water/Aether, in particular, likes being able to spend more on aether's defense, as much as it can, whereas Water/Fire is in a tougher spot, since the build to punish natural attack enemies with fire has a heavy enough cost on its own that she probably didn't take Extra Defense to enable it. As to shield use, I expect the phyto will probably have a MW buckler at minimum. I've tended to see bucklers or spammed shield wands a fair amount out and about (the latter is more common in PFS where you can buy wands of a 1st level spell for prestige without using gold).Okay, so a MW Buckler doesn't stop a kineticist from gathering energy then? I believe that question was brought up earlier in the thread, so this helps make more sense of that.
Me myself, I use bucklers as a buff sponge first (throwing shadow/determined/slick/etc) onto it and AC second, so a hydro could just get it to +1 and start throwing buffs on it like that too.
Also I don't think I've ever seen someone use a wand of shield, it seems like very poor action economy to me to spend a standard action for a +4 to AC for a round, but then again, I don't play PFS, so I don't know how those people play. Is it really that common?
Wearing a buckler shouldn't keep you from gathering but using it would. You wouldn't be able to gather and gain the AC bonus.
As for wands of shield. I use them regularly as they don't require a hand to maintain. Use the wand right before expecting combat, free AC bonus for my 2h or TWF'er. The cost/effect is well beyond buying a magical buckler and the item lasts long past the levels where gold is a problem and I may want to replace it with something else.
50 charges is effectively 50 encounters. Even if you are terribly bad with your planning, +4 AC for 25 encounters is still extremely good for the 750 gp. It's been a common tactic in our group for years.
How would using the buckler stop you from Gathering, when the buckler isn't in your hand and said hand isn't being used for anything the Buckler itself says denies the shield bonus?
I think you have some of the durations confused a bit (frex, barkskin is 10 min rather than hour and shield is minute rather than round EDIT: Looking up, you did have minutes in the previous post). If shield was round, wand of shield would be super stupid compared to total defense. The shield wand users tend to prebuff it rather than use it during a fight, which means that it isn't an always-on thing.
EDIT: @Bucklers and gathering, since they aren't in the hand, I can't see how they would stop you from gathering, though it's up to the GM whether gathering should make you lose the AC bonus for that round like most other times you use both...
Yeah, I got the hour duration mixed up since I always think about it lasting for hours, that's on me. It's still enough to run most dungeons though if you're just hammering it. And the minute duration for a wand of shield means that it has to be used RIGHT before combat to be of value, making it pretty hard to use well.
I think the question was more about if you kept your bonus for it, since the hand is being used to do something else. I'd have voted 'no' myself, but part of that was to make shroud of water a better defense.
Yep, the barkskin duration being off wasn't really relevant to your point at all, so I didn't mention it until the shield duration one popped up too.
From playing an alchemist, my 2nd level slots are too valuable (due to alch alloc) to keep a whole party barkskinned with them, and if you have a druid, you probably either don't want a wood character (due to being too similar) or you're in a super woodsy theme game in which case phyto is happiest.
As to the shield wand thing, I edited a bit to mention personal experience on it, and it looks like Skylancer has had similar results. I'm personally with you on bucklers and gathering, but that still doesn't stop them from being good buff dumps anyways, as you mentioned. I know not everyone does it, but I also like putting those random enchants on bucklers. Typically I'll have like a +1 <various things> buckler and a wand of shield (still worth it for the extra +2 to +4 depending on what I do).
Mark, would Fire's Fury add the bonus to attack rolls from Elemental Overflow to Kinetic Blade/Whip/Fist's damage?
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Mark, would Fire's Fury add the bonus to attack rolls from Elemental Overflow to Kinetic Blade/Whip/Fist's damage?
You would add fire's fury damage bonus on blade and whip but not fist, since fist doesn't add any additional modifiers.
That seems like an unusual thing, but not a big deal. At least you still get the attack bonus, since you are still using your blast.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure that's the case. Kinetic Fist says the damage doesn't apply the modifiers, but nothing about Fire's Fury not adding modifiers. I might just be splitting hairs though.
Mark, can Haste and Rapid Shot stack onto each other, for a full attack?
Just in case you aren't trolling.
Yes, you can use Haste and Rapid Shot together.
That seems like an unusual thing, but not a big deal. At least you still get the attack bonus, since you are still using your blast.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure that's the case. Kinetic Fist says the damage doesn't apply the modifiers, but nothing about Fire's Fury not adding modifiers. I might just be splitting hairs though.
You already get elemental overflow bonuses on attack rolls with blade and whip, even without fire's fury.
You already get elemental overflow bonuses on attack rolls with blade and whip, even without fire's fury.That seems like an unusual thing, but not a big deal. At least you still get the attack bonus, since you are still using your blast.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure that's the case. Kinetic Fist says the damage doesn't apply the modifiers, but nothing about Fire's Fury not adding modifiers. I might just be splitting hairs though.
I meant Fire's Fury for the damage, since it wouldn't be Kinetic Fist's damage adding the modifier.
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Wait, this isn't the Mark AMA...
You know, sometimes I forget that too.
Fire's fury does help make up for the damage dip for KB, which makes it all the better as a melee element, which is aces to me. I think Fire's one of the more fun elements balancing additional damage with energy only attacks and the resistances faced by it.
Wait, this isn't the Mark AMA...You know, sometimes I forget that too.
Fire's fury does help make up for the damage dip for KB, which makes it all the better as a melee element, which is aces to me. I think Fire's one of the more fun elements balancing additional damage with energy only attacks and the resistances faced by it.
Any chance you could direct me to it? I don't do forums very well.
E: Also, love your build posts. I made a Bolt Ace according to what you suggested. If I get a definitive answer here, I'll be cranking out the most damage for the team for a while.
Direct you to what exactly, both Kinetic Blade and Fire's Fury are in the PRD and/or D20pfsrd under class abilities.
Wait, this isn't the Mark AMA...You know, sometimes I forget that too.
Fire's fury does help make up for the damage dip for KB, which makes it all the better as a melee element, which is aces to me. I think Fire's one of the more fun elements balancing additional damage with energy only attacks and the resistances faced by it.
Any chance you could direct me to it? I don't do forums very well.
E: Also, love your build posts. I made a Bolt Ace according to what you suggested. If I get a definitive answer here, I'll be cranking out the most damage for the team for a while.
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Also for those of you interested, I have an AMA thread here as well in case you want to ask anything somehow more off topic than we already get on my guides.
That seems like an unusual thing, but not a big deal. At least you still get the attack bonus, since you are still using your blast.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure that's the case. Kinetic Fist says the damage doesn't apply the modifiers, but nothing about Fire's Fury not adding modifiers. I might just be splitting hairs though.
Are you asking if Fire's Fury adds to kinetic blade/whip/fist attack rolls? Fire's Fury gives a damage bonus, which Kinetic Fist specifically says no modifiers to damage are added.