Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist


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Protoman wrote:
Are you asking if Fire's Fury adds to kinetic blade/whip/fist attack rolls? Fire's Fury gives a damage bonus, which Kinetic Fist specifically says no modifiers to damage are added.

Kinetic Fist has this line: "This extra damage ignores spell resistance and doesn’t apply any modifiers to your kinetic blast’s damage, such as your Constitution modifier."

This extra damage. Fire's Fury is separate, so should still work. Kinetic Fist is only talking about damage from Kinetic Fist.


Kinetic fist gives d6 extra element damage to unarmed/natural attacks.
That extra damage doesn't include modifiers to kinetic blast damage, such as Con modifier.

Fire's Fury wrote:
When using fire blasts or composite blasts that include fire, add your elemental overflow bonus to the damage dealt. If the kinetic blast normally adds double your elemental overflow bonus to damage, these effects stack.

Fire's fury adds a damage modifier to a blast.

Kinetic fist's d6s of damage doesn't add damage modifiers that apply to a blast.


So heres something that hasn't come up yet i think, if you apply an composite infusion like aetheric or gravitic does it make a simple blast into a composite? Or is it simply a basic with a fancy infusion?

Designer

Hazrond wrote:
So heres something that hasn't come up yet i think, if you apply an composite infusion like aetheric or gravitic does it make a simple blast into a composite? Or is it simply a basic with a fancy infusion?

Aetheric boost and gravitic boosts are not infusions; they're composite blasts. They don't prevent you from using either of the types of infusion on that blast.

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Can a Kineticist TK Haul something on which creatures stand to effectively fly/show them the world?


Petty Alchemy wrote:
Can a Kineticist TK Haul something on which creatures stand to effectively fly/show them the world?

I'd imagine so, as long as the combined weight of said creature and object don't beat their total lift capacity.


First off, great guide N.Jolly!

I've been reading for awhile and while I might have seen it, I have forgotten if it has been brought up before in this thread. It has to do with Spells and Spell-Like Abilities (yes, I know, I should be put out to pasture and flogged with a dead horse).

Scenario:
Gnome Pyrokineticist with the Pyromaniac alternate racial trait.

Gnome racial Pyromaniac wrote:
Gnomes with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the fire descriptor, using granted powers of the Fire domain, using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline or the revelations of the oracle's flame mystery, and determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage (this ability does not give gnomes early access to level-based powers; it only affects the powers they could use without this ability). Gnomes with Charisma scores of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, flare, prestidigitation, produce flame. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level; the DCs are Charisma-based. This racial trait replaces gnome magic and illusion resistance.

So anything (including the kitchen sink by the way they wrote it, but I'll not get into RAW and RAI) with the (Fire) descriptor gets a CL bonus. I would assume this CL bonus to include the Produce Flame SLA they also get.

Wild Talents wrote:
... A wild talent always has the elemental descriptor or descriptors (aether, air, earth, fire or water) matching its element entry ...

We know Kineticists have Caster Levels since they have to bypass SR. Wild Talents have elemental descriptors appropriate to their element. So a Fire Blast has the Fire descriptor if you chose Fire as your Primary Element at level 1 (or secondary/tertiary at 7/15).

Aside from getting a +1 bonus to bypassing SR, said pyromaniac gnome also gets upgraded damage a level earlier (at kineticist level 2, his Fire Blast is considered to be level 3 and thus gains 1d6 damage). Note that this doesn't help him gain infusions or other abilities sooner.

Am I correct in interpreting this? Because this helps out gnomes wanting to go Pyrokineticist and also Dwarves who want to go Geokineticist (Stonesinging and Earth) and might make those races more popular.


I just noticed, in the guide a lot of the elements have Negative Admixture and Gravitic Boost when those elements can't get them. Most elements only have a physical or energy blast, precluding them from one of the two. I feel like the guide could be a bit clearer here.

I would also have Negative Admixture as green for Aether. Cause, it's, ya know, not Aether's other blasts...

Falxu wrote:
So anything (including the kitchen sink by the way they wrote it, but I'll not get into RAW and RAI) with the (Fire) descriptor gets a CL bonus. I would assume this CL bonus to include the Produce Flame SLA they also get.

That's where you went wrong.

No, they don't get everything. Spell-Like Abilities, RaW, are not Spells. Recently this came down hard on evading the entry requirements on PrCs. And even if you got +1 CL I wouldn't agree with the interpretation you got blast damage earlier.


The Mortonator wrote:

That's where you went wrong.

No, they don't get everything. Spell-Like Abilities, RaW, are not Spells. Recently this came down hard on evading the entry requirements on PrCs. And even if you got +1 CL I wouldn't agree with the interpretation you got blast damage earlier.

But SLA is specifically called out in the trait: ...using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline... That is an SLA, stated so in its own description.

Also: ...determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage... This one says that the increase in level increases the damage of an SLA.

Is this not how the trait is written?

Designer

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Falxu wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:

That's where you went wrong.

No, they don't get everything. Spell-Like Abilities, RaW, are not Spells. Recently this came down hard on evading the entry requirements on PrCs. And even if you got +1 CL I wouldn't agree with the interpretation you got blast damage earlier.

But SLA is specifically called out in the trait: ...using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline... That is an SLA, stated so in its own description.

Also: ...determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage... This one says that the increase in level increases the damage of an SLA.

Is this not how the trait is written?

The fact that the racial trait also named several other spell-like and supernatural abilities by name is because the spells bit doesn't catch those. By the rules, since they weren't in that list, pyrokinetic abilities wouldn't apply it, though it certainly isn't a weird houserule to allow it to apply, given it's mostly down to which was released first, I imagine. If you choose to apply it, you'd have to decide whether it raises effective caster level (like most of the list for pyromaniac) or entire effective class level (like alchemist bombs). Personally, if you do go with the houserule, I'd strongly suggest the former rather than the latter. The latter is much more powerful, which is a good thing for gnome alchemists since gnomes have flavor that says they make good alchemists but have non-great alchemist bomber stats (no Dex or Int), whereas gnomes have solid pyrokineticist stats already. This would give better chance to beat SR, better chance to counter/dispel and to not be countered or dispelled, longer durations on your smoke cloud, etc.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Hazrond wrote:
So heres something that hasn't come up yet i think, if you apply an composite infusion like aetheric or gravitic does it make a simple blast into a composite? Or is it simply a basic with a fancy infusion?
Aetheric boost and gravitic boosts are not infusions; they're composite blasts. They don't prevent you from using either of the types of infusion on that blast.

yeah, i can see how that sounded confusing

Basically, what im asking is if, say, i play an Aetherkineticist who expands into Void, taking gravity blast when taking say, TK Blast and adding Gravitic Boost, does it deal damage as a composite blast or no? and since you have both Gravitic Boost and Aetheric Boost can you apply both to the TK Blast? Or is it considered composite and therefore you have to wait till 15?


it's a composite and you have to wait.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Hazrond wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Hazrond wrote:
So heres something that hasn't come up yet i think, if you apply an composite infusion like aetheric or gravitic does it make a simple blast into a composite? Or is it simply a basic with a fancy infusion?
Aetheric boost and gravitic boosts are not infusions; they're composite blasts. They don't prevent you from using either of the types of infusion on that blast.

yeah, i can see how that sounded confusing

Basically, what im asking is if, say, i play an Aetherkineticist who expands into Void, taking gravity blast when taking say, TK Blast and adding Gravitic Boost, does it deal damage as a composite blast or no? and since you have both Gravitic Boost and Aetheric Boost can you apply both to the TK Blast? Or is it considered composite and therefore you have to wait till 15?

You can add one to your blast.

You can do an Aetheric Telekinetic Blast, an Aetheric Gravity Blast, a Gravitic Telekinetic Blast, or a Gravitic Gravity Blast.

All of those would do damage as a simple blast boosted with those abilities.

At level 15, you could combine them.


Mark Seifter wrote:
The fact that the racial trait also named several other spell-like and supernatural abilities by name is because the spells bit doesn't catch those. By the rules, since they weren't in that list, pyrokinetic abilities wouldn't apply it, though it certainly isn't a weird houserule to allow it to apply, given it's mostly down to which was released first, I imagine.

Ya, I would probably house-rule myself that and similar Genie-kin and other affinities offer +1 CL or treating your Con as 2 points higher. There's no reason not to and I would place odds that one will show up in first party materials eventually.

Silver Crusade

The Mortonator wrote:
I just noticed, in the guide a lot of the elements have Negative Admixture and Gravitic Boost when those elements can't get them. Most elements only have a physical or energy blast, precluding them from one of the two. I feel like the guide could be a bit clearer here.

I actually debated in my head to include it in everything, since you could get it through going 3x elemental with all of them, but I guess I should only include it in elements that can get the composite itself.


The Mortonator wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The fact that the racial trait also named several other spell-like and supernatural abilities by name is because the spells bit doesn't catch those. By the rules, since they weren't in that list, pyrokinetic abilities wouldn't apply it, though it certainly isn't a weird houserule to allow it to apply, given it's mostly down to which was released first, I imagine.
Ya, I would probably house-rule myself that and similar Genie-kin and other affinities offer +1 CL or treating your Con as 2 points higher. There's no reason not to and I would place odds that one will show up in first party materials eventually.

Given we've gotten the source book with the class and a follow up. I'd be curious how much more kineticist material you expect to see in the near future?


Skylancer4 wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The fact that the racial trait also named several other spell-like and supernatural abilities by name is because the spells bit doesn't catch those. By the rules, since they weren't in that list, pyrokinetic abilities wouldn't apply it, though it certainly isn't a weird houserule to allow it to apply, given it's mostly down to which was released first, I imagine.
Ya, I would probably house-rule myself that and similar Genie-kin and other affinities offer +1 CL or treating your Con as 2 points higher. There's no reason not to and I would place odds that one will show up in first party materials eventually.
Given we've gotten the source book with the class and a follow up. I'd be curious how much more kineticist material you expect to see in the near future?

I, have no idea! Truth be told, I have only recently followed things closely because of GM duties + Kineticist love. The class has gotten me more excited for d20 than ever.

My guess was mostly based on the idea that at some point someone would be writing racial traits and go, "Oh ya, we need to do that." and just sorta slip it in. I sincerely doubt it will be in a kineticist oriented book.

N. Jolly wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
I just noticed, in the guide a lot of the elements have Negative Admixture and Gravitic Boost when those elements can't get them. Most elements only have a physical or energy blast, precluding them from one of the two. I feel like the guide could be a bit clearer here.
I actually debated in my head to include it in everything, since you could get it through going 3x elemental with all of them, but I guess I should only include it in elements that can get the composite itself.

I personally believe it helps to have a more personalized approach. As I stated, I see Negative Admixture as being a lot better for Aether than I do for Fire.

Also, theoretically, you can get any composite if you go with 3x elemental. *shrug*

Silver Crusade

The Mortonator wrote:

I personally believe it helps to have a more personalized approach. As I stated, I see Negative Admixture as being a lot better for Aether than I do for Fire.

What do you mean here, negative admixture can't be used with aether since aether doesn't have an energy blast. Do you mean Gravitic boost? I mean I guess it's better for aether than going aether at 7th too, but not by enough for me to really care that much.


So d20pfsrd.com got the rules up for phyto and chao, mostly. They seem to have forgotten basic phytokinesis. Can anyone clarify that ability for me?

I like the way they both work. While I see why people think wood outside the forest is a problem, I think if you pair it well with either a campaign where you have a good time spent in your area or an ally who can produce plant matter in an area (druid, maybe a cleric?) Or items such as handfuls of seeds and feather tokens of trees.
That's a lot of ways to handle making the element viable, and I think the at will shape wood is more useful than many would guess. You can shape most basic tools to attempt any check, and even parts of your crafted item.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Shiroi wrote:

So d20pfsrd.com got the rules up for phyto and chao, mostly. They seem to have forgotten basic phytokinesis. Can anyone clarify that ability for me?

I like the way they both work. While I see why people think wood outside the forest is a problem, I think if you pair it well with either a campaign where you have a good time spent in your area or an ally who can produce plant matter in an area (druid, maybe a cleric?) Or items such as handfuls of seeds and feather tokens of trees.
That's a lot of ways to handle making the element viable, and I think the at will shape wood is more useful than many would guess. You can shape most basic tools to attempt any check, and even parts of your crafted item.

Basic Phytpkinesis was omitted from the book itself by mistake, and doesn't really exist at the moment. Until they release the ability officially, Mark has said to just have the ability allow for the magical pruning of plants without any tools, and to act as the sift cantrip when searching through foliage.

Silver Crusade

Shiroi wrote:

So d20pfsrd.com got the rules up for phyto and chao, mostly. They seem to have forgotten basic phytokinesis. Can anyone clarify that ability for me?

I like the way they both work. While I see why people think wood outside the forest is a problem, I think if you pair it well with either a campaign where you have a good time spent in your area or an ally who can produce plant matter in an area (druid, maybe a cleric?) Or items such as handfuls of seeds and feather tokens of trees.
That's a lot of ways to handle making the element viable, and I think the at will shape wood is more useful than many would guess. You can shape most basic tools to attempt any check, and even parts of your crafted item.

The basic phyto section in the guide has a link to Mark's post about what it should be.

As per Wood's rating, I'm not sure if it's obvious, but in my guides I like to keep them as internal as possible, meaning ratings are independent of other classes, so this class isn't rated against any other class. And in that way, class features are rated the same way unless a comparison is needed (assume a smite that lacked alignment vs. paladin's smite, the two would have to be compared.)

In this way, against every other element, wood falls short. No other element is as dependent on its chosen material being in close proximity (water comes close but has plenty of other things that are independent, and earth is also close but earth is almost everywhere), meaning that no other class is as tethered to one environment as wood. Requiring external sources to make an element work subjectively makes it worse than other elements which don't have such requirements.

I bounced between orange and red for it, but after looking over my choices, there was more red than orange and green in the options, so I had to go with my gut, and my gut doesn't like wood. I could probably put that it's orange/green in a heavy forest game (they'd be REALLY cool in Kingmaker, like it's the one game I'd LOVE to run one in), but in a game in which the environment can't be expected to be forest at least 50% of the game, it's red.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

N. Jolly, you seem to be indicating that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Am I understanding you correctly? If so, where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

(I do recognize, that a lot of wood utility powers target plants, thus necessitating that there actually be plants around, but you appeared to be speaking pretty generally to me.)

Designer

Ravingdork wrote:
N. Jolly, you seem to indicate that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

I think he means that certain utilities are better near your element. So in a water campaign, especially with boats, water manipulator is actually kind of godlike when you first get it (I've seen it in Skull and Shackles), but it's useless in a desert, even though your blast works. Similarly, earth glide is not very useful if you're fighting in the air or underwater (but not on the ocean bed) all the time, even though earth blast still works fine.

I would say that there are plants in plenty of terrains other than forests, but he's certainly right that if you're consistently located somewhere with no plants, wood is going to require you to get more creative to use your utilities.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
N. Jolly, you seem to indicate that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

I think he means that certain utilities are better near your element. So in a water campaign, especially with boats, water manipulator is actually kind of godlike when you first get it (I've seen it in Skull and Shackles), but it's useless in a desert, even though your blast works. Similarly, earth glide is not very useful if you're fighting in the air or underwater (but not on the ocean bed) all the time, even though earth blast still works fine.

I would say that there are plants in plenty of terrains other than forests, but he's certainly right that if you're consistently located somewhere with no plants, wood is going to require you to get more creative to use your utilities.

Like bringing your own plants along on your adventures? :P

"Beware my dragon topiary!" :D

Designer

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Ravingdork wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
N. Jolly, you seem to indicate that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

I think he means that certain utilities are better near your element. So in a water campaign, especially with boats, water manipulator is actually kind of godlike when you first get it (I've seen it in Skull and Shackles), but it's useless in a desert, even though your blast works. Similarly, earth glide is not very useful if you're fighting in the air or underwater (but not on the ocean bed) all the time, even though earth blast still works fine.

I would say that there are plants in plenty of terrains other than forests, but he's certainly right that if you're consistently located somewhere with no plants, wood is going to require you to get more creative to use your utilities.

Like bringing your own plants along on your adventures? :P

Yep. In addition to significantly enhancing an entire agrarian economy, plant growth is a pretty powerful crowd control to have at-will, as long as you bring the plants. No saving throw or SR for "The plants entwine to form a thicket or jungle that creatures must hack or force a way through. Speed drops to 5 feet, or 10 feet for Large or larger creatures." is really a dramatic decrease in speed, particularly for fast creatures.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
N. Jolly, you seem to indicate that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

I think he means that certain utilities are better near your element. So in a water campaign, especially with boats, water manipulator is actually kind of godlike when you first get it (I've seen it in Skull and Shackles), but it's useless in a desert, even though your blast works. Similarly, earth glide is not very useful if you're fighting in the air or underwater (but not on the ocean bed) all the time, even though earth blast still works fine.

I would say that there are plants in plenty of terrains other than forests, but he's certainly right that if you're consistently located somewhere with no plants, wood is going to require you to get more creative to use your utilities.

Like bringing your own plants along on your adventures? :P
Yep. In addition to significantly enhancing an entire agrarian economy, plant growth is a pretty powerful crowd control to have at-will, as long as you bring the plants. No saving throw or SR for "The plants entwine to form a thicket or jungle that creatures must hack or force a way through. Speed drops to 5 feet, or 10 feet for Large or larger creatures." is really a dramatic decrease in speed, particularly for fast creatures.

Hey mark, you didn't answer my question, do Aetheric and Gravitic boost make a simple blast into a composite, therefore increasing the damage dice?

Designer

Hazrond wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
N. Jolly, you seem to indicate that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

I think he means that certain utilities are better near your element. So in a water campaign, especially with boats, water manipulator is actually kind of godlike when you first get it (I've seen it in Skull and Shackles), but it's useless in a desert, even though your blast works. Similarly, earth glide is not very useful if you're fighting in the air or underwater (but not on the ocean bed) all the time, even though earth blast still works fine.

I would say that there are plants in plenty of terrains other than forests, but he's certainly right that if you're consistently located somewhere with no plants, wood is going to require you to get more creative to use your utilities.

Like bringing your own plants along on your adventures? :P
Yep. In addition to significantly enhancing an entire agrarian economy, plant growth is a pretty powerful crowd control to have at-will, as long as you bring the plants. No saving throw or SR for "The plants entwine to form a thicket or jungle that creatures must hack or force a way through. Speed drops to 5 feet, or 10 feet for Large or larger creatures." is really a dramatic decrease in speed, particularly for fast creatures.
Hey mark, you didn't answer my question, do Aetheric and Gravitic boost make a simple blast into a composite, therefore increasing the damage dice?

They do what it says in their entries. Damage is listed as "see text," and then the text says that they add 1 or increase to d8 but otherwise work as the simple blast; this includes damage.


So Ive been keeping my eye on this thread for a while now, and I want to ask what I hope is a simple question. A part of me really wants to play an Elemental Annihilator (though I am sad I cannot use Fire as I'd love to just melt enemies into slag, ignoring that resistances and immunity are very common). My question is, does the Elemental Annihilator really take all that much burn? From what I'm reading, they cant use utility talents, so they're not spending burn on any of those. Elemental Overflow may not add bonus to the damage, but it provides a to hit bonus and a few other bonuses, so they're using burn for that, and while Flurry of Devastation costs 1 burn to use, they get Infusion Specialization the level before that, which I believe would reduce the burn of the Flurry. Is there other uses for burn Im not thinking of? The defensive talents?

Im mostly just trying to figure this archetype out, as Ive always wanted a class that can deal steady damage all day (yes, I've always wanted something similar to the 3.5 warlock). However, while the Kineticist looks really fun, I am still having the hardest time wrapping my mind around certain features of it. Especially the Annihilator, which seems to be a lot simpler than a normal Kineticist. As far as I can tell, the only need an Annihilator has for things like composite blasts is if it does one of its normal blasts, not if it uses Devastating Infusion, correct?

Designer

DHAnubis wrote:

So Ive been keeping my eye on this thread for a while now, and I want to ask what I hope is a simple question. A part of me really wants to play an Elemental Annihilator (though I am sad I cannot use Fire as I'd love to just melt enemies into slag, ignoring that resistances and immunity are very common). My question is, does the Elemental Annihilator really take all that much burn? From what I'm reading, they cant use utility talents, so they're not spending burn on any of those. Elemental Overflow may not add bonus to the damage, but it provides a to hit bonus and a few other bonuses, so they're using burn for that, and while Flurry of Devastation costs 1 burn to use, they get Infusion Specialization the level before that, which I believe would reduce the burn of the Flurry. Is there other uses for burn Im not thinking of? The defensive talents?

Im mostly just trying to figure this archetype out, as Ive always wanted a class that can deal steady damage all day (yes, I've always wanted something similar to the 3.5 warlock). However, while the Kineticist looks really fun, I am still having the hardest time wrapping my mind around certain features of it. Especially the Annihilator, which seems to be a lot simpler than a normal Kineticist. As far as I can tell, the only need an Annihilator has for things like composite blasts is if it does one of its normal blasts, not if it uses Devastating Infusion, correct?

The annihilator will probably use burn on defense wild talents or on composite/infusion options on some other form infusion, as you predicted. Other than that, flurry of devastation lots and lots.


Mark Seifter wrote:
DHAnubis wrote:

So Ive been keeping my eye on this thread for a while now, and I want to ask what I hope is a simple question. A part of me really wants to play an Elemental Annihilator (though I am sad I cannot use Fire as I'd love to just melt enemies into slag, ignoring that resistances and immunity are very common). My question is, does the Elemental Annihilator really take all that much burn? From what I'm reading, they cant use utility talents, so they're not spending burn on any of those. Elemental Overflow may not add bonus to the damage, but it provides a to hit bonus and a few other bonuses, so they're using burn for that, and while Flurry of Devastation costs 1 burn to use, they get Infusion Specialization the level before that, which I believe would reduce the burn of the Flurry. Is there other uses for burn Im not thinking of? The defensive talents?

Im mostly just trying to figure this archetype out, as Ive always wanted a class that can deal steady damage all day (yes, I've always wanted something similar to the 3.5 warlock). However, while the Kineticist looks really fun, I am still having the hardest time wrapping my mind around certain features of it. Especially the Annihilator, which seems to be a lot simpler than a normal Kineticist. As far as I can tell, the only need an Annihilator has for things like composite blasts is if it does one of its normal blasts, not if it uses Devastating Infusion, correct?

The annihilator will probably use burn on defense wild talents or on composite/infusion options on some other form infusion, as you predicted. Other than that, flurry of devastation lots and lots.

Okay, good to know I have that basically down correctly. I was not sure if the Annihilator even could use a non- Devastating blast for a while, as the way it was worded made me think that it lost that blast.

I guess my other question would be, assuming a GM was okay with letting the Annihilator use energy blasts, like Fire, what changes would need to be made? Half Con instead of full Con like physical blasts get? No more Deadly Aim, either. Anything else you'd change?

Designer

DHAnubis wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
DHAnubis wrote:

So Ive been keeping my eye on this thread for a while now, and I want to ask what I hope is a simple question. A part of me really wants to play an Elemental Annihilator (though I am sad I cannot use Fire as I'd love to just melt enemies into slag, ignoring that resistances and immunity are very common). My question is, does the Elemental Annihilator really take all that much burn? From what I'm reading, they cant use utility talents, so they're not spending burn on any of those. Elemental Overflow may not add bonus to the damage, but it provides a to hit bonus and a few other bonuses, so they're using burn for that, and while Flurry of Devastation costs 1 burn to use, they get Infusion Specialization the level before that, which I believe would reduce the burn of the Flurry. Is there other uses for burn Im not thinking of? The defensive talents?

Im mostly just trying to figure this archetype out, as Ive always wanted a class that can deal steady damage all day (yes, I've always wanted something similar to the 3.5 warlock). However, while the Kineticist looks really fun, I am still having the hardest time wrapping my mind around certain features of it. Especially the Annihilator, which seems to be a lot simpler than a normal Kineticist. As far as I can tell, the only need an Annihilator has for things like composite blasts is if it does one of its normal blasts, not if it uses Devastating Infusion, correct?

The annihilator will probably use burn on defense wild talents or on composite/infusion options on some other form infusion, as you predicted. Other than that, flurry of devastation lots and lots.

Okay, good to know I have that basically down correctly. I was not sure if the Annihilator even could use a non- Devastating blast for a while, as the way it was worded made me think that it lost that blast.

I guess my other question would be, assuming a GM was okay with letting the Annihilator use energy blasts, like Fire, what changes...

I think Rynjin may have had the best idea for that with his electric annihilator, which is to have it go against full AC and count as physical, just with the appropriate damage type (in this case fire damage). That way you don't have to mess with any of the other assumptions (as you might expect, the way that touch AC math is broken in Pathfinder in general wreaks havoc with the math otherwise; I posted another solution some time back, but it required a lot more adjustment).

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
N. Jolly, you seem to indicate that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

I think he means that certain utilities are better near your element. So in a water campaign, especially with boats, water manipulator is actually kind of godlike when you first get it (I've seen it in Skull and Shackles), but it's useless in a desert, even though your blast works. Similarly, earth glide is not very useful if you're fighting in the air or underwater (but not on the ocean bed) all the time, even though earth blast still works fine.

I would say that there are plants in plenty of terrains other than forests, but he's certainly right that if you're consistently located somewhere with no plants, wood is going to require you to get more creative to use your utilities.

Mark's got it right here, I'm talking about the utilities. I know that the kineticist just pulls their element from the ether, but the utilities for wood rely on the environment more than any other, and compared to the other elements that don't, it's a major hindrance.


That is more or less the other idea I had, though the idea of fire dealing physical damage is mildly odd to me. Thanks, been a great help!

Designer

DHAnubis wrote:
That is more or less the other idea I had, though the idea of fire dealing physical damage is mildly odd to me. Thanks, been a great help!

Yeah, it's a little weird but mechanically solid. The weirdness is one reason it isn't part of the official archetype, but it's still an easier mod to add for that concept.

Designer

N. Jolly wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
N. Jolly, you seem to indicate that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

I think he means that certain utilities are better near your element. So in a water campaign, especially with boats, water manipulator is actually kind of godlike when you first get it (I've seen it in Skull and Shackles), but it's useless in a desert, even though your blast works. Similarly, earth glide is not very useful if you're fighting in the air or underwater (but not on the ocean bed) all the time, even though earth blast still works fine.

I would say that there are plants in plenty of terrains other than forests, but he's certainly right that if you're consistently located somewhere with no plants, wood is going to require you to get more creative to use your utilities.

Mark's got it right here, I'm talking about the utilities. I know that the kineticist just pulls their element from the ether, but the utilities for wood rely on the environment more than any other, and compared to the other elements that don't, it's a major hindrance.

Yup. One of the big differences is that water has enough pages of talents that it can cover all the big must-have water-associated ones while also having plenty of space for more, as compared to wood, which is why wood (and void) would benefit from a few more pages somewhere down the line. However, having played with a group that for whatever reason has tended to have druids (including in a city Adventure Path, interestingly) I would say that the number of non-forest situations that have explicit plants around is higher than it might seem a priori (it's kind of something you don't pay attention to unless someone is looking for them). Still, though, I agree that there are certainly plenty of situations without them too.

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:
Yup. One of the big differences is that water has enough pages of talents that it can cover all the big must-have water-associated ones while also having plenty of space for more, as compared to wood, which is why wood (and void) would benefit from a few more pages somewhere down the line. However, having played with a group that for whatever reason has tended to have druids (including in a city Adventure Path, interestingly) I would say that the number of non-forest situations that have explicit plants around is higher than it might seem a priori (it's kind of something you don't pay attention to unless someone is looking for them). Still, though, I agree that there are certainly plenty of situations without them too.

I can easily agree there, I stated earlier in the thread that I was certain part of the issue with the new elements was the restricted page count. It's why I was looking forward to seeing more void since it felt like we had 'just enough' to make it viable. Wood didn't inspire me as much, but if we get more of it later and it help expands on things, I'd obviously alter the rating.

Personally I could see having plants in more than just the situation of a forest (I wouldn't even consider it fiat, just natural growth), but there's enough situations where a lot of these abilities are limited to keep them in orange territory for me, which as I've said, is situational but good.

As asked before, is there any immediate plans for more kineticist crunch, possibly in Occult Realms? Or is it on the shelf now so to speak?


N. Jolly wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:

I personally believe it helps to have a more personalized approach. As I stated, I see Negative Admixture as being a lot better for Aether than I do for Fire.

What do you mean here, negative admixture can't be used with aether since aether doesn't have an energy blast. Do you mean Gravitic boost? I mean I guess it's better for aether than going aether at 7th too, but not by enough for me to really care that much.

Wow, your guide formatting actually confused me. XD *shoots self in head* I thought that it was energy from that.

Designer

N. Jolly wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Yup. One of the big differences is that water has enough pages of talents that it can cover all the big must-have water-associated ones while also having plenty of space for more, as compared to wood, which is why wood (and void) would benefit from a few more pages somewhere down the line. However, having played with a group that for whatever reason has tended to have druids (including in a city Adventure Path, interestingly) I would say that the number of non-forest situations that have explicit plants around is higher than it might seem a priori (it's kind of something you don't pay attention to unless someone is looking for them). Still, though, I agree that there are certainly plenty of situations without them too.

I can easily agree there, I stated earlier in the thread that I was certain part of the issue with the new elements was the restricted page count. It's why I was looking forward to seeing more void since it felt like we had 'just enough' to make it viable. Wood didn't inspire me as much, but if we get more of it later and it help expands on things, I'd obviously alter the rating.

Personally I could see having plants in more than just the situation of a forest (I wouldn't even consider it fiat, just natural growth), but there's enough situations where a lot of these abilities are limited to keep them in orange territory for me, which as I've said, is situational but good.

As asked before, is there any immediate plans for more kineticist crunch, possibly in Occult Realms? Or is it on the shelf now so to speak?

As part of my job, I'm only involved in content for the RPG line (it may seem otherwise, but that's because I accepted freelancer gigs from the other teams for Origins and Realms, which is separate from work). I certainly hope to continue to put new kineticist stuff in those books as it is appropriate.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
N. Jolly, you seem to indicate that a kineticist needs to be near their element to use their powers. Where is the rule that states this? It's my understanding that a kineticist could conjure up their elements even if there wasn't any in the local proximity.

I think he means that certain utilities are better near your element. So in a water campaign, especially with boats, water manipulator is actually kind of godlike when you first get it (I've seen it in Skull and Shackles), but it's useless in a desert, even though your blast works. Similarly, earth glide is not very useful if you're fighting in the air or underwater (but not on the ocean bed) all the time, even though earth blast still works fine.

I would say that there are plants in plenty of terrains other than forests, but he's certainly right that if you're consistently located somewhere with no plants, wood is going to require you to get more creative to use your utilities.

Like bringing your own plants along on your adventures? :P
Yep. In addition to significantly enhancing an entire agrarian economy, plant growth is a pretty powerful crowd control to have at-will, as long as you bring the plants. No saving throw or SR for "The plants entwine to form a thicket or jungle that creatures must hack or force a way through. Speed drops to 5 feet, or 10 feet for Large or larger creatures." is really a dramatic decrease in speed, particularly for fast creatures.

So could I have my sprig grow to fill the area of plant growth?

If I had quickened blast, could I conjure up wood with wood blast, then cast plant growth upon it?


Also of note for possible plant growth is handfulls of seed, and feather token trees.

I particularly like the idea of a phyto using feather token trees and shape wood to make his own permanent dwellings all over. Make a tree, carve a hole big enough to comfortably sleep in, shape the opening back closed. Open a small gap somewhere up high for air, or use a bottle of air or something.


Unchained has a reusable feather token that upgrades, could be useful for phyto.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Shadow_Charlatan wrote:
Unchained has a reusable feather token that upgrades, could be useful for phyto.

Going to have to look into that.


So Im still entirely confused as to how the Kineticist can use combat maneuvers. I want to know how viable it can be to get Dirty Fighting and just use that as a substitute for the Combat Expertise.


MadScientistWorking wrote:
So Im still entirely confused as to how the Kineticist can use combat maneuvers. I want to know how viable it can be to get Dirty Fighting and just use that as a substitute for the Combat Expertise.

Some infusions, like bowling and pushing. Allow you to do a specific combat maneuver with the blast. In this case it would be trip and bull rush, respectively. Outside of that you need telekinetic maneuvers and have the aether element. This would allow you to use your basic telekinesis to attempt combat maneuvers. Having telekinetic finesse will add dirty trick and steal maneuvers.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Couldn't you perform combat maneuvers with kinetic blade, kinetic fist, or kinetic whip?


Ravingdork wrote:
Couldn't you perform combat maneuvers with kinetic blade, kinetic fist, or kinetic whip?

Only the maneuvers that normally involve weapons. Trip, sunder (would be a terrible choice for energy blasts), and disarm.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Protoman wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Couldn't you perform combat maneuvers with kinetic blade, kinetic fist, or kinetic whip?
Only the maneuvers that normally involve weapons. Trip, sunder (would be a terrible choice for energy blasts), and disarm.

The other maneuvers don't need weapons anyways. :P


Ravingdork wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Couldn't you perform combat maneuvers with kinetic blade, kinetic fist, or kinetic whip?
Only the maneuvers that normally involve weapons. Trip, sunder (would be a terrible choice for energy blasts), and disarm.
The other maneuvers don't need weapons anyways. :P

And those ones would require regular CMB that isn't modified by Weapon Finesse and would use strength modifiers instead.

The infusion maneuvers Texas Snyper mentioned would use Constitution; and grappling infusion has its own formula of 2 + Kineticist level + Con modifier.


Hey guys, crit feats and kinetic blast? Would improved critical be as awesome as I think it would? Can you do anything rude to increase it further, that wouldn't cost a lot to do?


I've taken Improved Critical at 9th, it delays kinetic whip for me till 13th, but I think my geokineticist can make due till then.

Improved critical is about as awesome as it is for any 20/x2 weapon: 5% better chance to critical hit.

In standard Pathfinder, you cannot increase the critical range once you already have done so.

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