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Does ammunition fired from a magical projectile weapon gain the benefits of the weapons magical enhancement or abilities?


Rules Questions

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41 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 4 people marked this as a favorite.
Magic Weapons wrote:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

This is the only rules text that really interacts with ranged weapons and ammunition.

It points out that ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus is treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Then it goes further on to indicate that a weapon with an alignment, conveys that alignment to the ammunition.

If it's assumed that projectile weapons convey their properties to the ammunition, then the second line is meaningless. But if the weapon doesn't convey the properties to the ammunition, then the second line serves a purpose.

This is a really important question, because the first line I emphasized only states ammunition is treated as magic but it doesn't state that they gain the ability to penetrate DR as if it also had the same enhancement bonus as the weapon used.

So this would mean an arrow fired from a +5 longbow will penetrate DR/piercing, DR/magic, and it will affect incorporeal creatures, but it won't penetrate damage reduction based off cold iron, silver, adamantine, or good/evil/lawful/chaotic.

This would mean that in order for an archer, or gunslinger, or crossbowmen etc, to penetrate damage reduction, they can't just have a magical weapon, they are also required to carry around magical ammunition with an enhancement bonus as well.

[Edit] I feel this is an important question that should probably get some designer input as it could have very large consequences for the ranged weapon users everywhere. So please, click the FAQ button unless you've got irrefutable proof that answers the question in a definitive manner.


The section on Overcoming DR states:

Quote:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

So yes, you only need an appropriate magical weapon to bypass DR.

/EDIT: It also says this right in your quote from the rules for Magic Weapons... have I misunderstood the question?


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There's a fair number of weapon abilities that say, "This ability can only be placed a ranged weapon." If the weapon can't convey those abilities to the ammunition, their existence is meaningless and contradictory.

The text you've highlighted could simply be referring to intelligent items or artifacts which have alignments without necessarily possessing enhancements like holy or archaic.


jbadams wrote:

The section on Overcoming DR states:

Quote:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
So yes, you only need an appropriate magical weapon to bypass DR.

You... uh... kind of posted exactly what I quoted in my post.

This quote doesn't state that an arrow fired from a +5 longbow is treated as a +5 arrow, it only states that it is treated as a magical weapon. It further states that an weapon with an alignment gives that alignment to the projectile.

The second line is incredibly important, because if the answer to my question is, "yes" then the second line serves no purpose. Why? Because if a +5 holy longbow shares it's magical properties with the arrows it fires, then the arrows already benefit from holy because the arrows share the magical properties.

However, if the answer to my question is, "no" then an arrow fired from a +5 holy longbow is treated as magical, and holy, which lets the arrow bypass DR/magic, and DR/good. It does not however, bypass DR/cold iron, DR/silver, DR/adamantine, DR/chaotic, DR/evil, or DR/lawful.


pipedreamsam wrote:

There's a fair number of weapon abilities that say, "This ability can only be put on ranged weapons." If the weapon can't convey that ability, it would be meaningless to have.

The text you've highlighted could simply be referring to intelligent items or artifacts which have alignments without necessarily possessing enhancements like holy or archaic.

This is very true, but the number of these abilities is actually fairly limited and would be a case of "specific trumps general". It's also worth noting, that there are properties that specifically state "Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition."

If weapons conveyed special abilities unto their ammunition, then the bolded text would be unnecessary and redundant. To be honest, I would have included this in my original post, but I didn't think to look at specific special abilities until I saw your post. When I originally made this post, I already felt that weapons didn't convey their special abilities after discovering this, but your post, and the discovery of the special annotation for ranged weapons, makes me even more certain that the answer to my original question is, most decidedly, "No."


Ok, so if we're treating them as magical for the purposes of overcoming DR when they have an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher it's telling us to follow the chart from the section on Overcoming DR: cold iron, silver, adamantine and alignment based DR will be overcome as expected.

For specific abilities such as holy you would refer to the chart of magical properties for ranged weapons, which has notation indicating which properties are passed on to ammunition.


Tels wrote:


However, if the answer to my question is, "no" then an arrow fired from a +5 holy longbow is treated as magical, and holy, which lets the arrow bypass DR/magic, and DR/good. It does not however, bypass DR/cold iron, DR/silver, DR/adamantine, DR/chaotic, DR/evil, or DR/lawful.

You just answered your own question right here.

If you want a magical ranged attack to overcome other forms of DR, then tge ammunition itself needs to enchanted.

I believe also, tgis is one of the reasons for the feat Clustered Shot was made... to give archers an alternative means of dealing with DR, beyond expensive single use ammo.


jbadams wrote:

Ok, so if we're treating them as magical for the purposes of overcoming DR when they have an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher it's telling us to follow the chart from the section on Overcoming DR: cold iron, silver, adamantine and alignment based DR will be overcome as expected.

For specific abilities such as holy you would refer to the chart of magical properties for ranged weapons, which has notation indicating which properties are passed on to ammunition.

Yes, I understand this, but follow the logic of the rules.

I have a completely non-magical arrow. I fire it from a +5 longbow. What do the rules states happens to the arrow?

Overcoming DR wrote:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

Does the longbow have an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher? Yes. So the arrow is treated as magical.

Does the longbow have an alingment? No. So the arrow does not have an alignment.

The non-magical arrow is now treated as magical, allowing it to overcome DR/magic and affect incorporeal creatures.

The rules do not state that weapons convey the actual enhancement bonus to their ammunition, nor does it state that ammunition is able to penetrate DR as if it had an enhancement bonus equal to the weapon that fired it.


Pathos wrote:
Tels wrote:


However, if the answer to my question is, "no" then an arrow fired from a +5 holy longbow is treated as magical, and holy, which lets the arrow bypass DR/magic, and DR/good. It does not however, bypass DR/cold iron, DR/silver, DR/adamantine, DR/chaotic, DR/evil, or DR/lawful.

You just answered your own question right here.

If you want a magical ranged attack to overcome other forms of DR, then tge ammunition itself needs to enchanted.

I believe also, tgis is one of the reasons for the feat Clustered Shot was made... to give archers an alternative means of dealing with DR, beyond expensive single use ammo.

I did, and I didn't. If I go by the rules exactly as they are written, then yes, I've already answered my question. At which point, this thread serves a secondary purpose of informing people that archers, gunslingers, crossbowmen, sling users, atl-atl users, blowgun users etc... do not penetrate DR by having a magical weapon, they need magical ammunition to do it.

This means, people who complain about archers killing everything, just had some good news, because archers actually need magical ammo to do that, instead of a magical projectile weapon.

However... what if the rules weren't intended to function this way? What if the rules were intended to allow ammunition to be treated as having the same enhancement bonus as the weapon that fired it? Is so, then this question needs to be FAQ'd so that the designers can answer it, or issue errata for it.


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Quote:
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

This pretty clearly states that if your ammo has an enhancement bonus lower than your weapon, you use the weapons enhancement bonus.

I guess that second line is an insurance policy of sorts, without it I could see an argument along the lines of "sure, you get the +5 to hit and damage from your bow, but the arrow is still not itself magical - no bypassing DR /magic for you"


Then you have just made Clustered Shot and magical ammo nearly useless... both of which, is to overcome DR.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Quote:
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

This pretty clearly states that if your ammo has an enhancement bonus lower than your weapon, you use the weapons enhancement bonus.

I guess that second line is an insurance policy of sorts, without it I could see an argument along the lines of "sure, you get the +5 to hit and damage from your bow, but the arrow is still not itself magical - no bypassing DR /magic for you"

Hmm... good point. But at the same time, the only time it would matter whether something stacked or not, would be on attack and damage rolls. The enhancement bonus from the bow still applies to attack and damage rolls. So a +3 longbow firing +2 arrows would have an attack and damage bonus of +3 because the bow has the higher of the two enhancement bonuses.

As for whether or not the bow gives the enhancement bonus to the arrow to overcome DR... that remains uncertain. Though I still strongly believe it doesn't.


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The first two lines indicate that the higher enhancement bonus of the weapon or ammunition applies. Ergo, the weapon does impart an enhancement bonus unless the ammunition already has a greater enhancement bonus.
.
The third line indicates that we should follow the rules for overcoming DR according up enhancement bonus: we don't just get the bonus to hit but also the ability to overcome DR.
.
The fourth line indicates that if the weapon has an alignment then the alignment is also imparted. This needs to be stated separately because an aligned weapon may overcome alignment-based DR but have a lower than +5 enhancement bonus.
.
For specific weapon properties the chart or ability write-up indicates whether or not they are imparted to ammunition.


Tels wrote:
As for whether or not the bow gives the enhancement bonus to the arrow to overcome DR... that remains uncertain. Though I still strongly believe it doesn't.

What else could "ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" mean? To me that outright states that the weapon imparts the ability to overcome DR as per the enhancement bonus; if you're suggesting it doesn't mean that then what do you think it means?

.
/EDIT: Reading that back it could be taken as a hostile tone. I don't mean it that way, I'm genuinely asking the question as I can't see how that could be interpreted differently.


Pathos wrote:
Then you have just made Clustered Shot and magical ammo nearly useless... both of which, is to overcome DR.

Not everything remains useful to all characters at all times, and these things are both VERY useful if you don't have a +5 bow.

.
Even if you do have a +5 bow, magical ammo may be useful for properties your weapon does not possess/impart.
.
Clustered Shots is admittedly rendered almost useless unless you're using the optional massive damage rule, but that's exactly the sort of situation retraining is good for.
.
(Sorry for the string of replies, this site is fiddly to use on my mobile.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am the Ravingdork, and I support this FAQ thread.


I agree with Tels' point, and also support this FAQ thread.

We may know how it's supposed to work. However, the rules seem to say something different. Worthy of a fix in a future edition, at the very least.


Wait, so the Paizo Bow of Ashes, which is an adaptive flaming composite bow doesn't actually transfer the flaming property to the ammunition?


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_Ozy_ wrote:
Wait, so the Paizo Bow of Ashes, which is an adaptive flaming composite bow doesn't actually transfer the flaming property to the ammunition?

Apparently not.

It has the flaming property just in case you feel like using it as an improvised weapon.
Obviously.


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Or the Paizo frostbite sling:

Quote:
This +1 frost sling is crafted of blue-dyed leather. In lieu of adding cold damage to normal ammunition, three times per day wielder may create and hurl a magical snowball with the sling instead.

It seems like it should be common knowledge that magical properties are transferred to ammunition, does this really need a FAQ?


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_Ozy_ wrote:
Wait, so the Paizo Bow of Ashes, which is an adaptive flaming composite bow doesn't actually transfer the flaming property to the ammunition?

If you check the table for Ranged Special Weapon Abilities you'll see that a number of abilities (including flaming, frost, shock, bane, holy, amongst others) are notated with a superscript 3, indicating that "projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition."

.
So yes, that property would indeed be transferred to the ammunition.
.
.
It specifically states that the highest enhancement bonus applies, so the weapon does impart enhancement bonus unless the enhancement bonus of the ammunition is already higher. In the case that both the weapon and ammunition have enhancement bonuses we do not get to stack those bonuses, only the highest applies.
.
It specifically states that if there is an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher the weapon is treated as magic for the purposes of overcoming DR, so we follow the rules for magical weapons overcoming DR.
.
It specifically states that if the weapon has an alignment that alignment is imparted to the ammunition, so shots from an aligned weapon can bypass alignment-based DR even if the enhancement bonus is less than +5.
.
The table for ranged weapon special abilities tells us which properties are and aren't imparted to ammunition.
.
I just don't understand why a faq is required or what is unclear about these particular rules... to me that seems pretty clearly spelt out and seems to cover all points.


jbadams wrote:
Tels wrote:
As for whether or not the bow gives the enhancement bonus to the arrow to overcome DR... that remains uncertain. Though I still strongly believe it doesn't.

What else could "ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" mean? To me that outright states that the weapon imparts the ability to overcome DR as per the enhancement bonus; if you're suggesting it doesn't mean that then what do you think it means?

.
/EDIT: Reading that back it could be taken as a hostile tone. I don't mean it that way, I'm genuinely asking the question as I can't see how that could be interpreted differently.

It means exactly what it says.

Pathfinder is a permissive system. The rules tell you what you can do, and what happens, and nothing more. So, here, the rules say, "The weapon is treated as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

That's the end of it. The arrow is treated as magical. It's not treated as a +1 arrow or a +5 arrow or anything in between. The fact that the game goes out of it's way to indicate which abilities are transferred to from the bow, to the arrow, is very strong evidence to suggest that the arrows don't benefit from the enhancement bonuses of the bow.

As it stands, no one has offered any substantial evidence to refute the idea that projectile weapons don't enhance their ammunition. I'd still like to get some designer input, and I'd especially like to see this answered in the FAQ, but the evidence seems pretty clear.


jbadams wrote:

Ok, so if we're treating them as magical for the purposes of overcoming DR when they have an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher it's telling us to follow the chart from the section on Overcoming DR: cold iron (+3), silver (+3), adamantine (+4) and alignment based DR (+5) will be overcome as noted based on the enhancement bonus.

For specific abilities such as holy you would refer to the chart of magical properties for ranged weapons, which has notation indicating which properties are passed on to ammunition.

Actually, by the rules, a +5 weapon would overcome DR for all of the following: cold iron, silver, adamantine, alignment. Additionally, a weapon with certain properties can overcome alignment DR (as appropriate).

The main contention here is that a magical weapon requires the ammunition to possess the exact same properties as it in order to allow the attack to benefit from the properties of... the magical weapon itself.

Magic Weapons wrote:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

This clearly means that you take the most applicable property of either weapon, stacking all but those that provide the same bonus. So if you have a +5 magical bow, but you are firing a +1 bane (dragon) arrow, you are attacking with a +5 magical arrow with the bane (dragon) property. Essentially, this means that you stack all properties shared between the launcher and the ammunition, except for those properties which are exactly the same (you do not add +1 to +3, you simply take it as +3, and you cannot have flaming and flaming, but only one single flaming property). So if I fire a +1 flaming arrow from a +5 longbow, I am essentially firing a +5 flaming arrow, and the attack is treated as such. I'm not quite sure how you could possibly misconstrue the magic weapons rules as to confuse this means of operation.

In short, go for a +5 longbow. Buy your ammunition to support your needs for cheaper, or just buy mundane arrows. The launching weapon imparts its magical bonus onto mundane ammunition. Also, if you are an Arcane Archer, just go for a +5 bow and mundane ammo, and then you can use all of the properties you want!

The rules EXPLICITLY state that you use the higher of the two enhancement bonuses. +5 is higher than +0. So the mundane arrow fired from a +5 bow is treated as a +5 arrow. I'm wondering if you've even read the rules or if you are just trying to kill someone's fun.

An even more to-the-point question is this: What is the point of a magical weapon if you get ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT from it, and must use similarly enchanted ammunition? The rules don't support you, and your basic premise doesn't support you. I implore you to re-read the relevant rules and realize that what you are suggesting is inaccurate, and that you need to accept the fact that a magical ranged weapon imparts its properties (unless there is overlap or superior overlap) onto what the ammunition is already considered, even if the ammunition is completely mundane. In fact, that's the most significant point to even GETTING a magical ranged weapon; to make your mundane ammunition count as magical.


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The rules about selecting the higher enchantment refutes your idea that the arrow doesn't benefit from the bow.

Quote:
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Therefore, if the bow has a higher enhancement bonus than the arrow, the bow's enhancement bonus applies. Weapon enhancement bonuses affect both attack and damage rolls.


Ok, I get the objection now, but that still leads me back to the fact that according to the rules on overcoming DR, "weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment."; we can see that the enhancement bonus definitely applies, and we know the ammunition counts as magical for overcoming DR, so as a magical weapon with an enhancement bonus it should be eligible for these rules.


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Tels wrote:
Magic Weapons wrote:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

This is the only rules text that really interacts with ranged weapons and ammunition.

These are special rules for Ranged Weapons and ammunition. They don't override the general magic weapon rules.

Quote:
A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonuses on attack rolls do not stack with their enhancement bonuses on attack rolls.

Also all other magic weapon rules apply unless the specifically exclude ranged weapons.

As for DR,

Quote:
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.

No exceptions listed here; all weapons with a +3 bonus overcomes DR.

All general rules apply barring specific exceptions. These special ranged rules just clarify and restate rules listed elsewhere. They don't exclude ranged weapons from any of the general rules.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tels wrote:
Magic weapons wrote:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

This is the only rules text that really interacts with ranged weapons and ammunition.

It points out that ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus is treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Then it goes further on to indicate that a weapon with an alignment, conveys that alignment to the ammunition.

If it's assumed that projectile weapons convey their properties to the ammunition, then the second line is meaningless. But if the weapon doesn't convey the properties to the ammunition, then the second line serves a purpose.

This is a really important question, because the first line I emphasized only states ammunition is treated as magic but it doesn't state that they gain the ability to penetrate DR as if it also had the same enhancement bonus as the weapon used.

So this would mean an arrow fired from a +5 longbow will penetrate DR/piercing, DR/magic, and it will affect incorporeal creatures, but it won't penetrate damage reduction based off cold iron, silver, adamantine, or good/evil/lawful/chaotic.

This would mean that in order for an archer, or gunslinger, or crossbowmen etc, to penetrate damage reduction, they can't just have a magical weapon, they are also required to carry around magical ammunition with an enhancement bonus as well.

[Edit] I feel this is an important question that should probably get some designer input as it could have very large consequences for the ranged...

PRD - Magic items/weapons wrote:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

The quote in the DR section say that the weapon count as magic, this one, don't but it say that you apply the highest of the two bonuses.

Combine them and you get:
"a projectile fired by an enchanted weapon apply the highest of its or the weapon enhancement bonus and count as magic".

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Byakko wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Wait, so the Paizo Bow of Ashes, which is an adaptive flaming composite bow doesn't actually transfer the flaming property to the ammunition?

Apparently not.

It has the flaming property just in case you feel like using it as an improvised weapon.
Obviously.

PRD - Magic items/weapons wrote:


Flaming2
2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nobody is saying that a +1 arrow doesn't get the +5 enhancement bonus to attacks and damage when fired from a +5 bow.

What people want to know is whether said arrow (when fired from said bow) counts as a +5 arrow for the purposes of bypassing material DR.

To put the FAQ question more simply: Does firing a +1 arrow* from a +5 bow* bypass DR/silver, DR/cold iron, or DR/adamantine?

* Or other form of ammunition
** Or other ranged firing weapon


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This thread is ridiculous.


Pathos wrote:
Then you have just made Clustered Shot and magical ammo nearly useless... both of which, is to overcome DR.

I would love to have a game where I get a +3 or better bow by the time I have clustered shots.

Wording is odd, support the FAQ and a rewrite/clarification.
Quite certain the launcher enchant is intended to be fully imparted to the projectile for any and all purposes, including DR.


Ravingdork wrote:

Nobody is saying that a +1 arrow doesn't get the +5 enhancement bonus to attacks and damage when fired from a +5 bow.

What people want to know is whether said arrow (when fired from said bow) counts as a +5 arrow for the purposes of bypassing material DR.

To put the FAQ question more simply: Does firing a +1 arrow* from a +5 bow* bypass DR/silver, DR/cold iron, or DR/adamantine?

* Or other form of ammunition
** Or other ranged firing weapon

Why would it not?

Where do the rules explicitly say it doesn't?

Claxon wrote:
This thread is ridiculous.


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Here is my take:

1. It's obvious that crossbows (etc.) convey their bonuses to the projectile or there is no reason to even have a magical crossbow - nobody is choosing to wield their crossbow as a magical improvised club and certainly nobody is making them magical just for THAT purpose. So, clearly, magical projectile weapons apply the bonuses to the ammo.

2. Point #1 is even more obvious when you consider that you are not actually attacking your opponent with an arrow, or a bolt, or a bullet. You are attacking them with a bow, or a crossbow, or a sling (or gun). Nobody (even in the modern world) ever says "The murderer shot the victim with a bullet"; they say "The murderer shot the victim with a gun". I shoot guns. My guns shoot bullets. So, the magic enhancement bonuses on the WEAPON are added to the attack roll you make with the WEAPON. Likewise, the damage is listed for the WEAPON. Short bows do 1d6, longbows do 1d8, etc. The damage is not listed for the ammunition. So the WEAPON does the damage so the WEAPON damage modifier is applied to the WEAPON. This all makes perfect sense linguistically and mechanically.

3. Furthermore, they say "The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies." so we KNOW that a weapon with a higher enhancement bonus applies the WEAPON's enhancement bonus but not the ammo enhancement bonus.

4. The same logic above applies to other magical features too, not just to enhancement bonuses. There is no point making your crossbow (e.g.) Holy if you have to use it as improvised club to get the benefit.

5. Then why do they say: "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction"? Simple. I could easily infer that firing non-magical arrows from a magical bow means I get the +X to hit and damage [/i]because my bow is magically accurate[/i], but the non-magical arrow might still bounce off of a creature with Damage Reduction that requires a magical weapon to hit. In other words, an accurate bow, even a magically accurate bow, does not necessarily mean that the ammo is also magical. This sentence clarifies that it really is.

6. Then why do they say "Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon"? For the same reason as #5. I could assume that my Holy longbow is +2 to hit demons and does extra damage to demons because the BOW is magically accurate, but then the non-magical arrow will not count as magical and/or good for bypassing the demon's DR. This sentence makes it clear that it does.

Hopefully that clears it up.


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Claxon wrote:
This thread is ridiculous.

Not the first, won't be the last. People love to overthink things.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Nobody is saying that a +1 arrow doesn't get the +5 enhancement bonus to attacks and damage when fired from a +5 bow.

What people want to know is whether said arrow (when fired from said bow) counts as a +5 arrow for the purposes of bypassing material DR.

To put the FAQ question more simply: Does firing a +1 arrow* from a +5 bow* bypass DR/silver, DR/cold iron, or DR/adamantine?

* Or other form of ammunition
** Or other ranged firing weapon

After it has been fired it is a arrow with a +5 enhancement bonus, what you think it will do?

The rule is very clear:
"Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."
The arrow benefit from the higher enhancement bonus. Period.

What is the requirement to bypass the DR?

PRD wrote:


Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does

The requirement is to have an enhancement bonus that is high enough. Exactly what the rule cited above say teh arrow get.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Nobody is saying that a +1 arrow doesn't get the +5 enhancement bonus to attacks and damage when fired from a +5 bow.

What people want to know is whether said arrow (when fired from said bow) counts as a +5 arrow for the purposes of bypassing material DR.

To put the FAQ question more simply: Does firing a +1 arrow* from a +5 bow* bypass DR/silver, DR/cold iron, or DR/adamantine?

* Or other form of ammunition
** Or other ranged firing weapon

After it has been fired it is a arrow with a +5 enhancement bonus, what you think it will do?

The rule is very clear:
"Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."
The arrow benefit from the higher enhancement bonus. Period.

What is the requirement to bypass the DR?

PRD wrote:


Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does

The requirement is to have an enhancement bonus that is high enough. Exactly what the rule cited above say teh arrow get.

And yet, here we have:

Quote:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Nothing in the bolded text states that said arrow overcomes additional DR beyond counting as magical (not unlike Enchant Weapon, Greater)... that is the crux of the question. Another way to look at is, as the difference between a temporary or permanent enchantment bonus.


An example for the temporary enhancement...
Endless Ammunition:

Quote:
Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single nonmagical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon's wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.

Which specifically calls out that the created arrow is nonmagical. Leaving it with the baseline of magical for overcoming DR (per my previous post).


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Pathos wrote:


And yet, here we have:
Quote:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Nothing in the bolded text states that said arrow overcomes additional DR beyond counting as magical (not unlike Enchant Weapon, Greater)... that is the crux of the question. Another way to look at is, as the difference between a temporary or permanent enchantment bonus.

Nothing in the bolded text states that arrows do not use the general rules presented in the entry for DR. Nothing in the bolded text contradicts the rules presented in the entry for DR. (A +5 weapon is still treated as a magic weapon for overcoming DR)

Both rules apply.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quantum Steve wrote:
Pathos wrote:


And yet, here we have:
Quote:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Nothing in the bolded text states that said arrow overcomes additional DR beyond counting as magical (not unlike Enchant Weapon, Greater)... that is the crux of the question. Another way to look at is, as the difference between a temporary or permanent enchantment bonus.

Nothing in the bolded text states that arrows do not use the general rules presented in the entry for DR. Nothing in the bolded text contradicts the rules presented in the entry for DR. (A +5 weapon is still treated as a magic weapon for overcoming DR)

Both rules apply.

Perhaps.

Nevertheless, I believe it leaves enough room for doubt that a FAQ is warranted.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

This thread puts my rules lawyering to shame.


Pathos wrote:
Nothing in the bolded text states that said arrow overcomes additional DR beyond counting as magical (not unlike Enchant Weapon, Greater)... that is the crux of the question.

No, nothing in the bolded text says anything about it. Therefore, since we aren't told otherwise shouldn't we apply the normal rules that apply to any other weapon with +3 or greater enhancement bonus? If we all agree that the enhancement bonus does indeed apply (as seems to be the case) then why wouldn't it allow you to overcome DR as per every other weapon with a enhancement bonus? Nothing says it doesn't...

Quote:
Another way to look at is, as the difference between a temporary or permanent enchantment bonus.

Have you got an example for this? Your example of Endless Ammunition doesn't show a temporary enchantment, because it doesn't show an enchantment on the arrows at all -- there is no bonus imparted to the arrows -- it's a magical effect that creates mundane arrows, and is completely unrelated to the rules for a ranged weapon imparting benefits to ammunition.

The spell Temporary Enchantment also seems completely unrelated to the question.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Pathos wrote:


And yet, here we have:
Quote:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Nothing in the bolded text states that said arrow overcomes additional DR beyond counting as magical (not unlike Enchant Weapon, Greater)... that is the crux of the question. Another way to look at is, as the difference between a temporary or permanent enchantment bonus.

Nothing in the bolded text states that arrows do not use the general rules presented in the entry for DR. Nothing in the bolded text contradicts the rules presented in the entry for DR. (A +5 weapon is still treated as a magic weapon for overcoming DR)

Both rules apply.

Perhaps.

Nevertheless, I believe it leaves enough room for doubt that a FAQ is warranted.

It's not a Frequently Asked Question. It's an Almost Never Asked Question, only asked in thought experiments on how to misinterpret the rules.

Which are fun, don't get me wrong, but hardly worth the PDT's time.


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Quantum Steve wrote:
It's not a Frequently Asked Question. It's an Almost Never Asked Question, only asked in thought experiments on how to misinterpret the rules.

This.

There's really nothing to be clarified here, beyond the level where some people "need" to have a written line stating that dead characters can't move/act/perceive/etc.


Astral Wanderer wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
It's not a Frequently Asked Question. It's an Almost Never Asked Question, only asked in thought experiments on how to misinterpret the rules.

This.

There's really nothing to be clarified here, beyond the level where some people "need" to have a written line stating that dead characters can't move/act/perceive/etc.

Pathfinder is a permissive system and therefore tells you what you *can* do not what you *can't* do. Pathfinder rules doesn't state what actions I'm allowed to take when 'dead' therefore, I cannot take any actions.

However, the rules also don't state that projectile weapons transfer the enhancement bonus to it's ammo, only stating it treats that ammo as magical, and as if it has an alignment if the weapon itself has an alignment.


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Tels wrote:
However, the rules also don't state that projectile weapons transfer the enhancement bonus to it's ammo

Yes they do, the first and second line of your quoted section of rules in the original post state exactly that.

What else are you suggesting the following lines could possibly mean?

"The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."

If the weapon has a higher enhancement bonus than the ammunition, the enhancement bonus of the weapon applies. It's very clear.

The rules also state that a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +3 or higher can bypass certain types of DR. Nowhere does it state that this rule doesn't apply in the situation discussed. In a permissive system, if a permission is given in general it must be specifically revoked to not apply in specific cases.


I'm fine with the discussion so far suggesting that a non-magical arrow fired from a +5 bow counts as a +5 arrow for all intent and purposes, including bypassing Dr/alignment.

After all, that's how it was understood it worked in every group i played so far. Yes I know archers are strong, but I don't see myself nerfing them in my groups by applying what some have suggested here, so far.

I do have a question about the enhancement stacking, however.

I fire a non magical arrow from a +5 bow = I fire a +5 arrow
I fire a +5 arrow from a +2 bow = I fire a +5 arrow.

But...

If I fire a +1 flaming burst arrow from a +2 bow, what happens?
if only the highest bonus applies, we could deduce the arrow ends up as a +1 flaming burst arrow (equivalent +3 bonus).

Is there any way it can stack constructively ?
In the previous scenario, could I end up with a +2 flaming burst arrow ,by stacking the best enchantment of both weapon and ammunition?

If not... does that mean that if I fire a +1 flaming burst arrow (eq. +3) from a +1 adaptive composite bow (eq. +2), the bow loses the adaptive property because the enhancement of the arrow supersedes the ench. of the bow ?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gurior wrote:

I'm fine with the discussion so far suggesting that a non-magical arrow fired from a +5 bow counts as a +5 arrow for all intent and purposes, including bypassing Dr/alignment.

After all, that's how it was understood it worked in every group i played so far. Yes I know archers are strong, but I don't see myself nerfing them in my groups by applying what some have suggested here, so far.

I do have a question about the enhancement stacking, however.

I fire a non magical arrow from a +5 bow = I fire a +5 arrow
I fire a +5 arrow from a +2 bow = I fire a +5 arrow.

But...

If I fire a +1 flaming burst arrow from a +2 bow, what happens?
if only the highest bonus applies, we could deduce the arrow ends up as a +1 flaming burst arrow (equivalent +3 bonus).

Is there any way it can stack constructively ?
In the previous scenario, could I end up with a +2 flaming burst arrow ,by stacking the best enchantment of both weapon and ammunition?

If not... does that mean that if I fire a +1 flaming burst arrow (eq. +3) from a +1 adaptive composite bow (eq. +2), the bow loses the adaptive property because the enhancement of the arrow supersedes the ench. of the bow ?

Already explained in this thread:

PRD wrote:

Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities

Flaming2
2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
jbadams wrote:
Tels wrote:
However, the rules also don't state that projectile weapons transfer the enhancement bonus to it's ammo
Yes they do, the first and second line of your quoted section of rules in the original post state exactly that.

Man, if the general rules trumped more specific rules like you are describing, jbadams, than this game would be an absolute unplayable mess!


"Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction"
A +5 bow is a weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
jbadams wrote:
Tels wrote:
However, the rules also don't state that projectile weapons transfer the enhancement bonus to it's ammo
Yes they do, the first and second line of your quoted section of rules in the original post state exactly that.
Man, if the general rules trumped more specific rules like you are describing, jbadams, than this game would be an absolute unplayable mess!

Rav, you are saying that an enhancement bonus isn't an enhancement bonus?

When? Based on what piece of text?

We have this:
"Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."
You are arguing that one of the enhancement bonuses isn't an enhancement bonuses but something different. Find a piece of text saying that.

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