Eh, the "mirror mimic" and the shapeshifter seem pretty distinct to me.
There was a greater doppelganger that gained people's stats as "optional forms" by eating them.
A Gun-caster.
The Spellslinger is a good first step, but there's no dedicated gun-mage yet at all.
6th-level Caster or Alchemist who literally fires off spells with a gun.
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A Master Spy (made Base Class) / Master of Disguise.
Bards & Rogues can do some of the disguising & sneaking that a Master Spy can, but there hasn't been a dedicated character like that yet, and DEFINITELY not the fantastic "hide from Scrying, immunity to thought-detection magic, literally alter your alignment while disguising, etc." things that a Master Spy can.
If the Devs pull their heads out of... somewhere I won't mention... then maybe the Vigilante will turn into this (which it should - the damn book is called ULTIMATE INTRIGUE after all).
There's no reason to NOT have a dedicated spy/infiltrator/conman/etc. from lv1 onward.
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A Shadow-master.
Make the Shadowdancer into a Base Class.
Hell, the Vigilante could alternatively be a Shadowdancer - I still think it should be a Master Spy, but if the Vigilante turned into a Shadowdancer I wouldn't be upset in the slightest.
There's a Summoner Archetype of a caster for the Fetchling (I believe) that turns your Eidolon into a Shadow and makes you summon Shadow monsters instead of Elementals, Celestial, or Fiendish ones, but that's not all-inclusive in the slightest.
Have you considered checking out 3rd Party material? Path of Shadows has the Nightblade class (which you can check out on the d20pfsrd). It has many of the features of the shadowdancer, though it is more magically inclined by being a 0-6 spellcaster.
In my upcoming book, Path of Iron, I have the Saboteur class which can definitely fill in the role of the Master Spy; it gains many of the spy's abilities like changing your own alignment or constant nondetection (and you can read up on it in the playtest for the book). There's also the eldritch eye magus archetype, which while not an entirely separate class, has the ability to use firearms with the magus's main mechanics (Spellstrike, spell combat, etc.).
* A bard archetype that has no spells! Like Gabriel from Xena Warrior Princess.
* Similarly, a "noble" class like the one in 3rd ed Dragonlance.
* In yet another similar idea, a "tourist" class. Somebody with no apparent special abilities but still goes on adventures. Like Twoflower from Discworld.
* A summoner archetype that casts no spells, such as in "Pete's Dragon".
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What do you mean Melkiador? There are plenty of classes that tank well although I will admit that AC as a means of tanking becomes more and more redundant the higher level you go.Any class with hp can soak damage. That's what the healer's shield other is for. A tanking class would be one that can control the battlefield in such a way as to direct attacks to itself.
Flowing Monk actually does this tolerably well.
* Similarly, a "noble" class like the one in 3rd ed Dragonlance.
There is the Noble Scion prestige class, which may fill the "noble" class (with the flexbility to make it literally whatever kind of noble you want since it's a prestige class and it has an ability that allows you to build upon pre-existing class abilities).
I mentioned it elsewhere but there really doesn't seem to be an "anti-caster"(spell negation/challenge, but no spells) or "enchanter"(abilities to move curses/enchantments/spells from one place to another, but not to cast them themselves) class designed to fight casters without being on some level a caster themselves
I'd be cool with some sort of martial anti-magic witch hunter class.
What would an anti-magic witch hunter class be able to do?
Would it combine the Spellbreaker chain of feats with Evasion and Stalwart? An ability to cause extra damage based on the highest spell the target can cast? A way to absorb or deflect spell energy?
Would it be able to dispel magic? Project an aura of anti-magic? Counterspell?
What would an anti-magic witch hunter class be able to do?
Would it combine the Spellbreaker chain of feats with Evasion and Stalwart? An ability to cause extra damage based on the highest spell the target can cast? A way to absorb or deflect spell energy?
Would it be able to dispel magic? Project an aura of anti-magic? Counterspell?
reroll saves, develop immunities against certain effects like a paladin, something similar to spell-sunder would be practically required, and that vigilante ability posted earlier in the thread. At least, those are good starting points. Perhaps mimic other things like a tetori's ability to negate freedom of movement and teleporting.
Heck, now I'm envisioning a whole slew of antispell maneuvers. Steal spell, spell sunder, no escape grapple, spell-turning parry, etc.
What would an anti-magic witch hunter class be able to do?
Would it combine the Spellbreaker chain of feats with Evasion and Stalwart? An ability to cause extra damage based on the highest spell the target can cast? A way to absorb or deflect spell energy?
Would it be able to dispel magic? Project an aura of anti-magic? Counterspell?
I suppose it would need to focus on countering the sorts of things casters use that can't be countered.
-Uncanny initiative: roll initiative to go before a caster's contingency effect. DC=casterlevel+caster stat-Dissolve manifestation: Any physical barrier or effect created by a spell or spell like ability within spellbreakers threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity before it appears. CMB vs. CL+CS destroys the spell effect.
-imprecise strike: Attacks hit a 5ft area but need to both hit AC and provide a reflex save for half versus CMB. this removes any miss chance or targeting error.
That sort of thing.
* Similarly, a "noble" class like the one in 3rd ed Dragonlance.
Does this work for that?
With regards to the "challenge" idea—maybe it's a sort of forced redirection of the magic itself. So, you shoot a scorching ray, it bends out of the fighter's way and instead hits the scruffy arcanaphobe, doing no damage. You're like the black hole of magic.
* Similarly, a "noble" class like the one in 3rd ed Dragonlance.Does this work for that?
No. It might do for a "knight" or "Warrior Princess" character, but not for a typical non-combatant noble. Dragonlance's noble class focused on social interactions and connections.
* Similarly, a "noble" class like the one in 3rd ed Dragonlance.
There is the Noble Scion prestige class, which may fill the "noble" class (with the flexbility to make it literally whatever kind of noble you want since it's a prestige class and it has an ability that allows you to build upon pre-existing class abilities).
Close, but it's a prestige class, so you are still stuck taking some other class first to qualify. It's also Golarion-specific. So something like this as full 20-level class for the core rules is what I mean.
No. It might do for a "knight" or "Warrior Princess" character, but not for a typical non-combatant noble. Dragonlance's noble class focused on social interactions and connections.
Why? Both classes have favour granting abilities (though mine takes a few levels to start, but are much more powerful), ability to inspire allies to buff them, bonuses to charisma based skills (rather than just skill focus as a bonus feat), etc. and the only ability it's really missing is coordinate. My class actually has more social abilities than the noble.
edit: Now edited in a coordinate and a weaker favour ability. Now it definitely should be able to work for it... hopefully.
someone mentioning archivist from the old WotC Heroes of Horror. That did make me think...we really don't have a scroll-based caster. I could see that being developed. Precedent already exists given that we have a potion-based caster (i.e. Alchemist).
someone mentioning archivist from the old WotC Heroes of Horror. That did make me think...we really don't have a scroll-based caster. I could see that being developed. Precedent already exists given that we have a potion-based caster (i.e. Alchemist).
I thought the Tome Eater Occultist worked as a scroll based caster. It seemed to have a lot of scroll abilities, though I may be misremembering something.
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I want playable versions of non player character classes -- that is, versions that some people would actually want to play, and I don't just mean The Perfectly Adequate Commoner, although that might be just the character for Homer Simpson. So, copying and pasting and somewhat editing from an old post:
I have 2 issues with the NPC classes: one is that they are inherently inferior by level to the PC classes, as if they were just cannon fodder (which can be done just as well and more honestly using lower level PC classes); the other is that levels of NPC classes are albatrosses on the characters in case you want to upgrade them to PC or DM-PC status without fudging. If I were both a DM and had the time to write some in-depth house rules (and remotely possibly I'll do it anyway, although certainly not on a phone like I am coincidentally doing for both the old post and this post), I would convert all Warriors to martial characters (usually Fighters) or sometimes something like Thug archetype of Rogue, but Aristocrats and Experts are more interesting.
For Aristocrats, I would make them similar to base class versions of Noble Scions, but with more flexible abilities. Archetypes would include Noble Scion (base class), Political Scion, Socialite, and Tycoon (gets abilities like Golden Prophet/Prophet of Kalistrade, but trades in the spells for more awesome non magical abilities), for starters. Aristocrats would range from diplomats to leaders to socialites. (Socialite class feature: Unencumbered by the Thought Process -- this gives them Skill Ranks based on CHA instead of INT, but all but 2 Ranks/Level must be spent on social skills, which usually means Charisma-based skills.) Supporting Feat or Trait available to all Aristocrat archetypes: Born with a Silver Foot in Your Mouth.
For Experts, I would make them into professional skill monkeys that do other have part of their advancement tied to stealth and backstabbing; they would still be able to take Rogue Tricks/Ninja Talents that do not depend upon Sneak Attack, and could also acquire Artificer Talents, and share the Rogue's Skill Unlock ability. Experts would range from battlefield engineers to detectives (not to be confused with the Bard archetype) to other professionals in dangerous lines of work to ordinary but talented people who become aware of grave threats and work against them behind the scenes. Expert archetypes would include Artificer (has an additional list of talents for item crafting), Battlefield Engineer (not the most awesome item crafter, but can build and repair mundane things including structures REALLY FAST), Detective (more hard-boiled than the Bard archetype, and less hampered tha the Sleuth Investigator archetype), Merchant, Politician (more grassroots than Political Scion above), and Professional.
Commoners would be among the least changed, but would gain 2 class features. Opportunity for Redemption would let you convert a level of another class into a level of Commoner every time you gain a level of Commoner. Untapped Potential would let you convert a level of Commoner into a level of another class every time you gain a level in the other class. Either one (not both at once) would work only once for each Character Level advancement. Thus, you could slowly rebuild a character -- thus, for instance, an Agent of the Grave could slowly become redeemed by getting back in touch with common life, even in the absence of someone willing or able to cast Atonement.
I have not yet figured out what to do with Adepts, since these are really lousy casters, but they have spells from at least 2 lists. I have been toying with the idea of having traditionally NPC classes (including Adept) be precursors to the PC base classes, which would essentially become prestige classes with really low entry requiremets (and the traditional NPC classes would become the equivalent of Racial Hit Dice for 1 HD creatures), but now this is getting into Pathfinder 2.0 territory.
Personally, the only class I could see happen is a Tinkerer/Gadgeteer/Artificer type of class, basically someone who build stuff that mimics spells.
I want playable versions of non player character classes -- that is, versions that some people would actually want to play, and I don't just mean The Perfectly Adequate Commoner, although that might be just the character for Homer Simpson. So, copying and pasting and somewhat editing from an old post:
I have 2 issues with the NPC classes: one is that they are inherently inferior by level to the PC classes, as if they were just cannon fodder (which can be done just as well and more honestly using lower level PC classes); the other is that levels of NPC classes are albatrosses on the characters in case you want to upgrade them to PC or DM-PC status without fudging. If I were both a DM and had the time to write some in-depth house rules (and remotely possibly I'll do it anyway, although certainly not on a phone like I am coincidentally doing for both the old post and this post), I would convert all Warriors to martial characters (usually Fighters) or sometimes something like Thug archetype of Rogue, but Aristocrats and Experts are more interesting.
For Aristocrats, I would make them similar to base class versions of Noble Scions, but with more flexible abilities. Archetypes would include Noble Scion (base class), Political Scion, Socialite, and Tycoon (gets abilities like Golden Prophet/Prophet of Kalistrade, but trades in the spells for more awesome non magical abilities), for starters. Aristocrats would range from diplomats to leaders to socialites. (Socialite class feature: Unencumbered by the Thought Process -- this gives them Skill Ranks based on CHA instead of INT, but all but 2 Ranks/Level must be spent on social skills, which usually means Charisma-based skills.) Supporting Feat or Trait available to all Aristocrat archetypes: Born with a Silver Foot in Your Mouth.
For Experts, I would make them into professional skill monkeys that do other have part of their advancement tied to stealth and...
I disagree with the idea of making the NPC classes into full classes. The reason they exist is that they provide relatively easier to stat up characters for PCs to interact with. The bar tender or town constable doesn't need the wealth of features a PC does, because its just extra work most of the time, if the PC's do not have any sort of combat interaction with them. Also...that is why town NPC's turn to PCs...they are legitimately more powerful.
There are too many tropes for one campaign setting to tackle!
There are too many tropes for one campaign setting to tackle!
Are there enough to make all campaigns different? Are there enough for players to make any kind of character they want?
I disagree with the idea of making the NPC classes into full classes. The reason they exist is that they provide relatively easier to stat up characters for PCs to interact with. The bar tender or town constable doesn't need the wealth of features a PC does, because its just extra work most of the time, if the PC's do not have any sort of combat interaction with them. Also...that is why town NPC's turn to PCs...they are legitimately more powerful.
Have the lowest level or two of the traditionally NPC classes not have much of the class features of traditionally PC classes, but instead offer background development material, along the lines of Traits. These are things that NPCs as well as PCs could use, and help give life to NPCs (I was going to say flavor, but some people, especially of the more Draconic persuasion, might take that the wrong way . . .). PCs and PC-calibre NPCs then "prestige out" into base classes (which as noted above are modified to work like prestige classes but with really low entry requirements); the more common NPCs don't. Another possibility (not mutually exclusive with the last) would be to offer Untapped Potential for traits, feats, etc., temporarily occupying the spaces taken by these with placeholders, but offering the potential to upgrade to PC traits, feats, etc. Later. This would also enable saving up for feats that cost more than 1 slot, although once again that's getting into Pathfinder 2.0 territory (as is the idea above of making base classes into really low entry requirement prestige classes).
A Herbalist--healer, druid, alchemist, poison user type. Somewhat covered by other classes...
a full caster bard. A spell singer. The idea of strumming an instrument while in melee always seemed odd to me. Bards could curse people and do some wild magic.
A SAD Dex character, like a mobile dancing debuff character. Maybe one with trance powers, akin to Rage. An Ekstasist.
A Jester class sounds great as well.
An Unlikely Hero class. Bumbling, but with great luck and a few talents, and a talking magical familiar. A small pool of hero points so the class can go to full BAB, or re roll a skill check.
{. . .
A SAD Dex character, like a mobile dancing debuff character. Maybe one with trance powers, akin to Rage. An Ekstasist.
{. . .}
I know what these terms are supposed to mean, but now I'e got this image stuck in my head of a crying dancer deuffing enemies in the course of a creepy tantrum . . . .
{. . .
A SAD Dex character, like a mobile dancing debuff character. Maybe one with trance powers, akin to Rage. An Ekstasist.
{. . .}I know what these terms are supposed to mean, but now I'e got this image stuck in my head of a crying dancer deuffing enemies in the course of a creepy tantrum . . . .
I suppose that would be Harley Quinn on a bad day, no?
how about dedicated gun using archetypes for the Magus, Inquisitor, and Alchemist
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I suppose that would be Harley Quinn on a bad day, no?{. . .
A SAD Dex character, like a mobile dancing debuff character. Maybe one with trance powers, akin to Rage. An Ekstasist.
{. . .}I know what these terms are supposed to mean, but now I'e got this image stuck in my head of a crying dancer deuffing enemies in the course of a creepy tantrum . . . .
You could do that with Urogue 4/Court Bard X pretty solidly, though it'd need a halfway decent CHA.
An Unlikely Hero class. Bumbling, but with great luck and a few talents, and a talking magical familiar. A small pool of hero points so the class can go to full BAB, or re roll a skill check.
Joxer the mighty, he's very tidy. . .
someone mentioning archivist from the old WotC Heroes of Horror. That did make me think...we really don't have a scroll-based caster. I could see that being developed. Precedent already exists given that we have a potion-based caster (i.e. Alchemist).
And it could tick the D6 divine box too....
^Teamwork feats exist, and from what I have read on these boards (as well as from looking at some of them), some of them are pretty good for what you want, but almost nobody takes them unless the players are something like a husband and wife team(*) and can count on both being able to stay in the same games (whether PFS or home games) for a long time, and even then it's pretty rare.
(*)Or either of the recently opened marriage variants, or at least signifiant others leading up to marriage or one of its variants.
would they get critical failures treated like a super critical that also blows up in their face?.... with traits that increase their crit failure chance? I would love to see the "this is why we can't give you nice things" type of character... made so that at high levels he kind of plays like a nice fighter... but "O s!%# he just killed the BBE by himself but he's bleeding on the ground naked... maybe we should revive him..."Joxer the mighty, he's very tidy. . .
An Unlikely Hero class. Bumbling, but with great luck and a few talents, and a talking magical familiar. A small pool of hero points so the class can go to full BAB, or re roll a skill check.
Some wild luck/unluck talents would be fun; everyone likes stories of crits and misses, right?
someone mentioning archivist from the old WotC Heroes of Horror. That did make me think...we really don't have a scroll-based caster. I could see that being developed. Precedent already exists given that we have a potion-based caster (i.e. Alchemist).
Played properly, Razmiran Priest Sorcerers are "scroll casters". Though I wouldn't say no to a class that did it's own riff on "casting" scrolls out of it's own spell slots. I fear for the inevitable Alchemical Allocation for Scrolls though. Script Restructure?
It might work as a summoner archetype. Or maybe hunter.
Half BAB, 9th-level divine caster
It's also weirdly hard to make a dark knight/death knight type character in Pathfinder. Heavily armored fighter with debuffing and necromancy and vampirism and so on.
Antipaladin is ok, but spends most of its time trying to be a perfect mirror of a paladin rather than exploring its own concepts.
It's also weirdly hard to make a dark knight/death knight type character in Pathfinder. Heavily armored fighter with debuffing and necromancy and vampirism and so on.
Antipaladin is ok, but spends most of its time trying to be a perfect mirror of a paladin rather than exploring its own concepts.
Not to mention that Cecil (FF4) and Arthas (Warcraft 3, before becoming the Lich King) are my initial thoughts for an iconic dark or death knight, and I'd consider them both to be Lawful (or at least neutral with Lawful tendencies), while the antipaladin is Chaotic.