Are there any tropes we are missing now?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 187 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

With the introduction of psychic magic in Occult Adventures I was wondering if, with the now near 40 classes and who-knows-how-many archetypes, if there are any fantasy or superhero tropes we can't cover now without 3pp material?

One that springs immediately to mind for me is some kind of shapeshifting class, essentially a druid but without spellcasting or an animal companion, or at least reduced casting in exchange for increased shapeshifting.

Any others you would want to play but don't feel like the rules are in place to support it fully?


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Gageteer type character?

Scarab Sages

Betelgeusian Pun Magic!!!

Liberty's Edge

True. We could compile a list here.

I'm surprised there wasn't some kind of gageteer class/PrC/even alchemist archetype released when Iron Gods came out. It's also in the same wheelhouse as the 3.5 Artificer which I know was very popular.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Mendeelevian Elementalism? I've actually done some work on that....

Liberty's Edge

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Mendeelevian Elementalism? I've actually done some work on that....

What exactly is it?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Shapeshifter (Not a Druid, more like a Mystique and Morph type. Non-Spellcasting)

Gadgeteer with Robot Companion.


Artificer, Summon Armour in a manner similar to Mindblade with weapon, person with nature spirit companion (basically an onmyoji but for druid rather than cleric), warrior who rages into a giant animal form, a divination based class that acts like an amazing spy, spellthief, truenamer, person who uses companions as weapons, amorpheous shapeshifting monster.

Scarab Sages

JamZilla wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Mendeelevian Elementalism? I've actually done some work on that....
What exactly is it?

You know - elemental magic based on these elements! :D

Liberty's Edge

Ah I see.

At first I was like... what? But I can actually see how you might associate Lead with the slow spell, Mercury with haste, Caesium with something explosive like fireball and so on. I don't know what your take is on it but I'd be interested to see.


Sword and gun fighter (a functional one).

White Necromancer

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Doomed Hero wrote:

White Necromancer

I really don't think Good-leaning Necromancers have to be their own special "thing." The morality of a form of magic depends on the metaphysics of the campaign setting.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

To combine the cleric and oracle to be a divine version of the arcanist.


A dedicated Telepath...kind of surprised this was not one of the psychic classes.


As regards the shapeshifter -
I reckon - since you can get a Druid Animal Companion by taking Mad Dog Barbarian, that you could have some sort of Wildshaped Rager Archetype, for a sort of non-spellcasting Shapeshifter.

The Investigator would be a good chassis for an alchemically controlled doppelganger-type shapeshifter (a la Mystique, where shapeshifting is more concerned with disguise and camouflage than turning into a flesh-tearing dire bear).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
MMCJawa wrote:
A dedicated Telepath...kind of surprised this was not one of the psychic classes.

What do you mean? Psychic gets detect thoughts, mindshield, mindtouch, overpowering mind, telepathic bond, synaptic shock, and telepathy, as class features.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
A dedicated Telepath...kind of surprised this was not one of the psychic classes.
What do you mean? Psychic gets detect thoughts, mindshield, mindtouch, overpowering mind, telepathic bond, synaptic shock, and telepathy, as class features.

This is what I meant about tropes.

I think with the introduction of psychic magic we can know build a perfectly good telepath that fits that theme. Similarly, although the Oracle/Cleric divine arcanist suggested above might be mechanically interesting, what niche would it fill that the two parents classes couldn't? (Which is an argument I would have for the arcanist itself anyway actually)

But I am not aware of a way to do a non-spellcasting shapeshifter (whether that's the warrior who turns into a dire bear as MiloV3 suggests or the doppelganger style for Idle Champion) or a gageteer type character.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
JamZilla wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
A dedicated Telepath...kind of surprised this was not one of the psychic classes.
What do you mean? Psychic gets detect thoughts, mindshield, mindtouch, overpowering mind, telepathic bond, synaptic shock, and telepathy, as class features.

This is what I meant about tropes.

I think with the introduction of psychic magic we can know build a perfectly good telepath that fits that theme. Similarly, although the Oracle/Cleric divine arcanist suggested above might be mechanically interesting, what niche would it fill that the two parents classes couldn't? (Which is an argument I would have for the arcanist itself anyway actually)

But I am not aware of a way to do a non-spellcasting shapeshifter (whether that's the warrior who turns into a dire bear as MiloV3 suggests or the doppelganger style for Idle Champion) or a gageteer type character.

Prophet or Mystic.

Where the Oracle is cursed with Divine revelation, perhaps because the gods don't want the Oracle revealing their divine truth, the Prophet or Mystic is chosen of the gods, perhaps due to being a descendant of a deity or simply the harbinger of an upcoming prophecy.

The Prophet or Mystic thus has a unique relationship with divine magic, able to alter and shape it at will and at higher levels even deny other divine spellcasters access to their source of power.


JamZilla wrote:

With the introduction of psychic magic in Occult Adventures I was wondering if, with the now near 40 classes and who-knows-how-many archetypes, if there are any fantasy or superhero tropes we can't cover now without 3pp material?

One that springs immediately to mind for me is some kind of shapeshifting class, essentially a druid but without spellcasting or an animal companion, or at least reduced casting in exchange for increased shapeshifting.

Any others you would want to play but don't feel like the rules are in place to support it fully?

Size-changing martials. Dai-Nippon-Jin, for example. Basically, any martial who can grow at will to Huge size or larger.

Liberty's Edge

Man, growing to huge as a full base character would be crazy.


Most notably missing is a tanking class, though I rather doubt that we will ever see one of those at this point.

Liberty's Edge

What do you mean Melkiador? There are plenty of classes that tank well although I will admit that AC as a means of tanking becomes more and more redundant the higher level you go.


weeaboo magik fightan?


JamZilla wrote:
What do you mean Melkiador? There are plenty of classes that tank well although I will admit that AC as a means of tanking becomes more and more redundant the higher level you go.

Any class with hp can soak damage. That's what the healer's shield other is for. A tanking class would be one that can control the battlefield in such a way as to direct attacks to itself.


Melkiador wrote:
JamZilla wrote:
What do you mean Melkiador? There are plenty of classes that tank well although I will admit that AC as a means of tanking becomes more and more redundant the higher level you go.
Any class with hp can soak damage. That's what the healer's shield other is for. A tanking class would be one that can control the battlefield in such a way as to direct attacks to itself.

Of course, the problem is that any class that does this also has to be tolerable for the PCs to fight. We don't need another Antagonize situation.


Well, I did say we would probably never get a tanking class. But it is certainly a trope the game is missing.

Sovereign Court

Snowblind wrote:
Gageteer type character?

You could always pull out the 3.5 Eberron book for the Artificer. (Interesting class - though only worked with sufficient downtime and if WBL is held to very closely.)


Effective Item users. (concepts in no particularly order)

Most make sense though not having.. since they'd probably need some form of free tools per day effect going on. representing the trinkets they pick up day to day and pile together to become useful.

UMD centric class (who uses wands, staves, and things like horn of blasting or horn of summons better)

Item, Alchemical item, crafted aoe, and poison uers (who are actually effecitve past low level) Probably toss in stuff like effective crafted items at higher level (AOE, Alchemical items, poisons) ability to pull tools out (rope, crowbar etc). Rather than class bomb's and infusions). I suppose sorta combining pathfinder chronicler's ability (but i suppose requiring free amounts per day. usuable on specific things and they fall apart at the end of the day and can't be sold or kept) Could also have a set of alchemical items that are similiar to spells I guess. that only they can use... but this is FFd20's alchemical item via chemist talking.

*alchemist can do it to a point, but it's still pretty uneffective and isn't really what I'm thinking of in my head. Which is pretty easy to make honestly. As a full class or a prestige to add flavor to other folks*

I suppose the ever popular old school item enchanter (though occultist in the playtest was pretty simiilar)

SP/SU style "blue mage"

probably quite a few things from Final Fantasy classes


Occultist is supposed to be the big item using class.


Melkiador wrote:
Occultist is supposed to be the big item using class.

Haven't read the actual version yet. But not really item using.. it seems more like they just had them as focuses for spells. Unless that's changed?

Thats more like the enchanter I was thinking of.. a lot like morrowind's enchanting skill.. which i made a character based off of. So I am really looking forward to reading the occultist when I can.


I didn't say it succeeded at being the item user but it made a try at it.


Melkiador wrote:
I didn't say it succeeded at being the item user but it made a try at it.

I'd say it succeded in being cool trope though.

Very Dresden (Assuming it hasn't changed much)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Unarmored weapon master. Get int or wis to ac, no crappy restrictions about needing one handed weapons and a free offhand. Full BAB. Seriously, am I the only one who wants to play Conan, vampire Hunter D, dread pirate Roberts, matrim couthon, perrin aybarra, an aiel or any other famous literary figures that didn't need armor or magic to hold their own?


Milo v3 wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
A dedicated Telepath...kind of surprised this was not one of the psychic classes.
What do you mean? Psychic gets detect thoughts, mindshield, mindtouch, overpowering mind, telepathic bond, synaptic shock, and telepathy, as class features.

I haven't had a chance to look at the psychic in detail yet, but my take was that it was a 9th level caster with a rather variable spell list.

What I was thinking would be cool would be a non-spellcasting 3/4 BAB class that spams mental attacks that shut down/charm/dominate enemies (dependent on level). Basically I want a viable mind focused character without the baggage of the psychic or mesmerist.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

A Marshal (tactician/battle commander)? You could make a case for the Cavalier but it's not very good for that job.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
A Marshal (tactician/battle commander)? You could make a case for the Cavalier but it's not very good for that job.

Out of curiousity, what more do you want it to do? The vanguard slayer treads similar ground.


Melkiador wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
A Marshal (tactician/battle commander)? You could make a case for the Cavalier but it's not very good for that job.
Out of curiousity, what more do you want it to do? The vanguard slayer treads similar ground.

One of the few things I liked about 4E was the Warlord. I'd love a class that had similar mechanics - martial, but able to both heal and support, and able to use his actions to give others action. It's that last bit I don't know how to balance in PF.


Yeah, it'd be hard to do the warlord in Pathfinder. 4E with it's second wind system made healers a lot more manageable.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Petty Alchemy wrote:
A Marshal (tactician/battle commander)? You could make a case for the Cavalier but it's not very good for that job.

A Cavalier + Sensei/Bard/Evangelist/Exemplar into Battle Herald does the job quite well.

That being said, the earliest you can get into Battle Herald is lv6... which, honestly, actually makes SENSE (since the Cavalier feels more like a Sargeant or Lieutenant, while the BH feels more like a Captain, Corporal, or even General).

---

A Gun-caster.

The Spellslinger is a good first step, but there's no dedicated gun-mage yet at all.

6th-level Caster or Alchemist who literally fires off spells with a gun.

---

A Master Spy (made Base Class) / Master of Disguise.

Bards & Rogues can do some of the disguising & sneaking that a Master Spy can, but there hasn't been a dedicated character like that yet, and DEFINITELY not the fantastic "hide from Scrying, immunity to thought-detection magic, literally alter your alignment while disguising, etc." things that a Master Spy can.

If the Devs pull their heads out of... somewhere I won't mention... then maybe the Vigilante will turn into this (which it should - the damn book is called ULTIMATE INTRIGUE after all).

There's no reason to NOT have a dedicated spy/infiltrator/conman/etc. from lv1 onward.

---

A Shadow-master.

Make the Shadowdancer into a Base Class.

Hell, the Vigilante could alternatively be a Shadowdancer - I still think it should be a Master Spy, but if the Vigilante turned into a Shadowdancer I wouldn't be upset in the slightest.

There's a Summoner Archetype of a caster for the Fetchling (I believe) that turns your Eidolon into a Shadow and makes you summon Shadow monsters instead of Elementals, Celestial, or Fiendish ones, but that's not all-inclusive in the slightest.

---

An Anti-Barbarian / Super-Bodyguard

Stalwart Defender needs love.

Barbarians are all about charging in head-first screaming "LET'S DO THIS! LEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JENNNNNNNNNNNNNNKIIIIIIIIINS!"

But there hasn't really ever been a stone-wall class; nothing that really screams "come at get me".

Sure, you can BUILD something like that, slowly, with things like... Come and Get Me (...ahem...), Stand Still, Combat Patrol, Bodyguard, Intercept Charge, etc., but there's never been a Class that does that at lv1 onward.

You're going to be mid-to-later levels by the time you can really do that, and in doing so you've burned pretty much all your Feats (so nothing like Weapon Focus, etc.).

Getting a Base Class version of the Stalwart Defender would be really, really nice.

---

A Spontaneous Alchemist.

Mixing with the Gageteer idea, this would be SICK.

I proposed mixing it with Master Spy in the Vigilante so you could build lots of Archetypes around it (probably switching out the Alchemy for things like Psychic spells, or an Arcane/Divine split to make a Mystic Theurge kinda class, etc.)

---

An honest-to-god Rage Prophet.

C'mon - we got the Dragon Disciple made into the Bloodrager; can we get a 6th-level Divine rage-mage to fill the niche of the Rage Prophet?

Sovereign Court

Melkiador wrote:
Yeah, it'd be hard to do the warlord in Pathfinder. 4E with it's second wind system made healers a lot more manageable.

There was a Marshall base class in 3.5. It worked pretty well. A bit on the weak side - but the mechanics worked. It was sort of a more martial version of bard without any spellcasting, but their buffs were more situational.


Orfamay Quest wrote:


Size-changing martials. Dai-Nippon-Jin, for example. Basically, any martial who can grow at will to Huge size or larger.

Some sort of Hank Pym/Ant-Man/Giant-Man physical size manipulator? + or - one size category at L1, maybe scale up or down from there?


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Yeah, it'd be hard to do the warlord in Pathfinder. 4E with it's second wind system made healers a lot more manageable.
There was a Marshall base class in 3.5. It worked pretty well. A bit on the weak side - but the mechanics worked. It was sort of a more martial version of bard without any spellcasting, but their buffs were more situational.

You could do a lot of it. Buffs and healing work fine mechanically, even though they might make the "martials are realistic" purists scream.

It's the "Using the other characters to attack" part that doesn't work so well in 3.0 and that was my favorite and the most flavorable part of the class.


The other trope I still want, which was mentioned early on, is the martial shapeshifter. Actual wild shape like different forms, for both combat and utility, not just claws for a few rounds/day or something.


Abjuration themed martial, Conjuration themed martial, divination themed rogue (since we do now have a divination themed warrior... even if it isn't as good as I'd hope), Bouncing Battler, Alex Mercer, Casting a Shadow, Dragon Rider, Gravity Master, Heart Beat-Down, Imagination-Based Superpower, Ironman, In a Single Bound, Make Me Wanna Shout, Paper Master, Power Copying, Power Nullifier, Power Parasite, Powered Armor, Self-Duplication, Sizeshifter, Space Master, Time Travel, Thinking Up Portals, Weaponized Teleportation, Arcane Trickster, Loremaster, Shadowdancer, Horizon Walker, Master Spy....


Austan Gavynus wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Size-changing martials. Dai-Nippon-Jin, for example. Basically, any martial who can grow at will to Huge size or larger.
Some sort of Hank Pym/Ant-Man/Giant-Man physical size manipulator? + or - one size category at L1, maybe scale up or down from there?

or Man-Mountain Baines, or Stormalong, or Paul Bunyan or whatever. It's a VERY standard trope, after all.

That's the idea, yes. It would be fairly easy to provide various size-change effects that are already in the books as simple (Ex) abilities (so they can't be affected by AMF). I'd prefer it if they dug into the old 1st Edition rulebook for the old giant size spell that made you something like 4 feet tall per caster-level-equivalent, so a 20th level character could reach Colossal size and stare down titans.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

or Man-Mountain Baines, or Stormalong, or Paul Bunyan or whatever. It's a VERY standard trope, after all.

That's the idea, yes. It would be fairly easy to provide various size-change effects that are already in the books as simple (Ex) abilities (so they can't be affected by AMF). I'd prefer it if they dug into the old 1st Edition rulebook for the old giant size spell that made you something like 4 feet tall per caster-level-equivalent, so a 20th level character could reach Colossal size and stare down titans.

Ha! Sorry, just saw "Ant-Man"; got Pym Particles on the brain. Now, if the Pathfinder mechanics weren't so tied to size categories, I could see +4'/level working. I was just thinking what would work for ease of the ruleset as-is. Of course, when you get to "gargantuan" and "colossal," it all seems to become abstract, anyway. But I like what you're thinking, that was basically the general idea I was going for. I figured +/- 1 size category at L1, and maybe add every two levels...of course, then what do you do with the class after Level 10?


Austan Gavynus wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

or Man-Mountain Baines, or Stormalong, or Paul Bunyan or whatever. It's a VERY standard trope, after all.

That's the idea, yes. It would be fairly easy to provide various size-change effects that are already in the books as simple (Ex) abilities (so they can't be affected by AMF). I'd prefer it if they dug into the old 1st Edition rulebook for the old giant size spell that made you something like 4 feet tall per caster-level-equivalent, so a 20th level character could reach Colossal size and stare down titans.

Ha! Sorry, just saw "Ant-Man"; got Pym Particles on the brain. Now, if the Pathfinder mechanics weren't so tied to size categories, I could see +4'/level working. I was just thinking what would work for ease of the ruleset as-is. Of course, when you get to "gargantuan" and "colossal," it all seems to become abstract, anyway. But I like what you're thinking, that was basically the general idea I was going for. I figured +/- 1 size category at L1, and maybe add every two levels...of course, then what do you do with the class after Level 10?

You could easily provide for further scaling bonuses, or even intermediate bonuses.

E.g.,
Level Bonus Notes
1 1 You count as large size
3 2 You count as huge size
5 3
7 4 You count as gargantuan size
9 5
11 6
13 7
15 8 You count as colossal size
17 9
19 10
20 capstone You count as "ridiculous" size

... and, of course, something similar in the other way, so you're "fine" at level 15 and "not there" at level 20.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
<stuff>

I think it'd probably be better/more manageable if it's rounds per day or minutes per day equal to your Level.

Lv1 +1 Size Category (small to med, med to large, large to huge - gotta remember Troxes)
Lv7 +2 Size Category (med to Huge)
Lv13 +3 Size Category (med to Garg)
lv19 +4 Size Category (med to Coloss)

It'd also help if the time to grow decreases as you level, based on the number of Size Categories you grow:

Lv1 Standard Action (1 Category)
Lv7 Move Action (1 Category), Standard Action (2 Categories)
Lv13 Swift Action (1 Category), Move Action (2 Categories), Standard Action (3 Categories)
Lv19 Immediate Action (1 Category), Swift Action (2 Categories), Move Action (3 Categories), Standard Action (4 Categories)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Capstone should give the Kaiju subtype.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

You could easily provide for further scaling bonuses, or even intermediate bonuses.

(Cut for space)
... and, of course, something similar in the other way, so you're "fine" at level 15 and "not there"...

Cool. I may play with this and see if I can get any of my players to playtest this gal/guy. Throw in weapon grows at certain levels, too?

1 to 50 of 187 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Are there any tropes we are missing now? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.