Undine

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Organized Play Member. 90 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 1 alias.


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Undine (Watersinger) Bard. Because I didn't want to wait for Kineticist to come out.

Now if only Bards got an archetype for Kineticist abilities that just so happened to stack with the Watersinger archetype...


I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, as long as your GM clears the whole "Leadership feat at level two" thing.

Though I would think twice about Bard. Since Dilettante Studies doesn't come into play with 5th level of the prestige class, you are going to have to slow your progression by quite a bit and then only pick an bonus to performance progression OR spell progression. Bard seems to be one of the few classes that are truly hurt with their split focus, as no other class seems to be truly split on what option to take with Dilettante Studies.

Bard would definitely be a flavorful choice (and who doesn't like Bards?), but just be aware that you won't get the actual 2 "pseudo-levels" from the prestige class ability. I'd just go with whatever concept you think you would enjoy the most (again, given the Leadership thing is cleared first).


darth_borehd wrote:

* Similarly, a "noble" class like the one in 3rd ed Dragonlance.

There is the Noble Scion prestige class, which may fill the "noble" class (with the flexbility to make it literally whatever kind of noble you want since it's a prestige class and it has an ability that allows you to build upon pre-existing class abilities).


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The paladin rummages through the dragon's hoard, but instead of filling his pocket he appears to be searching for a particular object. Grunts of his frustration can be heard by the members of his adventuring party, prompting the wizard to approach the holy warrior with concern. Normally the paladin would be cheerfully boasting about the group's latest accomplishment, he wasn't one to prioritize material possessions.

Wizard: What precisely are you searching for?

The paladin lets out a long sigh and turns to the wizard.

Paladin: I'm searching for the dragon's will, have you seen it? Now that we have slain it for its foul deeds, it's only proper procedure for us to find and execute his last will!

The wizard stops in his tracks and gives the paladin a blank look, then shuffles away without saying a word.

Now the real question is whether the paladin is searching for the dragon's will due to his dumped Wisdom or the strict and literal adherence to his alignment. Either way, searching for the last will and testament of a dragon, let alone the common bandit, seems ridiculous.


Lord Gadigan wrote:

As a player, not a feat I'd be likely to take for most characters.

As a GM, I like it a lot and am glad it's included. It's a no-save death-triggered damage-source, and it'd be a good upgrade for a horde of kineticist mooks working alongside some stronger villain.

Do not forget the Necklace of Fireballs.

I'm going to have to make some caster BBEG who uses fire spells to detonate his minions now. Just set up a huge reaction of Necklace of Fireballs and Parting Blast minions to space juuuuust right so if one goes boom, they all do. The explosion will be glorious.


ThornDJL7 wrote:


2) I can't find it, but I think there was a higher level version of grease that could specifically be ignited.

You're thinking of the Mythic augmented version of the spell. By expending two uses of Mythic Power, you can make the spell flammable.

So no, you cannot set the regular Grease spell on fire.


Exguardi wrote:
Then what is the point of "each time"? That implies a separate instance of activation. Otherwise it would be "Once per turn, you gain a +3 Dodge bonus to AC whenever you have moved a distance equal to or greater than your speed" or something to that effect, no?

I would imagine it comes into play with effects like the Quick Runner's Shirt, which allows you to (once per day) convert your swift action into another move action. So you could theoretically make a charge at your normal speed or higher to get a +3 bonus, and then active the shirt for another move action at your full speed for a second +3 bonus. Not sure how useful that is though (maybe setting up a second charge safely?)...

I would say you have to use separate actions in order to get mulitple bonuses, so charging at twice your normal speed would only grant you +3 as it was one movement equal to or greater than your normal speed.

OH, another thing, the Bladed Dash spell. Allows you to move up to 30 ft. If you cast it twice in a round as Magus, using Quickened to make it a Swift action and then using it for Spell Combat, you could double dip the bonus (as well as making a pretty cool thematic effect, despite being highly situational).


I personally love the new action economy model. Opens up a lot more options in my opinion (even if it is highly dependent on the GM for particulars).


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ohako wrote:
maybe come up with a different name like 'AM STATUS EFFECT' or something?

Given the array of status effects given, I think the "Nutcracker Kick" or the "Johnny Cage Special" would be more appropriate. I'm definitely feeling a "hit to the groin" vibe from this.


I think this could be covered by a Bluff check as Thanis said.

There's a Bluff option for Feign Harmlessness that might fit in the Giant Hunter's Handbook (which is a full round action). Combine that with the "convincing proof" of your wounds, you may not face any penalties (GM discretion). If you had dealt damage to the enemies, you'll take a -10 penalty to the Bluff check - but normal Bluff rules include up to a +10 bonus for having convincing proof of said lie.

Though keep in mind if you do go prone, you may provoke AoO's upon getting up... But I think this mostly falls under how your GM is willing to interpret these rules.


Gregory Connolly wrote:
Kyrrion wrote:
Theconiel wrote:
A group of us play Humans and Households.
Fixed it!
Just because someone else can make the same joke decades later doesn't mean the original didn't exist.

Well, looks like I'm going to need to google it then (as this is the first I have heard of this original source)!


Theconiel wrote:
A group of us play Humans and Households.

Fixed it!


You could see if your GM would allow you to choose a dog/wolf as a Divine Bonded Paladin mount. It'll eventually receive the celstial template and you're able to summon it to your side. You could flavor that as a divine spirit that you have close ties with.


threemilechild wrote:
Kyrrion wrote:
Silent Saturn wrote:


I like Bull Rushing as a tactic. Sure, you can't really build a whole character around it, but you dont' need to-- any zweihander martial type is already taking Power Attack and has feat slots to burn after that anyway. What better way to protect your squishier friends than by physically pushing threats away from them?
By physically pushing your friends away from the threat. Why make a maneuver check against that orc barbarian when your friend's wizard is a much more easier target?

Bull Rush requires very specific positioning, whereas the Pull and Reposition maneuvers are more likely to give you the ability to place an unconscious comrade back safely behind your own party lines.

Perform:Comedy check failed :(

Though honestly, I am now debating about making a character around the concept of "STAND BACK WIZARD, I GOT THIS!" - constantly positioning to stay between allies and foes to look for an excuse to bull rush my squishy friends away.

I mean hey, they're not taking damage.

Anyway, more on topic.

Undines. Most other people I've come across either don't care or are entirely unimpressed. I don't know anyone else who thoroughly enjoys the race (of course I don't get out much though).


Silent Saturn wrote:


I like Bull Rushing as a tactic. Sure, you can't really build a whole character around it, but you dont' need to-- any zweihander martial type is already taking Power Attack and has feat slots to burn after that anyway. What better way to protect your squishier friends than by physically pushing threats away from them?

By physically pushing your friends away from the threat. Why make a maneuver check against that orc barbarian when your friend's wizard is a much more easier target?


Maybe it's because scrolls are so much friendlier to prepared casters than spontaneous ones? Wizards get Scribe Scroll off the bat (letting them scroll up niche spells at will), and there are so many nice spells that a Cleric can choose to scroll whenever they have free time.

Sorcerers/Oracles? Stuck to whatever spells they chose (even for scribing scrolls themselves) or whatever scrolls they bought at full price/found. This item seems like it's supposed to help spontaneous casters utilize scrolls more efficiently.

Just my thoughts.


Ravingdork wrote:
Let's face it, many of the talents should be put into a "general" category accessable by all specializations, or else should be repeated among multiple specializations.

I wholeheartedly agree with the "General" category. Does anyone else feel like the specializations might as well just be archetypes?


Deadmanwalking wrote:


Entryhazard wrote:
Still, a talent tax is sad anyway, given that you may need to already burn half of your talents if you want to leverage your spellcasting. You may end up being a Magus without class features at this point.
This I agree with. At least for Light Armor...a talent for Medium wouldn't be the end of the world.

I don't think either should be a talent - I think if anything it should either be a Vigilante level dependent clause in the first Arcane Training, or subsequently unlocked through higher levels of Arcane Training. So basically, more along the lines of a Magus. They can cast in Medium and Heavy armor... eventually.

My biggest hang up with medium armor casting as a talent is the existence of mithral. Also, spending talents to "not suck" instead of "become awesome" generally feel bad.


Let's not forget the Alchemist's third arm.


Tiefling (Fiendflayer) Magus.

They have special archetype that allows them to create a weapon through an arcana, and it can be used with any as it doesn't replace anything.


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Proclaim a manly 1 on 1 bare knuckle boxing duel with a ruffian that has soiled the honor of you, your family, or you friends (or provoke said duel by becoming a ruffian who had soiled the honor of another, their family, or their friends), that is to take place on a worn down rickety 3 foot wide rope bridge that precariously hangs over an active volcano or other large precipice of which a fall would inevitably lead to either party's demise (bonus points if the valley is full of pointy stalagmites), then duke it out shirtless because if your body isn't a perfectly sculpted statue of muscle you're not manly enough.

I don't think you can go wrong with bare knuckle boxing.


Absinthium wrote:
Indeed. That was very forgetful of me. So, probably not worth it for the other effects>? Especially given arcane spell failure chance when casting the bard spells in medium armor.

There's always mithral though, would make medium armors count as light for spellcasting.


Bard - Liberal Arts?


Why not just this?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/eldritch-scion


I'mma have to dot this.


Kudaku wrote:
Duskbreaker wrote:
Also I've yet to find out how rapid shot works with the economy system

I don't think there's a ruling on it, Rapid Shot is very close to Two-Weapon Fighting. Using the TWF rules for Rapid Shot is probably not too far off the mark.

As for Manyshot, I have no idea.

What is the actual rule on TWF? You can add an off hand attack with your main hand attack once for each feat? So the regular TWF feat grants your first attack both main and off-hand, then your second attack uses both weapons with the Improved feat, and then all three with the Greater feat?

I'd probably do something like that for Rapid Shot + Manyshot, honestly, each one can net you one additional attack per round (Rapid Shot giving you penalties because it's so much easier to obtain make sense anyway).


Ring of Spell Knowledge - will allow you to cast a particular spell from the Magus class up to level 3 (though it will count as one level higher).

There's Wand Wielder arcana too, letting you spell combat using wands instead of casting spells.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Shadow Knight 12 wrote:
Skreeeeeeeeee wrote:
Similarly, anytime a chaotic character follows the laws, they should risk shifting to neutral/lawful alignments. Paid for your meal? Lawful. Didn't murder the maid who looked at you funny? Lawful. Wore clothes, thus following public indecency laws? Oh boy, you can bet that's a lawful act.
Chaotic is not Evil. Murder is an evil act, not a chaotic one. "There's a law against this" doesn't automatically make that thing chaotic when committed.

This a thread for the absurd and the stupid, it totally counts.

Antipaladin falls because he looked both ways before crossing the street.

Chaotic alignment has now been replaced with the YOLO alignment.


Take this Magus archtype
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classOptions/magus.ht ml

It's basically what you're doing now (but official!). You will also get to pick up some of the bloodline bloodrager spells too - I think you'd like the Undead bloodline.

You can also take up the Eldritch Heritage feat line - The level 9 Undead bloodline power summons skeletal hands from the ground to hinder and hurt enemies. It will cost you 3 feats total though (Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage, then Improved Eldritch Heritage).

For further necromancy, check out the Ring of Spell Knowledge which allows you to "learn" a spell from any class list up to level 3 (though it will count as one spell level higher if it's not on your class list, you can learn a spell up to level 4 if it is on your class's list). You can use this to snatch lower level necromancy spells the Magus normally does not have access to.


I swear there's a map app for tablets that may work better...

But I second the roll20.net. It's legit.


Probably not, since I don't think a lot of people actually have access to it yet.

If they do, they're probably busy running through it.

Of course I'm just dotting in the case someone does decide to drop in and give some juicy info while we wait for the book.

I also want to see how Paladin with Bard or Skald VMC may work.


The only thing I can possibly think you may be referring to his the Small vs Medium size damage die for weapons (where smaller sized versions of weapons for smaller size characters have a smaller damage die). Can you provide more information?


Snowblind wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Oddman80 wrote:

Ok... what if you have Weapon Finesse + Dervish Dance, and you carry a scimitar in one hand? lets say you have two claws and a bite attack, you could get dex to damage with 1 claw, and 1 bite at full attack bonus... or you could get Dex to damage on 1 scimitar at full attack bonus and 1 claw & 1 bite at -5 (unless you had multiatack, then only at -2)

Dervish dance does not say you only get the dex to damage on the scimitar, and if you have natural attacks, you are not carrying a weapon in the other hand.

That blatantly violates the RAI of dervish dance so hard that I wouldn't dare suggest that at a table unless the GM was indescribably permissive or I was wearing CRB proof armor.
It's really good armor though... even gives you DR 5/FAQs

The lack of immunity to sonic hurts though.

GMs can yell pretty loud when their players pull stuff like this.

Hey, you can at least go with Dervish Dancer Bards and retain Well-Versed. +4 to saving throws against Sonic effects is better than nothing.


You say nerdy and stubborn, so my first thought is some mystery that presents itself that this character alone must solve. A mystery that requires extensive research. The character's nerdiness should make such a task appealing and the stubbornness a source of determination to see it through.

I'm talking extensive research. So much research that the character will probably have to devote a long period of time, or maybe the rest of his/her life. Research that prevents adventuring. It will require careful translation of countless books in a lost tongue that require one's full attention to thoroughly comprehend. The kind of task that requires one to find the missing links between multiple different sources to arrive at the sole conclusion.

Of course, this is the assumption that nerdy is equating to booksmarts/scientist-like. If that's not the case I'm sorry for taking your time.


Chess Pwn wrote:
FAQ wrote:


FAQ

Yeah, that's what I thought.

But I think I know why I'm confused. I'm thinking about the Primal Hunter Barbarian archetype (thus no companion level to gain there) instead of the Primal Companion Hunter archetype.


I believe the rule is only if they both have an animal companion feature and it says it stacks.

There is a feat that requires the Expert Trainer Cavalier feature that allows you to use your total level to determine your mount level.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat

But Beast Rider loses that feature sadly...

Chess Pwn wrote:
yes

It does? I thought the Cavalier mount acted as the Druid companion, where all stats are derived from the character's Druid level (thus needing to refer to the total Cavalier level for stats).


Reknar wrote:
What about THIS guy - would he be perfect, or am I dreaming?

Looks perfect imo, especially with the Aid Another bonus granted from Order of the Dragon.


Hubert D'Amberville wrote:
It would totally work. You might not like the unintended consequences of it working, though. For a different 5 feats your Bard could get Whirlwind Attack, drink a Potion of Enlarge Person, and make those same foes in 25' radius dead ...

I don't think a single attack from the Bard is going to kill anything by the time you get all those feats...


Reknar wrote:
Kyrrion, would you use any particular Cavalier Archetype? Or Order?

Well, the Order depends on which aspect you want to focus on.

The Order of the Dragon will drive home the support-aspect (aka giving orders), at level 8 you can give +2 to Dodge AC, +2 to all attacks rolls, or a move action as an immediate action once per combat. Using challenge on a target will also give a boost to attack rolls on said target from allies as well. This Order is very much "This is my group. You do not mess with my group. If you mess with my group, we will hunt you down". Your character's actions will always be for the greater good of the group and you're not above sacrificing for those closest to you.

I would recommend this one based off what you have shared so far. A lot of the Orders kind tie into specific aspects of the character, I would browse a few if you ever have a moment. You might want to check out Order of the Hammer if your character is going to value strength over all or Order of the Staff if you want to show the close relationship to Lucian.

As for archetypes, I'm not sure one is entirely necessary. With challenge fitting your moment of "So ya boys think that just because I am spitting orders, I don't know how to fight? Come get some then!". The Tactician ability, Banner ability, and Strategy ability from the Order of the Dragon, you are very much a supportive figure on the battlefield who leads and commands.

That being said, there is the Strategist archetype is the only one I can see fitting right now. You get more uses of Tactician and trade Expert Rider (Handle Animal bonus regarding your mount) for Drill Master (basically Tactician that takes 10 min to use but lasts 10+ minutes, costs 1 challenge use). Drill Master also requires you to be visible and audible by your allies to be effective, so it quite literally is the act of barking orders.


Rennaivx wrote:
It definitely screams skald rather than bard to me. I don't think there's anything you have to dip into to make the concept work, although two levels of Slayer with the Vanguard archetype to pick up the ability to share teamwork feats could actually be highly appropriate. It'd also net you studied target and a nice initiative bonus, and it has full BaB.

Another possible substitution is Cavalier. Personally, I've always thought the Cavalier to be the more "sergeant" type of class than Bard or Skald.


You could use an Iron Brush, see ultimate combat eastern weapons; http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/easternArmorAndWea pons.html

As for class and build, first thing I'm thinking is Bard with the Scribe Scroll feat. Instead of your classic normal scrolls, flavor each one as a different work of art. If you go this route, I'd suggest the Magician archetype to allow yourself a larger spell selection. You could also forgo Scribe Scroll and use the Magician's archetype ability Arcane Bond for a wand that's flavored as a paintbrush.

Using the wand? You mean drawing a picture into reality right in front of everyone's eyes. Bonus you can have a buckler/shield like you wanted.

This may be a stretch though. It's all I got, sadly.


Lune wrote:

Kyrrion: Sure, it can work. But have you checked the maker's mark on all of your magical gear? What brand do you wear? Doesn't that work both ways though? I don't recall reading that all magic items are made by a caster (though that's a detail I would've skimmed past anyway to be fair).

I'm just pointing out the possibility exists that you don't necessarily need a caster for magic items. You could have an edgy master blacksmith who doesn't need you or your group's crap who can make magic items himself.

Master smith is an typeof character (not necessarily as PC mind you) that I am quite fond of, to be honest.


Lune wrote:
So if this is no magic to help the martial character what about magic items? I mean... you know who made those things, right?

Wouldn't this work?


Mystic Theurge pops to mind, Red Mages using some white and black magic (divine and arcane respectively?).

Though to incorporate the melee aspect, it seems like you'd want to go Magus 7 (for the Broad Study arcana at 6 and medium armor casting at 7) and then Cleric 3. This should end up around 12 BAB at 20, but with MT maxed sounds like you can use combine spell with spell combat/spellstrike which sounds wonderfully fun. Get 6th level Magus casting and 7th level Cleric.

Probably won't work, but that's all I can think of at the moment. Been playing Bravely Default recently, and their Red Mage class favored regaining of Brave Points (or earning extra turns if you haven't played).


Cavalier might work for this idea, though for roleplaying you'll want to hold off using the challenge ability for those tough spots where you want the extra boost.

Could also work for any of the raging classes (Skalds, Bloodragers, Barbs), just treating the rage effects as the extra boost. Or be a "selfish" Bard using Inspire Greatness/Heroics for those moments.

I don't know anything that mechanically fits and this is sub-optimal, but this is a way you could roleplay this character to fit my idea of the description you've given.


Check the Pata. Literally says it's an upgraded version of the Punching Dagger where it is a blade stemming from a gauntlet. You also cannot be disarmed while wearing it. It is an exotic weapon though.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/gladiatorWeapons.h tml#pata


Imbicatus wrote:
lemeres wrote:


But you can still do pretty well, even with unarchetyped improved familiars. Earth elementals, if they are allowed to take on humanoid forms, could just grab simple weapons and copy your playstyle. Throw some armor on that (aim for 0 ACP so nonproficiency is not an issue) and you have a sturdy little guy following you around. ....

Non proficency is never an issue for an eldritch guardian, proficency feats are combat feat, so the familiar shares them.

Class proficiencies do not count as feats, so I do not think they can be passed over with Share Training.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4aa&page=3?Fighters-swapping-out-armor-pr oficiency

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
None of the classes refer to armor or weapon proficiencies as feats or as bonus feats. The Armor Proficiency feat text is in error (an error inherited from 3.5), and shouldn't be used to justify something that's not actually a feature of any of the classes.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am still curious of the intent behind this change.

Intuitive ruling.

I seriously thought this was the way it was supposed to work prior to reading the FAQ. It never made sense to me that having an SLA (which doesn't even really count as a spell to begin with since you don't need any of the components) would put you on the same level as someone with X-level spellcasting.


Widjit wrote:

I'm not finding any stats on the Pata but it's listed in sCoreForge but I would need to take another feat to be able to use it.

Looking for an alternative to that to save the feat if possible.

Punching Dagger. It's literally a sized down version of the Pata (which is akin to an arm blade, it's pretty much a gauntlet with a short sword at the end of it).

PRD Link - http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/gladiatorWeapons.h tml#pata

The punching dagger should still give you the feel of Talon's weapon.


Widjit wrote:
Kyrrion wrote:

Hrm... I assume we're going for more flavor than function

You're probably going to want to see if you can use a Pata, that will mimic the blade he has on his hand. Otherwise you can try going for Knife-Master Rogue archtype and use a Punching Dagger.

Take the Bleeding Attack Rogue talent to replicate his Q.

To replicate his bladed cloak, the closest thing I know of is the Slashing Cape in Ultimate Equipment, this will let you attack everyone within 5 feet as a full-round action (kinda mimics his ult...).

For Rake, you can take Quick Draw and throw returning weapons just as a ranged back up.

Not sure how to mimic his gap closer, other than just using Acrobatics for tumbling.

That's all I got.

That's more than I had so far! Though I'm thinking the Shadowdancer might be a good way to eventually get his invisibilty ult by hiding in plain site!

Rogues can get an Advanced talent for that (but you have to pick up another talent for Favored Terrain and you must be in said Favored Terrain). Or you can take the Ninja Trick for using Invisibility on yourself (though this is a standard action).

You might consider going Ninja actually, you won't be tied down to Knifemaster to allow yourself to use the pata. You can get a Ninja Trick for throwing tons of shuriken at once for Rake or the vanishing trick for invisibility (though I think it's a standard action to use).

Shadowdancer might work, both mechanically and flavor-wise (with his title being the Blade's Shadow). in fact, the level 4 dip for Shadow Jump could work close to his gap closer. Though I wouldn't go farther than that, Shadowdancer doesn't have much in terms of weapon damage which deviates from Talon.