Are we not discussing the change to Animal Soul? That being “Benefit: You can choose not to allow spells and effects to effect you if they would not be capable of affecting both your original creature type and the animal creature type.”
A feat that makes you immune to Favored Enemy, Bane and any spell with the word "Person" in it...
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Are we not discussing the change to Animal Soul? That being “Benefit: You can choose not to allow spells and effects to effect you if they would not be capable of affecting both your original creature type and the animal creature type.”
A feat that makes you immune to Favored Enemy, Bane and any spell with the word "Person" in it...
We dont need to here, because it is not a legal option for PFS.
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I'm kinda use to balance changes in games so a lot of the errata doesn't surprise me. I have several characters who need to be rebuilt but it sounds like the new guide to organized play is going to help out with that.
Luckily rebuilding actually lets me play a certain character again. I had been waiting on an Arcanist to know if a lot of different wondrous items worked or not because of the whole prepared vs spontaneous thing. I don't think that was really touched on so changing the character entirely might be for the best.
I do like some of the buffs to certain classes as well. Shaman getting summon natures ally is cool though I'm surprised I haven't seen much from them in the first place. They are actually one of the better Animate Dead users.
My pummeling, battle cry, parrying, contingent action wand using brawler seems to be looking less hot though. Back to the drawing board on that one.
Okay, but lets just be clear here. Picaroons are borked on a lot of swashbuckler stuff even before the errata because they didn't trade away a lot of features that just don't work when you make them a TWF.Yep, Picaroons are just borked then. Especially dwarves using the Favored Class bonus, which now makes no sense.So wait, back to Slashing Grace a moment, does the finessability of the weapon go away if you use an off-hand weapon or do you just lose Dex bonus to damage?The way it's worded suggests that you lose all of the aforementioned benefits if you break the conditions.
So, if it's only finessable because of Swashbuckler's/Champion's Finesse, then you would lose that benefit (since you're no longer treating it as a one-handed piercing weapon).
It's worse now than ever. There's no point to being one when you can just be a Pistolero with TWF (and even then you're stuck with MAD-induced mediocrity). Unless you can Quick Draw as part of a full attack which I'm pretty sure you can't.
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... Unless you can Quick Draw as part of a full attack which I'm pretty sure you can't.
A Pistolero with Quickdraw still has gunslinger's initiative right? Still pulls weapon #1 as part of his initiative check??
And Quickdraw is a free action, so no problem in full attack away.
Hell even a tiefling with a tail can pull at least 1 of his guns as a Swift during a full attack.
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It's worse now than ever. There's no point to being one when you can just be a Pistolero with TWF (and even then you're stuck with MAD-induced mediocrity). Unless you can Quick Draw as part of a full attack which I'm pretty sure you can't.Okay, but lets just be clear here. Picaroons are borked on a lot of swashbuckler stuff even before the errata because they didn't trade away a lot of features that just don't work when you make them a TWF.Yep, Picaroons are just borked then. Especially dwarves using the Favored Class bonus, which now makes no sense.So wait, back to Slashing Grace a moment, does the finessability of the weapon go away if you use an off-hand weapon or do you just lose Dex bonus to damage?The way it's worded suggests that you lose all of the aforementioned benefits if you break the conditions.
So, if it's only finessable because of Swashbuckler's/Champion's Finesse, then you would lose that benefit (since you're no longer treating it as a one-handed piercing weapon).
Quick Draw (Combat)
You can draw weapons faster than most.Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Also, if what you said were true, archers would be screwed.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It's worse now than ever. There's no point to being one when you can just be a Pistolero with TWF (and even then you're stuck with MAD-induced mediocrity). Unless you can Quick Draw as part of a full attack which I'm pretty sure you can't.Okay, but lets just be clear here. Picaroons are borked on a lot of swashbuckler stuff even before the errata because they didn't trade away a lot of features that just don't work when you make them a TWF.
Except that as a picaroon, prior to this errata, you are already having to take gunsmithing, having to spend feats / money to be able to reload, losing the swashbuckler precision damage, etc. In fact you are already so feat poor and MAD that I don't see where you are getting the feats to get slashing grace and the dex to benefit from it. Personally I plan on just taking a keen rapier to crit fish.
@claudekennilol: so if you have enough off-hand weapons to QD and drop after each use, you never have to take a main hand penalty to fighting with two weapons? Can a Titan Mauler barbarian two-hand attack with his greataxe with full bonuses then whip out a shortsword for the off-hand attack, drop it and make another two-handed iterative?
Except that as a picaroon, prior to this errata, you are already having to take gunsmithing, having to spend feats / money to be able to reload, losing the swashbuckler precision damage, etc. In fact you are already so feat poor and MAD that I don't see where you are getting the feats to get slashing grace and the dex to benefit from it. Personally I plan on just taking a keen rapier to crit fish.
Dipping into UC Rogue for the Weapon Focus talent, then Rapid Reload and a bunch of alchemical cartridges. And I wouldn't call Dex primary, Cha secondary MAD on the order of, say, a Warpriest or a Kensai Magus.
My other idea was a rapier-pistol Picaroon with Butterfly's Sting to confirm the crits with a double-barreled pistol in the offhand, but I thought that was too minmaxy.
toughness and extra ki and extra anything else don't modify a mechanic that has a set regain lower than the max. HP goes to full, ki goes to full, extra anything else goes to full. when you take the feat you gain three more in your pool right then. Then when you prepare spells you gain 3+1/2 your level.
That is a terrible comparison because hit points dont work like the arcanist feature does. However I think most people know the correct way so I am going to let it go. Run it however you want at your table.
Slashing Grace allows light weapons, but can only be used if other hands are unoccupied.
So, no dual-wielding? :(
Wouldn't work. Butterfly's Sting only works with melee attacks.
Hell, you're right. Back to the drawing board. Again.
So, no dual-wielding? :(
No.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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@claudekennilol: so if you have enough off-hand weapons to QD and drop after each use, you never have to take a main hand penalty to fighting with two weapons? Can a Titan Mauler barbarian two-hand attack with his greataxe with full bonuses then whip out a shortsword for the off-hand attack, drop it and make another two-handed iterative?
Except that as a picaroon, prior to this errata, you are already having to take gunsmithing, having to spend feats / money to be able to reload, losing the swashbuckler precision damage, etc. In fact you are already so feat poor and MAD that I don't see where you are getting the feats to get slashing grace and the dex to benefit from it. Personally I plan on just taking a keen rapier to crit fish.
Dipping into UC Rogue for the Weapon Focus talent, then Rapid Reload and a bunch of alchemical cartridges. And I wouldn't call Dex primary, Cha secondary MAD on the order of, say, a Warpriest or a Kensai Magus.
My other idea was a rapier-pistol Picaroon with Butterfly's Sting to confirm the crits with a double-barreled pistol in the offhand, but I thought that was too minmaxy.
If you are dipping UC Rogue, you could dip to 3, and get dex to damage that way.
How are you reloading? You need a free hand for that.
Also, don't forget you are losing precise strike any round you fire your gun. So using slashing grace to apply precise strike to non piercing weapons is not going to work very well.
This is what I mean by the Picaroon was borked even before the errata. It is still a fun class, and I am building one, but it has a lot of problems.
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@claudekennilol: so if you have enough off-hand weapons to QD and drop after each use, you never have to take a main hand penalty to fighting with two weapons? Can a Titan Mauler barbarian two-hand attack with his greataxe with full bonuses then whip out a shortsword for the off-hand attack, drop it and make another two-handed iterative?
No, that's not what that means at all. If you're two-weapon fighting you're taking the same penalties regardless of whether or not you switch weapons.
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So, no dual-wielding? :(Slashing Grace allows light weapons, but can only be used if other hands are unoccupied.
...or Claws, or Bites, or Gores, or with Shields, or holding a Feather, or snapping your fingers, or using a different weapon for iterative attacks.
Basically, it's a waaaay more restrictive version of Dervish Dance now, and requires more feats to use.
If you are dipping UC Rogue, you could dip to 3, and get dex to damage that way.
So I had hoped (noticed that was redundant in the original build, now might be unworkable for different reasons if SG makes the finesse stop working altogether the moment you use your off-hand for anything but rude gestures)
How are you reloading? You need a free hand for that.
Sheathe waraxe, reload, fire, reload, Quick Draw waraxe.
No, that's not what that means at all. If you're two-weapon fighting you're taking the same penalties regardless of whether or not you switch weapons.
But I could in theory still get strength and a half to my main-hand weapon if I attack that way?
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Ah, but you would be using two weapons.
So, you attack, with say, your Kukri, for which you have Slashing Grace for, and then you drop your Kukri, Quickdraw a different Kukri, attack, and the feat now fails to function.
You select a type of weapon and it applies to all weapons of that type. Quickdrawing a new kukri should work fine if you wanted to do so.
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You select a type of weapon and it applies to all weapons of that type. Quickdrawing a new kukri should work fine if you wanted to do so.Ah, but you would be using two weapons.
So, you attack, with say, your Kukri, for which you have Slashing Grace for, and then you drop your Kukri, Quickdraw a different Kukri, attack, and the feat now fails to function.
nope, because then you'd be attacking with two weapons, which is expressly forbidden in the feat.
But you can't Quickdraw multiple SG-compatable weapons of different types? OK...
I don't think the rules work as you think re: "single weapon" reference.
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well they did say they wanted it out before gen con so that they could sort it out some before the con. so hopefully they will spend a few days at the start of next week answering some of these questions maybe?
The week before Gen Con. What a good time for this kind of sorting out.
I've been spending part of my weekend gathering them, anyway; I'm hoping we of the PDT can discuss them before Gencon (no promises, we are uber-swamped as you might expect, but I'll try). Honestly, I'm just glad it wasn't right before Gencon because it gives at least a little time.
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I've been spending part of my weekend gathering them, anyway; I'm hoping we of the PDT can discuss them before Gencon (no promises, we are uber-swamped as you might expect, but I'll try). Honestly, I'm just glad it wasn't right before Gencon because it gives at least a little time.well they did say they wanted it out before gen con so that they could sort it out some before the con. so hopefully they will spend a few days at the start of next week answering some of these questions maybe?
The week before Gen Con. What a good time for this kind of sorting out.
yeah, I've been super impressed by how much you've done already. and I totally understand that you guys are busy for the con, we have the errata, that's good for sure, anything more is super bonus
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yeah, I've been super impressed by how much you've done already. and I totally understand that you guys are busy for the con, we have the errata, that's good for sure, anything more is super bonusI've been spending part of my weekend gathering them, anyway; I'm hoping we of the PDT can discuss them before Gencon (no promises, we are uber-swamped as you might expect, but I'll try). Honestly, I'm just glad it wasn't right before Gencon because it gives at least a little time.well they did say they wanted it out before gen con so that they could sort it out some before the con. so hopefully they will spend a few days at the start of next week answering some of these questions maybe?
The week before Gen Con. What a good time for this kind of sorting out.
I just want to do more, even though I know I might not be able to. I've been in the situation of waiting for errata, or for clarifications, as a player, and I know how it feels. Thank you for your patience, and I'll see what I can stir up!
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If you have a moment when talking to the PDT, and don't mind a suggestion, something that might fix some of the issues with the new SG is to just remove the Dex to damage for off-hand when TWF (but making it not super optimal for many builds.) This change would allow builds (Like Fox's well backgrounded RMA style sawtooth sabre, Savage Technologist [who also kinda got hosed by this], Picaroon, and many others to function, without the excessive power climb of negating Double Slice [which I have heard it argued to do] and overshining STR TWF builds as bad.) It could even then allow Double Slice to be errata'd to work with SG to do Dex to damage on off hand. Or you know not as the design team sees fit. I do however encourage a look at the affected archetypes that it seems were devastated by this build without intent.
Just a few suggestions from your friendly local Asmodean Contract Lawyer.
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I've been spending part of my weekend gathering them, anyway; I'm hoping we of the PDT can discuss them before Gencon (no promises, we are uber-swamped as you might expect, but I'll try). Honestly, I'm just glad it wasn't right before Gencon because it gives at least a little time.
Please make Pack Flanking a combat feat, or at least explain why it isn't. My thread about it is HERE. Others feel free to click and hit the FAQ button if you feel the same.
But I could in theory still get strength and a half to my main-hand weapon if I attack that way?
No, not at all. You have to declare what kind of attacks you're making when you start. You definitely can't use a weapon in two hands then decide you want to start two-weapon fighting. If you're still confused by this or have further questions I suggest you start a thread in the rules section as then you'll have a topic devoted to this thread of thought.
Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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If you could revisit the errata for the Arcanist's Consume Spells feature and the Consume Magic Items exploit, it would be much appreciated, it has been mentioned in the product forum thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sjzm&page=5?ACG-Errata), and I agree that the logic behind this change doesn't seem to make sense. Both of the Consumes already consume limited resources (spell slots and magic items respectively), and the limit of cha-mod per day seems punitively low (especially with 0 difference between 5 cha and 12 cha in daily uses)....
If it needed to be limited, 3 + Cha Mod would have been a better value. At least then there is a penalty for dumping Charisma hard.
It is worst for the Arcanist (Occultist) since their Summons take way more Arcane Reservoir points than anything else. I'm still looking it over, but it appears that my Occultist either accepts the he never gets more than two of the summons a day, invests even more feats into the summons, or rebuilds as a Brown Fur Transmuter.
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Or 1 + CHA mod, even. This is pretty rough. I had to dump strength AND wisdom on my occultist and reduce a 20 int to 19 in order to get CHA to 14. And that only gives me 2, as opposed to 1 if I stayed with 7.
If it has to be that limited, maybe the amount of points we get when consuming spells and items should increase, or we can get max points at the beginning of the day.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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How does the Slashing Grace limitation against two weapons work with a dagger-pistol double-weapon. It's still only one object, so you might be able to get around it that way. Dagger is already slashing, so that's not an issue, but getting the dex-to-damage is.
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Hello, i need some help with my "heavy wounded" character.
He is swash1/fighter(two weapon warrior) 2 with two weapon slashing grace falcatas. Right now even with slashing grace retrain he is useless because of 7 str. What can i do to him? May i totaly rebuild him?
Wait until Monday when the new Guide to Organized Play comes out with more comprehensive retraining rules.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The week before Gen Con. What a good time for this kind of sorting out.
Oh good, sarcasm. That'll really help the situation.
I don't know that there's anything I can do to help the situation, but suggestions are welcome.
The sarcasm came from (1) my belief that these rules changes are all pretty good and in some cases very desirable, but (2) frustration that there are going to be players at my PFS tables that I'll be delivering the bad news to, just as they sit down to play. (I hope. That's the best situation. "Just as they open up on an opponent" is another possibility.) And if there are further clarifications between now and Thursday, I'll be making rulings based on old information anyways.
I understand the desire to get this errata out before Gen Con. But getting these changes out two weeks ago, OR waiting two more weeks, would have dramatically decreased the angst-factor.
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The week before Gen Con. What a good time for this kind of sorting out.Oh good, sarcasm. That'll really help the situation.I don't know that there's anything I can do to help the situation, but suggestions are welcome.
The sarcasm came from (1) my belief that these rules changes are all pretty good and in some cases very desirable, but (2) frustration that there are going to be players at my PFS tables that I'll be delivering the bad news to, just as they sit down to play. (I hope. That's the best situation. "Just as they open up on an opponent" is another possibility.) And if there are further clarifications between now and Thursday, I'll be making rulings based on old information anyways.
I understand the desire to get this errata out before Gen Con. But getting these changes out two weeks ago, OR waiting two more weeks, would have dramatically decreased the angst-factor.
If I have time after prepping the scenarios I'm running I'll try to throw together something that consolidates the changes for PFS-legal character options. Something like a 'before-after' with the full text of the changed items.
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I don't know that there's anything I can do to help the situation, but suggestions are welcome.The sarcasm came from (1) my belief that these rules changes are all pretty good and in some cases very desirable, but (2) frustration that there are going to be players at my PFS tables that I'll be delivering the bad news to, just as they sit down to play. (I hope. That's the best situation. "Just as they open up on an opponent" is another possibility.) And if there are further clarifications between now and Thursday, I'll be making rulings based on old information anyways.
I understand the desire to get this errata out before Gen Con. But getting these changes out two weeks ago, OR waiting two more weeks, would have dramatically decreased the angst-factor.
Making sure that the players know that there are changes and where to find them is a good start. E-mail them or whatever means you use to communicate to them and let them know that you will apply them next session. Since the new Guild to Organized Play is due out in a few hours, have everyone there 30 minutes early so that they are all on the same page for changes and can update their characters if needed.
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Making sure that the players know that there are changes and where to find them is a good start. E-mail them or whatever means you use to communicate to them and let them know that you will apply them next session. Since the new Guild to Organized Play is due out in a few hours, have everyone one there 30 minutes early so that they are all on the same page for changes and can update their characters if needed.
None of this however helps out at GenCon, which is what specifically Chris is talking about.