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33. Oh, oh! A Bag of Holding becoming a Bag of Devouring if you put something sharp and pointy in it like weapons. :)
Laughs, when one of my old DMs brought in a Klingon for a one shot and my character gave him a bag of holding as a 'peace offering' of sorts I don't know this fact. So when I had my character tell him he could put all his sharp pointy weapons into the bag to store them... everyone looked at me like 'what in the world are you doing'. I then tried having my character explain his mistake and told him that his weapons were gone... and the Klingon check and lost his nose. That was admittingly a bit embarrassing (I was new to 2e AD&D).
I miss pre thaco system. DM had a chart level vs ac. Players rolled and DM decided the hit. Seemed to help keep the mystery in things.
35. A frail little venerable wizard/druidess could morph into a huge monster without a problem.
I know, I know, the changes to shapeshifting are to prevent the SAD imbalance. But they do cut back on some pretty cool options. Be nice if there was a middle ground.
36. Spiked chains oughta get reach. Or even get some really minor benefit, like "no penalty when using Lunge". I dunno. But I liked them being a cool and very useful weapon.
37. Bloat. I mean real bloat. I miss the 3.5 days when there were a billion overpowered prestige/base classes, spells, feats...it was a time of madness and chaos, but also kinda a time of awesome. ;D
38. Wild mages. The 3.5 wild mage prestige class made me want to punch every designer at WOTC in the face, repeatedly.
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In the spirit of bringing magic back down to manageable levels:
39. In general, magic items are pried from the hands of your dead enemies, found as parts of a long-forgotten treasure, or found in other similar ways. You don't get them from the express lane. And enemies should USE these items...don't have them keep their sword +3 in a chest while they swing a rusty piece of tin at the PCs. The magic mart is all but eliminated...and when they exist, their inventory tends to be almost exclusively one-use items such as scrolls and potions.
40. The only item creation feats allowed adventurers are Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion. There are NPCs that can create other magical items, but they are very rare, and they devote their lives to crafting these items. It's not something they do in between adventuring sessions.
- As something of a balance, healing potions can be created for any of the healing spells (Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds, and Heal), despite the fact that they might exceed the usual spell level 3 limitation for potions. The cost to create healing potions is also greatly reduced, using the formula [spell level x caster level x 10].
41. All the workarounds for spellcasters to exceed their normal number of spells memorized per day are eliminated, with the exception of bonus spells granted by casting stat.
42. Likewise, all methods for prepared spellcasters to cast spontaneously are eliminated. As are all methods for spontaneous spellcasters to gain new spells known.
- Spontaneous spellcasters gain access to new spell levels at the same rate as their prepared counterparts.
43. There is no concentration check for damage taken while attempting to cast a spell. Even a single point of damage disrupts the spell.
44. Spells take 10 minutes per spell level per spell to prepare. Cantrips take 1 minute to prepare each. The arcane discovery Fast Study is eliminated.
More importantly than any of those, the entire spell list needs to be gone through pretty thoroughly, with probably the vast majority of spells either having their spell levels adjusted or being cut altogether.
I too miss spheres for priests. I also miss the uniqueness of class spells. Nowadays i'd guess 75% of spells are found on arcane and divine spells lists.
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38. Wild mages. The 3.5 wild mage prestige class made me want to punch every designer at WOTC in the face, repeatedly.
I feel your pain. On the bright side, did you know that Wild Mages are a core Sorcerer Archetype in 5th Edition? It's way better, too (though still not quite as good as 2nd Edition's).
36. Spiked chains oughta get reach. Or even get some really minor benefit, like "no penalty when using Lunge". I dunno. But I liked them being a cool and very useful weapon.
I saw them explain that change somewhere around here. The spiked chain was too good all-around as was, so they had to trim something.
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45. Initiative As a Skill: ...Look, Star Wars: Saga Edition is technically an older edition, it came out two years before Fourth Edition and three years before Pathfinder, it counts! =p
But yeah. Initiative in Saga Edition was a skill. Because it's a class skill for all five classes, you could train it for a +5 bonus. Combine that with Skill Focus (Initiative) for another +5, get really lucky rolling stats, and pick a species that grants a Dex bonus, and boom. You have +15 Initiative, and you haven't even left Corellia yet.
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24. Class/race restrictions. Okay, not for every campaign, but I do enjoy the flavor sometimes. It's a more Tolkienian style that emphasizes more the mental differences between the species.
This is one part of D&D BECMI/1st/2nd Edition that I can do without. D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder already push things that way enough with ability score modifiers -- you wouldn't make a Dwarven Sorcerer (except for one with the Empyreal or maybe Sage Bloodline) because you end up with a lousy build, which gets only somewhat less lousy with high point buy. Pathfinder also has racial archetypes.
That said, I wouldn't mind some guidelines based upom cultural expectations -- I'll deal with this below (after responding to other stuff).
25. Prestige classes being awesome. No, not as awesome, but they should at least not suck.
Yes, and they should be better thought through (with several of them I am just going what were they thinking? -- this either doesn't make sense or is a trap.
While we're at it, put the prestige in prestige classes. They should be attached to specific philosophies and/or organizations. For things like these that are more generic, create a small number of Advanced Classes that give things like prestige classes that are not associated with a particular philosophy or organization and not easily shoehorned into archetypes.
In the spirit of bringing magic back down to manageable levels: {. . .}
More importantly than any of those, the entire spell list needs to be gone through pretty thoroughly, with probably the vast majority of spells either having their spell levels adjusted or being cut altogether.
I don't agree with the stuff I snipped out, but I can certainly agree with this, although I would favor adjusting spell level for things that were simply too powerful for their level and favor cutting for things that are redundant or traps.
* * * * * * * *
And now for guidelines about class choice based upom cultural expectations -- I'll do this for the Core Races + Orc (and fitting the Half-* types in with their non-Human parents, in addition to the reason that I have the awesome WarCraft II Orc music playing in my head):
Dwarves not only make good Fighters, but it also fits their style; unfortunately, this doesn't take full advantage of their long lifespans, so they need support (currently mostly missing) for getting more diverse martial training than most other characters. The Dwarven martial archetypes (and Exarch Inquisitor) aren't terrible, but they seem too restrictive. Forgemaster Cleric looks pretty good, and fits the Dwarven style -- I would say use this as a guide for retweaking the other Dwarven archetypes (or making new ones), but a lot of what Forgemasters do just doesn't fit into the other classes.
Elves not only make pretty good Magi in the short term, it fits the style of many Elves, and their long lifespans are conducive to the diverse training of Magi, so it stands to reason that a lot of them become Magi, with Druid and Ranger being other common choices (unfortunately Druid doesn't work so well mechanically, but it fits the style of many Elves -- ought to offer alternative racial traits to support this), and then a smattering of Elves showing up in other classes. Half-Elves are like Elves, but add Human characteristics and extra multiclassing support, despite having shorter lifespans (seems too much shorter) than Elves. Wait, Pathfinder already did that. Unfortunately, Elves have no particular multiclassing support, and in fact, Humans steal their thunder in this department (see below).
Gnomes . . . don't get enough love in Pathfinder. They aren't terrible, but don't really stand out unless used by somebody with high system mastery. Their cultural style fits tinkering (which is supported okay with the Experimental Gunsmith and not so well with Saboteur Alchemist), trickery (supported decently by the Prankster Bard, but no particular support for being an Illusionist Wizard, except for the Threatening Illusion metamagic feat, which for some reason isn't linked from the d20pfsrd.com Gnome page), and nature connection inherited from their Fey origins (which doesn't get much support except for players with high system mastery -- ought to at least have a Gnome Wildblooded line of the Fey Sorcerer bloodline). The choice of +2 Constitution but not +2 Intelligence in the Gnome ability score adjustments seems odd -- more hit points are always nice, but don't help so much if you end up with a mechanical chassis that doesn't fit very well with your cultural style. Also, for being a trickster, Gnomes have some of their thunder stolen by Halflings with their Jinxes (see below).
Halflings stylistically fit with being Rogues, and the Filcher archetype for this is pretty good. Unfortunately, Rogue itself needs a makeover, so we'll just have to wait for Pathfinder Unchained to see if it gets a good one. They also fit stylistically with being underdog fighters, for which they get good support from Mouser Swashbuckler (even though this isn't explicitly a Halfling archetype, but note that Gnomes are much less well suited to make good use of it, since they can't trade anything to get their movement speed up). Unfortunately, the Sling-weilding part of being underdog fighters falls flat unless you have high system mastery, and even then is still probably not going to be great. Halflings also have good Fey-descended trickster support with the Jinx alternate racial trait, and thereby steal thunder that ought to belong to Gnomes.
Humans pat themselves on the back for being good at everything. Unfortunately, they are good at almost everything. Since Humans are most commonly fighting against nature, they ought to at least be rather bad at being Druids (but they can go ahead and pat themselves on the back for being Druids -- Humans do that kind of thing). The multiclassing support on Humans (the Eclectic feat) seems odd -- this ought to belong on Dwarves, Elves, and Gnomes instead.
Orcs and Half-Orcs are like Dwarves in favoring muscle classes, although of a different style than Dwarves, instead favoring low or no training; for non-muscle classes, the Scarred Witch Doctor is really fitting thematically. Strangely, although Half-Orc has a Barbarian archetype (Hateful Rager, which doesn't seem all that great), Orc doesn't. Another strange thing is the restriction of Redeemer Paladin to Half-Orcs -- seems this ought to be open to other traditionally monstrous races. The Advanced Class Guide, for all its faults, actually opened up some potential but as yet unrealized opportunities -- we need to see, for instance, Half-Orc Brawler, Investigator, and Slayer archetypes, along with Orc Barbarian, Bloodrager, Shaman, and Skald archetypes (which should, of course, be WarCraft-inspired :-) ). One other thing Orc suffers from is that the highly flavorful Keen Scent feat requires Wisdom 13, but Orcs come with Wisdom pre-dumped (actually, the Orc ability score adjustments leave them with 1 point less than what they had before adjustments, whereas most other races including all Core Races get 2 points more than what they had before adjustments).
EDIT: My recommendations for bringing back some older edition flavor for races with tweaks to modern rules:
Move the option of the Eclectic feat from Humans to Dwarves, Elves, and Gnomes. (Half-Elves already have the Multitalented racial trait and the option of the Multitalented Mastery feat.)
Change Gnomes ability score adjustments to be Specialized: +2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Str. Move the Halfling Jinx trait over to Gnomes. Add a Gnome Illusionist Wizard archetype (also available to Svirfneblin), and tweak the Saboteur Alchemist archetype.
Improve support for using Slings and related weapons (it should be costly in feats but have an end result of being able to do some serious damage even when Small), especially for Halflings. Also Unchain the Rogue (I know, it's supposed to be coming).
Remove the -2 Wis penalty that Orcs currently suffer (I know, you need a new category of ability score adjustment to support this). Orcs are traditionally savage and anti-intellectual, but their senses shouldn't suffer for it. And then add some scary Orc (and Half-Orc) archetypes as noted above.
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25. Prestige classes being awesome. No, not as awesome, but they should at least not suck.Unfortunately, Sturgeon's Law was in effect HARD with Prestige Classes.
There were 627 Prestige Classes, and less than 100 of them were actually decent. There were also some absolutely broken Prestige Classes.
Try as you might, you can't make Pun-Pun in Pathfinder, or anything even REMOTELY as broken, and that's a good thing.
I'm sure it's merely an aside to your point but for people at home that aren't aware...
Pun Pun had nothing to do with prestige classes. :P
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Weapon speeds, It really did balance out weapons making the dagger a more attractive choice, and since spell-caster where very slow.
Weapon vs armor type chart. Okay, I know not every group used this and it could be argued that it added extra book keeping, but the extra flavor it added was immense.
3rd editions skill system, I'm not a big fan of reducing the skill list. Seems like we lost more then we gained by doing so.
Other then that I can't think of anything I would seriously bring back. But, I would like armor as damage resistance to be a standard rule instead of optional.
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Flying not being a skill. You had a speed and a maneuverability class and that defined what you could do, no rolling needed in the middle of combat.
Monster advancing by HD.
Pathfinder is weird and convoluted for doing this. Since it is based on hp increase and going up HD to hit that hp for CR target it makes high con creatures get less in return for advancing than low con creatures.
3.5 advancement was much more straightforward.
Incidentally, that was roughly the 50th item.
I saw them explain that change somewhere around here. The spiked chain was too good all-around as was, so they had to trim something.
36. Spiked chains oughta get reach. Or even get some really minor benefit, like "no penalty when using Lunge". I dunno. But I liked them being a cool and very useful weapon.
Without going into specifics, let's just say my position on this involves babies and bathwater.
46. Bardic music as something you did to charm NPCs or overcome harpy charms, not singing during battle.
One of the few good things about Gallivant was his singing while fighting. The fighting bard should be an archetype where he and his allies are inspired while he sings and fights. Maybe a nightingale Cavalier who can only sing to inspire. A bard playing his instrument while fighting makes no sense.
I dunno, a harpist archer could be kinda cool... ;)
My bard manages to sidestep the flavor problems. She's a flutist kobold with a prehensile tail and a bladed tail attachment.
Weapon speeds, It really did balance out weapons making the dagger a more attractive choice, and since spell-caster where very slow.
Weapon vs armor type chart. Okay, I know not every group used this and it could be argued that it added extra book keeping, but the extra flavor it added was immense.
I thought it was interesting when I looked at it in 1st Edition AD&D, but never used it. Even then, I could see that it had one problem: The chart was actually Weapon vs Armor Class, which made really weird things happen if somebody added a shield or an enchantment, or even just Dex. Yes, you could figure out the Rules As Intended by going back to what your armor would have without all those adjustments, but that made it more of a pain to use, which is probably why just about nobody used it (which probably contributed to the baby of Weapon Speed geting thrown out with this bath water). Also the 1st Edition AD&D table would end up shoehorning multiple types of armor that had the same base armor class but realistically (or at least cinematically) different weapon vulnerabilities into having the same adjustment, and figuring out Rules As Intended as described above wouldn't fix that.
So in other words, the basic idea was great, but the implementation needs some serious cleaning up.
3rd editions skill system, I'm not a big fan of reducing the skill list. Seems like we lost more then we gained by doing so.
But 3rd Edition also really hosed you for investing Skill Points into a Cross-Class Skill (2 Points per Rank, and explicitly no refund if it later became a Class Skill). Not a fan of that.
One thing I could see to replace this, though, would be to have Class Skills have a Class Skill bonus that scales slowly with the number of levels you have in the class(es) that grant the skill as a Class Skill, instead of just a fixed +3. Something like start at +2, and go up by +1/4 per qualifying class level (the fractions don't do anything by themselves, but stack, eventually getting you whole numbers, even if they came from different qualifying classes; would like to see the same thing done for fractional BAB and Saves).
Other then that I can't think of anything I would seriously bring back. But, I would like armor as damage resistance to be a standard rule instead of optional.
That isn't an old rule (except that it was an option in Unearthed Arcana of 3.5th Edition), but I'd like to see it. Also standardize a tweaked version of Wounds and Vitality, even though that isn't old either.
6. The Cost of Specialization: When your wizard/mage specialized in one school of magic in... pretty much every edition of D&D before Pathfinder, he had to choose one or two schools as his banned schools (or if you played Second Edition, they were chosen for you automatically) "Banned" did not mean "I need two spell slots to cast Magic Missile because I banned evocation," "banned" meant "Cannot cast Magic Missile ever."
Didn't they keep this as Thassilonian specialist?
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6. The Cost of Specialization: When your wizard/mage specialized in one school of magic in... pretty much every edition of D&D before Pathfinder, he had to choose one or two schools as his banned schools (or if you played Second Edition, they were chosen for you automatically) "Banned" did not mean "I need two spell slots to cast Magic Missile because I banned evocation," "banned" meant "Cannot cast Magic Missile ever."Didn't they keep this as Thassilonian specialist?
It's significantly different, though - you get more spells still out of the deal, and you have no choice in what you lose.
Speaking of which: I'd like it if specialists got a bit more in the way of perks and quirks than they presently do. 2nd Edition specialists got built-in bonuses to saving throws against spells of their school, as well as to how hard their specialty spells were to resist (admittedly, this was before feats).
^Both some old editions of D&D (I think it started in 2nd) and Pathfinder's Thassilonian specialist choose your Prohibited Schools for you.
^Be careful what you wish for. Clever enemies could use this offensively. Used offensively, a 3rd level spell being able to age you by a year is very powerful against the short-lived races -- doesn't do much just once, but if it keeps getting done, you're permanently ruined with no possibility of getting the damage restored. Of course, Hasting your enemies is hazardous, but that's nothing a Wall of Stone (or something) that's just slightly higher level can't solve.
Also, although Haste (and potions thereof) aged the recipients in AD&D 1.x, I don't remember Boots of Speed doing this.
That said, I'd like to see side-effect-free Haste (and Slow) level-bumped, but being a StarCraft fan, I'd like to see a Baleful Haste of mid-low level that has nasty side effects; however, to keep its side effects from being usable offensively as described above, it has to be applied like a potion/infused extract.
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It's more a danger for the party from enemy magicians - the party may defeat them, but their dying curse will linger! NYAH-HAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
Suddenly a pack of 6 lv3 Goblin Magi, each with the Wand Wielder Arcana, a Scorpion Whip in one hand, and a Wand of Haste in the other, becomes the absolutely most-terrifying thing you'll ever encounter as a player...
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Never played the older editions. Kinda glad I didn't because most of these rules sound annoying at best, and always have to me.
However, I always thought the idea of the Fireball spell having a VOLUME rather than simply being a fixed radius sphere was interesting. Probably a pain in the ass to calculate sometimes, but opens up some interesting options (and hazards) for use.
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If you set one off in a series of corridors, it was pretty incredible how much of the dungeon they filled up.
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Never played the older editions. Kinda glad I didn't because most of these rules sound annoying at best, and always have to me.
It really was.
For as much as people like to say "things were simpler back in [insert Edition here]", they really weren't. At all.
The above examples are pretty much a giant, glowing testament to that.
Not to say I wouldn't like to see a bit more lethallity brought back into the mix with things like the Poison example, but a DM has free reign to up the Save DCs of those to nigh-impossible standards (WOTC established a "DM is your friend" idea which I despise, and they've only gotten worse in both 4E and 5th Ed - I like playing against DMs who are trying to actively kill you fairly, and I love being that DM as well, because it adds a level of tension that makes things rewarding to players).
Pathfinder is still plenty complex, but really no more than in previous editions. It's just much more CONSISTENT in where it's complex and where it's simple than previous editions.
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Never played the older editions. Kinda glad I didn't because most of these rules sound annoying at best, and always have to me.
However, I always thought the idea of the Fireball spell having a VOLUME rather than simply being a fixed radius sphere was interesting. Probably a pain in the ass to calculate sometimes, but opens up some interesting options (and hazards) for use.
Being able to bounce lightning bolts and hit an enemy twice with the same bolt was rare, but great fun when it happened.
Less fun when it happened to you, obviously!
And gosh, I sure don't miss all the silly rules about subduing dragons and making them your gumby.
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49. 'Street walker' chart. Now in non-gender-specific flavor.
55 (a lot of people didn't number their items). Set kinda ninja'd me on this, but bouncing lightning bolts. Maybe with an added percentile chance of misfire to make things interesting for the caster who relies on it too much. Bonus points if the GM doesn't tell the player he's rolling those.
56. XP costs for some spells. I kinda miss this mechanic. Obviously, xp costs don't work as well for games that don't use xp, but surely there's some sort of "negative level" mechanic that could substitute. It was an interesting balancing factor casters had to deal with. Though it was a pain sometimes.
I immediately changed Simulacrum to require a piece of the creature to be duplicated. Not just a lock or hair or a toenail, but a real piece - like a finger or a toe or some other hunk of flesh and bone.
Otherwise - way too easy to derail something by making a Sim of whatever the heck you need information on...
Also - 1st edition required a whole combination of spells to build a Sim - I think it took more cost and effort that way.
Also loved bouncy lightning bolts (mentioned above).
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56. XP costs for some spells. I kinda miss this mechanic. Obviously, xp costs don't work as well for games that don't use xp, but surely there's some sort of "negative level" mechanic that could substitute. It was an interesting balancing factor casters had to deal with. Though it was a pain sometimes.
I was torn on the XP costs - it really helped keep things under control in many ways. If it's costly for players to burn XP doing certain things, and makes them think twice about expending xp, it is equally so for NPC's. Thus, simple application of some verisimilitude to the campaign tended to lower the levels of magic. It also made some items just that much more valuable - because the time AND xp required to make them could really hurt a caster.
The mechanic was a pain, but getting rid of that very personal cost to a PC or NPC really took the gloves off item creation (and other things).
57.) All Sorcerers have the Draconic Bloodline.
Why do you need this newfangled "Stormborn" and "Arcane" stuff? Back in the day, all sorcerers were descended from dragons, and they liked it!
58. Not being able to spam out magic items.
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59. Descending Armor Class The math. Is not. That. HARD. You just roll 1d20, add your Str or Dex modifier, add various miscellaneous modifiers (+1 for Bless, +X if you have a magic weapon, +1 if you've got fighter weapon specialization), and then add your opponent's Armor Class to your roll. If the total result meets or exceeds your character's THAC0 ("Hey, what's 'THAC0' mean, again?" "(sigh) 'To Hit Armor Class 0.") you hit your target.
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What's gained though? THACO and AC-as-DC have always seemed identical, to me. It's just that some people struggle with subtracting negative numbers.
57.) All Sorcerers have the Draconic Bloodline.
Why do you need this newfangled "Stormborn" and "Arcane" stuff? Back in the day, all sorcerers were descended from dragons, and they liked it!
When the hell was this?
I've played 3rd and 3.5 since it came out, and never ONCE did it say that all Sorcerers came only from Dragon lineages.
I remember a bit in either the Draconomicon or Dragon Magic that MANY Sorcerers have Dragons in their family trees, but not ALL.
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60(?). Absence of Wealth By Level. No more entitlements!
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61) Armor spikes If something grabs your character or tries to swallow your character, they take a point of damage. 3rd edition destroyed one of my characters with their"You have to make an attack with the armor spikes". So cactus's and roses are all suddenly able to move? I just want Pazio to make an official statement that armor spikes automatically attack like the spikes at the bottom of a pit. Till then that's still RAI at any table I play at.