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Was it JJ or SKR that had the famous "Duck Analogy" for situations similar to this? The premise that things that do EXACTLY THE SAME THING should work EXACTLY THE SAME is a pretty easy one to work with, right?

Also, off topic: Anytime a person mentions a PFS ruling, someone is bound to say "oh, that's just house rules" or something to that effect really irritates me. EVERYONE uses house rules. Even if the rule is "Everything is exactly by the book, no exceptions!" There are still questionable calls and semi(or very)ambiguous rules to interpret, thus two different groups with similar composition (party structure, using the same AP, players make similar decisions, etc.) running "by the book" rulesets can have drastic differences. I mean, really, just look at how many FAQs have been issued, with a staggering amount left to go (and more every day). Perhaps my above assertion isn't so easy to work with after all :/

Either way, Both Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are fantastic traits. Even if you can't abuse them quite as heavily as you may have first thought, any caster who has a signature spell that craves metamagic would be higly advised to consider one or both traits.

@ Kris

While Gorum's Swordsmanship allows you to use Vital Strike at the end of a charge, the benefit to BadBird's combo is that you can make an AoO with Vital Strike.

Basically, you walk up to your opponent, Vital Strike them (w/Power Attack). Felling Smash allows a trip attempt, which will have them provoke an AoO from Greater Trip, which you can then Vital Strike with Because of Gorum's Swordsmanship. Good Times.

morning star

In another thread there was some discussion as to How inappropriately sized Reach Weapons work.
What is the reach of a Large character wielding a Medium Longspear? 10',15', 20'? Other?
How about a Medium creature with a Large Whip? Still 15'?
What happens when both of these characters have Enlarge Person cast on them?

Also, is the Balor entry correct with a listed 20' reach for his Whip attacks? Are Small and Medium the only sizes that get increased reach with the Whip?

At this point I believe that the OP's question has been effectively answered. Would all who wish to continue the reach discussion care to move to a dedicated topic?

I've created a new thread here

Let's bring in some examples from the NPC codex while we're at it, right? //sarcasm

From the Melee and Ranged Weapons section:

Reach Weapons: A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

From the Whip text:

...The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack.

While there is no rule (that I can find)stating that the weapon's size determines the reach granted, it IS stated that "...Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack..."
This evidence leads me to believe that the size of the weapon does have some bearing on how much reach it grants. Exactly what is open to debate.

What the whip does is differentiate itself from "...Most reach weapons..." described in the Melee and Ranged Weapons section. What this distinction causes as levels of abstraction sizes increase is unclear.

Actually, the reach is based both on character size AND weapon size. Otherwise Large creatures using reach weapons would have reach of 15 rather than 20.

I was just (kind of) making a joke about how the whip's reach is uncertain when size increases are applied. As you note, 20', 30'? who knows? I just like the idea of having a martial battlefield controller with comparable AoE to the spell Stone Call with Widen metamagic applied.

For extra credit, grab a Large whip and get Enlarge Person cast on you. Then have fun searching the rules forums to figure out what your reach is.

The second FAQ referenced stipulates that "...a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon..."

This leads me to believe that if the feat or ability does NOT allow/require you to treat the weapon as one handed, you still get the benefits of using a two handed weapon.

The previously mentioned feats are great for any archer (Hunter or Inquisitor). While it is true that an unarchetyped Inquisitor gets more mileage out of them, they are still rock solid. Since the animal companion will almost certainly be engaged in melee, you'll be getting the benefits pretty steadily. Plus you have an animal companion.

I was simply pointing out that these are very nice archery teamwork feats.

If you're going Hunter, those are some of the ones that you should probably take. If you're going Inquisitor, you'll likely take the same feats (Whether Sacred Huntmaster or unarchetyped).

However, it is true that the animal gains very little benefit from these feats. As such, the Inquisitor is better served eschewing an archetype and picking up a companion in the method suggested by Claxon (Domain/Inquisition + Boon Companion).

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Whoa there on bashing the archery teamwork feats.

I'd just like to bring to your attention the following:

Coordinated Shot
Distracting Charge
Enfilading Fire
Friendly Fire Maneuvers

Also, pick up the Religion trait Deadeye Bowman.
Have fun having crazy bonuses to your ranged attacks while never worrying about cover.

Melee Tactics Toolbox, p. 8 wrote:

Using the total defense action prevents you from attacking — including making attacks of opportunity — but you still threaten foes for the purposes of flanking.

I wounder if that's applicable here?

Wow, I guess that I'm bad at creating riddles then. :/
Although it seems like QuidEst got the gist of it.

I was going for the first letter of the first word in each of the phrases spelling "ounce" (first impressions speak volumes)

and the first letter of each second word makes three (amount to revelations)

Oh well. Maybe if I had provided a better mechanism for the "ounce" portion.

@ DM_Blake
I'd give it to you, if indeed Linguistics had the best modifier available.

The Sphinx says "It has been Ages since I have had a proper cup of tea. Nobody serves it the way I like. Pour for me, and I shall let you pass."

The service consists of a teapot and 2 cups, one marked "5" and the other marked "2". On the serving tray is engraved:

Only the Strong survive / Unless he who is Wise can see / No riddle may bar his way / Certain even unto Death / Every entry is meant for him
First impressions speak volumes, but second thoughts can amount to revelations.

If it takes more than a minute or two, Linguistics check (or Int, or Wis) to figure the answer. Alternatively, a Diplomacy check to as the Sphinx "How do you take it?" could give them a hint.

Look into the feat Binding Throw. Since you can replace a single attack in your Full Attack routine with a trip attempt, you can burn a swift action to initiate the grapple. Of course, this doesn't help in subsequent rounds (unless you are a Maneuver Master Monk), but it is rather nice to inflict the Prone and Grappled conditions while getting extra attacks.

You might check out the feat circling mongoose. Of course, I'm not sure if it works with Panther Style, most likely GM discretion. I'd also go with Unchained Rogue instead, if you've got the option to do so.

After a particularly vicious battle, Cleric asks "Do you need healing?"
Wizard (confused) replies "Why would I need healing? Taking hit point damage? That's for suckers!"

I recommend a single level dip into Devilbane Priest Cleric (of Erastil or Gozreh). This will get you Heavy armor prof., and, more importantly, access to the Plant(Growth) subdomain. Swift action Enlarge is smokin' hot. Also, the classic Divine Favor + Fate's Favored is very strong.

While these builds are reasonably tasty, you *COULD* step your control game up with Whirlwind Attack. I know that eats a TON of feats, but....Having a control area the size of a Stone Call spell is NASTY.

I really like 1/2 Orcs for the Toothy alternate racial. Sure, it's piddly dice, but you get Str x 1.5 and 3->1 Power Attack on it, so it stays competitive when you need damage (before you get Advanced Weapon Training, anyway) Sacred Tattoo is very nice as well, especially with Fate's Favored.


Is Crafter's Fortune legit for PFS? The additional resources page doesn't seem to call it out, but I'd like to know for sure.

...Actually, that Sorcerer won't cast Confusion until level 9, when he actually gets it (unless he chooses to learn it regularly at level 8). The spell that he gets at level 3 is the 1st level spell Lesser Confusion. Make Whole comes at 5th, then Shrink Item at 7, and eventually Confusion at level 9.

@ Ducky

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that there's no "Bard build that you would use in place of literally any other class."
Do you mean that all other classes are more effective at what they specialize in? I'll agree to that, mostly. However, quite a few gamers (especially the younger ones) want their character to be able to do *EVERYTHING*... And that is what the Bard does very well indeed. They can buff, cast, fight, schmooze, heal, etc., and they can do all of them respectably well, even if they aren't the absolute best at it. I'll give you a sample build, using only the Core book and the APG, built to PFS rules. It can be done Core only, but really, the APG adds quite a bit of versatility and polish.

Human Bard (Arcane Duelist) 1
Str 16 (14+2)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 14

Traits: River Rat, Reactionary

Feats: Arcane Strike (Class Bonus), Lingering Performance (1st Level), Improved Initiative (Human Bonus)

Skills: 1 rank each in Climb, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception, Perform (Oratory), Spellcraft, Stealth, and Swim.

Gear: Buckler, Chain Shirt, Dagger (x2), Sling (w/ 20 bullets), Spell Component Pouch, 50 ft rope, Backpack, 1 Acid Flask, 2 gp, 8 sp remaining.

Level 0:
Detect Magic
Mage Hand

Level 1:
Cure Light Wounds

HP: 10
Initiative: +8
AC: 17
Flat Footed: 15
Touch: 12
CMB: +3
CMD: 15
Fort: +1
Reflex: +4
Will: +2
Attack: Dagger: +3 (1d4+5), Sling +2 (1d4+4)

While this guy doesn't hit like a Power Attacking Barbarian, he does respectable damage (enough to drop most enemies at Level 1), has decent AC, can do some healing and/or battlefield control, has a decent skill array, is very fast, and can use his buff ability all day long.

Just don't let them use the pregen Harsk.

In all seriousness though, I really like the idea of having a Bard in there. More PCs is tantamount to a more effective bard. Also, having just 1 other person who can cast CLW once or twice a day is pretty clutch. When the Cleric goes down because the goblin with a d4 got a crit and maxed damage, how do you recover from that? Bard to the rescue.

Having a bard is also nice for adding a +1 that everyone has to remember. The Cleric won't always bless, the Rogue can't always flank, but the Bard can almost always Inspire Courage. Having this aspect will prepare the kids to remember other situational bonuses that can become crucial, since they will have frequent exposure.

I'm also in agreement that having a Ranger with a pet can bog down the game, and that the pet usually will be more of a hindrance than help in combat. Just watch any episode of Critical Role.

The rest of the basic party composition seems very balanced.

To actually build the party, I'd limit it to Core and APG only. That should give a vast array of customization, without being overwhelming. The individual character builds might take a page out of the Guide to the Builds. Just take the 20 point buy suggestions, maybe modified slightly to give some flaw or additional flavor to the character. Perhaps take a point out of the primary stat and put it into Wisdom or Con. That should add durability at the expense of raw power and still give a solid character. For Feats and Skills, you're pretty limited at first level, so there really shouldn't be much dithering over the choices.

Yeah, we had our Bloodrager almost die THREE times in one single combat tonight because he kept getting healed. The poor sod never even got a turn until the battle was over. Stabilize would have kept him alive, while burning Cure Moderate charges bumped him back to being a primary target.

Stabilize is a decent pick when you have FOUR orisons. If you have eight at your disposal, it becomes a no-brainer. Much like Cavall seems to be saying about Channel Energy, taking Stabilize is another option that you have. Maybe I can channel just enough to get my buddy back up and kill the monster. Then again, maybe my turn is better spent killing the monster myself. Or, I can Stabilize my buddy, move in to cover him, and deal with it out of combat. There are situations where each is the best option.

Also, Guidance is a solid pick from 1 to 20. +1 on almost any d20 roll is always nice to have in your back pocket.

This might also be of interest: 2 AoOs for the price of one FAQ

How can a Tiny fox trip anything larger than a Small creature?

Something that people seem to be omitting is the text of Whirlwind Attack, wherein it is stated that you make one attack at your highest BAB against all foes within reach. Threatening has nothing to do with it. That will matter for AoOs and determining Flanking, but has NOTHING to do with Whirlwind Attack.

What bonus at 6th level? Inspire Courage improves at 5, 11, and 17...???

@ Gauss

I can see where you're coming from, however, the PDT has specifically stated that FAQs apply only to what is specifically mentioned. Thus a Cleave FAQ has no bearing on Whirlwind Attack, even though it cites reasoning that should apply universally. Another thing to note, though, is that Cleave is a special action (not attack action, full attack action, etc.), whereas Whirlwind Attack is specifically a full attack action.

I've got a whip-and-trip master in PFS that does this religiously. If it's able to be tripped, he trips it. If it's unable to be tripped, he hits it. The swift action usage is very nice, as he took a level dip to get the Plant(Growth) subdomain, so he can swift action Enlarge 4x/day. This gives him an area of effect almost as large as that of the spell Stone Call. It's really good stuff. To more succinctly answer your questions;

1) Sure, he can sub trip, sunder, or disarm attempts for any attack
1a) Mix and match away!

2) Yes to all.

3) If an opponent becomes within your reach during the course of your full attack, you have the opportunity to make a single attack against them. This can be applied to 3a, 3b, 3c, and/or any other situations that may cause an opponent that was previously out of reach to come into your reach.

4) AoO is not part of the full attack action, nor is it an extra attack. It occurs outside of a normal turn and has it's own special set of rules. Feel free to make any AoOs that are provoked. However, I will almost always forgo the initial AoO, saving it for when they stand up from prone, as I enjoy having a 20% better chance to hit.

It sounds like the PC in this case has been "training" for this trait for at least 3 levels and 3 months real-time. That seems like a reasonable investment of time to me.

When he gets back to the Pathfinder Lodge, have him undergo a "formal training ritual" with expensive material components worth at least 1,000 gp. He will need to formally forsake his past (lose Rich Parents and pay the material component cost) and embrace the values of the Society (gain new trait and pay the prestige point cost).

To all those who think that Rich Parents is overpowered - It's nowhere near as good as a +1 to AC. The cheapest variety other than a trait that this comes in is 1,000 gp or a feat.
Rich Parents is powerful for about 3 levels. Defender of the Society is MORE powerful AND lasts throughout the entirety of a PC's career.

I can see the reasoning behind allowing the extra 2 missiles. It's whoop-dee-doo stuff. It's hardly game-breaking, and if you want to blow a metamagic feat/slot on it, I'll totally allow it...In my home game. However, the targeting line and the description seem to imply that it caps a 5 missiles. Not Damage dice. Unless I've missed an FAQ or Errata, or some other official word. Totally not a big deal, though finding 7 creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart, might be a bit tricky.

I'll cop to the bit about no size limits, though. That part IS nice. Of course, most Gargantuan+ sized foes have pretty nasty CMDs...but a natural 20 always works, right?

@ Darksol

So this Wizard is spending his feats on what again? The baseline for a Toppling Magic Missile is just about the same as the Fighter's baseline (Full CL = Full BAB, High casting stat = High Melee stat). How is the Wizard boosting his CMB?

You seem to be right, though that the CL would still go up to 20. However, the # of missiles would cap at 5, as the damage dice can go up by 5 levels, but no other aspect of the spell is increased, so no additional missiles. At least, as I read it.

BTW, that Fighter has a 40 foot radius centered on a grid intersection. Sure, it's effectively Close range, but it can certainly hit more than 5 targets, no 2 of which may be more than 15 feet apart. Besides, if the enemy is that bunched up, and that far away, Stone Call is a MUCH better spell anyway. More damage, no SR, can't be blocked by Shield, creates difficult terrain, etc.

Also, you're bothering to worry about 1d4+1 damage by the time you're at CL 9+? Seriously? It's kind of a cool trick in PFS at Lv.1, where you can get Spell Spec. and Toppling Spell, so you can hit and trip 2 foes with one action, but it doesn't seem to scale all that well.

You seem worried that the Fighter is blowing all of his feats on being a trip monster; you're right, he is doing exactly that. However, there are plenty of nice weapon alternatives in the Flails weapon group. Not to mention the new Advanced Weapon Training that allows the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage. Oh, it's a Gargantuan creature? Cool, I'll just lay some smack down on him with my Power Attack while I trip all of his buddies. What's more, they'll all provoke on their way down (and back up), so there's that.

I find it interesting that you're bringing up the Ring of Wizardry. That item allow you to maintain your ability to do what the Fighter can do all day, every day.

I'm also intrigued that you're suggesting that a full caster stoop down to the level of martials in the first place. If a Wizard REALLY, REALLY wants to do something, I'm pretty sure that it'll happen. You're certainly not going to need to convince me of the martial/caster disparity....

Maybe I'm missing the point? Is it that you're saying that a Wizard who happens to invest in Toppling Spell and no additional specialization is better than, say, a Ranger who happens to similarly invest one feat in Improved Trip? If that's the case, then I 100% agree.

Hey, what gives? I was under the impression that this thread is about Evocation, not Necromancy...?

Also, since we're bringing it back up (a move that provokes, no less), I'm at a loss as to how the Wizard is even close to being better than a trip-focused martial. Static modifier is CL (caps at 15 w/ Intensify) + casting stat (maybe +9 or so). I guess we could throw on Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Fury's Fall for good measure. Top end on this static mod is Low 30's at level 13. That's using almost every feat the Wizard gets to focus on tripping. My PFS Lore Warden (with a dip for Growth subdomain) is getting similar numbers at just over half the level. Also, Whirldwind Attack with a whip gives me a control area equal to Stone Call. It's pretty nasty.

Maybe you're thinking that having reach means that you can only attack at 10' range? Because that certainly isn't how natural reach works.

It looks like Startoss Style is totally the way to go here. It's not like Weapon Spec gives ANYTHING over Startoss Style. If you happen to ALSO use the later Startoss feats, then it's akin to Cleave/Great Cleave, but that damage bonus is ALWAYS active as long as you take the swift action to activate the style.

Dude, Enlarge Person is HOT. Double reach, increased damage dice AND a Str boost? What's not to like? I mean, sure, it's not for everyone (finesse characters, casters, etc.), but if you're Str-based, it's golden. Especially if you've got an odd Str modifier.

Ummmm....The race restriction actually INCREASES the chance of having a darkvision race (considering core races only). The only other race with darkvision is the Dwarf, so you're going from a 2 in 7 chance to a 1 in 3.

That being said, does low-light vision apply here at all? If my torch illuminates 5', does that mean that low-light races can see 10' (dim light)?

Poor Humans...They've got it so rough.

We can get this at level 2. Here's the process:

Lv.1 Human Maneuver Master Monk
Feats: Imp. Grapple, Imp. Trip, Ki Throw

Lv.2 Fighter
Bonus Feat: Binding Throw

At this point, your full attack consists of 1 attack and 1 maneuver. However, you can substitute a Trip maneuver for that attack. When you successfully trip, you can initiate a grapple as a swift action. Since you've still got the additional maneuver from Flurry of maneuvers, you can make another grapple check (with the +4 from the enemy being prone)

as Far as Flanking/adjacent, the question is improperly worded. While you do not need to be adjacent, you DO need to THREATEN. This is kind of important, as you're other questions mention a PC with reach.
Example: 2 PCs are in a 5 foot wide corridor, a Rogue in front, and his Bard friend right behind him wielding a longspear. Suddenly, An Orc charges the rogue in the surprise round! Everyone rolls initiative; the Bard goes first, then the Rogue, and last the Orc. The Bard readies an action to trip the orc when the Rogue gets into flanking position, and ends his turn. The Rogue successfully uses acrobatics to tumble through the Orc's square at CMD + 5. The rogue and Bard are now flanking the Orc, even though the Bard is not adjacent. The Bard will now attempt to trip the Orc with his readied action at a +2 for flanking, rather than a -4 for soft cover from an ally. Once the Bard uses his action, the Rogue can now sneak attack the (possibly prone) Orc.

I'm a big fan of the deity Erastil. Community domain is great for removing fatigue (downside is that it takes a standard action), Plant (Growth) subdomain is AMAZING. Swift action Enlarge Person? Yes, please. Alternatively, Animal domain and Boon Companion is pretty strong combo.

Just hit Lv.2 tonight, went with the Arcane Healer archetype. So far, so good...Thanks for the help!

Hey, everyone. Thanks you all for the quick responses!

@ N. Jolly
That's kind of what I thought initially. Inspire Courage is pretty straightforward; throw in a couple of additional buffs and I can get a Ron Popeil endorsement.

@ Azten
Which archetype is that? It sounds pretty good, but of course, it makes me wonder what the tradeoff is... If it's from one of the more recent books, the GM will likely be unfamiliar with it, and we're kind of limited in books, as both the Ranger and the Rogue players are brand-new to Pathfinder. But it certainly doesn't hurt to ask ;)

@ Smallfoot
Yeah, I have no real clue what the availability of magical gear will be. I'm considering taking some crafting feats, just so that I will be absolutely sure that everyone will have access to the essentials. Of course, this is a down-the-line prospect.

@ Dave Justus
While I know that archery is considered to be one of the more powerful approaches to combat, it's also very feat intensive. I'm not quite sold on the viability of becoming a competent archer. If there is a way to make it work, it certainly has appeal.
I'm totally with you on the whole in-combat-healing-is-a-waste-of-time thing. So, what does the cleric do for battlefield control? What would his plan of action be at low levels (specifically 1 and 2)?

@ Jodokai
Oh, I'm sure that he'll focus primarily on archery. I think that Power Attack and a Greatsword will be the extent of his switch-hitting. Of course, I have no idea how long it takes to level up in this campaign (I'm used to PFS, where it's super easy to see where you should be at any given point)

I'm having an issue in a home campaign. I've got a 1/2 Orc Bard with a solid chassis, but I'm stretched pretty thin.
Stat generation method was roll 4d6, drop the lowest, assign in any order. I got:

Str 16 +2 racial
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 9
Cha 16

So, I'm pretty pleased; I should be able to make basically anything. I could even have chosen to play a Monk! (Core APG and Unchained books are what's allowed) However, the other 3 players are:
1) Switch hitter Ranger
2) Unchained Rogue
3) Cavalier (although this will be switched to Paladin)

So, being the last one to join, I figured that I'd just fill in where ever needed...However, it seems like there is quite a bit that is needed. That Paladin switch might help out in the healing dept. later on, but right now it's just me and my 2 spells per day (I took CLW and Grease). I didn't really know what else to do, so I just grabbed Combat Reflexes as my feat, and now we're off!
I just feel like this character is trying to cover too many bases at once. He's got a great stat array, but I feel like he's the weakest character at the table. I'm pretty sure that I can get him changed up for next session, but what do I change him into? Or is he actually solid, and I'll see major improvement once we get some gold? Where do I go from here?

Warpriest gets sacred weapon right from level 1. While not technically a static increase, you do get larger scaling damage dice.

Oh, cool, I wasn't aware of that feat. Sounds like a winner.

Ah, this thread. It's been a long time, old friend.

I'm just going to put out this sample build...

1/2 Elf unchained Rogue 4

Str: who cares?
Dex: a truckload
Con: some
Int: 13+
Wis: some
Cha: who cares?

Weapon - Elven Branched Spear (Fortuitous when you get the cash)
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise (or whatever, really)
Later on, we'll pick up Lunge, Improved Trip and Greater Trip.

Rogue Talents - Minor Magic: Acid Splash, Major Magic: Grease

Strategy: You're all about offensive defense. You ready an action to cast grease when the enemy moves to within 10 ft. Whether they make their save or not matters little. The area in front of you is now difficult terrain. But, even better, when they move through the grease, they use acrobatics, meaning that they are denied their Dex. Happy sneak attacking! Keep readying actions to attack when they move closer to you.
Assuming that you actually do trip them to start with, which is pretty likely, given the +2 from Elven Branched Spear and the Dex denial, you'll keep your foes locked down very well. Subsequent rounds are even tastier, since you get to tack on Debilitating Injury. When you're not getting sneak attack damage, you're still getting Dex-and-a-half damage at a +4 to hit (at least), as they are prone.

Hmmmm... Hit points, better attack and damage, not much loss of skill points....Sounds like you want an Unchained Barbarian. Grab 2 levels for Beast Totem, so you'll still have your claws. Take Extra Rage if you intend to go Slayer the rest of the way, otherwise dip 1 level of Unchained Rogue for Finesse and Sneak Attack, then take Accomplished Sneak attacker. Continue the Barbarian path until you get Greater Beast Totem and Greater Rage. Also, enjoy your DR/- and temporary hit points while raging. If you can get the Amulet of Mighty fists, that's great. Agile is really nice. Also look into Vicious.

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This is what the Scar hex is for.

I'm none too clear on the tie-up portion of the grapple rules (is anyone really?), and I would love some clarification there as well.

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Defender of the Society trait for +1 AC in Medium or Heavy armor.

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