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Leaving these here as example builds:

SAINT MIGHTY THE ARMADILLO - Human/Half-Orc/Half-Elf/Scion-Of-Humanity-Aasimar Warpriest

Race Hum Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Klar)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Improved Shield Bash, Duel Enhancement
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 Double Slice
CL6 Wrp6 Shield Slam, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Wrp7 Greater Weapon Focus (Klar)
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 ???, ???
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Master

lv12 full attack:

+11/+11/+6/+6/+1, 1d10 base damage per attack.

At lv12, can/should retrain to Champion of the Faith, since from then on there is no need to use the basic Sacred Weapon - Shield Master provides a better/permanent Bonus to attack/damage, and thus Dual Enhancement is redundant (so it's safe to lose now).

You, then, get a much-cheaper +5 enhancement to your attacks, a bonus to damage equal to your Charisma, a full attack that is naturally higher than the Sacred Fist's (identical if the SF has Weapon Focus), and should have the highest AC of any Warpriest build.

If you chose to be a half-human via Scion of Humanity, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc, then you have to put off some feats by a Feat Slot in order to gain Weapon Finesse, but the results can be that you get extra tidbits.

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For those wanting to try out a Sword-And-Board build, here's one, and it focuses almost exclusively on Dex:

Deity Feronia Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Race Human Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Focus (Light Shield), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
CL2 Swsh1 Weapon Finesse (Piercing)
CL3 Wrp2 Slashing Grace (Bastard Sword)
CL4 Wrp3 Dual Enhancement
CL5 Wrp4 Shield Slam
CL6 Wrp5
CL7 Wrp6 Double Slice, ???, Improved Two-Weapon fighting
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 ???
CL11 Wrp10 ???

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Making the Warpriest as SAD as possible is nice, yes, and that includes making Wis-to-hit, but I'm not sure about Longbow.

A Double-Barreled Pistol or a Crossbow on the other hand...

A one-level dip into Gunslinger, especially Pistolero, works extremely well - Grit being based upon Wisdom means you're going to have a whole lot of it.

HOLY GUN
Blessings Air, Law/Chaos/Good
Race Hmn Point-Blank Shot
CL1 Pist1 Precise Shot, Gunsmithing
CL2 Wrp1 Weapon Focus (Pistol)
CL3 Wrp2 Rapid Reload (Pistol)
CL4 Wrp3 (Filler Combat Feat) >>> Retrain to Channel Smite at lv4
CL5 Wrp4 Guided Hand
CL6 Wrp5
CL7 Wrp6 Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization, Point-Blank Master
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 Greater Weapon Focus
CL11 Wrp10 Quicken Blessing (Law/Chaos/Good)
CL12 Wrp11

A Double-Barrel Pistol will effectively get you as many shots off as if you were a two-Weapon fighter, and if you're within 30ft, you'll be getting a +2 (+1 from WF, +1 from PBS), offsetting the double-tap.

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LANCE DU POND - 2-Handed Champion of the Faith

Stats:
Human/Half-Elf/ Ancestral Arms Half Elf/Toothy Half-Orc: Str 17 (15+2) / Dex 10 / Con 13 / Int 10 / Wis 14 / Cha 14
Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc: Str 15 / Dex 10 / Con 15 (13+2) / Int 10 / Wis 14 / Cha 14
Scion of Humanity Aasimar: Str 15 / Dex 10 / Con 13 / Int 10 / Wis 15 (13+2) / Cha 17 (15+2)

Deity: Shizuru, Gorum, Chaldira

Deity's Favored Weapon: Katana (Shizuru) - Large weapon
Ancestral Arms: Elven Curve Blade
Alternate Weapon: Nodachi (naturally a Martial Weapon)

Variant Channeling: Battle (Heal)(Chaldira) / Battle (Harm) (Gorum) / Weapons (Gorum) / Luck (Chaldira)

Blessings: Good, Glory (Shizuru) / Chaos, Destruction (Gorum) / Good, Luck (Chaldira)

Race Improved Initiative (Hu) / Skill Focus - Intimidate (HE) / Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Elven Curve Blade AAHE / Endurance (SAHO) / Bite Attack (THO) / <Racial Heritage: Aasimar> (SoH)
Chmp1 Toughness, Weapon Focus - [two-handed weapon]
Chmp2
Chmp3 Power Attack (Hu, AAHE, SoH) / Antagonize (HE) / Diehard (SAHO) / Weapon Focus - Bite (THO)
Chmp4
Chmp5 Divine Protection
Chmp6 Improved Critical (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH) / Deathless Initiate (SAHO) / Hammer the Gap (THO), Weapon Specialization - [two-handed weapon]
Chmp7 Surge of Success (Hu) / Elven Battle Training (AAHE) / Intimidating Confidence (HE) / Ironhide (SAHO) / Extra Channel (THO) / Heavenly Radiance (SoH)
Chmp8
Chmp9 Hammer the Gap (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH) / Deathless Master (SAHO) / Improved Critical (THO), Greater Weapon Focus
Chmp10
Chmp11 Quicken Blessing
Chmp12 Critical Versatility, Critical Focus (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH, THO) / Toughness, Improved Critical (SAHO)

There are basically 6 paths available here, based on your Race. All make use of Critical Hits to auto-hit and deal extra damage (offsetting the fewer attacks and lower BAB compared to a typical Paladin), but how much of a focus and how it meshes depends on the Race.

Human is an entirely vanilla Critical-Fighter. It gets bonuses to succeed on Critical Hits and gets extra tricks based on them. It also gets Improved Initiative, to somewhat make up for the lack of Dex in the stats. Any of the other three half-humans can take this build, as well (sans Imp. Init.), but they each have their own tricks.

Half-Elf focuses on Intimidate. Skill Focus at lv1 adds to its already-freakish Intimidate check from having a high Charisma. Antagonize allows you to control the flow of battle, and Intimidating Confidence lets you make an Intimidate check whenever you score a Critical Hit. Shizuru is really the only choice of Deity here (Glory Blessing, people - GLORY). A vanilla Half-Orc can also take this build, but they're not nearly as good at it (+2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate for a Half-Orc isn't great compared to +3 from lv1-9, +6 thereafter that a Half-Elf).

Ancestral Arms Half-Elf: This is pretty much identical to the Human but for one main difference: Elven Battle Training gives you an additional Attack of Opportunity with an Elven Curveblade, which is as close to using Combat Reflexes (and stacks with, interestingly) as you'll ever get with a piddling 10 Dexterity. EBT is pretty much the only reason to take this over a straight Half-Elf wielding a Nodachi, aside from flavor reasons (if you're playing with rolled stats and going above lv12, though, totally take this and Combat Reflexes - it's actually pretty nasty).

Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc basically drops Improved Critical and Hammer the Gap until the very last level. The trade-off here is that you are a SPONGE, and basically don't die until you're dead. This build starts with Endurance as a Racial Bonus Feat by forgoing the Half-Orc's +2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate via Shaman's Apprentice, and then builds up from there with Diehard, Ironhide (hey, +1 Natural Armor isn't terrible), Deathless Initiate, and Deathless Master (why Ironhide is used at all).

Toothy Half-Orc borrows a trick from the Barbarian. While it's not Come And Get Me, Reverse Feint is part of a really nice little combo: You use Battle Variant Channel (Harm) to give penalties to your opponent on Damage and Crit-Hit rolls as a Standard Action (effectively granting you and your allies temporary DR/-); as a Move Action, you use Reverse Feint, giving them a bonus to hit, but letting you attack as an Immediate Action (that's separate from an AoO), at +2 to-hit. Extra Channel means you can do this more often. And by taking Toothy, it also gains an additional attack. This basically can only take Gorum as a god, but it wouldn't want anything else anyway, really.

Scion of Humanity Aasimar is the most magically-adept of the five. It gets +2 Wis and Charisma, making it a real nasty little piece of work for both Smiting and spellcasting. Scion gets the best defenses, and departs a bit from the base Human build by taking Heavenly Radiance in order to gain spell-like abilities (Searing Light is probably the best choice).

Regardless of how you build this, your Dex is garbage, so you're better off wearing Heavy Armor to subsist with this.

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Double-Starknife / Thrower Warpriest
Human Warpriest 10 / Guide Ranger 2
BASE STATS Str 12 / Dex 18 (16+2) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7
STATS at lv12 Str 13 / Dex 26 (16+2+3+6) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7

TRAITS Fate’s Favored, ???
BLESSINGS Air, ???

Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Starknife)
CL2 Rng1 Track
CL3 Rng2 Double Slice, Precise Shot
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 ???*, Quick Draw
CL6 Wrp4
CL7 Wrp5 Point-Blank Shot
CL8 Wrp6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization
CL9 Wrp7 Rapid Shot
CL10 Wrp8
CL11 Wrp9 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL12 Wrp10

GEAR
• Blinkback Belt
• +3 Starknife
• +3 Starknife

Sacred Weapon +2
Sacred Armor +2

Full Attack at lv12 (Sacred Weapon & Divine Power Active)
+25 / +25 / +25 / +25 / +20 / +20 / +15

* Retrain to Dual Enhancement at lv6

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Champion of the Faith - Dwarven Double Waraxe, Two-Handed

Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Wisdom, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Constitution
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck

CL1 Power Attack*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Double Waraxe), Chosen Alignment - Good
CL2
CL3 Cleave, Detect Alignment
CL4 Smite, Sacred Weapon - Good vs DR
CL5 Cleaving Finish
CL6 ???
CL7 Toughness
CL8
CL9 Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical
CL10
CL11 Quicken Blessing - Good
CL12 ???, Sacred Weapon - Holy Enhancement

* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2

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Champion of the Faith / Armored Hulk Barbarian - Dwarven Longhammer, Two-Handed

Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Wisdom
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck

CL1 Wrp1 Catch-Off Guard*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Longhammer), Chosen Alignment - Good
CL2 Brb1
CL3 Brb2 Power Attack, Reckless Abandon
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 Toughness/Extra Rage
CL6 Wrp4 Smite, Sacred Weapon - Good (vs DR)
CL7 Wrp5 Extra Rage/Toughness
CL8 Wrp6 Improved Critical
CL9 Wrp7 ???
CL10 Wrp8 ???**
CL11 Wrp9 ???****
CL12 Wrp10

* to treat the shaft of the Longhammer as a Quarterstaff.
** Retrain to Greater Weapon Focus at lv10
*** Retrain to Quicken Blessing - Good at lv12

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Warpriest - Nodachi, Two-Handed

Race: Human
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Wisdom, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Constitution
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck

Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Katana
CL1 Wrp1 ???*, Weapon Focus (Nodachi)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 ???, ???
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 ???
CL6 Wrp6 Weapon Specialization, ???*
CL7 Wrp7 ???
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Improved Critical (Nodachi), Critical Focus**
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 Critical Versatility, ???

* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2

---

Warpriest - Nodachi, Two-Handed, plus Dwarven Boulder Helmet

Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Dexterity
Dump Stats: Charisma, Int
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck

CL1 Power Attack*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Boulder Helmet)
CL2
CL3 Improved Bull Rush, Two-Weapon Fighting
CL4
CL5 Pushing Assault
CL6 Greater Bull Rush**
CL7 Furious Focus
CL8
CL9 ???**, Improved Critical (Nodachi)
CL10
CL11 Quicken Blessing - Good
CL12 Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Boulder Helmet)

* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2

** First take something like Toughness at lv9. Retrain your 6th Level Bonus Feat to something like Dodge. Retrain your 9th level Feat to Greater Bull Rush since you now actually have a BAB of +6. Retrain your 6th Level Bonus Feat to Bull Rush Critical now that you are 9th level and as a Bonus Feat you count as having a BAB of 9 for the purposes of meeting Feat prereqs.

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Sacred Fist - Scimitar, One-Handed

Race: Any
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Dexterity
Dump Stats: Charisma, Int
Blessings: Good, Luck

Race (???)
CL1 ???*, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, AC Bonus,
CL2
CL3 Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Blessed Fortitude
CL4
CL5 Crusader's Flurry
CL6 Snapping Turtle Shell
CL7 ???, Ki Pool
CL8
CL9 ???, Miraculous Fortitude
CL10
CL11 Improved Critical (Scimitar)
CL12 Snapping Turtle Clutch

* Retrain to Snapping Turtle Style at lv2

---

Warpriest - Dual Dwarven Maulaxes

Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Dexterity
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Intelligence
Dump Stats: Strength, Charisma
Armor: Elven Mail
Blessings: Good, Luck

CL1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Maulaxe)
CL2
CL3 Double Slice, Two-Weapon Fighting
CL4
CL5 Dual Enhancement
CL6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 ???
CL8
CL9 ???, ???
CL10
CL11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
CL12 Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Maulaxe)

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Champion of the Faith - Katana, One-Handed

Race: Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms)
Highest Stat: Dexterity
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Strength
Dump Stats: Charisma, Intelligence
Blessings: Good, Luck

Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Katana
CL2 Sws1 ???*, Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Focus, Chosen Alignment - Good
CL3 Wrp2 ???
CL4 Wrp3
CL5 Wrp4 ???
CL6 Wrp5 Weapon Specialization
CL7 Wrp6 ???, ???**, ???***
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 Critical Focus
CL11 Wrp10 Quick Draw
CL12 Wrp11

* Retrain to Slashing Grace at lv2
** Retrain to Improved Critical at lv8
*** Retrain to Piercing Critical at lv11
>> Carry several Katanas with you; When you score a Critical Hit, leave them embedded in the enemy with Piercing Critical and Quick Draw a new one.

I don't have the book yet, so all of this is just from what I've read from others describing it.

The Social Talents and social personality seem like it WOULD HAVE been a great way to make an infiltrator like the Master Spy - a whole menagerie of disguising, hiding-in-plain-sight in a crowd, etc. abilities which can be molded into the "superhero" motif through application and roleplaying.

Instead, it seems like it's vice-versa: you are a superhero/villain, and trying to turn the class into something other than a location-restricted masked-man is like pulling teeth.

I haven't picked up the book yet, but looking through discussions, it seems like the Social Talents all make you popular, and probably something like an aristocrat.

So, does that mean there are no ways to make Peter Parker, Clark Kent, or anyone else with a day job?

Did the devs go so hard into the "social butterfly" thing that there aren't Social Talents for mixing in with the dregs of society, or your average layman?

'Cause railroading players into making the Scarlett Pimpernel wouldn't exactly make me thrilled to pick up the book.

But if the Social Talents are wide enough that you can make characters from any walk of life, that'd be far more useful.

SwampTing wrote:

Flagged for offensive language. Thread title has the word 'homebrew'.

I'd really like to know the reasons why some people hate homebrew so much. Not to incite an argument, but I'm curious why.

Probably because homebrewed things often are a combination of:

1) very rarely playtested, so they're all over the place for both balance and ease-of-use

2) relatively unnecessary as existing features can probably already do what the homebrew feature attempts to do but better

3) extremely situational and/or fluff masquerading as mechanics & vice-versa

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A skilled & experienced player or DM CAN produce homebrew content that is balanced & just complex enough to fit the feature, is unique & fills a role better than any content existing (or which doesn't exist at all), is useful in many situations (rather than just "when this exact thing happens...) and is an appropriate mechanic that's actually a mechanic that doesn't force a certain style of RP, etc.

However, Sturgeon's Law being in effect at all times everywhere, for every 1 GOOD piece of homebrew content, there's another 9 pieces that are utter garbage.

So people look through 9 pieces of jank homebrew and by the time they reach the tenth, they're burnt out and assume that ALL homebrew is awful, so they don't read that one piece of gold in the large pile of turds.

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The fact that this isn't just experienced people putting up content (who have a better feel for the overall balance of a game), but also complete noobs or "wish fulfillers" who want something absolutely bokers only makes the problem more pronounced.

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Sadly, there are published works, as well, where overzealous writers throw in high levels of fluff into the mechanics, or have an ill-conceived sense of where the power of a game should be, etc., and the content ends up being wasted time & money.

That's the reason I don't allow 3rd Party works in my games - hell, I barely allow non-SRD Pathfinder things like the Toolkits, etc., until I've read through them and vetted them.

Pathfinder's SRD works have proven balanced enough for my group, and we know there's more than enough content for us to build worlds with as-written, magic items excluded (there's always a bit of customization with that). If a player's core concept doesn't seem quite possible, or they'd like to be altered ever-so-slightly, we tend to follow the "there's a magic item for that!" model, and the "fix" item because the target of a new fetch-quest (which helps to establish a goal for the next few sessions as well).

I've fiddled with the idea of allowing Dreamscarred Press' works in, because they've proven to be extremely balanced & well-written, as well, but so far no-one's really expressed any specific interest in pursuing that, so we've always just stuck with the SRD books.

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Anyway, that's my personal reason for being wary of "homebrew" stuff; not an out-and-out hatred, just having seen enough really awful homebrew things in my time that, unless something is a Magic Item, I'm probably going to be highly suspicious of it.

I'd imagine a number of other people follow basically the same outlook.

I typically don't homebrew Feats, Skills, Classes, Spells (unless the players specifically create their own spells, since there's a section listed there). Modding existing things, like Monkey Grip, sure.

I've homebrewed Rituals using the rules for creating Rituals in Occult Adventures, mainly as a means to reign in some of the more absurdly-powerful & campaign-breaking spells (can't cast 'em in combat, there's a distinct possibility of failure, and they're reduced to primarily out-of-combat or Downtime utility).

And Holy Mary Mother of Steve do I homebrew magic items.

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Basically, I'll homebrew things if there are particularly hard-and-fast rules for doing so.

I've created, for one campaign setting alone, over 700 magic items, ranging from Lv0 items to lv30 (using the old Magic Item Compendium level system as sorting reference).

This is precluding mundane or pseudo-magical items, etc.

15. "The Great Wyrm Red Dragon gives you a stone amulet."
"As you journey away from the keep, the Dragon releases the Polymorph Any Object enchantment on the amulet, immediately turning it back into a gigantic Pyramid which proceeds to fall on you. Do you WANT to roll the 10x10^17 d6 Crushing Damage, or can I just declare the entire party atomized?"

16. "I crawl into the Green Demon statue's mouth..."

By 17th level, the wizard can take over the world, no problem. If not violently, at the very least they can become the most valuable person on Earth. Interplanetary Teleport will make you the #1 go-to for space travel, Wish will net you a fortune from rich people who want... things. Polymorph Any Object will let you create temporary pseudo-life, Awaken is literally magic, crafting charms of Protection from Arrows will net you a fortune from the defense industry. You could become the go-to person for most services. You can pretend to be Razimir and set up your own religion based around your magic (and perhaps duplication of clerical magic via Wish and Lesser Wish). You can resurrect people!

Plus, Wizards can get protection from politicia... evil! I meant evil.

Sadly, though, you're still looking at enemies who would want to take you down. If they get enough of an army together, you're done.

An army of far less than 1 million is still well over a CR30, so a CR17 wouldn't be able to muscle their way out of that fight.

You could potentially have a greater army than the ones attacking you, but ultimately if they have more and better firepower than you, they'll win.

And Wishes require diamonds costing a very large amount - you'll run out of diamonds of that quality pretty quickly fighting a war.

I'm glad to see the class was wittled down to 2 Specializations, but I'm still not convinced that what needed to be done was actually done to this class.

It still sounds like the Fighter but with Class Options instead of Feats and even less actual baseline mechanics than Weapon and Armor Training... which isn't good.

"Modular" is shorthand for "godforsakenly awful unless you know exactly what you're doing"... which is a less-nice way of saying "PhD in System Mastery required".

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The Magical Child archetype allowing for a "transformation sequence" seems to hint towards the baseline Vigilante taking a fair amount of time to transform, which was one of the biggest complaints against the class in the Playtest (you'll be in one form over the other 90% of the time just because transforming takes far too long).

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I'm really hoping I'm wrong here, 'cause I usually like to put more faith in PF stuff, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this class probably still has far too much roleplaying fluff shoved sideways into it while being called "mechanics" than actually having hard mechanics that a Class rightly should have - since it gives the class more direct identity and makes building simpler & more intuitive.

Unless they've been neutered to innocuousness or non-integral status to the Class (like making a Base actually optional, instead of required or virtually required), the "fluffchanics" will remain not only awkward & restrictive (as they were in the playtest), but ultimately downright harmful to players (hope you're not caught in a surprise fight while in the wrong form...).

I'll still end up getting the book; I'll just make sure to look through a physical copy before buying it in case the class takes up a good chunk of the book and is still mostly as bad as the playtest was - if that ends up being the case, it might get put way on the backburner if the rest of the book doesn't make up for the bad stuff.

"You are a horrible person!"
"You think me's people! I LOVE YOU!"

So my question is this. At 7th level brawler, with sash of the war champion, I get armor training and bravery as though i was an 11th lvl fighter. At 11th fighter I get armor training 3, which lowers the armor check penalty by 3.

Wrong there, you don't gain abilities you don't have - you actually have to HAVE Armor Training and Bravery before the Sash counts you as a lv11 Fighter.

Now, if you were a Fighter 3 / Brawler 4 with a Sash, then, yes, you would actually count as a Fighter 11 in a prime example of very wonky rules interactions. (you have Armor Training 1 and Bravery normally, but the Sash ups your effective Fighter Level by +4, which triggers the effects of Martial Training, counting you in total as a baseline Fighter 7 plus 4 for the effects of that Sash).

So if i have mithral full plate, and this sash, i can put my armor check penalty to 0, meaning that if i don't have heavy armor proficiency (the brawler only gets light) then i'd have to take my armor check penalty to my attack rolls? so... I take -0 to all attack rolls, the armor training still allows me to move at full speed, and it's lighter (on top of getting bravery of 11th lvl fighter). I just want to make sure i'm reading all of this right.

IF you follow the course I mentioned before. A straight Brawler 7 doesn't, though, because the Sash can't increase what isn't there.

A 1-level dip into Standardbearer Cavalier will give you Banner, and Challenge so you can enter Battle Herald later.

chbgraphicarts wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Another system.

D20 Modern

Ew, sweet GOD no.

SpyCraft is d20 Modern that WORKS.

NEVER EVER use d20 Modern, unless you absolutely despise yourself.

Perhaps you could favor us with a link to Spycraft?

Why the D20 Modern hate? I've played it before, you know. It's lower powered than D20 Pathfinder, but it's certainly playable.

But sell me on it.

Spycraft 2.0

The most-glaring thing has always been that you have to play 1 of 6 NPC-ish classes in d20 Modern for several levels before you're allowed to take REAL classes.

Spycraft throws you right into actual classes.

Each class has an AC bonus that levels with them, it uses "Action Dice" which are a similar-yet-better system to PF's Hero Points, it makes use of Wounds & Vitality extensively with a slightly redesigned Critical System that ties into Action Dice (just confirming a Crit doesn't cause the Crit to happen - you have to spend Action Dice for a Crit to occur), which lets guns deal more baseline damage than melee weapons while not invalidating melee weapons entirely (melee weapons often have superior Crit Ranges).

Character creation is significantly more flexible, with the institution of Talents and Specialties (a system not unlike Traits, but also takes the place of Races, since SpyCraft assumes an all-Human group, though there are rules for abnormal characters in the rulebook).

The Combat system is significantly different than d20 Modern or Pathfinder. You have 2 "Half Actions" each round or 1 "Full Action." A Move Action, any Attack, or any Standard Action is a Half-Action. This means that you can always move & attack, move twice, or attack twice, even at lv1. Full Actions are Running, Charging, or anything else designated as a Full Action. There is no Full Attack Action - you get what you get.

There are significantly fewer Feat Trees, and what ones there are are not nearly as long and complex. Two-Weapon Fighting, for instance, is simply "If you have a Light or One-Handed Weapon in each Hand, you may make 1 Attack at a -2 Penalty with each of those weapons per Attack Action" so with 1 Feat you can get 4 Attacks per round from level 1, or you can move and Attack with both weapons (the catch being that you realistically can never get more than 5 Attacks per round - one from a haste/speed effect, and 4 from TWF).

Speaking of Feats, SpyCraft instituted scaling feats long before PF did, so feats which give a bonus to a skill or save don't suck once you hit later levels because they grow with you slowly over time.

It's a vastly more flexible and rewarding system than d20 Modern, and works with modern firearms and tech much better than normal D&D/d20 rules do.

Pathfinder is great for fantasy, but for real tech, SpyCraft is just leagues better.

Headfirst wrote:

I'm not sure anyone else agrees, but for my part, this is the argument and proof I'll be offering the next time my home table gets into this debate.

Except that it's a flawed premise if you're using it as a proof that balance doesn't matter much.

In the most straightforward flaw - power level isn't the ONLY reason pick a class - but it's still is one.

Ex: I don't know of anyone who would play a Core rogue when they had the option to play a U-rogue, as in that case power level is the only variable.

That holds true for many/most choices where you have Option A Version 1, and Option A Version 2.

Given the option of using a Pathfinder Barbarian and its D&D 3.5 version, almost everyone will go for the Pathfinder one because it's a straight-up upgrade and adds more versatility.

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However, some people see this and apply this reasoning as "when given a choice of options, almost everyone will go for the strongest option of all" which isn't true at all.

Take the Sorcerer and the Wizard - the classic example since d20 was created.

Few experienced players will deny that the Wizard is, in practice, far more terrifying than a Sorcerer, due in large part to the theoretically-unlimited number of spells they can prepare.

The "common sense" wisdom is that the Wizard, therefore, would be chosen over the Sorcerer almost any day of the week.

However, in practice, Wizards and Sorcerers are actually played in about equal amounts, even by experienced players and optimizers, for the sole reason that most players have a certain concept in mind when they're creating characters, and will choose the options that best fit that concept first, and THEN optimize for effectiveness after.

---

In the course of optimizing a concept, some aspects of the original concept will be discarded when it becomes obvious that those aspects end up noticeably weakening the character or making them far less effective in their more-useful aspects.

But, overall, the vast majority of players don't care if they're the "most effective;" "effective enough" is what tends to be where players would preferably set their characters' overall power, and even very few experienced optimizers will completely forego their core character concept to merely eek out a few more points of damage, getting a spell's success rate from 98% to 100%, etc.

There are, of course, players that DO care about getting the most DPR possible, the most unstoppable spells possible, and everything else that can be quantified, but they're an extremely small minority of players.

These are the players who "play to win," and whether you consider that a derogatory statement or not is up to you; that is what it is, and that's all - it's another style of play that some people find okay while others don't, and it's up to you and your group to decide if that's a playstyle you're all fine with.

---

Making an "omni-class," however, will neither create balance nor stop players from trying to build around a concept. It will actually do NOTHING to stop optimization at all, and end up simply preventing people from making mechanically-disparate characters.

It's a rule of game design that so long as there are 2 options, 1 will be "optimal" while the other will be "suboptimal."

In highly-competitive games, most players will choose the "optimal" options or counters to the "optimal" options, rather than go with their personal taste, because the entire goal is to beat others.

But since Pathfinder is a cooperative game, rather than a competitive game, and is heavily based around the enjoyment of playing a character for the sake of playing a character or just playing with a group of friends, most people won't be overly concerned with choosing the absolutely-most "optimal" options, and instead will choose a mix of options that they personally like and options which make the best use of those personal choices.

People like to play D&D and Pathfinder BECAUSE there are a wide variety of classes that all look, act, and mechanically ARE very different than one another.

One of the major complaints about 4E was how no classes had any actual mechanical differences than one another - unlike 3.5 or Pathfinder where Vancian spellcasters like a Wizard acted far differently than a Barbarian, which acted differently than a pseudo-caster like a Warlock/Kineticist, which acted differently than a Ki-based character like a Ninja.

Trying to make a game "balanced" by forcing everyone to play the same thing will just stifle creativity and do little to actually balance the situation, because there will ALWAYS be "better" or "more effective" options than others.

The idea is that the players all play nonmagical characters, not that the world is nonmagical. Magical NPCs and enemies (especially enemies) are fine.

Unless your characters are up for an extreme challenge, they are going to absolutely HATE you for this.

I can understand saying "Mundane Martials only" but you're going to need to give them magical gear at least.

Innate Item Bonuses only get you so far; when you're dealing with things like Flying monsters, Incorporeal monsters, Invisible monsters, etc., you really NEED some magical effects backup as a squishy human.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Another system.

D20 Modern

Ew, sweet GOD no.

SpyCraft is d20 Modern that WORKS.

NEVER EVER use d20 Modern, unless you absolutely despise yourself.

Pathfinder is really odd without ANY magic. Most options - especially Monsters - assume that PCs will have at least SOME manner of magic and/or magical gear.

You can make a campaign that's Mostly-Muggle by having Magic Items be found by PCs (but not bought at Crazy Achmed's Magic Item Emporium), disallowing Crafting, and by having only Martials, Alchemical Casters, and Psychic Casters be allowed.

Martials
Barbarian, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk, Unchained Monk, Ninja, Unchained Rogue, Samurai, Slayer, Swashbuckler, Skirmisher Ranger, Vigilante*

Alchemicals
Alchemist, Investigator

Psychics
Kineticist, Occultist, Medium, Mesmerist, Spiritualist, Psychic

You can also throw in Warrior of the Holy Light Paladin, as well (they lose spellcasting), but that might still be too overtly magical even without spells for your tastes.

---

You can also get around the need for common Magical Items by using the Innate Item Bonuses rules in Pathfinder Unchained.

Don't get me wrong, when I build a character, even if it is just an NPC, I want it to be as mechanically well built as I know how. I also, though, want all my characters to have a genuinely interesting back story and realistic characterization. I know that there are people who want maximized character power, and who also love immersive story play. I've just never met any.

I would probably fit into the "likes story and optimization equally", except most self-described heavy RP-ers probably wouldn't count me as such, since I tend to make up my characters' backstory rather quickly and on-the-fly, and my characters tend to be more or less everymen.

I've said before that most peoples' idea of "backstory" is something convoluted, melodramatic, and overly complex, and they tend to play their characters as grimdark drama characters who speak in painfully contrived & ultra-formal ways.

I summed this up as "You're playing Anakin Skywalker. Learn to play Han Solo, and you & everyone else will have a better time."

Since apparently we can still post, here's a thought:

Don't make the specific Alternate Identity something you get at lv1. No other class starts you off at "master of X" status; "master of X" is something you have to WORK for.

Right now, you're building the pyramid upside-down - give the Vigilante a generalized Bluff/Disguise ability that increases its capability to disguise itself (pretty much the Everyman Ability at 1st Level) and then LATER let it get major bonuses when in 1 specific alternate persona.

Just like Rangers have Favored Terrains and Favored Enemies, it would make sense that the Vigilante would have a Favored Persona (think Batman having Matches Malone); if, at lv5, the Vigilante chooses a specific persona from a specific walk of life (i.e. Warrior, Expert, Noble, or Commoner), and gets a noticeable bonus to Bluff and Disguise Checks when in that Persona, & then at lv10, 15, and 20 they choose ANOTHER persona to get similar bonuses to, THEN the class would not only fulfill the "dual identities" thing you've been pressing, but also make mechanical sense AND would be a reason to take this class for more than just 1 level.

Cevah wrote:

Qaianna wrote:

Let's say I finally get that +1 glammered agile breastplate.

Agile?

/cevah

It's a (+1, Glamered) (Agile Breastplate). Not a (+1, Glamered, Agile) (Breastplate).

They really should have just named it a "Cuirass" or something similar so that people didn't get confused by this.

'Course, since the dev teams for the Player's Companion line and the Roleplaying Game line are two different groups, it's not surprising there's a miscommunication.

so im making a natural attacker for a game im in that allows third party classes/archetypes so im wondering does the warpriest dmg from sacred weapon act differently then from unarmed strike increase dmg from monk ?

Punctuation, man - PUNCTUATION!!!

Anyway, yes and no.

A Monk's scaling Damage is for Unarmed Attacks alone.

A Warpriests' scaling Damage is for ANY weapon with which you have Weapon Focus OR is your Deity's Favored Weapon. ALSO, a Warpriests' scaling damage is based on the size of the Warpriest, not on the size of the Weapon (so no Large Weapons, sadly, and Impact is just COMPLETELY useless as an Enhancement Ability for you).

---

For Natural Attack builds, you can take Martial Versatility, which will give you Weapon Focus with all of your Natural Weapons.

Once you have access to a Natural Weapon, enter into Warpriest to gain Weapon Focus with that Weapon.

At Warpreist 3, take a generic Combat Feat as a filler for your Bonus Combat Feat; at Warpriest 4, Retrain your Bonus Combat Feat to be Martial Versatility.

The reason you do this is that your Warpriest levels count as Fighter levels ONLY for Bonus Combat Feats; so your 3rd level BCF looks at your Warpriests levels at lv4 and counts them as 4 levels of Fighter, which is what's needed for Martial Versatility.

From that point on, ALL weapons in the Natural Weapon Category gain Weapon Focus INCLUDING Unarmed Strikes

---

Since you'll want to focus on multiple Natural Weapons, you actually don't want to take a base Warpriest, and taking Sacred Fist is just a waste of time for you, honestly, because of how Feral Combat Training got utterly destroyed with the errata (You'd have to charge each and every Natural Weapon separately with Sacred Weapon's enhancement ability, and spend 1 Round per Weapon, meaning you'd eat up rounds very quickly).

Instead, you want to be a Champion of the Faith.

CoF Warpriests trade out the lv4+ ability to apply Enhancement Bonuses and Abilities to your Sacred Weapon, and instead gain a Smite ability, plus the ability to naturally grant the weapon the Holy/Unholy/Axiomatic/Anarchic Enhancement Ability to your Weapon.

This is better for you because you retain the Scaling Damage of Sacred Weapon (just not the Enhancement sub-ability), and Smite applies itself to ALL Attack and Damage Rolls made during a Smite, meaning every single Natural and Unarmed Attack you make is going to get a Bonus to hit (that STACKS with Enhancement Bonuses) equal to the Charisma, and a Bonus to Damage equal to your Warpriest level.

In short, whatever you are targeting for your Smite is going to be reduced to a fine red mist in very short order.

I brought this up in another thread, but it's better to ask here.

Let's say I finally get that +1 glammered agile breastplate. I have it glammered into a fine gown for the fancy ball, and then the fancy ball gets attacked. Would the resulting bloodstains actually be on the glammered dress, would they disappear when you turn it back to armour (or some other outfit), or would it only show when back in its native form?

(You can replace bloodstains with other effects that you think would be important, and assume that for reasons no-one feels like casting prestidigitation on me to clean off. Maybe I just keep saving against it despite how much the party wants me to clean up now.)

Upon command, a suit of glamered armor changes shape and appearance to assume the form of a normal set of clothing. The armor retains all its properties (including weight) when it is so disguised. Only a true seeing spell or similar magic reveals the true nature of the armor when it is disguised.

It seems very likely that:

1) You turn the dress into a Ballgown on Command
2) You get into a fight and it gets bloody - this stays on the ballgown.
3) You use another Command, effectively replacing the first Glammer and hiding the blood
4) If you ever take the Glammer off and make it look like Armor again, the bloodstains reappear.

The fact that Glammered Armor changes shape and appearance but never substance makes it so that anything that actually HAPPENS to the armor, etc., remains, including damage done to it, rusting, getting dirty, etc.

Glammer just kinda goes on-top and can be reset, but the underlying reality doesn't change.

THe primary and off hand are considered 'used' for IUS even if you 'flavor' them as kicks or headbutts.

This prevents people from then trying to stack natural attacks on top of UA attacks by saying 'I'ma kick with IUS for those attacks, and then attack with my claws!" Nope, can't do it. The limbs for the claw attacks are considered to be 'in use' for fighting, even if you're kicking.

==Aelryinth

Actually, Natural Attacks ARE allowed to be used with normal Unarmed Attacks during a normal Full Attack Action even with Unarmed Strikes. It just has to be a normal Full Attack Action - not a Flurry.

A Monk's Flurry of Blows, a Brawler's Flurry, and an Unchained Monk's Flurry all specifically say that Natural Attacks cannot be used with the Flurry, nor does Two-Weapon Fighting allow for any more attacks than what is prescribed. Basically, you're trading a potentially-greater number of total Attacks via Natural Attacks for the ability to get a lot of Attacks without actually having to pay for TWF/ITWF/GTWF.

Some devs (or ex-devs), like SKR, aren't happy that Natural Attacks can be used this way, and feel that you shouldn't be able to make more Attacks, Natural or Otherwise, in a round than your total Base Attack allows for; however, at the end of the day, it does, regardless of what they feel. Not only is it a matter of RAW, it's also demonstrated by their own Stat Blocks for monsters and NPCs.

Even when not using twf?

I guess it would only count if you are actually using twf

It's more complicated than that.

Under a normal Full Attack Action you can use Unarmed Attacks and Natural Attacks together; if you have a Bite and 2 Claws and 2 iterative Attacks (meaning you've got a +6-+11), you can go:

Unarmed (BAB+0) / Bite (BAB-5) / Claw (BAB-5) / Claw (BAB-5) / Unarmed (BAB-5)

If you naturally have Two-Weapon Fighting, meaning TWF provided from Feats ONLY, you can go:

Unarmed (BAB-2) / Unarmed (BAB-2) / Bite (BAB-5) / Claw (BAB-5) / Claw (BAB-5) / Unarmed (BAB-7)

Flurry Abilities, however, specifically disallow for Natural Attacks to be used in addition to or as PART of a Flurry.

The reasons are pretty much this:

Natural Attacks, when used in tandem with normal Attacks, including Unarmed Attacks, ALL become Secondary Natural Attacks, meaning that they are made at your BAB-5 and deal [dice]+1/2 Strength damage; you cannot, however, use a Natural Attack more than the number of Natural Weapons of that type you have in a Full Round Action, and you can't make iterative Attacks with them (so you MUST have 2 Claw Attacks to make 2 claw attacks, etc.), but you ALSO don't add the -2 Penalty from Two-Weapon Fighting to Attacks made with them, so it's all about the trade-offs.

Offhand Attacks ALSO normally deal [dice]+1/2 Strength, but can be increased with the Dual Slice Feat to your normal Strength mod.

Flurry Abilities add additional Attacks either by simulating or directly giving access to the TWF Feat Tree OR by simply giving Extra Attacks flat, AND they bypass the need for Dual Slice.

Flurries, however, don't stack with real TWF feats, and Natural Attacks can't be used with them because they specifically say as much; you need to take a Feat to even be ABLE to use a Natural Attack in place of one of your normal Attacks made as part of a Flurry.

Since you already naturally get a greater number of Attacks without any effort besides just BEING a Flurry class, adding Natural Attacks on top of these would allow for builds that can spam 5+ attacks per round by lv5 without much or any extra effort.

I mean that is the same anyways. Does that mean I cant take improved twf?

There is a rules clarification that says: "If you have consistent and reliable access to a prerequisite for a Feat, you may take that Feat" with the caveat of "you only have the abilities of the dependent feat while you meet all Prerequisites".

Brawlers, unlike a Monk, legitimately have Two-Weapon Fighting every time they make a Full Attack Action using the Brawler's Flurry ability.

Therefore, yes, so long as you meat the Dexterity and Base Attack Bonus requirements of ITWF and GTWF, you may take them both as paid-for Feats or through Martial Flexibility.

You ONLY may use those Feats when you use Brawler's Flurry, but you generally wouldn't want to do any Two-Weapon Fighting WITHOUT it being Brawler's Flurry anyway.

By the way, I use this equation for figuring out the Strength Checks necessary when producing an effect:

Check = (Minimum Modifier Value needed to perform the action, rounded up) +20

So Push/Drag 1500 Pounds is a DC24 Strength check. Meanwhile Lifting 300 Pounds also requires DC24 Strength check.

This is because out of combat you can always Take 20 and receive these values. Meanwhile, in the midst of Combat or when you can't focus, you are extremely unlikely to be able to perform these difficult tasks.

That makes sense. I guess it's just weird to me that a character who could normally lift up to 1600 lbs (3200 if they're large) only has a 25% chance of breaking out of a medium sized net

Radically different muscle groups.

Also, PHYSICS!!!

When you lift something above your head, you're using Momentum, which is Force times Time.

Force, in turn, is Mass times Velocity.

The Mass is the overall Mass of all muscles used, while Velocity is the speed at which you can expand your muscles from relaxed to flexed.

The longer you can produce continuous Force, the greater your Momentum. When you are unconstricted, you have a much greater range of freedom of movement, thus you can radically increase the number of muscles used and so increase the overall Mass to increase the total amount of Force; simultaneously, you lengthen the amount of Time this Force is applied, thus increasing your Momentum substantially, and so you're able to lift significant amounts of weight overhead.

When you are constricted, however, the Time of your Force is next-to-none, and since your Mass is a constant, the Velocity must be explosive. This is EXTREMELY hard to do, however, as you are limited by a number of biological factors, including overall muscle size and strength of your muscle fibers, amount of lactic acid, etc.

Breaking bonds, then, is unbelievably difficult, because it requires you to flex a very large number of muscles in your body all at once, all in an explosion of force, with a very, very short amount of time with no real ability to build up momentum.

It's for this reason why men who're able to pull plains in real life can't easily burst through ropes wrapped tightly around them.

Then you have the issue of tearing a rope Net. Rope, when not taut, is a very flexible material, therefore it can absorb an incredible amount of Force and Momentum before snaps despite its relatively low mass; when you form it into a net, you are increasing the total area of material that can absorb this energy and disperse it throughout, while at the same time constricting your movement and limiting the number of muscles you are able to use, decreasing the Mass you are able to apply, thus decreasing the Momentum.

A Barred Door, also a CR25, however, is a very rigid material, and will not disperse the energy nearly as well - the wood, which cannot flex, will crack and break despite its large mass.

Also, since you are able to use more muscles and apply more energy over a larger area, you are able to apply more Thrust to your action (Thrust = Momentum x Area), and overall expend less effort doing so; tearing a Rope, on the other hand, is applying Momentum over a very, very small Area, thus meaning you need to expend more Momentum, and thus Effort, in order to gain the same amount of overall Thrust.

In other words, you'll probably actually be much more tired when trying to tear a net apart than breaking a door down, according to real-world physics.

So, in that regard, there is a bit of sense as to why the amount of "Effort" (i.e. CR), that needs to be expended by a character is relatively equal.

They're not third party, but have you included yithians, or mi-go?

-Ben.

Also Elder Things.

Don't forget the Elder Things.

I am not shocked that he had his character do that, but rather the response to "Please, don't do that. It makes me uncomfortable."

See, I'm kinda the opposite - I've only met a few true morons who had the legendary lack of tact to say "hey, Imma have my character RAPE somebody!" I know they exist, but would like to believe that they're such a small percentage of the population as to be almost nonexistent.

However, I have seen more neckbeards throw a fit over people NOT being cool with them pulling an obvious dick move, resulting in the fine examples of Neckbeardus Basementdwellerus flipping out, flipping the TABLE, and shouting "IT'S JUST A GAME / IT'S WHAT MY CHARACTER WOULD DO, YOU FACISTS!!!" than I would care to admit.

Said Neckbeards, unsurprisingly, generally play X-Neutral or X-Evil characters in order to be able to play the sociopaths they wish they could be and be vindicated for it because "that's what Neutral/Evil characters do" (bearing in mind that this doesn't mean all players who like to play Neutral/Evil characters are neckbeards - lots of players like to play Neutral/Evil characters because they enjoy antiheroes or Byronic heroes like John Constantine, V, etc.)

So, really, it surprises me that he had the utter GALL to initiate a rape scene in a game, but it DOESN'T surprise me that he threw a tantrum once people called "WTF, DUDE!?"

There're a LOT of people who would agree that torture, rape, and similar things are actually much worse than murder. Which, yeah, I agree with and would have been in the same mindset of "SERIOUSLY, DUDE!?"

Here's the thing, though: the "charm someone into sleeping with them" thing is a common plot element in literature and mythology, used by a whole LOT of characters throughout various mythologies.

These characters are usually evil or at the least SERIOUSLY morally ambiguous; if they're treated as okay, it's usually because the story is from a time/society where things were that screwed up (half of the Heroes of Greek Mythology came from Zeus tricking women into sleeping with him).

So, TECHNICALLY he's not wrong that a Neutral Evil character would be within bounds to do that. However, Even Evil Has Standards, and as the party you're generally assumed to be SOMEWHAT heroic, even if you're still otherwise unrepentantly Evil.

You're not wrong to say you're uncomfortable with the whole mess, and any reasonable human being would be apologetic and find a way to play their character as "Neutral Evil" without making the other players feel uncomfortable.

Let the DM know that there are just some things that are NOT okay, and you guys feel that this is one of those things. "It's just a game" is NOT a justification for making players feel uncomfortable.

There're already a number of Classes which let you play Dragonball-style character.

Qinggong Monk gives you Ki and lets you use Ki to cast spells like Scorching Ray.

Bloodrager gets you the blasting, flying, etc., and Rages like going Super Saiyan.

Warpriest "Powers up" every round on the round by burning Ki. Sacred Fist ESPECIALLY is a Monk which "powers up" practically constantly. BOTH can perform a Kamehameha with Blood Crow Strike.

In all honesty, I can't think of a damn thing in Dragonball that can't be done (at least in theme, though not overall power), that can't be accomplished by simply playing a Sacred Fist/Bloodrager Gestalt or simply Multiclass.

chbgraphicarts wrote:

All you need to know is a Google search away

It just mentions the title of the book, nothing about what is specifically inside the books contents. Is it about all the other outsiders (like LN, TN, and CN), does it contain a history of the war between the higher and lower planes, is it a guide for polishing Asmodeus' horns? What is in it that Tabris would present it alongside the Chronicle of the Righteous and the Book of the Damned?

I'll even provide the text. Pg. 16 of the "Hell Unleashed" campign settings book, first paragraph under the "Legend" section:

"The legend of the angel Tabris, who accepted Heaven’s charge to create a complete accounting of all knowledge in existence, is a familiar tragedy among the Outer Planes. Tabris wandered through all existence, but vanished into evil realms. For eons he was presumed lost, but finally staggered, bare and bleeding, back to the shores of Heaven. Before the celestial choirs he presented three ragged, hand-penned tomes: the Chronicle of the Righteous, the Concordance of Rivals, and the Book of the Damned. These, he claimed, fulfilled his charge."

It's an Artifact. That's really all you need to know about it.

It's not described in Occult Mysteries, but it might be in Lost Treasures.

It may very well be the Lost Gospels of Tabris, as described in the Occult Mysteries, is the "Concordance of Rivals". Both the Chronicles of the Righteous and the Book of the Damned are named and described, while the Concordance is named but not detailed while The Lost Gospels is detailed and ascribed to Tabris but not properly named. It's logical to assume, then, that the Concordance is, in fact, the Lost Gospels.

Or it could just be a book that's mentioned that hasn't been detailed yet.

So, unless you make it a point of trying to FIND a copy of it, which your DM may or may not allow as it's an Artifact, after all, you should probably just go with "it's a book and it's an Artifact."

For example you need stunning fist in order to get dragon ferocity

You wouldn't use Dragon Ferocity by itself regardless.

Pummeling Style is the best weapon that Unarmed combatants have, and that is available to a Warpriest starting at lv1. But you can't have both Pummeling AND Dragon Styles active naturally with any Class besides Monk as-is.

If you want to COMBINE Dragon Ferocity with Pummeling Style, then yes, you need to dip Master of Many Styles. Just like everyone else in the game, including Brawlers.

---

Even then, there are a number of other possible builds using pure Sacred Fist that doesn't combine styles - Crane Style is now a fairly useful defense strategy, as is Snapping Turtle Style.

However, Styles are BEST when used in tandem, which means that ANYONE, not just Sacred Fists, who want to do so are going to need to dip 1-2 levels into MoMS.

Dipping into MoMS for a Snapping Turtle/Crane Style combo yields a character with a nifty AC that can then counterattack easily.

Swashbuckler 1/Warpriest X will make you very effective at using a Rapier (C.C.'s favored weapon) and make you a Divine warrior.

Drunken Brute Barbarian 2/Warpriest X will let you rage & drink like a madman, which is in the spirit of C.C.

You can also go Drunken Brute Barbarian 1 / Primalist Bloodrager X (Celestial Bloodline), taking Good For What Ails You and Liquid Courage.

Drunken Brute Barbarian 4 / Oracle 1 / Rage Prophet X will get you basically a Divine version of the Bloodrager mentioned above.

While reading the Hell Unleashed campaign setting book, I came across the "Concordance of Rivals" while reading about the Book of the Damned. What is the Concordance of Rivals?

All you need to know is a Google search away

I just realized. As a sacred fist warpriest you are literally forced to dip monk to able to get any use from your "bonus style feats". Since most of the time you need monk abilities/levels to get them.

I think I'm giving up on my sacred fist.

No, you are not "literally" forced to dip at all.

You WANT to dip Monk of Many Styles in order to get 2 Style Feats at lv1-2 and the ability to have 2 Styles active at the same time.

Re-read Sacred Fist - you count your SF levels as Monk Levels for the purposes of qualifying for those Bonus Style/Style-Dependent Feats.

Only 1 Style Feat requires you to have Stunning Fist as a prereq.

POPE SAVATE THE JERK, PATRON SAINT OF KICKS & CURBSTOMPS
Human Champion of the Faith Warpriest

Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 Combat Reflexes
CL6 Wrp6 Improved TWF, Greater Trip
CL7 Wrp7 Adept Champion
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Vicious Stomp, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus

"He keeps kickin' me in the dick... WHY DOES HE KEEP KICKIN' ME IN THE DICK!?"
- Vegeta, Prince of All Saiyans

One of the biggest complaints against Combat Maneuvers is that they get ridiculously hard to fire off as you get higher in levels (due to higher CR enemies being physically massive and having ludicrous CRDs as result).

Adept Champion, however, makes it much, MUCH easier, since your bonuses to perform Combat Maneuvers come from both your Charisma and 1/2 your Warpriest level, meaning you're getting pretty MASSIVE bonuses on succeed on Tripping.

And since you already have a high Dexterity from Weapon Finesse and TWF, you also gets LOTS of Attacks of Opportunity with Combat Reflexes, so your main M.O. is Trip > AOO Kick > AOO Stomp > Remaining Attacks.

You know that Grey Aliens, aka Anunnaki, are going to be in Bestiary 5, right?

I wouldn't necessarily say that- or Zenkai as a whole- is truly in theme with the saiyan race.

It was noted throughout Dragonball that Goku had this odd quality that he would fight someone, get his ass kicked, and then later come back even stronger and whoop their ass.

Goku's ability to gain immense amounts of power both from training for a relatively short time, as well as the aforementioned "What doesn't kill you" shtick was finally brought to light as not just a coincidence but a legit aspect of Saiyan genetics in the Namek saga, especially since it became a quality used AGAINST Goku and Gohan, as Vegeta became an enormous threat literally overnight, and was the major motivation for Frieza to destroy Planet Vegeta (well, that and Beerus asked him to, and you don't say "no" to Beerus unless you're Whis).

The Beerus thing was a retcon, yes, but the fact that Frieza wasn't too keen on keeping around an entire species of psychotically-proud & angry slaves who literally became twice as strong every time they got their asses kicked in battle.

Cell made this even worse, since he was just a freaking gamebreaker: he had the regenerative powers of a Namekian, combined with the Zenkai power-up ability of a Saiyan, and the raw power of Frieza's race, among other races.

Even in the Buu arc, the fact that Gohan nearly died and was then healed helped initially bring him back up to his Cell Games level of power before becoming "Ultimate Gohan," where his base form alone is as strong as a Super Saiyan 3.

---

So, yeah, "Zenkai" is a legit aspect of the characters; even if Toriyama at first didn't codify it, the fact that Goku had the ability to become stronger after a defeat existed from basically the second storyline onwards (the initial "find the dragonablls!" storyline had him being basically invincible, after all).

I like 90% of Pathfinder Unchained, but that 10% that in the middle of chapter one just irks me in a number of ways. I like the overall concept of the monk enough and can work with the new version and house-rules with our GMs to work in some archetypes to it so that I'll play one. I just really wish that Paizo had been listening to us all this time when they decided what they were going to do to 'fix' the monk. It wasn't that hard with the rogue, that class went nowhere but up, so I have to believe the same was possible here. Why not, I have no idea.

The Monk needed a secondary ability which upped the accuracy of Flurry.

Basically, at lv5, they get a +2 to all Attacks Rolls and +1 to all Damage Rolls when Flurrying. At lv10 and every 5th level thereafter, they gain an additional +1 to Attack and Damage Rolls

That'd basically negate the penalty to Flurry at lv5, and at lv10 (so you'd be going +11/+11/+6/+6), and dealing +2 damage as well.

That alone would have made the Monk a lot more of a beatstick than it currently is, and even more than the Unchained Monk.

Then it could have simply gained Monk Techniques, basically Rogue Talents and sometimes powered by Ki, at lv2, lv4, and every even level thereafter, Advanced Techniques at lv10, and they choose one of several Ultimate Techniques at lv20.

That would have given the Monk a lot more options like they wanted, and it would have left the basic Monk chassis unaltered (and thus would have left all the Monk Archetypes intact).

So I have been looking at the Unchained classes I like the rogue but Im not sure about the others what are the boards thoughts on all four of these classes?

Unchained Barbarian is fine by itself, but is a garbled mess when you try to stick any non-Core options onto it, and even a fair number of Core options create gigantic rules snarls with it. I personally hate the class for these very problems it creates (meanwhile I love the basic Barbarian), and don't allow it in my games BECAUSE it creates so many headaches that stop the game dead by trying to figure out the interactions.

Unchained Rogue is Best Rogue, or at least it's a complete replacement for the Core Rogue. I don't even allow Core Rogue anymore because of how underpowered it is compared to the Unchained Rogue (especially since UnRogue is a direct upgrade, and every Archetype and option which worked for the Core Rogue work also works for the UnRogue).

Unchained Monk is a good Alternate Class for the Core Monk. RAW it doesn't work with any of the normal Monk Archetypes; however, Master of Many Styles and a few others SHOULD logically work because they target hard aspects of the class, not abilities which became Ki Powers.

Unchained Summoner is iffy - the majority of people, especially DMs, are actually okay with the redesign because the original Summoner was just insane; it required a LOT of Character Sheet Accounting on the DM's part to make sure players didn't accidentally make uber-Eidolons, and its spell list was so potent that even newbs could make obscenely overpowered characters by accident (vs the 9th-level casters, which can be godawful in a newb's hands).

Then again, some people absolutely despise the nerf, and even people who agreed that the class needed to get hit with the nerf-bat are sore that Eidolon's aren't as amorphic as they had been; meanwhile others (including me) are giddy over the fact that they now can command Demons, Angels, etc.

But I do agree that Great Apes should have a dex penalty, because everything that grows larger in pathfinder has dex penalties. I don't think Vegeta should be an exception.

And looking at the fight between Goku and Vegeta as a Great Ape, there was a Chase, and Vegeta didn't duck and weave around those rock formations so much as just run them the f&&~ over, while Goku is bouncing all over the place trying to avoid Vegeta hitting him.

Note that everything I'm saying about Saiyans and Great Apes is from the Dragonball comic, Battle of Gods/Resurrection F/Super only; no filler things from Dragonball Z and nothing from Dragonball GT - GT never was canon to the original comic, and it's deader-than-dead now that Toriyama's stated that Dragonball Super is the official continuation of the comic. Broly isn't, either - none of the movies before Battle of Gods is canon to the comic, and Super overrides even the movies where the storylines conflict.

Xethik wrote:

There is an issue of perception. More dice = more good to a lot of people, ignoring the fact that flat bonuses can easily overtake a fistful of d6s. 'Oh man, you can add 5d6 to every attack?! That's crazy, my Fighter only does 2d6 damage with his attacks' ignoring the fact that the Fighter adds 12 flat damage that IS multiplied on a crit.

Well, if you just want to do a basic comparison, you can use the average, with a huge honking asterisk representing that you're seeing really different values depending on the standard deviation of the possible values.

As a quickie rule of thumb, though, 2d6 = +7. I'd call the 5d6 roughly a 17 point equivalent, with the 2d6+12 fighter being a 19 point equivalent. I would note, though, that the fighter is probably doing more consistent damage due to lack of variability, while the rogue sneak attacking is more feast or famine.

At that point, we can start including multipliers in our analysis and things shift more.

The other thing to consider in all this is that Rogues are the iconic class to Two-Weapon Fight... to the point that Rogues really SHOULD get Two-Weapon Fighting, ITWF, and GTWF as Rogue Talents along with their built-in Finesse Training.

Those extra dice start adding up when you're clocking in more hits than a Fighter.

But then accuracy starts to get involved, too, which throws a wrench into the matter, as does the fact that the TWF only ends up netting 2 more Attacks per Full Attack than normal.

Realistically, you need to look at a Rogue being (damage)+1 at lv1, (damage)+2 at lv3, (damage)+3 at lv5, etc., because that's what you can actually count on. Anything above that is just theoretical and should be considered icing on the cake.

So at lv19, you're doing (damage)+10 per each attack that hits. Which is still nice, but it's nowhere NEAR "broken", especially considering that the Fighter is getting 2 more damage than your baseline, AND it's multiplied on a Critical, which Sneaks aren't.

So, yeah - Rogue SEEMS super spamtastic for Damage, and it sometimes IS, but it's more often just good damage, not freakish.

The oozaru form shouldn't have a a Dex penalty. When Vegeta transformed he still was insanely fast and maybe even more than in humanoid form

Dexterity =/= Speed.

You can be slow as a glacier and extremely dextrous; conversely, you can be fast as lightning and still be a clumsy f#!#.

Vegeta, while stupidly fast as a Great Ape, is also very, very lumbering, and wouldn't count as "dexterous" by any means.

chbgraphicarts wrote:

What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).

Or unlike every other Saiyan in existence, Gohan simply had a mother who taught him humility and proper manners.

Goten had the same mom, though...

SAIYAN NOBLE

Standard Racial Traits

Ability Score Racial Traits: Saiyan Nobles are a stronger and tougher than normal Saiyans, but also proud to a fault. Saiyans gain +4 Str, +4 Con, and -4 Cha.
Type: Saiyans are humanoids with the saiyan subtype.
Size: Saiyans are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Saiyans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Saiyans begin play speaking Common.

Feat & Skill Racial Traits

Iron-Sided (Ex) Saiyan Nobles begin play with Toughness as a Bonus Feat

Prehensile Tail (Ex) A Saiyan has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.

Senses Racial Traits

Low-Light Vision (Ex) Saiyans have Low-Light Vision.
Scent (Ex) Saiyans have the Scent extraordinary ability

Other Racial Traits

Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan Noble heals Hit Point Damage sustained in Combat, she gains 1 Experience Point for every Hit Point healed this way.

Change Shape (Ex)On nights when the full moon is visible, a Saiyan with a Tail observing the Moon becomes a Great Ape. When in this form, her size becomes Gargantuan, she gains a +6 Size Modifier to Strength and Constitution, a -6 modifier to her Dexterity, a +8 Bonus to her Natural Armor, -4 Modifier to AC, her type changes to Monstrous Humanoid (Great Ape), and she gains a Bite Attack.
While in Great Ape form, a Saiyan Noble may enter a Rage as a Free Action as the Barbarian Class Feature of the same name, treating her total HD as her Barbarian Level for determining the duration and Bonuses of this Rage, and her Great Ape modified constitution value as her base Constitution value for the purposes of determining the duration of this Rage.
She becomes Exhausted when she reverts back to her original Form for a number of Minutes equal to twice the number of Rounds she was transformed.
A Saiyan reverts to her normal form the following morning or if her Tail is severed.

Try something more like this, honestly:

SAIYAN

Standard Racial Traits

Ability Score Racial Traits: Saiyans are a strong, tough race, who, as a result, are stubborn, blunt, and often standoffish. Saiyans gain +2 Str, +2 Con, and -2 Cha.
Type: Saiyans are humanoids with the saiyan subtype.
Size: Saiyans are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Saiyans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Saiyans begin play speaking Common.

Feat & Skill Racial Traits

Iron-Sided (Ex) Saiyans begin play with Toughness as a Bonus Feat

Prehensile Tail (Ex) A Saiyan has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.

Senses Racial Traits

Low-Light Vision (Ex) Saiyans have Low-Light Vision.
Scent (Ex) Saiyans have the Scent extraordinary ability

Other Racial Traits

Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan heals Hit Point Damage sustained in Combat, she gains 1 Experience Point for every 2 Hit Points healed this way.

Weaknesses

Change Shape (Ex)On nights when the full moon is visible, a Saiyan with a Tail observing the Moon must make a DC35 Will Save or become a Great Ape. When in this form, her size becomes Gargantuan, she gains a +6 Size Modifier to Strength and Constitution, a -6 modifier to her Dexterity, a +8 Bonus to her Natural Armor, -4 Modifier to AC, her type changes to Monstrous Humanoid (Great Ape), and she gains a Bite Attack.
When she Changes Shape, a Saiyan must make a DC30 Will Save or automatically enter an Uncontrolled Rage, as the Class Feature of the Wild Rager Barbarian Archetype (treating her Hit Dice as her Barbarian Level the bonus provided by this effect). She remains in this Rage for as long as her Shape is Changed. She becomes Exhausted when she reverts back to her original Form for a number of Minutes equal to twice the number of Rounds she was transformed.
A Saiyan reverts to her normal form the following morning or if her Tail is severed.

Sensitive Tail Saiyans with Tails have a considerable weakness to harm caused to it. While her Tail is tightly gripped, such as when a Grapple is made against it as a Called Shot (AC modifier equal to that of an Arm), she is Stunned for the entire time that the Tail is Grappled.

This link was added to the clipboard by drive itself, so it should work better for people.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1btIpFEZ4TWkzT3AU4Lp4lQXe-V558tij2C9EMTI smZc/edit?usp=sharing

Just, overall, what do people think of the race itself.

The Stats don't particularly add up.

Goku and Vegeta are both tough as nails, yes, but Nappa wasn't shown to be particularly dextrous.

At the same time, while Goku and Nappa are both dumb as boards, Raditz seemed of average-to-above-average intelligence, and Vegeta is both highly intelligent and surprisingly wise.

Saiyans, prior to Goku's and Vegeta's offspring, were naturally neither that incredibly tough nor that insanely strong - they have the POTENTIAL to be, but most Saiyans in the Dragon Ball universe only had a Power Level of a few hundred (i.e. more than enough to eradicate a planet's population by themselves, but not very impressive in the grand scheme of Frieza's forces.

What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).

Instead of the +4 to Con, perhaps just:

+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha, plus Toughness as a Racial Bonus Feat.

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Additionally, you're missing THE key ability of Saiyans, which isn't the ability to transform into a Great Ape - it's Zenkai, or the ability of a Saiyan to grow more powerful the closer they come to death.

Perhaps make it something like:

Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan heals Hit Points lost by Damage from Combat, he gains 1xp for every 2 Hit Points regained.

---

The Great Ape mode should be a racial drawback, akin to uncontrolled Lycanthropy. Normal and Half-Saiyans with Tails, like Goku and Gohan, should follow the same rules as a Lycanthrope when transformed.

The ability to control the Great Ape mode should be a Feat reserved for powerful Saiyans alone (or, like Drow Nobles, a Saiyan Noble like Vegeta has control over his Great Ape form naturally, and has a much-higher RP value as a result).

Half-Saiyans should NOT have Great Ape as a default ability - Toriyama himself has said that the Tail is a recessive genetic trait, which is why both Trunks and Goten don't have Tails, nor does Pan when she's born. Instead, that should be an Alternate Racial Trait for them.

---

Saiyan Tails should not be attacks in the slightest; Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, nor Nappa used their Tails as a Tail Slap, and only Raditz was ever shown to do so.

Raditz could have gained a Tail Slap as a Race Feat.

Instead, it should be a straight-up Prehensile Tail like a Tiefling's.

Normal Saiyans should also gain a drawback in the form of being Stunned while their Tails are Grappled.

Saiyan Nobles (like Vegeta), should not have this drawback.

---

Artificial Moon is NOT a Racial Trait.

It's a Feat, and one that should require a high Character Level and/or sufficiently-high Stats.

The strangler brawler loses the unarmed strike class feature, but retains close weapon mastery that gives close weapons the unarmed strike class features damage -4 levels.

Does this still function as it would for a regular brawler, or does it do absolutely nothing and should have been traded out?(perhaps for bypassing the improved unarmed requirement for grapple feats - preferably not delayed until level 5 though)

You basically don't get the increased damage until lv5.

The Exemplar Brawler does the same thing - you don't get scaling damage until lv5, while normal brawlers get it at lv1 (for Unarmed damage at least).

The reason this works is that it says:

At 5th level, a brawler's damage with close weapons increases. When wielding a close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of A brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that weapon (for example, a 5th-level Medium brawler wielding a punching dagger deals 1d6 points of damage instead of the weapon's normal 1d4).

Since it says "A Brawler 4 levels lower", not "YOUR Brawler level minus 4" or anything else that bases it on your own scaling damage, the game looks at a baseline Brawler for reference, thus it still works.

Now, here's the interesting thing: Unarmed Strikes ARE Close Weapons themselves, so they ALSO get scaling damage starting at lv5; you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike, so you'll have to Martial Flexibility it in or spend a Feat for it, but at lv5, you'll be able to use your Unarmed Strikes and deal 1d6 as well.

Im not sure there is a difference between Revised or Second Edition. A new Edition, Revised or Second does not need to follow the D&D modle, and really thats one of the few cases where an Edition is radically different than the ones before it. Heck, it might honestly be the only case, but its not the norm. Can we stop pretending that a new Edition would likely outdate older books and setting? I mean none of the FAQs, Errata, or new printings have except in a few cases like with the ACG. Its not really that realistic of a possibility, so can we stop assuming it is, please?

Except that World of Darkness also followed this suit, and the Old World of Darkness books generally don't mesh at all with the New World of Darkness books.

Warhammer 40k, for not being an RPG, has also fallen into these problems - while the minis themselves are still usable, some armies (Da Orkz) have done for several rules iterations without updates, and other armies have had such radical redesigns for their units' functions that older books and codexes are no longer valid.

Champions going from 5th to 6th Edition caused a lot of builds to become really mangled when converting from the old edition to the new.

Shadowrun moving from their 3rd to their 4th Edition caused a lot of snarls, considering how radically the entire base system was redesigned.

D&D is the most-prominent game to have this "Edition Wars" problem, but it's hardly the only - it's actually fairly common in tabletop games, and it's a legitimate concern for a lot of fans.

---

You are right in that there ARE ways for there to be a Pathfinder Revised CRB that radically change some basic aspects of the game without affecting the text or applicability of subsequent books, but doing so will take quite a bit of ducking and weaving by the devs regardless.

B. Take class levels in different classes
C. Advance level-dependent things (spells per level, uses of Smite Evil, etc.)

Seeing as you're going to 30, Mythic levels and multiclassing seem to be the better options.

From experience, this is the best thing to do.

Mythic Tiers, while fun, are just freakishly OP, even compared to the lv20 nonsense; Epic Level options from the ELH are even WORSE than Mythic options, and that book should probably be burned.

Base Classes end at lv20; Prestige Classes end at lv10; Character Levels, however, are infinite, so it's best to just have the characters multiclass and enter into Prestige Classes.

One of the things the PRD mentions in regards to leveling beyond 20 is if you continue to raise your Caster Level, you should gain 1 more Spell Slot than what your base Spellcasting Class allows for (i.e. 5th Level slots for 4th-level casters, 7th for 6th, and 10th for 9th). Characters never gain SPELLS for these levels, but they are used as a means to apply Metamagics to 8th and 9th level spells, cast extra spells by using the higher slots, etc. Whether you institute this, however, is entirely up to you (I typically don't).

Also bear in mind 2 important things:

1) You are going to be attacking large groups of things - VERY large, like Battalions & greater, and I suggest looking up the rules for Troops in the PFSRD. This will mitigate the "rocket-tag" aspects of high-level play, since causing hundreds of damage vs a single target doesn't help when you're knee-deep in the midst of a full-scale battle; even Full-Casters will have a hard time being insanely broken at the scale of combat that you'll be dealing with.

1a) Basically, the game's combat comes full-circle; at the beginning of your career, around lv1-3, it's very, very easy to one-shot characters due to the low amounts of HP available. From around lv4-16, you and your enemies can and will suck up surprisingly-high amounts of damage fairly easily. But once you pass lv17, things go back to the way they were in the early levels, and both PCs and enemies can be one-shot'ed fairly easily if they're not careful. Whether or not this is bad is entirely up to your tastes - there's a degree of odd logic that like-leveled characters can kill one another with just one hit, honestly.

2) If you use standard Experience gains, character advancement will slow to a glacial pace at around lv25 or so, due to having to gain literally hundreds of millions to BILLIONS of XP in order to advance ever farther towards lv30. This isn't BAD if you're planning on the campaign lasting for a very, very long time, though.

Eldritch Scion Magus is... okay. It's not a strong choice for entering into Dragon Disciple, though.

Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 1 is a very good choice, especially Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer.

Bloodrager 5 is also good.

Then again, Bloodrager lets you effectively play a Dragon Disciple from level 1 onward, without the constraints of only having the Dragon bloodline.