Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere
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And to add my to cents on the matter or Iron Fist...
1. Part of Danny's schtick is the fact that he is an outsider in Asian environment. Making him Asian would kinda s%#$ all over this. He could however be white, black or even Latino. Just not Asian.
2. Finn Jones. Okay, Marvel has not failed in casting in these series so far, so there must be something that worked. It's just not the guy I would have thought for the role.
Also, to quote Ashley V. Robinson: I have seen Iron Fist naked. This is weird.
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Whitewashing in HollywoodI'm sorry, but YOU CAN'T WHITEWASH DANNY RAND. HE'S BEEN WHITE SINCE HIS FIRST G+$%~!N APPEARANCE.
The Social Justice Warriors need to back the hell off when they start saying that it's racist to make a white character white. It's utterly g*#@&#n ridiculous.
Being white is actually a key component of the character. There's the whole fish out of water thing in K'un-L'un....but there's also the dynamic with Power Man / Luke Cage, where they become inseparable best friends dispute the disparity of their backgrounds.
Ah, but "Asian" isn't a homogeneous ethnic group. If K'un-L'un is Tibetian-ish, Danny could have Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indonesian, or any other Asian ancestry and still be considered an outsider. If he also had partial Caucasian ancestry, it would still work. Especially in a city like New York, where every non-Asian unconsciously lumps all Asians into the same group, and certainly wouldn't stop to think about the major cultural differences.
Yes, a Danny Rand with some/full Asian heritage would run into flack for "Marvel's First Asian hero onscreen is a martial artist", but based on Daredevil and Jessica Jones, I have faith the Marvel Netflix division could do a decent job (or better) depicting these nuances and depths that make Danny an outsider in the East and West. Certainly better than the film division, at least.
I think all anyone really wants is Marvel to make an honest attempt at inclusiveness and diversity in their shows and films. When you are a minority in a society, seeing someone on a show or movie that looks like you/is like you--and isn't a bad guy--is really amazing.
Or just plain incompetent.
Moreover, Danny Rand is indeed an ugly callback to a time period where asian martial arts masters were good, but the handsome romantic lead(usually a white guy) was better. Granted, what has actually been done with the character himself- especially in his newest incarnation as a living weapon- is most decidedly NOT that, the character himself comes out of that time period and mindset. Luke Cage is a blacksploitation character himself, also despite what has been done with the character(ignoring the gritty late 90's thugged out reboot).
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Moreover, Danny Rand is indeed an ugly callback to a time period where asian martial arts masters were good, but the handsome romantic lead(usually a white guy) was better....
How does this not apply to ALL heroic fiction though? regardless of race or sex or appearance... Whoever gets the spotlight shone on them as the protagonist... is going to be the person to 'save the day'.
That's what heroes are... that's what they do. Whether it's books, movies, or even RPGs.
I've complained before about the these characters that can start out as level one off the far with a BAB of 0 or 1... and in 6 months of 'game time' they are challenging liches and dragons.
I've seen the movies where the handsome white guy comes out of nowhere and ends up being greater then the masters after a training montage... I've seen handsome Asian guys come out of nowhere and with just a little training school the mega-evil bad guys...
heck, I've seen Muppet Turtles come out of nowhere, learn some 3rd hand ninjitsu and drop ninja masters...
The underdog beating people they shouldn't is just the basis for classic literature going back at least as far as the greek myths where mortals stand up to gods and prevail.
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I've seen the movies where the handsome white guy comes out of nowhere and ends up being greater then the masters after a training montage... I've seen handsome Asian guys come out of nowhere and with just a little training school the mega-evil bad guys...
What's different between those two examples is that one is a person from their own culture going through a training montage and becoming really good at something from their own culture (which is often movie shorthand anyway, and represents months, or even sometimes years, of training, not just the five minutes we see on-screen), while the other is a foreigner showing up and being magically better at somebody else's culture, reminding them that they are cute, but inferior, and a master race's guidance is needed to show them how to unlock the highest levels of *their own cultures skills.*
You've possibly seen how it irked some internetizens that a black guy was cast to play Heimdall in the Thor movies, and he wasn't even 'better' than Thor or Odin, or the tempest-in-a-teapot over Michael B. Jordan being cast as Johnny Storm. Imagine an Arthurian set movie in which a black kid shows up at Camelot who knows nothing of jousting, swordplay, horseback riding, etc. and ends up in a short time better at all of these knightly skills than the older white dudes who've been doing it all their lives and raised to the saddle. (Sort of 'American Ninja/Kickboxer/Ronin/whatev, but with someone coming in and 'appropriating' a white historical role.) An Indian kid showing up in Vikings and out-Viking-ing the Vikings would likely also go over like a lead balloon.
As for Danny Rand, a Korean or Indian or Filipino kid would be just as out of touch in K'un Lun as a blonde blue-eyed kid, so that argument doesn't really hold any water for me, it seems more like a rationalization. But I'm fine with sticking to the source material, in this case, since the Heroes for Hire / Daughters of the Dragon crew is already one of the most diverse groups of characters around. (Danny - white guy, Luke - black guy, Misty - black girl, Colleen - half-Asian girl, and, added much later, Jessica - white girl.)
Marvel (and DC) could use a few Asian heroes, and Iron Fist was as good a choice as any (certainly as suitable to be Asian as Nick Fury was suitable to be black, and probably much more so than Heimdall, 'Heimdallr is attested as possessing foreknowledge, keen eyesight and hearing, and is described as "the whitest of the gods"). :)
I'm okay with them kicking the diversity can down the road, and find a role for an Asian character who isn't necessarily a martial artist (I'd rather see Iron Fist as Asian, than see Shang-Chi, at all, for instance), or otherwise have attributes based on Asian stereotypes.
Perhaps someday we'll have a Runaways movie, and get to see Nico Minoru/Sister Grimm, or an Avengers Academy flick, and see Jennifer Takada/Hazmat, or a New Mutants film from Fox that includes Xian Coy Manh/Karma. We've already seen Amadeus Cho's mom, which suggests that he could show up someday in the MCU.
Marvel does have a distinct disadvantage over DC in the diversity angle because so many of their diverse characters are in the X-teams, and therefore off-limits to the MCU. Storm, Sunfire, Jubilee, Thunderbird, Forge, Psylocke, Bishop, Dani Moonstar, Karma, Monet, Silver Samurai, Dust, Sunspot, etc. all off-limits. I'm sure there are a few tied into the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man franchises, like the new Korean 'spider-woman,' Silk or long-forgotten Wyatt Wingfoot.
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What's different between those two examples is that one is a person from their own culture going through a training montage and becoming really good at something from their own culture (which is often movie shorthand anyway, and represents months, or even sometimes years, of training, not just the five minutes we see on-screen), while the other is a foreigner showing up and being magically better at somebody else's culture, reminding them that they are cute, but inferior, and a master race's guidance is needed to show them how to unlock the highest levels of *their own cultures skills.*
Except this in itself is racism in the form of stereotyping.
In reality, it is EQUALLY unrealistic (and often bad writing) for both of the above. Just because something is "their culture" does not mean that it's something they are good at because it's "in the blood".
Both are someone being "magically better at something than someone who's trained for years" just because they're the main character.
Implying it makes more sense for an Asian to quickly pick up martial arts because it's "his cultural heritage" is that subtle sort of "positive racism" that needs to kindly go away as well as the more negative stereotypes.
Imagine an Arthurian set movie in which a black kid shows up at Camelot who knows nothing of jousting, swordplay, horseback riding, etc. and ends up in a short time better at all of these knightly skills than the older white dudes who've been doing it all their lives and raised to the saddle. (Sort of 'American Ninja/Kickboxer/Ronin/whatev, but with someone coming in and 'appropriating' a white historical role.)
I've seen the movies where the handsome white guy comes out of nowhere and ends up being greater then the masters after a training montage... I've seen handsome Asian guys come out of nowhere and with just a little training school the mega-evil bad guys...What's different between those two examples is that one is a person from their own culture going through a training montage and becoming really good at something from their own culture (which is often movie shorthand anyway, and represents months, or even sometimes years, of training, not just the five minutes we see on-screen), while the other is a foreigner showing up and being magically better at somebody else's culture, reminding them that they are cute, but inferior, and a master race's guidance is needed to show them how to unlock the highest levels of *their own cultures skills.*
You've possibly seen how it irked some internetizens that a black guy was cast to play Heimdall in the Thor movies, and he wasn't even 'better' than Thor or Odin, or the tempest-in-a-teapot over Michael B. Jordan being cast as Johnny Storm. Imagine an Arthurian set movie in which a black kid shows up at Camelot who knows nothing of jousting, swordplay, horseback riding, etc. and ends up in a short time better at all of these knightly skills than the older white dudes who've been doing it all their lives and raised to the saddle. (Sort of 'American Ninja/Kickboxer/Ronin/whatev, but with someone coming in and 'appropriating' a white historical role.) An Indian kid showing up in Vikings and out-Viking-ing the Vikings would likely also go over like a lead balloon.
As for Danny Rand, a Korean or Indian or Filipino kid would be just as out of touch in K'un Lun as a blonde blue-eyed kid, so that argument doesn't really hold any water for me, it seems more like a rationalization. But I'm fine with sticking to the source material, in this case, since the Heroes for Hire / Daughters of the Dragon crew is already one of the most diverse groups...
This is the key part for me. Stick with the source material. Johnny Storm is a center stage character who has always been white. Iron Fist has also always been white.
It is not a 'race' thing that people complain about... it is a 'stick with the source material' thing. Daniel Craig is an excellent example. The idea of a 'Blonde Bond' broke the internet too. I know a few people who can't stand him to this day because he doesn't 'look like Bond'.
Some of us have been Comic Books fans for 30-40 years... and there was a time where there were NO comic movies. Then we eneded up with some REALLY crappy ones that did not stick with the source material (catwoman, Steel, Elektra)
Comic book fans have waited decades to see their favorite character in live action on the screen. Not to see a changed/altered/corrected version of Iron Fist or Dr. Strange.... they want to see IRON FIST.
Proclaiming that there will be a show of your favorite character and then changing ANYTHING about that character gets people up in arms. I was very annoyed by Jordan cast for Storm... but I didn't care about Idris as Heimdall....
I honestly don't care about Heimdell. He's such a 3rd tier character who doesn't do anything, they can do whatever they want with him. And he did pretty awesome in the role. Jordan did not. Though he was only the first strike against THAT movie >.<
These debates remind me of that Old Japanese Spider-man show. He wore a spider-man costume... But he was Japanese, not a photographer, not even peter parker, infected by aliens with powers, and had a giant robot...
But he was TOTALLY a live action spider-man... and anyone who disagrees is racist!
Source Material trumps all. The closer they can get to bringing our heroes to leap off the page... the happier people are.
Once again I posted two responses to specific things in this thread and then remembered where I was and what crowd I was responding to and deleted them.
Sometimes it's like trying to talk empathy with a sociopath. I mean they have an idea of what genuine emotions and empathy is supposed to look like but ACTUALLY HAVING empathy? Not so much.
I'm sure there are a few tied into the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man franchises, like the new Korean 'spider-woman,' Silk or long-forgotten Wyatt Wingfoot.
Silk is a possibility, although we'll almost certainly get Jessica before Cindy. Wyatt is out unless/until the MCU gets the FF rights back. I think chances are good we'll see Kamala Khan in some capacity once the Captain Marvel movie comes out. I'd really like Monica Rambeau (and Nextwave, if you can find a good character to replace Boom Boom)
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This is the key part for me. Stick with the source material. Johnny Storm is a center stage character who has always been white. Iron Fist has also always been white.
It is not a 'race' thing that people complain about... it is a 'stick with the source material' thing. Daniel Craig is an excellent example. The idea of a 'Blonde Bond' broke the internet too. I know a few people who can't stand him to this day because he doesn't 'look like Bond'.
Some of us have been Comic Books fans for 30-40 years... and there was a time where there were NO comic movies. Then we eneded up with some REALLY crappy ones that did not stick with the source material (catwoman, Steel, Elektra)
Comic book fans have waited decades to see their favorite character in live action on the screen. Not to see a changed/altered/corrected version of Iron Fist or Dr. Strange.... they want to see IRON FIST.
And yet, sometimes the source material is just bad. Or out of date. Or could use the slightest touch-up to *improve* the story.
If Marvel stuck to their guns on the source material, Iron Man would be seventy-ish, and the movie Iron Man origin story would have been set in Vietnam (or was it Korea? I don't even remember...). *I* think the Iron Man story was *improved* by moving past the old source material and updating it to Afghanistan.
It's also entirely possible that Thor was improved by ignoring the source material about Dr. Donald Blake and Thor reverting to a gimpy mortal doctor after 60 seconds if he loses contact with Mjolnir. (And possibly not. I was not a huge fan of the Thor movies, despite Thor being my favorite of Thor, Cap and Iron Man.)
And then there's Captain America, which also played fast and loose with the source material, making the Red Skull a fellow super-soldier experiment of Erskine's, and completely writing out the entire Invaders era of stories (which I would have loved to see!).
Hawkeye's story has changed ridiculously from former carnival archer and petty crook to first recruit for 'Cap's Kooky quartet,' and his personality even more so, from quippy jokester rivaling Spider-Man, to boring and overly serious (IMO) and not at all competing with uncharacteristically quippy MCU Tony Stark (who doesn't act much like the comic book version did, although, post-movies, the comic book Tony Stark is now being written to be more like Robert Downey Jr).
Black Widow? Not a founding Avenger. She showed up *eleven years later* as the third female Avenger. There's no great respect for the source material there! And yet, she's awesome.
Scarlet Witch? We'll ignore the stuff they *can't* use (her being Magneto's mutant daughter), she's still been radically changed, with her bad luck bolts replaced by Jean Grey-lite telekinetic and mind-affecting powers. (And, along with replacing Hank and Janet as founding Avengers, *these* particular bits of 'ignoring the source material' piss me off! Wanda is Jean Grey? Boring!) :)
Iron Fist being another race, or a woman, for that matter, makes *far* less difference to the story than utterly excising Cap's WW2 adventures with Namor, the original Human Torch, Lady Spitfire, Union Jack, etc., or Tony Stark being a snark-machine and pop-culture-spewer on par with Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
The source material issue also is muddled with by the dozens of writers who have had their hands on these characters. There is hardly any one 'canon' for these characters, at this point, as you can find individual arcs in which Tony is a flat-out villain, or Spider-Man is pretty dark and humorless (not to mention various de-agings, AU replacements to dodge accountability for Armor Wars misdeeds, clone sagas or scenarios where somebody else's brain is in their body...).
The Daniel Craig/James Bond example is interesting because Daniel Craig's Bond is one of the ones that *acts* like the Ian Fleming character from the novels. Other 'more accurate' *appearing* Bond's, like Roger Moore or Pierce Brosnan have been grossly out of character. Hair color, IMO, matters about a tenth of a percent as much as characterization, when it comes to the source material and 'getting it right.'
TLDR; I think it matters more that adaptations of comics or novels get the character and the tone 'right' and do justice to the story, making it interesting and relevant and entertaining to a modern day audience, than get bent out of shape over hair color or skin tone or accent or exactly when or where something happened 'in the book.'
I'm sure there are a few tied into the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man franchises, like the new Korean 'spider-woman,' Silk or long-forgotten Wyatt Wingfoot.Silk is a possibility, although we'll almost certainly get Jessica before Cindy. Wyatt is out unless/until the MCU gets the FF rights back. I think chances are good we'll see Kamala Khan in some capacity once the Captain Marvel movie comes out. I'd really like Monica Rambeau (and Nextwave, if you can find a good character to replace Boom Boom)
Ooh, I'd love to see a Nextwave movie. They could definitely take advantage of the success of Deadpool to push an absurd and over the top Nextwave story! Tabitha could be replaced with someone with similar powers that is available to them, like Jolt or Hazmat, or some new character (a 'splosion-generating Inhuman).
A chance to see Monica Rambeau, Machine Man and Elsa Bloodstone on the big screen? Heck yeah!
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Moreover, Danny Rand is indeed an ugly callback to a time period where asian martial arts masters were good, but the handsome romantic lead(usually a white guy) was better....How does this not apply to ALL heroic fiction though? regardless of race or sex or appearance... Whoever gets the spotlight shone on them as the protagonist... is going to be the person to 'save the day'.
That's what heroes are... that's what they do. Whether it's books, movies, or even RPGs.
I've complained before about the these characters that can start out as level one off the far with a BAB of 0 or 1... and in 6 months of 'game time' they are challenging liches and dragons.
I've seen the movies where the handsome white guy comes out of nowhere and ends up being greater then the masters after a training montage... I've seen handsome Asian guys come out of nowhere and with just a little training school the mega-evil bad guys...
heck, I've seen Muppet Turtles come out of nowhere, learn some 3rd hand ninjitsu and drop ninja masters...
The underdog beating people they shouldn't is just the basis for classic literature going back at least as far as the greek myths where mortals stand up to gods and prevail.
because both iron fist and luke cage are 70s marvel characters. It was what was popular during the time period in just about every action movie and tv series. You are conflating a known trope popular in fantasy with one of the pop culture of the time period the characters were created.
This is the key part for me. Stick with the source material. Johnny Storm is a center stage character who has always been white. Iron Fist has also always been white.
It is not a 'race' thing that people complain about... it is a 'stick with the source material' thing. Daniel Craig is an excellent example. The idea of a 'Blonde Bond' broke the internet too. I know a few people who can't stand him to this day because he doesn't 'look like Bond'.
Some of us have been Comic Books fans for 30-40 years... and there was a time where there were NO comic movies. Then we eneded up with some REALLY crappy ones that did not stick with the source material (catwoman, Steel, Elektra)
Comic book fans have waited decades to see their favorite character in live action on the screen. Not to see a changed/altered/corrected version of Iron Fist or Dr. Strange.... they want to see IRON FIST.
And yet, sometimes the source material is just bad. Or out of date. Or could use the slightest touch-up to *improve* the story.
If Marvel stuck to their guns on the source material, Iron Man would be seventy-ish, and the movie Iron Man origin story would have been set in Vietnam (or was it Korea? I don't even remember...). *I* think the Iron Man story was *improved* by moving past the old source material and updating it to Afghanistan.
It's also entirely possible that Thor was improved by ignoring the source material about Dr. Donald Blake and Thor reverting to a gimpy mortal doctor after 60 seconds if he loses contact with Mjolnir. (And possibly not. I was not a huge fan of the Thor movies, despite Thor being my favorite of Thor, Cap and Iron Man.)
And then there's Captain America, which also played fast and loose with the source material, making the Red Skull a fellow super-soldier experiment of Erskine's, and completely writing out the entire Invaders era of stories (which I would have loved to see!).
Hawkeye's story has changed ridiculously from former carnival archer and...
also, this.
But replace Tabitha? NEVER! I LOVE HER!
Once again I posted two responses to specific things in this thread and then remembered where I was and what crowd I was responding to and deleted them.
Sometimes it's like trying to talk empathy with a sociopath. I mean they have an idea of what genuine emotions and empathy is supposed to look like but ACTUALLY HAVING empathy? Not so much.
some people are ignorant. Others don't believe there's a problem. Still others don't want anything to change. Even more are stuck within their own paradigm.
Life is like that more often than not.
What's different between those two examples is that one is a person from their own culture going through a training montage and becoming really good at something from their own culture (which is often movie shorthand anyway, and represents months, or even sometimes years, of training, not just the five minutes we see on-screen), while the other is a foreigner showing up and being magically better at somebody else's culture, reminding them that they are cute, but inferior, and a master race's guidance is needed to show them how to unlock the highest levels of *their own cultures skills.*
Except this in itself is racism in the form of stereotyping.
In reality, it is EQUALLY unrealistic (and often bad writing) for both of the above. Just because something is "their culture" does not mean that it's something they are good at because it's "in the blood".
Both are someone being "magically better at something than someone who's trained for years" just because they're the main character.
Implying it makes more sense for an Asian to quickly pick up martial arts because it's "his cultural heritage" is that subtle sort of "positive racism" that needs to kindly go away as well as the more negative stereotypes.
Imagine an Arthurian set movie in which a black kid shows up at Camelot who knows nothing of jousting, swordplay, horseback riding, etc. and ends up in a short time better at all of these knightly skills than the older white dudes who've been doing it all their lives and raised to the saddle. (Sort of 'American Ninja/Kickboxer/Ronin/whatev, but with someone coming in and 'appropriating' a white historical role.)
your link doesn't go anywhere....
your link doesn't go anywhere....
What's different between those two examples is that one is a person from their own culture going through a training montage and becoming really good at something from their own culture (which is often movie shorthand anyway, and represents months, or even sometimes years, of training, not just the five minutes we see on-screen), while the other is a foreigner showing up and being magically better at somebody else's culture, reminding them that they are cute, but inferior, and a master race's guidance is needed to show them how to unlock the highest levels of *their own cultures skills.*
Except this in itself is racism in the form of stereotyping.
In reality, it is EQUALLY unrealistic (and often bad writing) for both of the above. Just because something is "their culture" does not mean that it's something they are good at because it's "in the blood".
Both are someone being "magically better at something than someone who's trained for years" just because they're the main character.
Implying it makes more sense for an Asian to quickly pick up martial arts because it's "his cultural heritage" is that subtle sort of "positive racism" that needs to kindly go away as well as the more negative stereotypes.
Imagine an Arthurian set movie in which a black kid shows up at Camelot who knows nothing of jousting, swordplay, horseback riding, etc. and ends up in a short time better at all of these knightly skills than the older white dudes who've been doing it all their lives and raised to the saddle. (Sort of 'American Ninja/Kickboxer/Ronin/whatev, but with someone coming in and 'appropriating' a white historical role.)
It does for me.
It was just a silly joke about that Martin Lawrence movie "Black Knight" anyway.
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Oh me, Oh my. Now if there was only a thread where people could discuss the upcoming series Iron Fist and stop hijacking the Daredevil thread.
Oh, look. Here it is.
This is the key part for me. Stick with the source material. Johnny Storm is a center stage character who has always been white. Iron Fist has also always been white.
Do you get mad when black characters are given to white actors?
...I've seen the movies where the handsome white guy comes out of nowhere and ends up being greater then the masters after a training montage... I've seen handsome Asian guys come out of nowhere and with just a little training school the mega-evil bad guys...What's different between those two examples is that one is a person from their own culture going through a training montage and becoming really good at something from their own culture (which is often movie shorthand anyway, and represents months, or even sometimes years, of training, not just the five minutes we see on-screen), while the other is a foreigner showing up and being magically better at somebody else's culture, reminding them that they are cute, but inferior, and a master race's guidance is needed to show them how to unlock the highest levels of *their own cultures skills.*
You've possibly seen how it irked some internetizens that a black guy was cast to play Heimdall in the Thor movies, and he wasn't even 'better' than Thor or Odin, or the tempest-in-a-teapot over Michael B. Jordan being cast as Johnny Storm. Imagine an Arthurian set movie in which a black kid shows up at Camelot who knows nothing of jousting, swordplay, horseback riding, etc. and ends up in a short time better at all of these knightly skills than the older white dudes who've been doing it all their lives and raised to the saddle. (Sort of 'American Ninja/Kickboxer/Ronin/whatev, but with someone coming in and 'appropriating' a white historical role.) An Indian kid showing up in Vikings and out-Viking-ing the Vikings would likely also go over like a lead balloon.
As for Danny Rand, a Korean or Indian or Filipino kid would be just as out of touch in K'un Lun as a blonde blue-eyed kid, so that argument doesn't really hold any water for me, it seems more like a rationalization. But I'm fine with sticking to the source material, in this case, since the Heroes for Hire / Daughters of the Dragon crew is already
sticking faithfully to the source material is what makes Hollywood leery about comic book movies. Not many things translate well to screen without treatment and updating.
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Race lifts is one of the things that just shouldn't be done. Tokenism annoys me. It's racism.
"Hey Jack, we need a black man, an asian man, a mixed-race lesbian and a gay white man in this show"
"But Jim, this is a show about four white men coming back from WW2 and fighting for black rights because they respect black people now that they've fought with them".
"Ok, but make one of the white men black, another asian, another a woman, who is also a mixed raced lesbian, and make the third guy gay"
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If the show is about fighting for black rights, but there aren't any black people in the show, there's something wrong.
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This is the key part for me. Stick with the source material. Johnny Storm is a center stage character who has always been white. Iron Fist has also always been white.Do you get mad when black characters are given to white actors?
Sure, when it actually happens. And not 'They used Hal Jordan instead of John Stewart despite being the most iconic version and the founder of the modern incarnation of Green Lantern...'
I like things as Iconic as possible. If a character is white, he should be white. If a character is black, he should be black.
If a character has zero previous visual incarnations... then the best actor gets the job.
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One thing I wish they would do is stop making "girl" versions of established heroes. Its lame when women finally get some characters going an they are just female versions of males. Its worse because its not super woman or batwoman its super girl an bat girl. Females dont get to be grown ups and worse are copies of the dudes. Stop doing that.
Im not sure if it happens to African, Asian, Natives, gays, etc as well but I dont like it any better than the sexism of "girl" versions of heroes. Give them their own cool identity and original powers/stories etc. That is all thanks for listening.
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One thing I wish they would do is stop making "girl" versions of established heroes. Its lame when women finally get some characters going an they are just female versions of males. Its worse because its not super woman or batwoman its super girl an bat girl. Females dont get to be grown ups and worse are copies of the dudes. Stop doing that.
Im not sure if it happens to African, Asian, Natives, gays, etc as well but I dont like it any better than the sexism of "girl" versions of heroes. Give them their own cool identity and original powers/stories etc. That is all thanks for listening.
'She' characters are usually a big pet peeve for me, whether it's Supergirl or Batwoman or Spider-Woman or She-Hulk, or any of the more obscure ones (like Sharon Ventura, the 'She-Thing').
But I'm enough of a hypocrite that I'd laugh and laugh at a male spin-off character of Black Canary or Storm or whatever. (Wiccan, as a male spin-off of the Scarlet Witch, or Steve Trevor joining the JLA as a 'Wonder Woman NPC hit the big time,' or Hank Pym taking on the role of the Wasp, in honor of Jan, for a time, amuse me, for instance, since it's usually the other way around, with ladies serving as legacies of dudes.)
That said, *some* 'she' legacies I end up loving, despite that. I like the She-Hulk a ton, and much more than her more famous cousin. X-23, Miss Martian and Ravager, spin-offs of Wolverine, Martian Manhunter and Deathstroke, respectively, turned out to have some really great stories, and won me over despite my bias.
Ethnic variations at least *usually* manage to avoid having a reference to their race/culture in their name, but not always. Bill Foster, the 'Black Goliath,' was, in fact, a black man taking on the role of Goliath (originally Hank Pym). Ugh. At least black people taking on the role of Captain America or Green Lantern or Hispanic dudes taking on Blue Beetle or Spider-Man roles haven't been saddled with 'Captain Black America!' or 'Brown Beetle!' names. :)
And yeah, rather than have an Indian Spider-Man or a black Captain America, I'm all for the completely original characters who happen to be women (like Black Canary or the Scarlet Witch) or happen to be black (like Monica Rambeau or Vixen) and *aren't* spun-off from a pre-existing white dude.
Race lifts is one of the things that just shouldn't be done. Tokenism annoys me. It's racism.
"Hey Jack, we need a black man, an asian man, a mixed-race lesbian and a gay white man in this show"
"But Jim, this is a show about four white men coming back from WW2 and fighting for black rights because they respect black people now that they've fought with them".
"Ok, but make one of the white men black, another asian, another a woman, who is also a mixed raced lesbian, and make the third guy gay"
it annoys me too. Deeply
But it enrages me that without it, things would look rather monochromatic/gender/sexuality.|
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I don't care as long as people follow logic and don't do things for the sake of tokenism. If it is a well thought out character that isn't supposed to be white specifically, make him whatever you want. As long as they hire a good actor I don't care. But if it is a character who's been white for 60 years, I want a white guy portraying him.
Also if they made John Stewart white or asian I'd also flip my s**t. Stewart is black. So he should be black. End of story.
I don't care as long as people follow logic and don't do things for the sake of tokenism. If it is a well thought out character that isn't supposed to be white specifically, make him whatever you want. As long as they hire a good actor I don't care. But if it is a character who's been white for 60 years, I want a white guy portraying him.
Also if they made John Stewart white or asian I'd also flip my s**t. Stewart is black. So he should be black. End of story.
that's a tautology, though, as just about every character has been portrayed as white for the past 60 years.
Is it a tautology? I hope I'm not misusing that word.
Again, I think it's more one of a few factors.
1.) Is race integral to the character? If yes, no change-o pls. If no, then a change MIGHT be warranted (if there's a good actor you want to use, for example).
2.) Does a change of race make a large change to the look of an iconic character?
That second is probably the bigger one.
Making Heimdall black changes little, except make him look cooler (the comics version is a doofy looking m~*@%%*!&#!+).
Ditto Joe West and Iris, as I already said.
But the more "mainstream" you get, these changes become more troublesome because you start having a hard time recognizing the character.
Making Batman black would change the entire brand, basically, which i a HUGE shift for a company to make. It makes no financial sense, and doesn't usually impact the final quality all at...so why do it?
Then as Hama says, it works the other way. Making John Stewart or Black Panther or Luke Cage white or any other race would just be...why?
Hispanic or Latino is a good middle ground though, at least aesthetically. DC could probably get away with a Hispanic Batman, for instance. Of course that gets into "But not too <Race>" implications, and nobody wants S&&@storm of the Century brewed up by that, so again it is avoided.
Basically changing the race of a major character is a huge gamble for any company, which is why it isn't done.
AND THEN you tack on that, let's face it, nerds hate change. When it's change just for the sake of change? Hoo boy. I can feel my panties twisting already.
Overall it's just best to introduce more varied heroes, or new VERSIONS of heroes rather than changing an existing character.
We have a black Spiderman: Miles Morales. No need to make Peter Parker black. As well as a few other examples I could list.
And you know, comics really aren't as monochromatic as things seem, at least in my head as a casual reader at best. I know there are a lot of black heroes...they just have so little exposure, comparatively. You know what, scratch what I said. Screw making new ones, just capitalize on the ones you HAVE.
Gimme a new Static Shock show and I'll be happy.
TL;DR: I ramble on forever.
Again, I think it's more one of a few factors.
1.) Is race integral to the character? If yes, no change-o pls. If no, then a change MIGHT be warranted (if there's a good actor you want to use, for example).
2.) Does a change of race make a large change to the look of an iconic character?
That second is probably the bigger one.
Making Heimdall black changes little, except make him look cooler (the comics version is a doofy looking m!~~*$!~+~*+).
Ditto Joe West and Iris, as I already said.
But the more "mainstream" you get, these changes become more troublesome because you start having a hard time recognizing the character.
Making Batman black would change the entire brand, basically, which i a HUGE shift for a company to make. It makes no financial sense, and doesn't usually impact the final quality all at...so why do it?
Then as Hama says, it works the other way. Making John Stewart or Black Panther or Luke Cage white or any other race would just be...why?
Hispanic or Latino is a good middle ground though, at least aesthetically. DC could probably get away with a Hispanic Batman, for instance. Of course that gets into "But not too <Race>" implications, and nobody wants S$*%storm of the Century brewed up by that, so again it is avoided.
Basically changing the race of a major character is a huge gamble for any company, which is why it isn't done.
AND THEN you tack on that, let's face it, nerds hate change. When it's change just for the sake of change? Hoo boy. I can feel my panties twisting already.
Overall it's just best to introduce more varied heroes, or new VERSIONS of heroes rather than changing an existing character.
We have a black Spiderman: Miles Morales. No need to make Peter Parker black. As well as a few other examples I could list.
And you know, comics really aren't as monochromatic as things seem, at least in my head as a casual reader at best. I know there are a lot of black heroes...they just have so little exposure, comparatively. You know what, scratch...
we already had a black batman in the 90s. He was either permanently injured or had something happen to him. I liked batwing too, I hoped to see more out of that comic.
Lots of black heroes? Not really. Enough to avoid badmouthing, perhaps. Although there does seem to be an semi-enthusiatic attempt to introduce them into the mainstream on marvel's part. DC is continuing to cross fingers in between major introductions, not realizing they need to meld characters into the universe, not give them one of their own books to cancel when they stop selling(although I remain a dedicated blood syndicate fan).
Depends on what you consider "lots", I guess. There are quite a few, though you're right that COMPARATIVELY the few dozen or so there are is kind of a drop in the bucket, especially given (like I said) that they're usually either minor characters or simply aren't promoted as heavily. Or turn villainous later.
In related news, we're having this discussion just in time for the s!#%fit being thrown over Idris Elba playing Roland in the new Dark Tower film. Yay!
Seriously though for some reason I thought he was black in the book anyway. But it's been forever since I read them.
This will mark I think the first time I've seen this sort of reaction to a BOOK casting. Generally nobody gives a crap because it's not a visual medium to begin with. Unless there's a VERY clear description of the character (which is pretty rare, even for the main character) who's gonna know?
Is that one of James Patterson's series'?
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In related news, we're having this discussion just in time for the s!!~fit being thrown over Idris Elba playing Roland in the new Dark Tower film. Yay!
Seriously though for some reason I thought he was black in the book anyway. But it's been forever since I read them.
This will mark I think the first time I've seen this sort of reaction to a BOOK casting. Generally nobody gives a crap because it's not a visual medium to begin with. Unless there's a VERY clear description of the character (which is pretty rare, even for the main character) who's gonna know?
In fairness, in the books, Roland gets a lot of s+~@ from the main black character for being a 'honky'. Which makes sense given the era she's from, for the record.
Making him black thus sorta changes one of the book's key interpersonal dynamics.
Now, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, given that those books have more subplots than you can shake a stick at, and removing one may thus make for a better movie adaptation...but there are legitimate reasons other than racism to not like that choice.
I always thought Roland looked like a young Clint Eastwood.
same here.
Waitaminute- Idris Elba got Tom Cruise's role and vice versa?
I always thought Roland looked like a young Clint Eastwood.
As did I, but the only real issue with making Roland black is the interaction with Detta Walker..and considering she is completely around the bend and delusional at times, you could just replace him with a white actor when looking at him from her point of view.
This will mark I think the first time I've seen this sort of reaction to a BOOK casting. Generally nobody gives a crap because it's not a visual medium to begin with. Unless there's a VERY clear description of the character (which is pretty rare, even for the main character) who's gonna know?
There were similar complaints about the casting of the first Hunger Games movie for a character that was explicitly a black girl in the book because the actor wasn't, to paraphrase, an innocent-looking blonde girl.
In fairness, in the books, Roland gets a lot of s$@+ from the main black character for being a 'honky'. Which makes sense given the era she's from, for the record.
Making him black thus sorta changes one of the book's key interpersonal dynamics.
Now, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, given that those books have more subplots than you can shake a stick at, and removing one may thus make for a better movie adaptation...but there are legitimate reasons other than racism to not like that choice.
I might be angry about the casting given the Roland/Detta relationship, but to be honest: there is no way in hell we'd actually get a 100% book accurate Detta. Not on film. An online series (which would be my preference for a book series like this), yes, but not a movie. That's not the only change I expect to be made. I'd be shocked as all hell if we get Jake's full story in the movie.
With that being the case, I say: bring on Idris Elba!