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Liberty's Edge

Evan Tarlton wrote:

I might be angry about the casting given the Roland/Detta relationship, but to be honest: there is no way in hell we'd actually get a 100% book accurate Detta. Not on film. An online series (which would be my preference for a book series like this), yes, but not a movie. That's not the only change I expect to be made. I'd be shocked as all hell if we get Jake's full story in the movie.

With that being the case, I say: bring on Idris Elba!

Yeah, that's my attitude. I was just noting that there were non-racist reasons to object to that one.

Liberty's Edge

Season 2 is on Netflix now. Can't wait to binge this weekend.

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2 episodes in, and I don't think the Punisher has run his hand over his bald head even once!


Watched through episode 5 and loving it.

Not sure WTF is up with some critics' reviews of this season. Time's reviewer in particular seems to have a hornet's nest up his ass about the show.


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Finished season 2. I enjoyed it for what it was. The action was better this year, most all of the cast performed great and it had a lot of great visuals. All in all, if you're a comic tv show/movie fan, it's worth the time to watch it.

I was also deeply disappointed by large aspects of the show.

Spoiler:

Charlie Cox is my least favorite actor on the show and he's the lead. Maybe it's his attempts to portray a blind man, but he just feels stiff and wooden all the time. Then you combine it with my next complaint and it's compounded.

Everyone hates Daredevil. This is annoying, because we're constantly being told how he doesn't live up to his obligations, which he doesn't. He's constantly berated, rightly, by everyone. He doesn't live up to his own expectations either. Basically, everyone hates Daredevil. This can be a good story element, but over the course of 13 hour long episodes, it gets boring and tired. Eventually I start to wonder why we bother following this guy with a camera if he's just a disappointment to everyone.

There's no villain. The Punisher is essentially the foil to Daredevil for the season, but we hate him, then we like him, then we hate him, then we like him. It can be really powerful to evoke a sense of uncertainty and doubt about the true nature of something, but the show doesn't pull if off well. It doesn't feel like the director is asking us questions about how we feel about the Punisher, instead it feels like the director/writers can't decide how they feel.

Season 1 had Fisk, who we knew was the villain, but at times we felt sympathetic towards, but it was never in doubt that Fisk and Daredevil were mortal enemies. This was a good example of "questioning the truth" by the show that worked well. Yes Fisk is a villain, but aren't some of his motives things we can identify with?

They try to give the Punisher the same treatment, but it kind of flops and flails around. This would have worked so much better if there had been a central villain for the audience to root against, with the Punisher and Daredevil arguing about how best to remove the threat to the city.

Then, a whole second story line develops around episode 5 that has nothing to do with what happened in ep 1-4. So then you have two story lines going from then on, with Daredevil showing up just to be yelled at, so he goes back to the other one, and otherwise no crossover between the stories.

Deborah Ann Woll (Karen Page) is the star of the show, she either steals or anchors every scene she's in and was phenomenal to watch. Eldon Hanson (Foggy) does well, particularly with some of the cheesy dialogue he gets. Jon Bernthal (Punisher) is decent, though Frank Castle's never been a particularly deep character. Vincent D’Onofrio is great and scary as Fisk, the little bit of screen time he gets. His voice always seems a little forced, but it worked great in season 1, because you heard him more often and got used to it.

The stairwell fight scene is great. They do a good job of giving the illusion of a single cut, you have to really watch for the edits. It's shot well, good movement from the participants and gives a sense of how small the space is. I wouldn't put it as the "greatest fight scene ever", but it deserves a place on any long list of excellent fight scenes.

Sovereign Court

IT pretty much nails it with his post.

few of my thoughts:
Tony Curran was a great casting. He plays ruthless unconscionable characters really well. Then, they end his character in a single episode....

I was hoping they wouldn't put much focus on Frank Castle himself and aim more for the impact of his actions on Hell's kitchen. I really wanted to have faith that the showrunners had a vision, but in the end everyones worst fear of "thug with gun" was nearly spot on.....

Foggy is getting some great parts. I love how he goes from fumbling buffoon to ace player sometimes during the same scene! Karen Paige is a strong character, but I sometimes wonder why nobody bats an eye at an attorney assistant who goes around investigating crimes (B&E even!) and making deals with newspaper editors and ADAs.....

I am 5 eps deep and its been a pretty bleak ride so far. The Time news guy doesnt have a hornets nest anywhere near him as far as I can tell. I do have several eps left so ill reserve final judgement until im done. Like IT says its not bad for comic lovers, but it could be much better.

The Exchange

Sundakan wrote:

In related news, we're having this discussion just in time for the s#&$fit being thrown over Idris Elba playing Roland in the new Dark Tower film. Yay!

Seriously though for some reason I thought he was black in the book anyway. But it's been forever since I read them.

This will mark I think the first time I've seen this sort of reaction to a BOOK casting. Generally nobody gives a crap because it's not a visual medium to begin with. Unless there's a VERY clear description of the character (which is pretty rare, even for the main character) who's gonna know?

Well, we pretty much know Roland is white in the books, because of the way certain characters react to him (the issue of race comes up specifically). He also has some distinct features that are not really likely for dark skinned people - his "bombardier's eyes" are often described, and always as strikingly blue.

Changing around the way a character looks is matters, and even when it's a book being adapted and everyone has their own version of the character in their head, you are going to get backlash if you go for an option that pretty much everyone can agree is not true to the books. If they chose an actor for Roland who was 5 feet tall, or had a strong french accent, or who was 15 years old, I'm pretty sure there would still have been a large group of book fans upset with the casting, except you would hear less about it because liberal blogs wouldn't spread the word about the haters around with quite the same zeal.

I'm fine with Roland being black - but it is weird, and it annoys me that political correctness prevents a more reasonable discussion of the casting.

As for Iron Fist, I don't actually know the character, but I was really surprised to find out he was white. I mean, I guess I shouldn't have because that's how comic books roll, but everything I heard about the character indicated he was asian. Also, somehow, the picture I've seen of the actor is really off putting - on a purely superficial, first impression basis, he looks annoying. But All Netflix Marvel shows have been good so far, so I'll give him a shot to impress me.


Pan wrote:

IT pretty much nails it with his post.

** spoiler omitted **

The shift from Ep 4 to Ep 5 is the first indication the season lacks some unity and can't find itself. All three Marvel seasons (DareDevil 1&2, Jessica Jones) have had episode pacing problems IMO. This is the worst so far.

I think there's a lot of potential and a lot of interesting things they could be doing with the show, but they just don't. If the trend line continues, I doubt I'll finish season 3. If it improves, even just a little, I will still have complaints, but I will still enjoy watching it.

Oh, the Jessica Jones references are good too. Not too strong, just a couple here and there. I want more of that to keep happening. It felt a little more like both shows might take place in the same time zone. It still doesn't feel like they take place in the same tiny corner of Manhattan though (Hell's Kitchen is only 4 blocks wide and and like 25 blocks long).


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Having watched the whole show in one sitting, overall I really liked it. I thought the disjunction between the 2 threads worked really well to tell a story about how he is failing to juggle the different aspects of his life together.


only watched 4 epiodes so far.

Show of hands

When they brought out the Dog in the torture scene how many people went "oh god please no not the dog"

Spoiler:

I found that whole bit to be a very interesting scene. Not just for how Frank reacted but how I reacted.

When they are doing the torture to Frank I was fine. The story pretty much called for him to be tortured there and beyond a bit of squeemish "that's gotta hurt" reactions I accepted it.

but as soon as they threatened to do the same to the dog I'm like "No, Please no, don't hurt the dog"

It is easier for me to accept the idea of a human being getting tortured than it is for me to accept the same happening to an animal.


Pan wrote:

IT pretty much nails it with his post.

** spoiler omitted **

I finished it yesterday morning...I will have more comments later, but wanted to reply to the comment concerning Tony Curran

Spoiler for comics but not for this season of daredevil:

Tony Curran's character actually played a minor Punisher villain from the comics, whose most notable feature was surviving a shotgun to the face. And yeah he looks about as pretty in the comics as you would expect someone who took a shotgun to the face would.

Now it's most likely that the TV version of his character is dead, but they could bring him back if they wanted to...


Greylurker wrote:

only watched 4 epiodes so far.

Show of hands

When they brought out the Dog in the torture scene how many people went "oh god please no not the dog"

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

It has to do with a few things, I think, because I have the same reaction, except I also have it when someone innocent is being tortured in a TV show.

Frank is, frankly put, an a@~%&~+, and a murderer. A murder I can empathize with, but still. And the only reason he was holding out against torture was stubborn pride.

The dog, meanwhile, isn't even involved in this. He's completely innocent, and can't even understand the concept of "torture" or even "money". Torturing a dog is like torturing a small child. Pointless and sadistic in the extreme.

Liberty's Edge

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Irontruth wrote:
The shift from Ep 4 to Ep 5 is the first indication the season lacks some unity and can't find itself. All three Marvel seasons (DareDevil 1&2, Jessica Jones) have had episode pacing problems IMO.

I think this is largely a factor of the 'release a full season at once' method of distribution. I remember years ago when everyone was raving about 'Lost' I started to binge watch it and was extremely annoyed by the way plot threads constantly wandered off into the jungle to die. From that viewing perspective it was VERY clear that they didn't have some kind of grand complicated plan for the entire series, but rather were just fumbling about with whatever 'weird twist' they thought up each week.

If you are waiting weeks or months between episodes you forget a lot of the fine details and are taking each episode mostly on its own merits. When you watch them one right after the other even things minor like changes in tone or pacing can seem broken.

With binge watching and full season release becoming more common, show runners may need to think more in the mode of 'extended movies' rather than continuing with standard episodic practices.


I really enjoyed Season 1!

I parcel these out over time as a treat rather than binge-watch. I thought Vincent D'Onofrio was excellent as The Kingpin.

I'm looking forward to this season!

Sovereign Court

MMCJawa wrote:
Pan wrote:

IT pretty much nails it with his post.

** spoiler omitted **

I finished it yesterday morning...I will have more comments later, but wanted to reply to the comment concerning Tony Curran

** spoiler omitted **

Nice, hopefully they take advantage of that in the future. Cheers!


Watched the whole thing this weekend...my thoughts

spoiler:

Overall I thought the season was great, although not as good as season 1 or Jessica Jones. Most of that I think comes from the disjointed nature of the two major plotlines. For the most part the Punisher and Elektra/Hand plotlines barely interact, and the plot really lacks a strong central antagonist to merge the two stories together. The Hand are great but Nobu is largely 1D and the Hand are still kept a bit too mysterious and vague to be strong antagonists. Contrast this with Fisk last season or Kilgrave from Jessica Jones

I do get though why you would pair Punisher and Elektra in one season. If last season was about Matt's internal struggles over whether to kill or not, this season gives him two devils to perch on his shoulder and argue the point. The Punisher's pragmatic perspective that DD's methods are just not working, and Elektra acknowledgement of Matts own dark side and whether or not he has a killer inside, just like her.

The supporting cast was great this season. While Matt was...err kind of a #$@%, Foggy did a great job trying to keep the firm going, and calling Matt out on the crap he has landed them in. Karen's transition from secretary to reporter, while perhaps not the most realistic, at least lets her have a less reactionary character arc.

Actions sequences were stellar, and I think the climatic battle was far better than the one last season ended on. The bloody brutality of the Punisher scenes left no doubt that this was not a character to cheer for, while DD appears to have leveled up between seasons, and manages to quickly and efficiently end threats.

Now bring on Luke Cage!


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My thoughts for the next season are as follows.

Spoiler:

It's pretty clear that it's going to be a version of Born Again. The Kingpin's threat was a strong indicator, and the fact that Matt's personal life is basically in shambles, and the fact that Fisk is starting to have Ideas about Matt confirms it.

I know that most people want Bullseye to be the next Big Bad, but he doesn't fit. He's not that kind of major villain. He's the enforcer, the assassin, the obsessive. Don't get me wrong: he will probably appear in some capacity, most likely as the Kingpin's enforcer. If I'm right, then my guess is that he will become obsessed with Daredevil, and that will turn him into a wild card. He'll be more interested in killing Matt than following orders, and that will prove Fisk's undoing.

We may also get Typhoid Mary. The Kingpin knows he has to remove Daredevil, and he wants to hurt Matt. Matt threatened Vanessa, and there is a certain symmetry in using his love life against him. If Karen and Matt stay apart, then there's room in his life for someone new. Hello, Mary. She may also prove a wild card, depending on how she is handled. Plus, she would further link Daredevil to the rest of the Netflix corner of the MCU. She's a mutant in the comics, but they can make her another IGH empowered person here. Marvel Studios probably has the rights to her character, as she was introduced as a Daredevil villain and has had very little interaction with the mutant side of the comics.

Nuke's attack on Hell's Kitchen will probably occur, just not in season three. My guess is that it will happen in The Defenders, with Jessica, Luke, and Danny (and possibly others) filling in for the Avengers as the super powered help Matt needs to restore order. Besides: Jessica lives there too, and Luke and Claire did (they'll both be in Harlem as of the Luke Cage series).


you know, and this is idle speculation that I don't think warrants a spoiler, but I have heard some speculation that they might bring in Typhoid Mary as a Jessica Jones villain, not as a Daredevil one. We know that we are getting a second season (eventually), and Jessica Jones just doesn't really have much of a roster of villains to pull from, unlike DD. Her telekinetic abilities fits in better with Jessica Jones, since she has already dealt with mind controller, and we know that Killgrave wasn't the only person that was experimented on in those trials, so her origin is even set up.

I think Matt has more than enough women in his life to cause complications without bringing Typhoid Mary into the mix.

And man think how noir it would be if one of Mary's personalities unknowingly hired Jessica to investigate the activities of another personality?


Lord Snow wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

In related news, we're having this discussion just in time for the s#&$fit being thrown over Idris Elba playing Roland in the new Dark Tower film. Yay!

Seriously though for some reason I thought he was black in the book anyway. But it's been forever since I read them.

This will mark I think the first time I've seen this sort of reaction to a BOOK casting. Generally nobody gives a crap because it's not a visual medium to begin with. Unless there's a VERY clear description of the character (which is pretty rare, even for the main character) who's gonna know?

Well, we pretty much know Roland is white in the books, because of the way certain characters react to him (the issue of race comes up specifically). He also has some distinct features that are not really likely for dark skinned people - his "bombardier's eyes" are often described, and always as strikingly blue.

Changing around the way a character looks is matters, and even when it's a book being adapted and everyone has their own version of the character in their head, you are going to get backlash if you go for an option that pretty much everyone can agree is not true to the books. If they chose an actor for Roland who was 5 feet tall, or had a strong french accent, or who was 15 years old, I'm pretty sure there would still have been a large group of book fans upset with the casting, except you would hear less about it because liberal blogs wouldn't spread the word about the haters around with quite the same zeal.

I'm fine with Roland being black - but it is weird, and it annoys me that political correctness prevents a more reasonable discussion of the casting.

The biggest problem with making Roland black is that it fundamentally and massively alters the relationship between two of the main characters....Roland and "Detta Walker".


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Norman Osborne wrote:
The biggest problem with making Roland black is that it fundamentally and massively alters the relationship between two of the main characters....Roland and "Detta Walker".

I might agree with you, but I doubt that a mainstream movie would make a particularly book accurate Detta. We'd get the broad strokes only, and her comments toward Roland would not have anything to do with race. By the same token, I expect that Jake will be played by a much older actor.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MMCJawa wrote:

you know, and this is idle speculation that I don't think warrants a spoiler, but I have heard some speculation that they might bring in Typhoid Mary as a Jessica Jones villain, not as a Daredevil one. We know that we are getting a second season (eventually), and Jessica Jones just doesn't really have much of a roster of villains to pull from, unlike DD. Her telekinetic abilities fits in better with Jessica Jones, since she has already dealt with mind controller, and we know that Killgrave wasn't the only person that was experimented on in those trials, so her origin is even set up.

I think Matt has more than enough women in his life to cause complications without bringing Typhoid Mary into the mix.

And man think how noir it would be if one of Mary's personalities unknowingly hired Jessica to investigate the activities of another personality?

Blah, I hope not. JJ has already stolen two of DD's villains. I hope they either create their own or go take from someone else's rogues gallery.


Evan Tarlton wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
The biggest problem with making Roland black is that it fundamentally and massively alters the relationship between two of the main characters....Roland and "Detta Walker".
I might agree with you, but I doubt that a mainstream movie would make a particularly book accurate Detta. We'd get the broad strokes only, and her comments toward Roland would not have anything to do with race.

Probably true. I doubt that liberal Hollywood would be inclined to have a black woman be blatantly racist towards a white man AND actually paint her as being in the wrong.


Callous Jack wrote:
JJ has already stolen two of DD's villains. I hope they either create their own or go take from someone else's rogues gallery.

I'm assuming you mean Kilgrave and Nuke. Nuke may have had his first appearance in a Daredevil comic, but I wouldn't necessarily say that he "belongs" to Daredevil. He's also fought against Captain America and Wolverine (with the most appearances in Wolverine comics, I believe).

As for Kilgrave, he also got shared between DD and Spidey, although he's also turned up in in the Avengers and X-Men. But until Alias, he had never really been remotely as important a villain in any of those stories as he later became to Jessica (and by extension, Luke Cage).

Sometimes villains debut in one hero's title, but go on to become a more important villain for another hero. Daredevil's greatest nemesis is the Kingpin, but that character actually first appeared in Spider-Man titles, and didn't cross paths with the Man without Fear until Daredevil #170.


Norman Osborne wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
The biggest problem with making Roland black is that it fundamentally and massively alters the relationship between two of the main characters....Roland and "Detta Walker".
I might agree with you, but I doubt that a mainstream movie would make a particularly book accurate Detta. We'd get the broad strokes only, and her comments toward Roland would not have anything to do with race.
Probably true. I doubt that liberal Hollywood would be inclined to have a black woman be blatantly racist towards a white man AND actually paint her as being in the wrong.

considering we got monsters ball, your viewpoint is doubtful at best. That said, I could see detta being white- i.e. she thinks she is white and has no idea she is black. I have seen that idea be used before in fiction, albeit not well.

Scarab Sages

Norman Osborne wrote:


Sometimes villains debut in one hero's title, but go on to become a more important villain for another hero. Daredevil's greatest nemesis is the Kingpin, but that character actually first appeared in Spider-Man titles, and didn't cross paths with the Man without Fear until Daredevil #170.

In fact, some of the best Kingpin stories have been team-ups between Spider-Man and Daredevil. While I know there isn't much overlap with characters in the MCU films, I'd love for Spidey to show up in the Defenders.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

The Punisher (who featured prominently this season) was also originally a Spider-Man villain.


Freehold DM wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
The biggest problem with making Roland black is that it fundamentally and massively alters the relationship between two of the main characters....Roland and "Detta Walker".
I might agree with you, but I doubt that a mainstream movie would make a particularly book accurate Detta. We'd get the broad strokes only, and her comments toward Roland would not have anything to do with race.
Probably true. I doubt that liberal Hollywood would be inclined to have a black woman be blatantly racist towards a white man AND actually paint her as being in the wrong.
considering we got monsters ball, your viewpoint is doubtful at best. That said, I could see detta being white- i.e. she thinks she is white and has no idea she is black. I have seen that idea be used before in fiction, albeit not well.

I have to say Dave Chapelle pulled it off very well.

Scarab Sages

Sundakan wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
The biggest problem with making Roland black is that it fundamentally and massively alters the relationship between two of the main characters....Roland and "Detta Walker".
I might agree with you, but I doubt that a mainstream movie would make a particularly book accurate Detta. We'd get the broad strokes only, and her comments toward Roland would not have anything to do with race.
Probably true. I doubt that liberal Hollywood would be inclined to have a black woman be blatantly racist towards a white man AND actually paint her as being in the wrong.
considering we got monsters ball, your viewpoint is doubtful at best. That said, I could see detta being white- i.e. she thinks she is white and has no idea she is black. I have seen that idea be used before in fiction, albeit not well.
I have to say Dave Chapelle pulled it off very well.

Steve Martin as well.


Imbicatus wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
The biggest problem with making Roland black is that it fundamentally and massively alters the relationship between two of the main characters....Roland and "Detta Walker".
I might agree with you, but I doubt that a mainstream movie would make a particularly book accurate Detta. We'd get the broad strokes only, and her comments toward Roland would not have anything to do with race.
Probably true. I doubt that liberal Hollywood would be inclined to have a black woman be blatantly racist towards a white man AND actually paint her as being in the wrong.
considering we got monsters ball, your viewpoint is doubtful at best. That said, I could see detta being white- i.e. she thinks she is white and has no idea she is black. I have seen that idea be used before in fiction, albeit not well.
I have to say Dave Chapelle pulled it off very well.
Steve Martin as well.

bite my tongue, they sure did!


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Imbicatus wrote:
In fact, some of the best Kingpin stories have been team-ups between Spider-Man and Daredevil. While I know there isn't much overlap with characters in the MCU films, I'd love for Spidey to show up in the Defenders.

I would love a Spider-Man Netflix. He stands on the border of street level and superheroic in terms of his wheelhouse. A Three "Amigos" ep with Spidey (the optimist), DD (the realist), and the Punisher (the pessimist) would be all sorts of fun.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Norman Osborne wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
JJ has already stolen two of DD's villains. I hope they either create their own or go take from someone else's rogues gallery.

I'm assuming you mean Kilgrave and Nuke. Nuke may have had his first appearance in a Daredevil comic, but I wouldn't necessarily say that he "belongs" to Daredevil. He's also fought against Captain America and Wolverine (with the most appearances in Wolverine comics, I believe).

As for Kilgrave, he also got shared between DD and Spidey, although he's also turned up in in the Avengers and X-Men. But until Alias, he had never really been remotely as important a villain in any of those stories as he later became to Jessica (and by extension, Luke Cage).

Sometimes villains debut in one hero's title, but go on to become a more important villain for another hero. Daredevil's greatest nemesis is the Kingpin, but that character actually first appeared in Spider-Man titles, and didn't cross paths with the Man without Fear until Daredevil #170.

I see your point. The Marvel universe has changed so much in the last 10-15 years, especially with all the retcons they've done, like putting Nuke into Wolverine: Origins, that heroes and villains are no longer localized to their little neighborhood.

That being said, I love the concept of the classic rogues gallery, the villains being a big part of the overall mythos for the hero. Once you take away the guys that DD shares with Spider-Man, it leaves a small pool of cool villains (Typhoid Mary, Bullseye, Owl, etc.) and I'd like to see those guys stay in the DD universe, not shared out to others. Otherwise we're left with Angar the Sceamer and Stilt-Man and who wants that?

On a silly note, most Marvel villains die in the MCU so if we're going to have a classic DD villain like Death-Stalker or Typhoid Mary show up and get killed, I'd like it to be while fighting DD, not JJ or anyone else.

Sovereign Court

Nuke was in Wolverine: Origins?


Finished watching all of season two. I enjoyed it. Looking forward to all the other marvel shows as well.

Dark Archive

Not read a lot of posts above to avoid spoilers but am on episode 6 after just two viewings. Got late start for work.

Best line so far to raise the little hairs on my collar,

In a great scene worthy of a great series, "Who said I was Yakuza?"


Ok did not expect that

Spoiler:
The evolution of the Kingpin has been excellent. That scene of him enjoying dinner while the other guy is slowly dying in the prison hospital bed was just chilling.


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Finished it earlier today and feel it was on the whole weaker than season 1. Punisher was great but the Hand and Elektra and Stick were pretty weak and uninteresting. Fisk's scenes were excellent and I could probably easily just watch an entire show about him.
Murdoch was, like in s2, bland and boring and DD is only interesting when he's throwing punches. Foggy and the editor (can't remember his name) are amazing and steal every scene they're in. I could probably watch an entire mini series with the two of them teaming up to investigate and advocate.

Dark Archive

MMCJawa wrote:
Now bring on Luke Cage.

We have a little bit of a wait until September 30th, 2016.

I hope they can make that series as engrossing as Daredevil.

Liberty's Edge

I liked it.

That's...actually most of what I had to say. I can see several of the problems some people have (though I think Charlie Cox does a fine job of playing Matt and actually like Matt as portrayed, too), but don't actually have any real issues with them.


Cox's portrayal is true to what I know of Daredevil, but damn if it wasn't still annoying to watch. Which is partly reflected annoyance because people are hating on Foggy in this season because he's a big stinky doodyhead for being the only responsible adult in the entire ensemble.

Liberty's Edge

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Foggy is entirely in the right during every one of his rants. Matt is a terrible lawyer and bad friend.

Liberty's Edge

Matt is pulled in too many directions to do justice to almost any of his responsibilities. I think calling him a terrible lawyer and bad friend is overstating things quite a bit, though.

Foggy remains pretty much entirely correct in at least the vast majority of his complaints (and pretty awesome). This is especially true given the huge gaps in the information Matt gives him.

Spoiler:
He missed court because Elektra was quite possibly dying. Missing a work responsibility to be at the bed side of a friend in critical condition is totally justifiable. But...he never told either Foggy or Karen that, so them not taking it into account is totally reasonable too.


Spoiler:

The problem being, as always, secrets and more importantly THOUGHTLESSNESS. If he had simply called ahead and said "Foggy I can't make it today, a friend of mine has been stabbed, I'm sure you'll do fine without me." I'm sure Foggy would understand.

As-is he just went incommunicado all day and Foggy had to step up at the literal last minute with no preparation to cover his ass.

Liberty's Edge

Spoiler:
Oh, totally.

I doubt he's the first person sitting beside a dying friend who forgot to make that call, though. The real issue is the secrets. I mean...why in the world wouldn't he keep Foggy updated on his Daredevil stuff, since he already knows the big secret? You could establish regular call-ins and Foggy could check on him if he missed one. That would fix not only this problem, but several others that have croppe up over the course of the show.

Hell, you can put it under attorney/client privilege and even avoid most of the potential legal problems involved, practically speaking anyway.

Now, Foggy established he didn't want to know (or at least said so repeatedly and with passion to Matt's face), so some of this issue is on him, but really, Matt should just have something set up. He's new at this, has no real idea what he's doing, and it shows.

I very much hope that the final scene leads to some more sensible choices in this regard next season.


The fact that Foggy managed to salvage his career is a bit irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that Matt launched a volley of torpedos at not just HIS career, but at Foggy's as well.

Sovereign Court

I dislike Matt greatly now. What an a~!$#~+.

Liberty's Edge

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Norman Osborne wrote:
The fact that Foggy managed to salvage his career is a bit irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that Matt launched a volley of torpedos at not just HIS career, but at Foggy's as well.

Someone's life was literally on the line. And not a stranger, either. Someone Mat was close to.

I'm not saying he was in the right (he wasn't, he should've called), but blaming him entirely for prioritizing someone's life over his own and even his friend's career is not a decision I feel makes him unsympathetic or entirely in the wrong.

Of course, he never told Foggy any of that, which makes me pretty sympathetic to Foggy being as pissed as he is at Matt. I just don't think we the viewers should be quite as angry.


Except it wasn't just when Elektra was dying that Matt was ignoring the case. Basically, once he successfully convinced Foggy that they could take on the case (Foggy was initially STRONGLY against it), he didn't do anything more to help on it.

NOT. A. DAMN. THING.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Part of the Matt/Foggy dynamic is that Matt doesn't deserve a friend as good as Foggy Nelson. He keeps secrets, he keeps people in the dark, he breaks promises, and he lets people down. Constantly. He desperately wants to be a good man, and use his abilities to clean up the Kitchen, but he constantly either makes bad decisions, or has to select from the least terrible of several terrible options. Matt does not deserve Foggy's friendship.

And yet, Foggy is Matt's closest friend, because of their long history together. Matt and Foggy are both good lawyers, but they never really achieve greatness unless it's as Nelson & Murdock. They make up for the parts that the other lacks.

Matt does not deserve Foggy's friendship. But he has earned it, over and over again.


Misroi wrote:

Part of the Matt/Foggy dynamic is that Matt doesn't deserve a friend as good as Foggy Nelson. He keeps secrets, he keeps people in the dark, he breaks promises, and he lets people down. Constantly. He desperately wants to be a good man, and use his abilities to clean up the Kitchen, but he constantly either makes bad decisions, or has to select from the least terrible of several terrible options. Matt does not deserve Foggy's friendship.

And yet, Foggy is Matt's closest friend, because of their long history together. Matt and Foggy are both good lawyers, but they never really achieve greatness unless it's as Nelson & Murdock. They make up for the parts that the other lacks.

Matt does not deserve Foggy's friendship. But he has earned it, over and over again.

I think my problem with the case was that Foggy was covering for Matt, but in the one part where they gave Matt a chance cover one of Foggy's weaknesses, the plot required him to blow it, and they only gave him that chance to actually show he could be a good lawyer in the courtroom.


Yeah, that's the thing. Matt has done nothing to earn this friendship over the past year. A friendship that survives solely on past good will is not a strong one, particularly when one half is determined to self destruct and drag you down with him.

Combined with Matt blowing it hardcore after muscling in on the case you were doing fine with after he abandoned it...I would have been super pissed had Foggy stood for that.

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