Daredevil!


Television

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The Exchange

Rynjin wrote:

PG-13 Jessica Jones wouldn't be Jessica Jones. Her actual comic was just shy of X rated from what I've seen. It's part and parcel with the property. It'd be like making an X-Men show and entirely cutting out the fact that Xavier's school exists and is prominent. It just don't work.

Besides which, the Netflix shows are, at best, only tangentially related to the MCU. Different writers, directors, producers, and distributors, and none of the MCU events actually seem to affect the shows except as neat easter eggs. Whole separate ball game. It's not disruptive to sports that a football game and a baseball game don't play the same. Football being a bit of a rougher sport doesn't disrupt what baseball is.

As for how her and Daredevil will mesh...I imagine they WON'T, at first. Every new team has kinks to work out.

The netflix shows do use the movie events as background though. In Daredevil the condition Hell's Kitchen is in is explained to be part of the consequences of the battle of NY, and from what I've seen of JJ so far, there was at least one subplot that depended on that event too. It's subtle and doesn't come into play often, but it's there. Just enough to give a sense that these are happening in the same continuity, without disrupting the standalone nature of either. I think that's brilliant on Marvel's part.

Liberty's Edge

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Via Luke Cage and Danny Rand.


Rynjin wrote:
PG-13 Jessica Jones wouldn't be Jessica Jones. Her actual comic was just shy of X rated from what I've seen. It's part and parcel with the property. It'd be like making an X-Men show and entirely cutting out the fact that Xavier's school exists and is prominent. It just don't work.

Which is why I really can't understand how this project ever got green-lit in the first place.

Jessica Jones just doesn't have the resume to justify a solo series. Everyone else has 50 years of history... she's getting hit with all the 'Who is Jessica Jones' promos.

With the entire stable available to Marvel at any given time... the reason they went for the X-rated book was a strange move.

Even if they didn't want to do Luke Cage without her (Which wouldn't be unheard of since he has a LOT of history without here...) She could have easily been worked into his series.

There are a lot of things that 'had' to happen... but Jones getting a series wasn't even close. There are a ton more characters that I think would have worked better... and still kept things a bit more... even with the other properties.

Rynjin wrote:


Besides which, the Netflix shows are, at best, only tangentially related to the MCU. Different writers, directors, producers, and distributors, and none of the MCU events actually seem to affect the shows except as neat easter eggs. Whole separate ball game. It's not disruptive to sports that a football game and a baseball game don't play the same. Football being a bit of a rougher sport doesn't disrupt what baseball is.

As for how her and Daredevil will mesh...I imagine they WON'T, at first. Every new team has kinks to work out.

The fact that aliens invaded and decimated New York/Hell's kitchen was the backbone of Daredevil. Kingpin's whole thing was about the rebuilding process.

Could they be done without any connection at all? Yeah, probably, but they put them in and acknowledge the shared universe.


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phantom1592 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
PG-13 Jessica Jones wouldn't be Jessica Jones. Her actual comic was just shy of X rated from what I've seen. It's part and parcel with the property. It'd be like making an X-Men show and entirely cutting out the fact that Xavier's school exists and is prominent. It just don't work.

Which is why I really can't understand how this project ever got green-lit in the first place.

Jessica Jones just doesn't have the resume to justify a solo series. Everyone else has 50 years of history... she's getting hit with all the 'Who is Jessica Jones' promos.

With the entire stable available to Marvel at any given time... the reason they went for the X-rated book was a strange move.

Even if they didn't want to do Luke Cage without her (Which wouldn't be unheard of since he has a LOT of history without here...) She could have easily been worked into his series.

There are a lot of things that 'had' to happen... but Jones getting a series wasn't even close. There are a ton more characters that I think would have worked better... and still kept things a bit more... even with the other properties.

What "has" to happen. This is entertainment. None of it is necessary.

They wanted to do a Defenders series down the line. They wanted to make use of lesser known properties (with popular, relatively well known B-lister Dardevil breaking the ice.).

They thought Jessica Jones would be a good series to make. They were correct.

I for one am glad EVERY SINGLE THING isn't some character that's been done to death. I like Hulk and Iron Man as much as the next guy, but everything Marvel can't be about the Avengers (which are already on the borderline of mainstream knowledge) or the X-Men or Spider-Man on and on to infinity and beyond. Other properties exist with lots of potential. All of these characters have potential.

These guys are a good fit together because, let's face it, the average watcher of the MCU movies is going "Who is Luke Cage?" and "Who is Iron Fist?" just as much as they are "Who is Jessica Jones?", and before Daredevil came out "Wasn't that the blind guy played by Ben Affleck? That movie was kind of okay I guess". The name recognition isn't a factor here.

The only thing needed to "justify" a TV series being made is a single question: "Will this be entertaining?". The creators thought so, as did the majority of viewers, which makes it a success. I didn't like it as much as Daredevil, but it was certainly well made.

Just this idea that some properties "deserve" to be adapted more than others is weird to me, especially when your definition of "deserves" seems to be "Is already well known with tons of exposure" and also "Doesn't push the envelope in any way". In other words, safe options. Risky ones don't "have to happen", therefore they shouldn't.

phantom1592 wrote:


The fact that aliens invaded and decimated New York/Hell's kitchen was the backbone of Daredevil. Kingpin's whole thing was about the rebuilding process.

Could they be done without any connection at all? Yeah, probably, but they put them in and acknowledge the shared universe.

Backbone? More like backdrop. Remove the Chitauri attack and replace it with any other calamity and you have the exact same series.

Hell, remove the calamity entirely and barely anything changes. Hell's Kitchen was already a s#$&hole before anyway, it's no surprise some bad guy with a lot of money and ambition and little sense thinks "Tear it down and start over" is the best option available. That's Ra's Al Ghul's entire plan in Batman Begins, after all. No aliens required there.

Liberty's Edge

Actually, they needed some excuse. Hell's Kitchen hasn'the been a s%%$ hole for two, almost three, decades.

Well, I suppose that depends on you opinion of gentrification.


Hell's Kitchen hasn't even been called that in 2-3 decades either IIRC, so that point is moot. Isn't it Midtown West now or something?


Rynjin wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
PG-13 Jessica Jones wouldn't be Jessica Jones. Her actual comic was just shy of X rated from what I've seen. It's part and parcel with the property. It'd be like making an X-Men show and entirely cutting out the fact that Xavier's school exists and is prominent. It just don't work.

Which is why I really can't understand how this project ever got green-lit in the first place.

Jessica Jones just doesn't have the resume to justify a solo series. Everyone else has 50 years of history... she's getting hit with all the 'Who is Jessica Jones' promos.

With the entire stable available to Marvel at any given time... the reason they went for the X-rated book was a strange move.

Even if they didn't want to do Luke Cage without her (Which wouldn't be unheard of since he has a LOT of history without here...) She could have easily been worked into his series.

There are a lot of things that 'had' to happen... but Jones getting a series wasn't even close. There are a ton more characters that I think would have worked better... and still kept things a bit more... even with the other properties.

What "has" to happen. This is entertainment. None of it is necessary.

You implied that Jessica Jones 'had' to be R. I kind of agree based on the source... though I believe a talented director can capture the desired themes with nearly any rating.

I think there is a bit more to justifying a tv show then that. Especially with something like Marvel. First of all. Will it be entertaining. Will people watch it. They probably had that. The marvel shows have a massive push because they tie together. If they had not announced the other three solos, or advertised that they were all going to team up later... I'm not sure how many people would have watched it.

Or frankly even recognized it as a marvel show...

I watched it because of the perceived obligation and not wanting to 'miss' anything... but I thought it was meh, and probably won't bother if they have a second season

Next on the list is usually 'Is anyone asking for this?' 'Can we market it? Will there be toys and tie ins? How large of a demographic will it reach?

Frankly I think JJ failed on most of these. Most people I know shut it off after the first two episodes, there won't be any legos or action figures for this.... maybe a few adult statues, but that seems a push.

I just would have loved to have seen the meeting where this was green lit. Is Bendis overly involved in the cinematic proceedings? I know he made her and has a soft spot for her...

As for the rest, I think you can you have lesser known characters that still have a lot of marketability and demand. Personally as much as I like Cumberbatch, I kind of wish that Dr. Strange was turned into a series. Most of the fun Supernatural shows seem to be wrapping up or winding down. That would have been fun.

Luke Cage is one of the first major black heroes and really isn't that popular in the media and where he goes, Iron Fist usually follows. That still has potential. Ghost Rider could have been a street level Defender. Black Panther? He's got a following. Cloak and Dagger? They're tied in with drug trades and homeless... that could be pretty envelope pushing... Sleepwalker? That's pushing the obscureness to the limit, but MAN that could have some fun visuals... Personally I'd love me some Nightstalkers! I've wanted that for 20 years. Punisher? I can't stand the guy, but he's got a lot of fans.

There have been a LOT of characters. A-list.... B-list... Even C-list characters that have never had a tv series and been around for 50 years.

Seeing this?? It feels like giving an MVP award to a rookie on his first day.


Rynjin wrote:
Hell's Kitchen hasn't even been called that in 2-3 decades either IIRC, so that point is moot. Isn't it Midtown West now or something?

LOL!

I loved how They touched on that in the Affleck movie. "Names change, They call it XXXXXX now, but to the people who live here, it'll always 'the kitchen'."


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"Next on the list" for adult shows isn't usually toys. Not everything needs to be family friendly.

"Everyone you know" is a small subset of people. Most who watched it (which was a lot of people) found it good.

You can have your opinion that it was a bad show.

But calling it unnecessary and casting aspersions on the creators, implying they only made it because they were pressured to, is uncalled for.


Rynjin wrote:
"Next on the list" for adult shows isn't usually toys. Not everything needs to be family friendly.

Between Marvel and Disney? With tie ins to the insane cash cow that is the Avengers? I'm sure the conversation came up.

Rynjin wrote:


But calling it unnecessary and casting aspersions on the creators, implying they only made it because they were pressured to, is uncalled for.

1) I thought you just said in the land of entertainment it was all unnecessary?

2) I wasn't implying pressure... I was implying it was a vanity project ;)

Dark Archive

Rynjin wrote:
Hell's Kitchen hasn't even been called that in 2-3 decades either IIRC, so that point is moot. Isn't it Midtown West now or something?

As a ten year plus resident, we still call it hell's kitchen, although some few times midtown west applies.

The local area has been über gentrified to the point that even the Kingpin would have trouble getting a table at some spots.


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@phantom1592 : I find it funny, that you think Jessica Jones does not deserve a series, but then say really obscure stuff like Sleepwalker would deserve one.

Yes it could work with the right people behind it. That is one of the things I love about the Marvel stuff. It is possible that someone like Sleepwalker shows up. They are willing to risk something.

After announcing that they would make a Guardians of the Galaxy movie, people were saying that will be Marvels first flop. Some of them sounded almost happy about it. But after making it great, Marvel could make a D-Man movie and i would watch it^^

Sovereign Court

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Seriously, just because you don't like R rated stuff doesn't mean that other people don't.

Liberty's Edge

Are gratis artis.


Rynjin wrote:
Hell's Kitchen hasn't even been called that in 2-3 decades either IIRC, so that point is moot. Isn't it Midtown West now or something?

It's hells kitchen.

Only idiot listing agents try to change the name. They are usually laughed at.

There are parts of hells kitchen that have been gussied up, but it's still a rather sketchy area with some nice buildings and a lot of not so nice ones.


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Jessica Jones was adapted because...it's main storyline was considered a critical success. and the only thing they cut from the storyline for the current rating was the use of F-bombs. If your trying to create 13 episodes of TV which require mature plots + super heroics, Jessica Jones is a pretty good choice.

And the Netflix series...were always intended to be the dark and mature side of Marvel. I mean have people already forgotten some of the stuff in Daredevil? Sex slavery? Decapitation by car door? Death by bowling ball? Jessica Jones may have been more personal, but I don't think rating wise it was any worse than Daredevil.


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MMCJawa wrote:

Jessica Jones was adapted because...it's main storyline was considered a critical success. and the only thing they cut from the storyline for the current rating was the use of F-bombs. If your trying to create 13 episodes of TV which require mature plots + super heroics, Jessica Jones is a pretty good choice.

And the Netflix series...were always intended to be the dark and mature side of Marvel. I mean have people already forgotten some of the stuff in Daredevil? Sex slavery? Decapitation by car door? Death by bowling ball? Jessica Jones may have been more personal, but I don't think rating wise it was any worse than Daredevil.

Depends if your talking to a US audience or international one. The US is ridiculously lax with violence and cracks down on any sex themes.

Scarab Sages

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MMCJawa wrote:
And the Netflix series...were always intended to be the dark and mature side of Marvel. I mean have people already forgotten some of the stuff in Daredevil? Sex slavery? Decapitation by car door? Death by bowling ball? Jessica Jones may have been more personal, but I don't think rating wise it was any worse than Daredevil.

Suicide by jagged wooden spike was the most memorable for me. Daredevil was much more gory than what I normally watch, and was the best show of the IMO. The netflix marvel series are darker and more mature than anything you'll see in a film or on Agents of Shield. And that's not a bad thing.

Sovereign Court

R rated stuff is pretty normal for me. So are explicit sex scenes.

Sovereign Court

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TMI


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Rynjin wrote:
Hell's Kitchen hasn't even been called that in 2-3 decades either IIRC, so that point is moot. Isn't it Midtown West now or something?

Yeah Midtown West. They tried calling it "Clinton" for a while but I dont think it ever took.

People were still like:

"So where exactly is Empanada Mama at?"

"its on 51st and 9th..."

"...In Hell's Kitchen?

"Yeah."

For native New Yorkers it's always gonna be Hell's Kitchen. Even Google Maps still has it as such I think.

Dark Archive

phantom1592 wrote:

Which is why I really can't understand how this project ever got green-lit in the first place.

Jessica Jones just doesn't have the resume to justify a solo series. Everyone else has 50 years of history... she's getting hit with all the 'Who is Jessica Jones' promos.

They wanted a female character.

Their big 5 lady heroes;

Storm (owned by Fox)
Jean Gray (Fox)
Invisible Woman (Fox)
Wasp (not available)
Scarlet Witch (not available)

Defenders/Heroes for Hire
Valkyrie (would have been introduced in Thor)
Moondragon (would have been introduced in Guardians of the Galaxy)
Hellcat (hey, they used her as a supporting character!)

There's various reasons they couldn't use Spider-Woman (Sony), She-Hulk (would be established in a Hulk movie), Black Widow (already done), etc. and the tone called for someone with down-to-earth physical powers, more of a 'street level' hero than someone like Monica Rambeau or Crystal or whatever.

Jessica Jones may be, in the sense of the long, long history of the Marvel comic book universe, a brand new character (like DaisyQuake on SHIELD), but she's pretty much what they got stuck with due to circumstances.

I'd have rather seen a Daughters of the Dragon story with Misty Knight and Colleen Wing, but I'm not sure the people who make the decisions are ready for a leading character who is both a woman *and* a person of color.

For newer characters, the latest White Tiger, Ava Ayala, might also have been cool. Or Elsa Bloodstone. Just not Squirrel Girl. Ugh. :)

Scarab Sages

I'd like to see a well done Laura Kinney, but that's not going to happen as she is tied to Wolverine/X-men.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Set wrote:
Jessica Jones may be, in the sense of the long, long history of the Marvel comic book universe, a brand new character (like DaisyQuake on SHIELD), but she's pretty much what they got stuck with due to circumstances.

It's because she's Luke Cage's girlfriend in the comics and the mother of his daughter. She's probably pregnant now at the end of her first season, seeing how they literally broke the bed on this one.


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phantom1592 wrote:
Spoiler:
Whereas Jessica Jones just spent the second half of the season trying to figure out a way to get close enough to murder Kilgrave dead... and all her support staff was helping.

Spoiler:
Actually, once Jones figured out Kilgrave was back and that she couldn't run away, she could have wrapped the series up in just a few episodes if she only wanted to kill him. She demonstrated some pretty good detective/PI skills, so she could have found him, and she was always physically cable of killing him. Her problems were:

.
1) she needed to save Hope, and that meant...
2) proving Kilgrave was not only alive, but that he had actual mind control powers with evidence that would hold up in court...
3) all while trying to deal with her PTSD, shattered self-confidence, self-hatred, and self-isolation.

Killing Kilgrave seems like the pragmatic, cut-your-losses, protect-future-innocents solution, except Jessica was trying to prove to herself that she wasn't a killer. Yeah, she demonstrated poor planning in how she went about it (refer back to #3 above) and was woefully lacking in experience, but she tried up until the very end to not become the killer, to not lose Hope.

Matt Murdock would definitely understand her struggle not to become a killer, because he went through it himself in season 1. He would understand her struggle with the darker aspects of herself. He would understand her need for hope. I think Murdock and Jones could mesh pretty well together once they both could learn to drop their defenses.


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As to the ending, I think the only thing that could have made it cooler is if at the end Foggy was the person on the other line looking for a detective.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Caineach wrote:
As to the ending, I think the only thing that could have made it cooler is if at the end Foggy was the person on the other line looking for a detective.

YES!


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Set wrote:
Jessica Jones may be, in the sense of the long, long history of the Marvel comic book universe, a brand new character (like DaisyQuake on SHIELD), but she's pretty much what they got stuck with due to circumstances.
It's because she's Luke Cage's girlfriend in the comics and the mother of his daughter. She's probably pregnant now at the end of her first season, seeing how they literally broke the bed on this one.

I'm betting they hold off on any pregnancy until post Defenders. depending on how the timeline works it might be awhile before we get another season, and I don't see them doing this offscreen. Plus I don't know if they want a super pregnant or just had a baby Jessica Jones as a major player in the Defenders.

Liberty's Edge

True fans want just had a baby JJ so she has to hire a nanny.


Can you let me borrow your microscope so I can see that image?

Liberty's Edge

Kirby-damnit...

It should be fixed now.

Sovereign Court

not

Dark Archive

But it looks promising.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
MMCJawa wrote:
and I don't see them doing this offscreen.

You, Sir, have too great an eXXXpectation for this show, I think. ;)

Dark Archive

Teaser for Season Two and March return date

Sovereign Court

So a bunch of screenshots from the first season and a voice over. Wow.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

And a release date. I was happy it was a birthday present for me.

Dark Archive

Hama wrote:
So a bunch of screenshots from the first season and a voice over.

Animation reminiscent of graphic novels too. Its a teaser.

Scarab Sages

I'm really interested to see how they treat the Punisher in this, and I hope he survives the Season.

Dark Archive

Imbicatus wrote:
I'm really interested to see how they treat the Punisher in this, and I hope he survives the Season.

Considering he is an a$$et that could have his own series or at least make recurring cameos for Netflix, I would guess he has Superman level plot armor.


My number one hope for season 2.

More TURK!!! I loved just about every scene with that guy in it. It was funny because I didn't recognize him at first, and thought he'd be some recurring super-gangster threat...

then I heard the word Turk, and knew he was going to be comedy gold :D


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I'm really interested to see how they treat the Punisher in this, and I hope he survives the Season.
Considering he is an a$$et that could have his own series or at least make recurring cameos for Netflix, I would guess he has Superman level plot armor.

Considering there was talk of setting aside Iron Fist to do a Punisher show (thankfully, that did not happen) I think it's safe to say that Frank will be sticking around awhile, and possibly get the Netflix treatment himself at a later date.

Dark Archive Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere

JoelF847 wrote:
And a release date. I was happy it was a birthday present for me.

Same here as well. Oh Marvel, how did you know! It was exactly what I wanted!

Liberty's Edge

I still want a proper season 2 trailer.

Scarab Sages

CapeCodRPGer wrote:
I still want a proper season 2 trailer.

We'll get one in about a month or so.

Liberty's Edge

No good deed goes unpunished...


Krensky wrote:
No good deed goes unpunished...

I have long hated punisher. I really hate all the murdering 'anti-heroes' who are really little better then criminals themselves. It's just not my brand of hero.

THAT said... the only time I really can stomach him is when he guest stars in a DD book and it's just an epic clash of ideologies with Matt going out of his way to save criminals FROM Frank. That makes for some epic storytelling.

This season looks like it's going to be pretty awesome.

Except for Elektra... She's annoying too. Not sure what role SHE'S going to play yet...

Liberty's Edge

Well, Frank seems pretty solidly the antagonist in this, with nary a whiff another one.

Elektra seems to be posed as a seperate, third side of the morality question. Less heroic than Murdock, but nowhere near as villainous as Frank. Probably something similar to Huntress first appearance in Arrow.

Sovereign Court

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Krensky wrote:
Well, Frank seems pretty solidly the antagonist in this, with nary a whiff another one.

The actor did say he was going for completely unrelatable.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww f@@% YEAH!!

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