Daredevil!


Television

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True, although pretty soon Shield is going to have their hands full...


Wesley- " Do you think I would leave a loaded gun on the table in front of you?"

Karen- "Do you think you're the first person I've shot?"

So much foreshadowing in the series. Love it.

Shadow Lodge

John Kretzer wrote:
If a woman who got scapels surgically attached to her fingertips made it on the index

The thing is, we don't know anything about fingernails woman. We don't know if they were sugically attached, or if that's simply how her fingernails grow. It's safe to assume they can't be readily removed, as if that were the caste they would simply have done so, instead of wasting man-hours keeping tabs on her.


Kthulhu wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
If a woman who got scapels surgically attached to her fingertips made it on the index
The thing is, we don't know anything about fingernails woman. We don't know if they were sugically attached, or if that's simply how her fingernails grow. It's safe to assume they can't be readily removed, as if that were the caste they would simply have done so, instead of wasting man-hours keeping tabs on her.

They specifically say she had them surgically grafted on though.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Rynjin wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
If a woman who got scapels surgically attached to her fingertips made it on the index
The thing is, we don't know anything about fingernails woman. We don't know if they were sugically attached, or if that's simply how her fingernails grow. It's safe to assume they can't be readily removed, as if that were the caste they would simply have done so, instead of wasting man-hours keeping tabs on her.
They specifically say she had them surgically grafted on though.

Karla Faye Gideon went on a killing spree with her razor fingers, which probably went a long way toward putting her on SHIELD's radar.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
John Kretzer wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:

I read that the show actually takes place 18 months after the first Avengers movie, so it takes place Pre-Winter Soldier.

Um as for why Hydra/Shield isn't interested? why would they be? The only thing reported in the media is that a highly skilled vigilante is running around. He's not punching people through walls or flying around in power armor...there is no indication he should belong on the index.

If a woman who got scapels surgically attached to her fingertips made it on the index...I would think they would maybe investigate it...but he has not made that big of a splash as of yet...

Hey, he's a lawyer... law enforcement is afraid of lawyers in general...

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Can't find anything that gives an exact date on what's happened and what hasn't in Daredevil, so all we know for sure is that the Battle of New York has happened. You'd think there'd have been a reference to the fallout from SHIELD dissolving, but there's nothing there. So, two options exist: either SHIELD is officially active, or unofficially active. In Case 1, we need to explain why Matt isn't on the list (or, if he is, why he's not more closely followed and watched). Case 2 is a bit easier to get behind. The SHIELD remnants are so dispersed that they don't have time to deal with a costumed vigilante.

And, honestly, that might be why SHIELD hasn't gone after him in the first place. Aside from Matt's fighting skills, his power is more or less invisible. Since Matt's only just started cleaning up Hell's Kitchen, SHIELD has had no reason to make finding the Devil of Hell's Kitchen and recruiting him. (As it happens, I would totally watch Matt Murdock: Agent of SHIELD.)

One more fun fact: Daredevil is the first Marvel Studios hero to actually have a secret identity.

Liberty's Edge

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Iron Man did. For all of like five minutes before Tony's narcissism reared it's head.

Depending on how you count Hank Pym might be called the first too.

But yeah, he's the first we've seen who tried to keep it a secret.


Up until the first episode, Shield has no reason to have Murdock on any list. He has supernatural senses, which is more or less undetectable, and trains martial arts in secret. Not really something that can be identified ahead of time. Until s!#! hits the fan, all Shield really has to go on is that someone is going after the street gangs, which isn't a big priority. That scenario puts whoever it is at around the level of a top agent, which probably put a low-level agent in charge of IDing him. But he mostly goes dark after that, making their job difficult. So it isn't until the end that I feel it is reasonable to have SHIELD make contact.

Liberty's Edge

On the other hand Ms Jones and Mr Cage are much more likely to attract attention. Granted, SHIELD should already know about both of them when AKA Jessica Jones starts.


Guys, Matt had super senses and something quite close to synaesthisia for YEARS, i find it very hard to believe that S.H.I.E.L.D didn't hear anything about him and (at least) put his name in the Index.

Also i was talking about the case that the daredevil series takes place after the dissolution of S.H.I.E.L.D. where both Hydra and Shield(s) have kept an eye on super powered individuals

agents of shield season 2 spoiler:
We even have Coulson recruiting super powered individuals from around the globe
.


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leo1925 wrote:

Guys, Matt had super senses and something quite close to synaesthisia for YEARS, i find it very hard to believe that S.H.I.E.L.D didn't hear anything about him and (at least) put his name in the Index.

Also i was talking about the case that the daredevil series takes place after the dissolution of S.H.I.E.L.D. where both Hydra and Shield(s) have kept an eye on super powered individuals
** spoiler omitted **.

Yes, but as far as superpowers go, super senses are one of the hardest to detect, especially if the person is trying to actively hide them. Hell, his best friend couldn't tell.


leo1925 wrote:

Guys, Matt had super senses and something quite close to synaesthisia for YEARS, i find it very hard to believe that S.H.I.E.L.D didn't hear anything about him and (at least) put his name in the Index.

Also i was talking about the case that the daredevil series takes place after the dissolution of S.H.I.E.L.D. where both Hydra and Shield(s) have kept an eye on super powered individuals
** spoiler omitted **.

It's possible, but in the comics world no one knew. He kept it well hidden.

If it's not common knowledge to his friends, I don't see any reason SHIELD should know.


I am pretty sure Foggy knows that Matt isn't like the other blind men, also it didn't seem to me that Matt was trying really hard to keep his super senses from showing and that's the Matt now as an adult, i am guessing that a kid (and then teen and then young adult) Matt would be even worse at hiding it all the time.


leo1925 wrote:
I am pretty sure Foggy knows that Matt isn't like the other blind men, also it didn't seem to me that Matt was trying really hard to keep his super senses from showing and that's the Matt now as an adult, i am guessing that a kid (and then teen and then young adult) Matt would be even worse at hiding it all the time.

Have you finished the series?


Caineach wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I am pretty sure Foggy knows that Matt isn't like the other blind men, also it didn't seem to me that Matt was trying really hard to keep his super senses from showing and that's the Matt now as an adult, i am guessing that a kid (and then teen and then young adult) Matt would be even worse at hiding it all the time.
Have you finished the series?

Not yet, i am still at episode 7.


leo1925 wrote:
Caineach wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I am pretty sure Foggy knows that Matt isn't like the other blind men, also it didn't seem to me that Matt was trying really hard to keep his super senses from showing and that's the Matt now as an adult, i am guessing that a kid (and then teen and then young adult) Matt would be even worse at hiding it all the time.
Have you finished the series?
Not yet, i am still at episode 7.

They comic book logic address most of those complaints by the end


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
If a woman who got scapels surgically attached to her fingertips made it on the index
The thing is, we don't know anything about fingernails woman. We don't know if they were sugically attached, or if that's simply how her fingernails grow. It's safe to assume they can't be readily removed, as if that were the caste they would simply have done so, instead of wasting man-hours keeping tabs on her.
They specifically say she had them surgically grafted on though.
Karla Faye Gideon went on a killing spree with her razor fingers, which probably went a long way toward putting her on SHIELD's radar.

But still doesn't explain why "TUUUUUUUUBESS!!!!" was a better option than "Hey, why don't we just...remove the razors?".


leo1925 wrote:
I am pretty sure Foggy knows that Matt isn't like the other blind men, also it didn't seem to me that Matt was trying really hard to keep his super senses from showing and that's the Matt now as an adult, i am guessing that a kid (and then teen and then young adult) Matt would be even worse at hiding it all the time.

Not every blind person is equally blind. Given Matt's abilities, it would probably be easy for him to fake any tests that might demonstrate him as having no light perception (ie, total blindness).

Even if he couldn't, it would still be a pretty big leap to automatically assume he must have superpowers, particularly when such things weren't exactly a known phenomenon in the MCU until very recently. He wouldn't necessarily have shown up on SHIELD's radar.

That said, obviously Stick came into some degree of awareness of him. Whether that was random chance, Stick had specifically put himself out there to find "special" kids by posing as a teacher of the blind (hence leading to the nuns at St. Agnes contacting him to help Matt), or whether there was something more to it, remains to be seen. So it's possible that SHIELD, or HYDRA, or somebody else might have also been aware.


spoiler for season 1 finale:

Speaking of Shield/Hydra connections, did anyone think Hydra were the people Kingpin contacted to break him out? The Commando gear kind of reminded me of Hydra, but it is also very much standard issue swat gear.

Dark Archive

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Funny I was thinking that too, except

Spoiler:
That team that got Fisk free was 10 times more competent and deadlier than any HYDRA team I have seen in Agents of SHIELD, those guys make Rebel's cartoon Stormtroopers look elite.

Dark Archive

As to SHIELD having Daredevil 'on a list' somewhere, it seems that they had Hawkeye and Black Widow on lists, and they don't have anything other than 'loots hot in black leather' and 'knows how to shoot a gun while doing a backflip' and 'brings a bow to a gunfight' for super-powers.

They certainly might have missed him, over the vigilantes with splashier powers, but his appearing to be non-powered doesn't mean he's going to skate. It just means he'll be on the 'threat list' and not necessarily on the 'index.'

Over the course of the series, people in Hell's Kitchen seem to know about him, even if only as 'the Devil of Hell's Kitchen,' so he's not keeping *that* low of a profile. Given SHIELD's circumstances, they may not have gotten around to sending an agent to track him down and find out what his deal is, but they probably have a file on him (and dozens of other non-powered self-appointed vigilantes, or people who the news reported as doing something amazing, like lifting a van off their child in a burst of adrenaline or surviving getting hit by lightning, as people to 'check out, eventually, just to be sure').


Remember that Hell's Kitchen is like...a square mile. Some (not even all) people in that area knowing about him is not a whole lot of people.


MMCJawa wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

:
Well in the comics he did once work for them...and he did have the attitude similar to theirs as 'Order by any means'. So who knows...I think it would be kind of funny if he sells out Hydra in the next season to gain his freedom...
Shadow Lodge

I get the feeling that as the show opens, he's only just begun his vigilante career.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Rynjin wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
If a woman who got scapels surgically attached to her fingertips made it on the index
The thing is, we don't know anything about fingernails woman. We don't know if they were sugically attached, or if that's simply how her fingernails grow. It's safe to assume they can't be readily removed, as if that were the caste they would simply have done so, instead of wasting man-hours keeping tabs on her.
They specifically say she had them surgically grafted on though.
Karla Faye Gideon went on a killing spree with her razor fingers, which probably went a long way toward putting her on SHIELD's radar.
But still doesn't explain why "TUUUUUUUUBESS!!!!" was a better option than "Hey, why don't we just...remove the razors?".

Hey, no arguments here :) I said the same thing.

Now if she were growing razor sharp metallic fingernails for some reason, that would explain the tubes. I wonder if that was the original explanation, and it changed during production.


I thought she had done something a little more extensive than just surgically attaching razor blades? but it's been awhile since I have seen that episode.


Set wrote:

As to SHIELD having Daredevil 'on a list' somewhere, it seems that they had Hawkeye and Black Widow on lists, and they don't have anything other than 'loots hot in black leather' and 'knows how to shoot a gun while doing a backflip' and 'brings a bow to a gunfight' for super-powers.

They certainly might have missed him, over the vigilantes with splashier powers, but his appearing to be non-powered doesn't mean he's going to skate. It just means he'll be on the 'threat list' and not necessarily on the 'index.'

Over the course of the series, people in Hell's Kitchen seem to know about him, even if only as 'the Devil of Hell's Kitchen,' so he's not keeping *that* low of a profile. Given SHIELD's circumstances, they may not have gotten around to sending an agent to track him down and find out what his deal is, but they probably have a file on him (and dozens of other non-powered self-appointed vigilantes, or people who the news reported as doing something amazing, like lifting a van off their child in a burst of adrenaline or surviving getting hit by lightning, as people to 'check out, eventually, just to be sure').

Agent Carter:
Black Widow's training program was discovered by the US during the cold war, so when Soviet Russia fell if falls to reason that their agent's were put on watch lists

Hawkeye is trained special forces. Its not a jump to suspect that elite military personnel would be put on a watchlist.

Matt Murdock is neither of these things. His training was completely unsanctioned by any organization and done in secret.


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MMCJawa wrote:
I thought she had done something a little more extensive than just surgically attaching razor blades? but it's been awhile since I have seen that episode.

No. It was that bad.

Dark Archive

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For those who played the old Marvel Superheros Game, I'll just leave this here.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Constantine wrote:
I don't want to derail this thread with an argument about the Punisher, but I disagree entirely with your take on him. The Punisher doesn't kill indiscriminately, nor is he just an "a@*$@$$ with a gun." He's a soldier who has transferred his war to the kind of criminals who killed his family, and anyone who support them. He's a hero, an anti-hero to be sure, but a hero nonetheless.

Actually when he was first introduced, as one of Spiderman's Rouges Gallery of villains, he was exactly that much of a screwball. That's been ret-conned since he became a Marvel heroic figure, but that incarnation was around long enough to stick as a first impression that doesn't go away.


Not finished with all of it yet, but:

Anybody else getting a Dread Pirate Roberts feel from Fisk?

Dread Pirate Fisk wrote:
Thank you, Wesley. Good work. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.

Liberty's Edge

He was an antagonist, not a villain, and that went away after his first arc with with Spidey. He then teamed up with Spidey and Cap and used as a foil for Daredevil. He was also conflicted as to what he had become and what he did even in the first appearances.

Grand Lodge

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Veiled Nail wrote:

Not finished with all of it yet, but:

Anybody else getting a Dread Pirate Roberts feel from Fisk?

Dread Pirate Fisk wrote:
Thank you, Wesley. Good work. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.

Not really. Dread Pirate Roberts was a complete sham as a villain, relying on his reputation to enable him to keep from following up on his perceived threat.

Fisk is a thug brutish killer trying to hold a veneer of being a respectable, learned, heroic figure. And he does so through self-rationalization. And that's where the big difference comes out. Fisk is pathologically insane, with a lot of berserk buttons that will provoke the same murderous response.


leo1925 wrote:
I am pretty sure Foggy knows that Matt isn't like the other blind men, also it didn't seem to me that Matt was trying really hard to keep his super senses from showing and that's the Matt now as an adult, i am guessing that a kid (and then teen and then young adult) Matt would be even worse at hiding it all the time.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you, I don't actually interact with blind people in anything that could remotely called a common way. The people who have been seeing impaired that I have interacted with in the past on a regular basis were legally blind, i.e. not fully blind. If Foggy's experience is even remotely like mine, Matt might be the first and only fully blind person he has interacted with on a regular basis and thus might have no idea how "other blind men" act other than in a stereotypical way, which Matt does.


I just rented Mockingjay, Part 1 last night, and it was totally immersion breaking seeing Foggy as Cressida's mute cameraman.

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The Punisher will be part of the Season 2 story arc.


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As long as he doesn't get his own show.


Appropriate casting (though Bernthal looks a bit smaller than when he was on TWD).

Sovereign Court

Very happy the punisher is getting an appearance. Bernthal should do a decent job of it.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
The Punisher will be part of the Season 2 story arc.

sooo... He's playing the same character, again?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
As long as he doesn't get his own show.

I dunno. I'm not the biggest Punisher fan on the planet, but I can see him fitting into the Netflixverse. Daredevil's success suggests they'd turn out a pretty good story, and at the end of the day, isn't that what we want?

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Awesome

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Misroi wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
As long as he doesn't get his own show.
I'm not the biggest Punisher fan on the planet, but I can see him fitting into the Netflixverse.

Yeah, considering all the corruption that got exposed at the end of Daredevil, plus the brutal gunfight and escape from custody that was stopped only by a masked hero, it makes sense that someone would decide law enforcement wasn't up to the task, and decide to start gunning down the criminals.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Misroi wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
As long as he doesn't get his own show.
I'm not the biggest Punisher fan on the planet, but I can see him fitting into the Netflixverse.
Yeah, considering all the corruption that got exposed at the end of Daredevil, plus the brutal gunfight and escape from custody that was stopped only by a masked hero, it makes sense that someone would decide law enforcement wasn't up to the task, and decide to start gunning down the criminals.

Exactly, RDN. Kinda like the vigilantes that Batman inspired at the beginning of The Dark Knight, with the exception that Frank is capable of defending himself against Matt in a way the vigilantes were helpless against Bruce.

"I see you got yourself a new costume, Devil. That's fine. As long as there's bad men doing bad things, New York will always need a man in black."

Liberty's Edge

Watched Daredevil a while back, loved it for obvious reasons, just getting caught up on the thread.

leo1925 wrote:

I am halfway through the series, I like it.

I have one question though, although we don't know the exact time this is taking place in the MCU, how come neither Hydra nor Shield(s) have tried '' grabbing '' him? I ask this because with his vast array of super senses, his almost mystical lie detecting abilities and his hand to hand skills that can rival a Shield specialist... Well I can't imagine him NOT being in the Index.

He explicitly kept his powers a complete secret, only started using them in public recently and even then only while in disguise.

Would SHIELD want a guy with those powers on the index? Sure. Are they aware that 'The Devil of Hell's Kitchen' has powers? Probably not. Do they have any way to connect that vigilante to Matt Murdock? Not a chance in hell. Which explains him not being on the Index yet pretty thoroughly.

So...will SHIELD be sending someone to look at The Devil of Hell's Kitchen? Maybe. Old SHIELD certainly would've given their low bar for that sort of thing, but Coulson's people have more limited resources and might need something more overt.

Rynjin wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
If a woman who got scapels surgically attached to her fingertips made it on the index
The thing is, we don't know anything about fingernails woman. We don't know if they were sugically attached, or if that's simply how her fingernails grow. It's safe to assume they can't be readily removed, as if that were the caste they would simply have done so, instead of wasting man-hours keeping tabs on her.
They specifically say she had them surgically grafted on though.
Karla Faye Gideon went on a killing spree with her razor fingers, which probably went a long way toward putting her on SHIELD's radar.
But still doesn't explain why "TUUUUUUUUBESS!!!!" was a better option than "Hey, why don't we just...remove the razors?".

I had this reaction initially, but a friend actually pointed something out to me: she installed the razors herself (which, y'know, begs the question how, but is what they said happened). Given that she did it herself and razors aren't hard to acquire...why couldn't she just do it again? This doesn't make the finger-tubes all that sensible an idea, but it does make them a little less ridiculous, since removing the razors isn't as viable if she can easily replace them.


So why not just lock her up?

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:
So why not just lock her up?

Presumably because, for whatever reason, they couldn't charge her with a crime. Or she got found innocent or something.

I'm a little unclear why she wasn't locked up myself, but there could be reasons, and assuming there were, you're left with a bit of a problem.

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