Daredevil!


Television

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I really enjoyed it. There were tiny things here and there that I might quibble about, but they didn't do anything to detract from the enjoyment of the best Marvel Comics TV show yet (and Agent Carter really set the bar high). Strong writing and good-to-amazing acting throughout, and the limited budget for TV surprisingly not posing an issue. Marvel's Feig recently spoke about re-re-casting Spider-Man as an actual teenager so they could cover many of the Parker's highschool plot & character points in the movies... screw that. Daredevil just proved that the Spider-Man re-reboot should be done in 13-episode seasons on Netflix.

However, there was a singular plot development in Daredevil that totally, infuriatingly unnecessary.

Rant!:
Killing Ben Ulrich was damn wrong and completely unnecessary, especially this early in Marvel's unfolding cinematic and television universe. I understand that it's necessary to establish/show-not-tell Kingpin's character arc into a ruthless, powerful, and vengeful antagonist. I understand how doing that by killing off a character that the audience has grown attached is very effective. But Ben Ulrich is/was a key supporting character in the Marvel universe, and like the 616-Captain America, an important character for reminding others of where the ethical lines are drawn and why they aren't to be crossed.

This wasn't a death necessary to set plot & character arcs in motion, like Ned Stark's in Game of Thrones. Yeah, Ulrich's and Page's poking around in Fisk's history was going to have serious consequences (especially for Page in Season 2), and Fisk has been established as having a very short fuse around personal life, especially his mom & Vanessa. Fisk's confrontation with Ulrich was inevitable and makes sense; however, killing him this early without any real attempts at machinations to undermine and destroy Ulrich's life, loved ones, and resources (no, not the piddly crap shooting down his stories at the newspaper) felt completely glaringly rushed and that it was done for shock value.

The Daredevil writer's killed him off way too damn early.


I Blame Cosmo for reading AS's spoiler tag...I have not got the far yet. No big deal...but you should have called 'spoilerly rant' or something.


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The show's been out for three days, not everybody's seen all of it yet. Make sure to post spoilers for exactly WHAT EPISODE you're ranting about.

Shadow Lodge

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Set wrote:
Bendis wanted to use Luke Cage as an Avenger, and following on his not having a clue what the Scarlet Witch's powers were, he didn't have much of a clue (or, more accurately, didn't care) that Luke Cage could only lift a third of what Spider-Man could.

I am not a Bendis fan, and am generally among the first to jump on his sloppy research, but in his defense (in this case), Luke Cage had actually gotten a power up long before Bendis, in his own 90s series (titled "Cage"). He got a second dosage of the serum that gave him his powers in the first place.

It was a pretty obscure comic, however, and came at a time when there was a lot of crap on the market, so I'm not surprised it isn't widely recognized.

(And Bendis probably hadn't read it either.)

Also in fairness to him, Wanda's powers are some of the least-well defined I can think of.

Shadow Lodge

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Marvel's Feig recently spoke about re-re-casting Spider-Man as an actual teenager so they could cover many of the Parker's highschool plot & character points in the movies... screw that. Daredevil just proved that the Spider-Man re-reboot should be done in 13-episode seasons on Netflix.

Speaking as a big Spidey fan, I would LOVE that. You could do more justice to some of the big-name villains (I've always hated that the best Spidey villain was rushed from creation to death in a movie that also shoved in Spidey's origin story), and you could also see some of the lower tiers of villains as well.

That said, there's a LOT more SFX needed for Spidey and his associated villains than for Daredevil and his. So it's rather unlikely.


Kthulhu wrote:
Also in fairness to him, Wanda's powers are some of the least-well defined I can think of.

True. They've been defined and re-defined by some of the best writers in comics, too. (Byrne was rejiggering them in his aborted Avengers West Coast run; Busiek tweaked them a bit during his run. I can't think of who or where it was, but somewhere between her first appearance in the Brotherhood and her subsequent appearances in Avengers, I believe they got some redefining as well.)


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Also in fairness to him, Wanda's powers are some of the least-well defined I can think of.
True. They've been defined and re-defined by some of the best writers in comics, too. (Byrne was rejiggering them in his aborted Avengers West Coast run; Busiek tweaked them a bit during his run. I can't think of who or where it was, but somewhere between her first appearance in the Brotherhood and her subsequent appearances in Avengers, I believe they got some redefining as well.)

They didn't use to be. They were about sliding the probability scale. Shifting things from 1% possibility to 100% and so on. They still had to be things that had a chance of happening to begin with even if it was a remote one.

Then someone comes along and adds demon possed chaos magic to her origns when she was an infant and other conveluted messes on top of that and next thing you know we she push the universe and make a wish.

an attitude of "We don't have to explain it if it's magic" doesn't help either.


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

I really enjoyed it. There were tiny things here and there that I might quibble about, but they didn't do anything to detract from the enjoyment of the best Marvel Comics TV show yet (and Agent Carter really set the bar high). Strong writing and good-to-amazing acting throughout, and the limited budget for TV surprisingly not posing an issue. Marvel's Feig recently spoke about re-re-casting Spider-Man as an actual teenager so they could cover many of the Parker's highschool plot & character points in the movies... screw that. Daredevil just proved that the Spider-Man re-reboot should be done in 13-episode seasons on Netflix.

However, there was a singular plot development in Daredevil that totally, infuriatingly unnecessary. ** spoiler omitted **...

I just finished up Daredevil (Should have gone to bed instead but oh well...), so I can actually read this and respond...

Episode 8-11 spoiler:

Ben Urich's death was a definite HOLY @$@! moment for me, probably one of the biggest in the show. Probably because I assumed he was safe being a major comic character. His Death was brutal and totally surprising.

Personally...I am glad they deviated, as I think his death did help the show. It provided a rallying point for Matt, Karen, and Foggy, and most importantly...it really solidified Kingpin as a horrible villain. The last few episodes before this had the Kingpin worry about his mom, see his girlfriend almost die, and saw the murder of his best friend. Going into the finale, the show needed a moment to jar the audience out of any sympathy, and raise the stakes on bringing Kingpin to justice.

As for not messing with Ulrich before hand, again the above events didn't exactly put the Kingpin in an exactly rational frame of mind, and stuff was rapidly spiraling out of control.

As for spiderman...shrugs. The expanded format of 13ish hours versions 2-3 hours is always going to provide a more rich story. BUT...I I don't think Spiderman or his major villains really could be portrayed on a Netflix budget for 13 episodes, nor do I really want a gritty Spiderman. Plus I think Spiderman is just more profitable on the big screen, since it appeals to wide age groups, and I tend to think that Netflix originals cater to an older demographic.

Now if anything deserves a Netflix series IMHO, it's Punisher. Now thats a show that would thrive in the Netflix corner of the MCU


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I think The Punisher is one of the few Marvel """"heroes"""" (imagine this as an infinite number of sarcastic air quotes because I don't have enough time to type them all) I actually hate.

Hell, you could basically plug Punisher into any of the scenes Kingpin is in (when he's getting his hands dirty) and he'd feel right at home.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:

I think The Punisher is one of the few Marvel """"heroes"""" (imagine this as an infinite number of sarcastic air quotes because I don't have enough time to type them all) I actually hate.

Same here. Fun fact: Chuck Dixon (comic writer, for those who don't know) is on record as saying that he made a big mistake when he wrote the character? That mistake was not realizing that the Punisher was in fact the villain.


Sorry everyone for failing to clearly mark the spoilery bits in that post. I hope I didn't ruin it for too many people.

MMCJawa wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Marvel's Feig recently spoke about re-re-casting Spider-Man as an actual teenager so they could cover many of the Parker's highschool plot & character points in the movies... screw that. Daredevil just proved that the Spider-Man re-reboot should be done in 13-episode seasons on Netflix.
The expanded format of 13ish hours versions 2-3 hours is always going to provide a more rich story. BUT...I I don't think Spiderman or his major villains really could be portrayed on a Netflix budget for 13 episodes, nor do I really want a gritty Spiderman. Plus I think Spiderman is just more profitable on the big screen, since it appeals to wide age groups, and I tend to think that Netflix originals cater to an older demographic.

I agree with you. I just think that if they feel they absolutely must retread Parker-as-highschooler, the TV series would be a far better fit. Personally, with Spider-Man now officially coming (partially) under the Marvel Studios umbrella, I'd much rather Parker juggling marriage to MJ, being a dad to baby Mayday, his family-supporting/wage-earning career, and his web-slinging career. I think that would be more groundbreaking than the yet-another-mopey-teenager-has-special-problems approach that Sony will take in the upcoming movies.

---

Still, I really think the Netflix format series could still work for the Spider-Man franchise. Maybe do it as a BuffytVS-style highschool setting, only center it on Araña/Spider-Anya Corazon (also incorporating the best bits of Spider-Gwen and Spidergirl-Mayday Parker), who "origins"/gains her spiderpowers in the first episodes after an incident similar to Miles or Spider-Island. Anya's best friend would be a shy boy named Angel/Andrew Jones (maybe even nephew of Jessica) who is hiding more than one secret. And then add in the new Pakistani-American kid transferring in from another school. In school, they could naturally gravitate together, being excluded by the popular/cool kids and other cliques. Outside of school, they could team up to stop newly-empowered teenagers experimented on by Oscorp and Roxxon, along with the occasional movie event tie-in and run-ins with a few habitual losers. And they could call themselves The Amazing Spider-Friends.

It keeps the Spider-franchise going and present on viewers minds between blockbusters, brings in both younger viewers and Buffy/Angel veteran fans to Netflix, introduces three more Marvel superheroines, and moichandizing!


I'd like to see them bring some of the Nocenti-era storylines and characters into the show, though I suspect the earliest that might happen is season 3, as they seem to be heavily into the Miller run. (And there is enough of his run that could last them easily into three seasons itself, frankly. Pun not intended.)

Nocenti's Daredevil was in many ways ahead of its time in terms of the themes and stories she tackled, and she is often dismissed or forgotten it seems to me, despite the fact that she is the longest running DD writer (save, maybe, for Bendis).

At the very least, I'd expect them to use Typhoid Mary at some point. But I'd really love to see Daredevil run the gauntlet of his rogues like Nocenti did in issues 259-260 of DD v. 1 That is still one of the most memorable storylines of just about any comic, to me. She did Loeb's "Hush" storyline years before he did it in Batman, and much more effectively (and it was John Romita Jr's best phase of his art career, too, IMO, and definitely gives Jim Lee's a run for its money. Lee's art being the best part of Hush, naturally.)


Cthulhudrew wrote:

I'd like to see them bring some of the Nocenti-era storylines and characters into the show, though I suspect the earliest that might happen is season 3, as they seem to be heavily into the Miller run. (And there is enough of his run that could last them easily into three seasons itself, frankly. Pun not intended.)

Nocenti's Daredevil was in many ways ahead of its time in terms of the themes and stories she tackled, and she is often dismissed or forgotten it seems to me, despite the fact that she is the longest running DD writer (save, maybe, for Bendis).

At the very least, I'd expect them to use Typhoid Mary at some point. But I'd really love to see Daredevil run the gauntlet of his rogues like Nocenti did in issues 259-260 of DD v. 1 That is still one of the most memorable storylines of just about any comic, to me. She did Loeb's "Hush" storyline years before he did it in Batman, and much more effectively (and it was John Romita Jr's best phase of his art career, too, IMO, and definitely gives Jim Lee's a run for its money. Lee's art being the best part of Hush, naturally.)

Really? I thought Nocenti's run on Daredevil was often dismissed and forgotten because it was horrible. Her political messaging was often done with sledge hammers which really detracted from her storylines. I can't stand when a writer has political axes to grind...and slams you over the head with them (even if I agree with them).

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The best Spider-Man television show is Spectacular Spider-Man any Netflix style series should just adapt that.


[Chanting]Season 2...season2...season 2[chanting]

Really love this show, hoping for another season. Pissed about

Episode 12:
Ben's death though. Was really hoping he would go on to work at the Daily Bugle since the deal has been worked out with Sony about Spidey.
Not really loving the costume at the end though. Something about the cowl doesn't look right. To everyone who loved that episode 2 fight scene, if you've never seen it, track down the original Oldboy. It's a Korean film and they very much took inspiration for the hallway fight from a scene in that movie. Even if you can't find the original, there was an American remake done last year that should be easier to find with a similar scene.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ivan Rûski wrote:

[Chanting]Season 2...season2...season 2[chanting]

Really love this show, hoping for another season. Pissed about ** spoiler omitted ** Not really loving the costume at the end though. Something about the cowl doesn't look right. To everyone who loved that episode 2 fight scene, if you've never seen it, track down the original Oldboy. It's a Korean film and they very much took inspiration for the hallway fight from a scene in that movie. Even if you can't find the original, there was an American remake done last year that should be easier to find with a similar scene.

YUP! I thought of Dae-Soo as well.

Here's the fight in question:

Oldboy Hallway Fight


MMCJawa wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

I really enjoyed it. There were tiny things here and there that I might quibble about, but they didn't do anything to detract from the enjoyment of the best Marvel Comics TV show yet (and Agent Carter really set the bar high). Strong writing and good-to-amazing acting throughout, and the limited budget for TV surprisingly not posing an issue. Marvel's Feig recently spoke about re-re-casting Spider-Man as an actual teenager so they could cover many of the Parker's highschool plot & character points in the movies... screw that. Daredevil just proved that the Spider-Man re-reboot should be done in 13-episode seasons on Netflix.

However, there was a singular plot development in Daredevil that totally, infuriatingly unnecessary. ** spoiler omitted **...

I just finished up Daredevil (Should have gone to bed instead but oh well...), so I can actually read this and respond...

** spoiler omitted **

As for spiderman...shrugs. The expanded format of 13ish hours versions 2-3 hours is always going to provide a more rich story. BUT...I I don't...

episode 11:
I think they also had to get away from that character, as he is a dying trope that is losing relevance. Young people don't read newspapers.
Grand Lodge

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Krensky wrote:

It is MCU (which is Earth-199999), but Marvel didn't want them directly linked because they're very different in scope and tone.

The also mention Banner breaking Harlem in Urich's clippings.

Pretty soon you won't have to worry about all that numbered universe garbage with the upcoming unification.

Grand Lodge

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I'm taking a real shine to this series, especially with the deconstruction of Kingpin.


LazarX wrote:
Krensky wrote:

It is MCU (which is Earth-199999), but Marvel didn't want them directly linked because they're very different in scope and tone.

The also mention Banner breaking Harlem in Urich's clippings.

Pretty soon you won't have to worry about all that numbered universe garbage with the upcoming unification.

Until they start adding new alternate universes in a couple of years.

Shadow Lodge

Evan Tarlton wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I think The Punisher is one of the few Marvel """"heroes"""" (imagine this as an infinite number of sarcastic air quotes because I don't have enough time to type them all) I actually hate.

Same here. Fun fact: Chuck Dixon (comic writer, for those who don't know) is on record as saying that he made a big mistake when he wrote the character? That mistake was not realizing that the Punisher was in fact the villain.

Yeah, I don't really buy the superheroes allowing Castle to keep doing his thing. One of them should have long ago thrown him in jail.

Shadow Lodge

Ivan Rûski wrote:

[Chanting]Season 2...season2...season 2[chanting]

Really love this show, hoping for another season. Pissed about ** spoiler omitted ** Not really loving the costume at the end though. Something about the cowl doesn't look right. To everyone who loved that episode 2 fight scene, if you've never seen it, track down the original Oldboy. It's a Korean film and they very much took inspiration for the hallway fight from a scene in that movie. Even if you can't find the original, there was an American remake done last year that should be easier to find with a similar scene.

I think both versions are on Netflix. So if you can watch Daredevil, you can watch either of the Oldboy films.

Shadow Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Krensky wrote:

It is MCU (which is Earth-199999), but Marvel didn't want them directly linked because they're very different in scope and tone.

The also mention Banner breaking Harlem in Urich's clippings.

Pretty soon you won't have to worry about all that numbered universe garbage with the upcoming unification.

Yeah, and somehow I don't see the MCU being involved in the unification. Maybe they might show a few elements of it in the comics, but for the films / shows, it is NOT gonna happen.


Kthulhu wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Krensky wrote:

It is MCU (which is Earth-199999), but Marvel didn't want them directly linked because they're very different in scope and tone.

The also mention Banner breaking Harlem in Urich's clippings.

Pretty soon you won't have to worry about all that numbered universe garbage with the upcoming unification.
Yeah, and somehow I don't see the MCU being involved in the unification. Maybe they might show a few elements of it in the comics, but for the films / shows, it is NOT gonna happen.

In Spiderman they apparently made some jokes about the movies, joking that some of them look like the actors who played them, but other than that I highly doubt they will do anything to movies.

Shadow Lodge

I meant more along the lines of pulling in concepts / characters from the MCU to the comics. Which has already happened, as the comics now have Coulson, Fitz, and Simmons.

Shadow Lodge

" nor do I really want a gritty Spiderman "

See, I think Spidey works in gritty stories just as well as he does in more fantastic stories. In the comics he's had that kind of variance as well....it's true he gets a lot more stories fighting nut jobs in spandex, but he also has had a fair number of gritty stories over the years as well. He's second only to Daredevil in being a thorn in the Kingpin's paw, and he has often been shown taking on drug dealers. In fact, a few of his most popular stories have been stuff that would be beyond TV-14 / PG-13.

Liberty's Edge

I think a gritty Spider-Man would be fantastic.

Peter's always moping about how the ones he loves paying the price for his mistakes but it actually comes up exceedingly rarely. The grittiness on Daredevil makes the stakes feel real.


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The Death of Jean DeWolfe was a pretty gritty Spider-Man story that at it's climax had Daredevil trying to stop Peter from crossing an ethical line that probably would have destroyed Peter after the fact.

And alot of people forget that both The Kingpin and The Punisher started out as Spider-Man villains before Frank Miller pretty much Co-opted them for his Daredevil run in the early eighties.

That being said I dont think that "gritty" Spider-Man should be the norm. At that point you're really talking about creating a different character. Should there be some darker stories on occasion Sure. But a Spider-Man show with the tone of the Daredevil one is something that wouldn't appeal to me at all.

Grand Lodge

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ShinHakkaider wrote:

The Death of Jean DeWolfe was a pretty gritty Spider-Man story that at it's climax had Daredevil trying to stop Peter from crossing an ethical line that probably would have destroyed Peter after the fact.

It's my personal favorite of all of the Spiderman storylines. One of the best touches about it, is that it starts with her already dead.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

About the only thing that I like about Frank Castle appearances are when he shows up to remind guys like Daredevil and Spider-Man that they aren't killers at heart and that they should leave the killing to guys like him. It's almost like that while he kind of derides them for the spandex and their morality he also wants to protect them from the their own demons.

Sovereign Court

ShinHakkaider wrote:

The Death of Jean DeWolfe was a pretty gritty Spider-Man story that at it's climax had Daredevil trying to stop Peter from crossing an ethical line that probably would have destroyed Peter after the fact.

And alot of people forget that both The Kingpin and The Punisher started out as Spider-Man villains before Frank Miller pretty much Co-opted them for his Daredevil run in the early eighties.

That being said I dont think that "gritty" Spider-Man should be the norm. At that point you're really talking about creating a different character. Should there be some darker stories on occasion Sure. But a Spider-Man show with the tone of the Daredevil one is something that wouldn't appeal to me at all.

What issues were that?


Kthulhu wrote:
Ivan Rûski wrote:

[Chanting]Season 2...season2...season 2[chanting]

Really love this show, hoping for another season. Pissed about ** spoiler omitted ** Not really loving the costume at the end though. Something about the cowl doesn't look right. To everyone who loved that episode 2 fight scene, if you've never seen it, track down the original Oldboy. It's a Korean film and they very much took inspiration for the hallway fight from a scene in that movie. Even if you can't find the original, there was an American remake done last year that should be easier to find with a similar scene.

I think both versions are on Netflix. So if you can watch Daredevil, you can watch either of the Oldboy films.

Ok, cool. Hadn't checked Netflix for them since I own both on dvd.

EDIT: Oh, and are me and MMCJawa the only ones who like the Punisher around here?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Hama wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:

The Death of Jean DeWolfe was a pretty gritty Spider-Man story that at it's climax had Daredevil trying to stop Peter from crossing an ethical line that probably would have destroyed Peter after the fact.

And alot of people forget that both The Kingpin and The Punisher started out as Spider-Man villains before Frank Miller pretty much Co-opted them for his Daredevil run in the early eighties.

That being said I dont think that "gritty" Spider-Man should be the norm. At that point you're really talking about creating a different character. Should there be some darker stories on occasion Sure. But a Spider-Man show with the tone of the Daredevil one is something that wouldn't appeal to me at all.

What issues were that?

Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man 107-110


Ivan Rûski wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Ivan Rûski wrote:

[Chanting]Season 2...season2...season 2[chanting]

Really love this show, hoping for another season. Pissed about ** spoiler omitted ** Not really loving the costume at the end though. Something about the cowl doesn't look right. To everyone who loved that episode 2 fight scene, if you've never seen it, track down the original Oldboy. It's a Korean film and they very much took inspiration for the hallway fight from a scene in that movie. Even if you can't find the original, there was an American remake done last year that should be easier to find with a similar scene.

I think both versions are on Netflix. So if you can watch Daredevil, you can watch either of the Oldboy films.

Ok, cool. Hadn't checked Netflix for them since I own both on dvd.

EDIT: Oh, and are me and MMCJawa the only ones who like the Punisher around here?

Maybe. I know Punisher's big thing is that he kills bad guys, doesn't just capture them or stop them. But I mean...within the MCU that isn't exactly a unique property. Iron Man and Thor are both pretty lethal, especially Iron Man in the first movie, who is functioning as international vigilante.

I do think Punisher works best as a contrast to characters like Daredevil or Spiderman, but I think you could make a pretty good show based around Punisher and his roaring rampage of revenge against the folks who killed his family.


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The thing is with Punisher is he doesn't just kill, he kills:

A.) As a first resort.
B.) Without remorse or questioning of his actions.
C.) In cold blood, because it would be more convenient for him.
D.) Without discrimination.

Punisher is just as likely to kill that guy whose only crime is selling some weed on the street as he is to kill an enemy combatant, just because he doesn't like the way the guy looked at him when he was done ripping his fingernails out for information.

He's just an a!#$!~# with a gun. There's nothing interesting or sympathetic about him besides his backstory. You could plug any supervillain into one of his plots and it would change NOTHING about the events or even reasoning as to why he's doing what he does.

Hell, it's BEEN DONE. There's a lot of plots (not just for comics) where some supervillain or assassin's family gets killed and he goes on a roaring rampage of revenge. Probably what Tak3n is going to be like.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MMCJawa wrote:
Ivan Rûski wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Ivan Rûski wrote:

[Chanting]Season 2...season2...season 2[chanting]

Really love this show, hoping for another season. Pissed about ** spoiler omitted ** Not really loving the costume at the end though. Something about the cowl doesn't look right. To everyone who loved that episode 2 fight scene, if you've never seen it, track down the original Oldboy. It's a Korean film and they very much took inspiration for the hallway fight from a scene in that movie. Even if you can't find the original, there was an American remake done last year that should be easier to find with a similar scene.

I think both versions are on Netflix. So if you can watch Daredevil, you can watch either of the Oldboy films.

Ok, cool. Hadn't checked Netflix for them since I own both on dvd.

EDIT: Oh, and are me and MMCJawa the only ones who like the Punisher around here?

Maybe. I know Punisher's big thing is that he kills bad guys, doesn't just capture them or stop them. But I mean...within the MCU that isn't exactly a unique property. Iron Man and Thor are both pretty lethal, especially Iron Man in the first movie, who is functioning as international vigilante.

I do think Punisher works best as a contrast to characters like Daredevil or Spiderman, but I think you could make a pretty good show based around Punisher and his roaring rampage of revenge against the folks who killed his family.

Let's not mince words, Frank Castle is a PSYCHOPATH and a SERIAL KILLER. He just kills criminals. There's nothing appealing or sympathetic to me about him as a character, to me anyway.

The difference between Iron Man and Frank is this: Iron Man is intending to STOP those soldiers from murdering civilians. If some get killed in the process? It's not an entirely desirable outcome but for Tony as long as the civilians are safe...

Frank's sole intent is to MURDER those soldiers. Yes saving the hostages is an acceptable byproduct but the main goal is to KILL those wrong doers. BECAUSE...KILLING.

That's a BIG difference.

I mean if you want to go there Captain America was a soldier during WWII. He's killed the hell out of some nazis. But as Captain America in the present he's not going to gun down EVERY DRUG DEALER in the joint or decapitate them with the edge of his shield because...you know...MURDER.
Has Cap had to kill in the present? Yup. But usually when the choice is "if I dont stop these terrorists before they set off this bomb that will kill hundreds..." and in those cases if his shield knocks a terrorist from the top of a moving train to the ground 60 feet below...


considering the deal with Marvel, I wonder if they will use Kingpin for some of the new Spider-man movies? I'm only up to episode 6 of Daredevil but this guy is doing a great job in the role. Would love to see him deal with a wise-cracking Spidey


ShinHakkaider wrote:
Frank's sole intent is to MURDER those soldiers. Yes saving the hostages is an acceptable byproduct but the main goal is to KILL those wrong doers BECAUSE...KILLING

Frank's main goal may be killing, but not because murder, but because they were killing innocents. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

Anyone else notice

finale:
Stilt-Man's legs in Melvin's shop?


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You're defending a character who beat the s$$$ out of Santa Claus. Just saying.

Sovereign Court

Someone had to.


Hama wrote:
Someone had to.

That's why you have Lobo.


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Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Hama wrote:
Someone had to.
That's why you have Lobo.

before or after they killed the main man and replaced him with a chipen'dale's dancer


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ivan Rûski wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Frank's sole intent is to MURDER those soldiers. Yes saving the hostages is an acceptable byproduct but the main goal is to KILL those wrong doers BECAUSE...KILLING

Frank's main goal may be killing, but not because murder, but because they were killing innocents. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

Anyone else notice ** spoiler omitted **

Yes, for Frank it's an excuse TO murder. It's what he chooses to do. But in the end youre absolutely right lets just agree to disagree. Just to clarify, I'm not saying that there hasn't been good stories centered around Frank Castle. Some of Garth Ennis' work on The Punisher is great, especially the BORN mini-series.


Greylurker wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Hama wrote:
Someone had to.
That's why you have Lobo.
before or after they killed the main man and replaced him with a chipen'dale's dancer

the 90s wrestler motif had to go.

Liberty's Edge

I think the Laundry Day short film made a bit back sums up Castle best.

He doesn't care about protecting the weak or innocent. He just wants punish the wicked.


Greylurker wrote:
considering the deal with Marvel, I wonder if they will use Kingpin for some of the new Spider-man movies? I'm only up to episode 6 of Daredevil but this guy is doing a great job in the role. Would love to see him deal with a wise-cracking Spidey

The actor has made statements that their are "plans" that extend beyond Netflix for the character, but how solid those plans are I have no clue, nor in what form they will take.

At any rate, I don't think we will see much more of him before Daredevil Season 2.

Liberty's Edge

Since we don't know the plot of Luke Cage, Iron Fist or the Defenders we might see him sooner than an unannounced (or even rumored) season 2.


Freehold DM wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Hama wrote:
Someone had to.
That's why you have Lobo.
before or after they killed the main man and replaced him with a chipen'dale's dancer
the 90s wrestler motif had to go.

Obviously they should have made him a modern wrestler. They have superpowers too.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:

The thing is with Punisher is he doesn't just kill, he kills:

A.) As a first resort.
B.) Without remorse or questioning of his actions.
C.) In cold blood, because it would be more convenient for him.
D.) Without discrimination.

Punisher is just as likely to kill that guy whose only crime is selling some weed on the street as he is to kill an enemy combatant, just because he doesn't like the way the guy looked at him when he was done ripping his fingernails out for information.

He's just an a$$+$%# with a gun. There's nothing interesting or sympathetic about him besides his backstory. You could plug any supervillain into one of his plots and it would change NOTHING about the events or even reasoning as to why he's doing what he does.

Hell, it's BEEN DONE. There's a lot of plots (not just for comics) where some supervillain or assassin's family gets killed and he goes on a roaring rampage of revenge. Probably what Tak3n is going to be like.

The orignial incarnation of Punisher was pretty much unplayable in the Marvel Superheros RPG, because killing anyone meant loss of all Karma. He's been somewhat toned down since then, but everyone else has gotten more violent.


Krensky wrote:
Since we don't know the plot of Luke Cage, Iron Fist or the Defenders we might see him sooner than an unannounced (or even rumored) season 2.

Maybe, although I think he won't be the big bad in any of those other shows. We know for instance that the Purple Man will be taking that role in Jessica Jones.

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