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Awesome can't wait for season 2. I like what they are doing with the Punisher.

Dark Archive

Season 2 promotional stills

Dark Archive

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phantom1592 wrote:

I have long hated punisher. I really hate all the murdering 'anti-heroes' who are really little better then criminals themselves. It's just not my brand of hero.

THAT said... the only time I really can stomach him is when he guest stars in a DD book and it's just an epic clash of ideologies with Matt going out of his way to save criminals FROM Frank. That makes for some epic storytelling.

This season looks like it's going to be pretty awesome.

Except for Elektra... She's annoying too. Not sure what role SHE'S going to play yet...

I was never a fan of The Punisher.

Is the character compelling? There are times he could be.

Was the writing good? Sure, there were a few good story arcs.

But I never could get behind the comic book character.

Elektra however ... Bring it on!

Dark Archive

Krensky wrote:

Well, Frank seems pretty solidly the antagonist in this, with nary a whiff another one.

Elektra seems to be posed as a seperate, third side of the morality question. Less heroic than Murdock, but nowhere near as villainous as Frank. Probably something similar to Huntress first appearance in Arrow.

More of here in two weeks. She will probably be from one of the secret organizations that dot Daredevil's landscape.


I only liked Elektra in the original miller run. She really is over-used since then.

And they KEEP pushing this supposed romance between them.

Elektra is not meant to be a love interest for Matt. She WAS a love interest... but they aren't anymore. They are not compatible anymore. She took a dark road and he took a light one. When he looks at her, he sees who she should have been... and feel sad/guilt.

His #1 rule in life... is that he doesn't kill. He believes in the system and makes it work. She is an assassin. On a bad day, she works for kingpin and kills whoever he points at.... on the best of days, she kills the bad guys for a decent cause... but she's still everything he believes against.

It is really weird to put her AND Punisher in the same season for him to deal with... but yeah, I really wish they had kept her dead when Bullseye killed her.


I suspect that they want to lay a lot of groundwork for Elektra this season, since I would guess they will probably adapt the plotline where Bullseye kills her next season.


She is an assassin and likely be working for Fisk, or his associates. Maybe Punisher kills her?


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Second season 2 trailer with Elektra in action

And they've just announced who will be playing Iron Fist.

Sovereign Court

Abed Nadir wrote:

Second season 2 trailer with Elektra in action

And they've just announced who will be playing Iron Fist.

Why him? WHY

Paizo Employee Developer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Hama wrote:
Abed Nadir wrote:

Second season 2 trailer with Elektra in action

And they've just announced who will be playing Iron Fist.

Why him? WHY

I'm so much more excited about the Elektra/Hand aspects of Season 2 than I am the Punisher stuff.

As for Danny Rand, I am conflicted on whether they should have gone with an Asian actor. Part of me thinks this was the perfect time for more diversity, but I also think there's a lot to the character that would be lost if he were changed from the silver spoon white guy who befriends the Harlem ex-con (Luke Cage) that made the Power Man and Iron Fist stuff from the 70s so great. I also read a really compelling argument from an Asian actor who said that making the first Asian lead in the MCU the martial arts guy was just perpetrating a stereotype as to what roles Asians can play. So I think Marvel had no right way to handle the casting of this role without someone screaming appropriation or tokenism.


phantom1592 wrote:

I only liked Elektra in the original miller run. She really is over-used since then.

And they KEEP pushing this supposed romance between them.

Elektra is not meant to be a love interest for Matt. She WAS a love interest... but they aren't anymore. They are not compatible anymore. She took a dark road and he took a light one. When he looks at her, he sees who she should have been... and feel sad/guilt.

His #1 rule in life... is that he doesn't kill. He believes in the system and makes it work. She is an assassin. On a bad day, she works for kingpin and kills whoever he points at.... on the best of days, she kills the bad guys for a decent cause... but she's still everything he believes against.

It is really weird to put her AND Punisher in the same season for him to deal with... but yeah, I really wish they had kept her dead when Bullseye killed her.

Honestly, I like that dynamic. Just because she has different morals from him doesn't mean their feelings for eachother magically disappear. Just because they know they don't work doesn't mean that they don't wish they could.


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Mark Moreland wrote:
I'm so much more excited about the Elektra/Hand aspects of Season 2 than I am the Punisher stuff.

We are of one mind in this!

Mark Moreland wrote:
As for Danny Rand, I am conflicted on whether they should have gone with an Asian actor. Part of me thinks this was the perfect time for more diversity, but I also think there's a lot to the character that would be lost if he were changed from the silver spoon white guy who befriends the Harlem ex-con (Luke Cage) that made the Power Man and Iron Fist stuff from the 70s so great. I also read a really compelling argument from an Asian actor who said that making the first Asian lead in the MCU the martial arts guy was just perpetrating a stereotype as to what roles Asians can play. So I think Marvel had no right way to handle the casting of this role without someone screaming appropriation or tokenism.

I'm pretty sure I've read that same article. Then again, I've read articles from PoC that take a different view. This is where I stand. I completely agree that his relationships would be altered if he wasn't white, but I think it's contingent upon the producers to actually go there. If they don't, it might have been better to cast an Asian actor because honestly, the MCU has a diversity problem. It's weird. In the comics, it's DC that has a problem, but the DCCU is doing much better in that regard (ethnically diverse team movie coming out this summer, Wonder Woman next year).


Mark Moreland wrote:
Hama wrote:
Abed Nadir wrote:

Second season 2 trailer with Elektra in action

And they've just announced who will be playing Iron Fist.

Why him? WHY

I'm so much more excited about the Elektra/Hand aspects of Season 2 than I am the Punisher stuff.

As for Danny Rand, I am conflicted on whether they should have gone with an Asian actor. Part of me thinks this was the perfect time for more diversity, but I also think there's a lot to the character that would be lost if he were changed from the silver spoon white guy who befriends the Harlem ex-con (Luke Cage) that made the Power Man and Iron Fist stuff from the 70s so great. I also read a really compelling argument from an Asian actor who said that making the first Asian lead in the MCU the martial arts guy was just perpetrating a stereotype as to what roles Asians can play. So I think Marvel had no right way to handle the casting of this role without someone screaming appropriation or tokenism.

agreed. There is no right way.

Especially since marvel painted itself into a corner with Shang Chi and Cat.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Moreland wrote:
Hama wrote:
Abed Nadir wrote:

Second season 2 trailer with Elektra in action

And they've just announced who will be playing Iron Fist.

Why him? WHY

I'm so much more excited about the Elektra/Hand aspects of Season 2 than I am the Punisher stuff.

As for Danny Rand, I am conflicted on whether they should have gone with an Asian actor. Part of me thinks this was the perfect time for more diversity, but I also think there's a lot to the character that would be lost if he were changed from the silver spoon white guy who befriends the Harlem ex-con (Luke Cage) that made the Power Man and Iron Fist stuff from the 70s so great. I also read a really compelling argument from an Asian actor who said that making the first Asian lead in the MCU the martial arts guy was just perpetrating a stereotype as to what roles Asians can play. So I think Marvel had no right way to handle the casting of this role without someone screaming appropriation or tokenism.

It would also render a lot of Rand's backstory and personal conflicts moot or nonsensical. Remember that part of his character conflict comes from his fellow students and especially his master's son not accepting him as the inheritor of the Iron Fist.

Plus it should still be plenty diverse with Misty Knight and Colleen Wing and they already name dropped Angela del Toro. Besides, if you want to do the asian kung-fu master hero, why not start with Shang-Chi rather than changing Daniel Rand?


Evan Tarlton wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
I'm so much more excited about the Elektra/Hand aspects of Season 2 than I am the Punisher stuff.

We are of one mind in this!

Mark Moreland wrote:
As for Danny Rand, I am conflicted on whether they should have gone with an Asian actor. Part of me thinks this was the perfect time for more diversity, but I also think there's a lot to the character that would be lost if he were changed from the silver spoon white guy who befriends the Harlem ex-con (Luke Cage) that made the Power Man and Iron Fist stuff from the 70s so great. I also read a really compelling argument from an Asian actor who said that making the first Asian lead in the MCU the martial arts guy was just perpetrating a stereotype as to what roles Asians can play. So I think Marvel had no right way to handle the casting of this role without someone screaming appropriation or tokenism.
I'm pretty sure I've read that same article. Then again, I've read articles from PoC that take a different view. This is where I stand. I completely agree that his relationships would be altered if he wasn't white, but I think it's contingent upon the producers to actually go there. If they don't, it might have been better to cast an Asian actor because honestly, the MCU has a diversity problem. It's weird. In the comics, it's DC that has a problem, but the DCCU is doing much better in that regard (ethnically diverse team movie coming out this summer, Wonder Woman next year).

hnn.


Caineach wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:

I only liked Elektra in the original miller run. She really is over-used since then.

And they KEEP pushing this supposed romance between them.

Elektra is not meant to be a love interest for Matt. She WAS a love interest... but they aren't anymore. They are not compatible anymore. She took a dark road and he took a light one. When he looks at her, he sees who she should have been... and feel sad/guilt.

His #1 rule in life... is that he doesn't kill. He believes in the system and makes it work. She is an assassin. On a bad day, she works for kingpin and kills whoever he points at.... on the best of days, she kills the bad guys for a decent cause... but she's still everything he believes against.

It is really weird to put her AND Punisher in the same season for him to deal with... but yeah, I really wish they had kept her dead when Bullseye killed her.

Honestly, I like that dynamic. Just because she has different morals from him doesn't mean their feelings for eachother magically disappear. Just because they know they don't work doesn't mean that they don't wish they could.

Not sure I believe that.

People fall 'out of love' for a whole lot less. Few people 'actually' stick with their first girlfriend/high school/college sweetheart. They drift, they change, they become different people. That's what happened here. College Matt and Elektra got along great... Lawyer Matt and Assassin Elektra should be bitter/disappointed enemies.

'Seeing' her gut a man with a sai, would/should be such a shock that he's pretty much disgusted with her. The constant pushing of them together DESPITE the polar opposites of their moral code, makes as much sense as Castle and Murdock getting together for a poker game and a beer inbetween shooting at each other.

In fact as she kills for money and Castle kills for principles... He really would get along BETTER with Frank then Elektra...


Krensky wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Hama wrote:
Abed Nadir wrote:

Second season 2 trailer with Elektra in action

And they've just announced who will be playing Iron Fist.

Why him? WHY

I'm so much more excited about the Elektra/Hand aspects of Season 2 than I am the Punisher stuff.

As for Danny Rand, I am conflicted on whether they should have gone with an Asian actor. Part of me thinks this was the perfect time for more diversity, but I also think there's a lot to the character that would be lost if he were changed from the silver spoon white guy who befriends the Harlem ex-con (Luke Cage) that made the Power Man and Iron Fist stuff from the 70s so great. I also read a really compelling argument from an Asian actor who said that making the first Asian lead in the MCU the martial arts guy was just perpetrating a stereotype as to what roles Asians can play. So I think Marvel had no right way to handle the casting of this role without someone screaming appropriation or tokenism.

It would also render a lot of Rand's backstory and personal conflicts moot or nonsensical. Remember that part of his character conflict comes from his fellow students and especially his master's son not accepting him as the inheritor of the Iron Fist.

Plus it should still be plenty diverse with Misty Knight and Colleen Wing and they already name dropped Angela del Toro. Besides, if you want to do the asian kung-fu master hero, why not start with Shang-Chi rather than changing Daniel Rand?

This.

There is nothing about the Iron Fist story that indicates he 'should' be Asian, except that he does martial arts. Claiming that means he SHOULD be Asian because he does martial arts... is extremely racist.

Iron Fist is always the 'fish out of water' story. He didn't fit in Kun-Lun... and the man he became doesn't fit in New York. That's one of his cores.

His 'success' was a point of anger for others that he beat who were 'born' to the culture.

Bruce Lee was HUGE into sharing his culture with anyone who wanted to learn. This idea of 'martial arts is only for Asians' is insane. Just look at all the Chuck Norris/Seagal/Van Damme's out there that became huge stars.

Frankly, Iron Fist has always been one of the MOST diverse characters out there. I may be wrong here... but wasn't his and Misty's relationship one of the first main bi-racial steady hook ups? Collen wing is an Asian. His best buddy is black.

Iron Fist was always ground breaking even WITH a blonde white guy in the mask.


phantom1592 wrote:
Caineach wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:

I only liked Elektra in the original miller run. She really is over-used since then.

And they KEEP pushing this supposed romance between them.

Elektra is not meant to be a love interest for Matt. She WAS a love interest... but they aren't anymore. They are not compatible anymore. She took a dark road and he took a light one. When he looks at her, he sees who she should have been... and feel sad/guilt.

His #1 rule in life... is that he doesn't kill. He believes in the system and makes it work. She is an assassin. On a bad day, she works for kingpin and kills whoever he points at.... on the best of days, she kills the bad guys for a decent cause... but she's still everything he believes against.

It is really weird to put her AND Punisher in the same season for him to deal with... but yeah, I really wish they had kept her dead when Bullseye killed her.

Honestly, I like that dynamic. Just because she has different morals from him doesn't mean their feelings for eachother magically disappear. Just because they know they don't work doesn't mean that they don't wish they could.

Not sure I believe that.

People fall 'out of love' for a whole lot less. Few people 'actually' stick with their first girlfriend/high school/college sweetheart. They drift, they change, they become different people. That's what happened here. College Matt and Elektra got along great... Lawyer Matt and Assassin Elektra should be bitter/disappointed enemies.

'Seeing' her gut a man with a sai, would/should be such a shock that he's pretty much disgusted with her. The constant pushing of them together DESPITE the polar opposites of their moral code, makes as much sense as Castle and Murdock getting together for a poker game and a beer inbetween shooting at each other.

In fact as she kills for money and Castle kills for principles... He really would get along BETTER with Frank then Elektra...

I disagree. Just because their morals are in opposition doesn't mean their hearts are. Yes, people fall in and out of love for lesser reasons. But people who seem completely incompatible also stay in love and together for reasons often incomprehensible to the outside.

Matt, in particular, is someone who always wants to see the best in people and see their ability to reform. Why would he be different just because he loved the person?

Liberty's Edge

Even beter choice for an Asian main character for the MCU would be Amadeus Cho, but that probably depends on when Ruffalo or Downey are done.


Krensky wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Hama wrote:
Abed Nadir wrote:

Second season 2 trailer with Elektra in action

And they've just announced who will be playing Iron Fist.

Why him? WHY

I'm so much more excited about the Elektra/Hand aspects of Season 2 than I am the Punisher stuff.

As for Danny Rand, I am conflicted on whether they should have gone with an Asian actor. Part of me thinks this was the perfect time for more diversity, but I also think there's a lot to the character that would be lost if he were changed from the silver spoon white guy who befriends the Harlem ex-con (Luke Cage) that made the Power Man and Iron Fist stuff from the 70s so great. I also read a really compelling argument from an Asian actor who said that making the first Asian lead in the MCU the martial arts guy was just perpetrating a stereotype as to what roles Asians can play. So I think Marvel had no right way to handle the casting of this role without someone screaming appropriation or tokenism.

It would also render a lot of Rand's backstory and personal conflicts moot or nonsensical. Remember that part of his character conflict comes from his fellow students and especially his master's son not accepting him as the inheritor of the Iron Fist.

Plus it should still be plenty diverse with Misty Knight and Colleen Wing and they already name dropped Angela del Toro. Besides, if you want to do the asian kung-fu master hero, why not start with Shang-Chi rather than changing Daniel Rand?

OTOH, the conflicts really could be essentially the same if he was Asian, but not from K'un Lun. Or even not Chinese (or even Tibetan). Plenty of ethnic conflict within Asia and if I recall correctly the people of K'un Lun aren't actually human.


The conflict with his fellow students very well could be (were he Korean, he would likely not be very popular in Tibet or wherever K'un Lun is), but I'm not sure if the conflict "back home" could be, exactly.

You lose just enough to make it feel a bit more awkward and forced, mostly BECAUSE of the "Asians are all martial artists and spiritual and exotic" stereotype. Why would he not fit right in back at home? It would "feel weird" to the average viewer that his Asian family wouldn't simply accept his conversion from pampered elite to disciplined, compassionate martial artist. Even if they were clearly depicted as "Westernized", and proud of it.

Besides which, IMO casting should always be kept as close as possible to the original source material, unless it would change absolutely nothing about the character or his motivations, and then it just entirely comes down to talent.

Making Johnny Storm black (and not the rest of his family) constitutes a minor character change (he is now adopted, with all the baggage that entails).

Making Joe West black changes...what? Nothing that I know of. And we got a good actor out of the deal. Of course we're also stuck with Iris' actress but I'm pretty sure her white equivalent would have been functionally identical, since I'm half-convinced the CW pulls its actresses out of a closet somewhere and stores them there when they're not on set.

Likewise, making Rand Asian changes at least a little bit of his core character, so it's not a good choice unless for some reason there was an Asian actor who absolutely BLEW AWAY the rest of the auditions, enough to gamble on the character change to let that talent carry the piece.

Whitewashing is certainly bad, but the opposite really shouldn't be done either in my opinion.

Books kinda get a pass since detailed character descriptions are relatively rare, and usually mum about skin color especially, but visual mediums come with more expectations.


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phantom1592 wrote:

This.

There is nothing about the Iron Fist story that indicates he 'should' be Asian, except that he does martial arts. Claiming that means he SHOULD be Asian because he does martial arts... is extremely racist.

Iron Fist is always the 'fish out of water' story. He didn't fit in Kun-Lun... and the man he became doesn't fit in New York. That's one of his cores.

His...

You're absolutely correct to say that Iron Fist has always been groundbreaking. The problem is that what was groundbreaking forty years ago isn't necessarily groundbreaking today. The Mighty Whitey trope is quite racist, and it is a part of the character. Was it well handled in the day? Yes, and that's kind of a miracle. What did it was his relationships with Misty (a black woman), Luke (a black man), and Colleen (a biracial woman), which as Mark pointed out were informed by Danny's circumstances as opposed to theirs, especially his relationship with Luke.

Should that be replicated verbatim now? I'm not so sure. If the show actually goes into that dynamic when the time comes (and given their track record of using social issues, I think there is a good chance they will), then that's one thing. If it turns out that they don't, then they ignore what made those relationships so compelling in the first place, and they should have taken the opportunity to be groundbreaking again, and ditch the MW angle.

Liberty's Edge

Point of order... While the recent FF4 movie was craptacular, they did change the Storm family in it. Sue is the adopted one.

Liberty's Edge

And again, Amadeus Cho is a better choice to go first as an Asian main character than Shang-Chi or ethnically switched Danny Rand.


Ah, assumed it was the other way around, since I never bothered to see it.

Actually an example where a full "racelift" would have been better then. Why the added extra baggage? Plenty of talented black actresses who could play Sue Storm.

...Of course from everything I've heard from everyone who's seen it, that's nitpicking of the highest order compared to the enormous flaws the film has that eclipse that minor gripe.

Liberty's Edge

They also made Ben Grimm the dumb one, again and white washed him too.

As for Sue, maybe they didn't want an interracial couple, or maybe they wanted another check box or two since she's an Albanian refugee from Kosovo.


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Sundakan wrote:
Actually an example where a full "racelift" would have been better then. Why the added extra baggage? Plenty of talented black actresses who could play Sue Storm.

Agreed.

ETA:

Krensky wrote:

They also made Ben Grimm the dumb one, again and white washed him too.

As for Sue, maybe they didn't want an interracial couple, or maybe they wanted another check box or two since she's an Albanian refugee from Kosovo.

Re. Ben: I'm really getting sick of that. Ben wears his working class origins with pride, and he is quite intelligent. Neither detracts from the other in the least. In fact, the Storms are quite intelligent as well, it's just that they and Ben are constantly with one of the most intelligent people on the planet, so their brains are typically overshadowed unless Reed isn't in the picture for some reason. I didn't see the movie. What do you mean by whitewashing him? He was always white. Ashkenazai Jewish, to be precise, as he was based on Jack Kirby.

Re. Sue: Probably the former. Making Sue an adopted refugee is, to my mind, potentially quite interesting. The FF are the First Family of Marvel, so delving into family dynamics would be great if done well. Am I correct in assuming that they didn't do anything with it at all?


Krensky wrote:

They also made Ben Grimm the dumb one, again and white washed him too.

As for Sue, maybe they didn't want an interracial couple, or maybe they wanted another check box or two since she's an Albanian refugee from Kosovo.

Making him the dumb one was a bad move for sure, but wasn't he ALWAYS a white guy?

I did find a few images that made him look kinda Hispanic but that seems a more recent thing. I thought his whole schtick was that he was the "All American" one of the bunch (white, college quarterback, Air Force pilot, AND sciency type. The full package!).

I remember my main issue with that casting is that Jamie Bell was way too SMALL to play Ben Grimm (I don't buy him as any sort of military and definitely not a football player). Though looking at him he would have made a solid Johnny with even a slight bit of bulking up.


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I do know that Fan4astic was based off of the Ultimate Comics versions of the characters, and I'm not too familiar with them. If they were based off of the 616 (ie. mainstream continuity) versions, then Jamie Bell is not only too small to be Ben, but too young. In fact, Kate Mara is technically the only actor of the bunch to be in the correct age range, as Reed and Ben were definitively older and Johnny still a teenager when they got their powers.

Liberty's Edge

I was referring to removing his Jewishness.

Bit yes, Ben Grimm went to an Ivy League school, has multiple graduate degrees in engineering, was a test pilot, and an astronaut.

Outside the Marvel Universe he'd be one of the smartest men in any room.


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Krensky wrote:
I was referring to removing his Jewishness.

They did that? They really did that?

My unvarnished response would probably get this comment deleted, so I shall say no more.

Liberty's Edge

Removed may not be the right term... ignored may be closer.


Krensky wrote:
And again, Amadeus Cho is a better choice to go first as an Asian main character than Shang-Chi or ethnically switched Danny Rand.

Why?

I mean, I hate the idea of race switching Danny... but what's with the Amadeus love? I've never seen much interesting about him.

Isn't his 'pre-hulk' super-power 'Being Really smart'? That's not a particularly exciting or cinematic power set there... Especially as a 'main character' like you said...

Smart guy background character I could see... but how would you make a show based around 'really smart'?


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phantom1592 wrote:
Krensky wrote:
And again, Amadeus Cho is a better choice to go first as an Asian main character than Shang-Chi or ethnically switched Danny Rand.

Why?

I mean, I hate the idea of race switching Danny... but what's with the Amadeus love? I've never seen much interesting about him.

Isn't his 'pre-hulk' super-power 'Being Really smart'? That's not a particularly exciting or cinematic power set there... Especially as a 'main character' like you said...

Smart guy background character I could see... but how would you make a show based around 'really smart'?

The run where he got the love had him partnered with Hercules. Clearly, Herc would have to be on the show, to provide a foil. The superpowered, drunken, gluttonous, brawling horndog... who has lived for millennia, seen more than most mortals can comprehend, and has many lessons to teach a youth who's as angry as he is brilliant. Can you say "Professor H?"

(And Herc is pansexual, dammit! Most of his relatives are shapeshifters! It's not the body, it's the person!)

Liberty's Edge

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Sherlock Holmes' super power is being really smart (and cocaine).

Marvel (and DC) have a shortage of Asain main characters, especially heroes.

Cho is smart, can fight, and can Sling a quip. He's built power armor, been a god, and dated a gorgon.

A competent set of writers could do a lot with him in a short series or movie.

However, he would probably be best brought in to replace Tony or Bruce.


He's also really annoying. Seriously. What Hercules did for the character, totally awesome hulk is undoing. At least last time I read it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Not safe for work because of language but kind of relevant because of the conversation about Danny Rand's casting.

Whitewashing in Hollywood

Not only incredibly accurate but as a fan of film I know it was just a SMALL sampling of how many times it was done. I re-watched William Wyler's BEN-HUR recently and noticed that the actor who plays sheik who befriends Judah later on in the film is actually a Welshman in "brownface".


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ShinHakkaider wrote:

Not safe for work because of language but kind of relevant because of the conversation about Danny Rand's casting.

Whitewashing in Hollywood

Not only incredibly accurate but as a fan of film I know it was just a SMALL sampling of how many times it was done. I re-watched William Wyler's BEN-HUR recently and noticed that the actor who plays sheik who befriends Judah later on in the film is actually a Welshman in "brownface".

I had a hard time taking it seriously. The whole rant about Tom Cruise being the 'Last Samuraii'??? Ken Watanabe was the Last Samuraii. Tom Cruise was the drunk American captain who learned something from the Japanese man. It was the exact OPPOSITE of whatever point this guy was trying to make. I think he should actually WATCH some of these movies before criticizing them.

And again, Every criticism about Last Airbender changing the fictional 'non-descriptive' race applies equally if not more to the changing of Danny Rand from white to Asian.

There is no justification for that change at all. Where were all these people who wanted Matt Murdock to be Latino or Luke Cage to be a woman... It's the same thing. An unjustified change just for the sake of saying somethings changed.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
Whitewashing in Hollywood

I'm sorry, but YOU CAN'T WHITEWASH DANNY RAND. HE'S BEEN WHITE SINCE HIS FIRST G%!##$N APPEARANCE.

The Social Justice Warriors need to back the hell off when they start saying that it's racist to make a white character white. It's utterly g+~@+$n ridiculous.

Being white is actually a key component of the character. There's the whole fish out of water thing in K'un-L'un....but there's also the dynamic with Power Man / Luke Cage, where they become inseparable best friends dispute the disparity of their backgrounds.

Liberty's Edge

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phantom1592 wrote:
I had a hard time taking it seriously. The whole rant about Tom Cruise being the 'Last Samuraii'??? Ken Watanabe was the Last Samuraii. Tom Cruise was the drunk American captain who learned something from the Japanese man.

Ummm... there was that bit where all the samurai except Tom Cruise's character died.

Is there some confusion on the meaning of the word 'last' here?


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phantom1592 wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:

Not safe for work because of language but kind of relevant because of the conversation about Danny Rand's casting.

Whitewashing in Hollywood

Not only incredibly accurate but as a fan of film I know it was just a SMALL sampling of how many times it was done. I re-watched William Wyler's BEN-HUR recently and noticed that the actor who plays sheik who befriends Judah later on in the film is actually a Welshman in "brownface".

I had a hard time taking it seriously. The whole rant about Tom Cruise being the 'Last Samuraii'??? Ken Watanabe was the Last Samuraii. Tom Cruise was the drunk American captain who learned something from the Japanese man. It was the exact OPPOSITE of whatever point this guy was trying to make. I think he should actually WATCH some of these movies before criticizing them.

And again, Every criticism about Last Airbender changing the fictional 'non-descriptive' race applies equally if not more to the changing of Danny Rand from white to Asian.

There is no justification for that change at all. Where were all these people who wanted Matt Murdock to be Latino or Luke Cage to be a woman... It's the same thing. An unjustified change just for the sake of saying somethings changed.

The point, with Tom Cruise in the Last Samurai, is that the movie is about Japanese people and their culture, but to "make it sell" (and by that we mean sell it to studio exec's who think PoC don't sell movies) it has to have a white character in it.

Race-swapping to white wouldn't matter as much if PoC had better representation in the industry. For example, every black woman who has been nominated for an Oscar was nominated for a role in which she was either poor, uneducated, or both. In fact, almost all of them have been roles as slaves, except for The Help, which was a poor black woman who served as a cook in the Jim Crow south (basically, slavery without the legal status).

It isn't even about the specific examples, but rather the specific examples are emblematic of a broader problem.


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Norman Osborne wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Whitewashing in Hollywood

I'm sorry, but YOU CAN'T WHITEWASH DANNY RAND. HE'S BEEN WHITE SINCE HIS FIRST G#*$$+N APPEARANCE.

The Social Justice Warriors need to back the hell off when they start saying that it's racist to make a white character white. It's utterly g~#@%+n ridiculous.

Being white is actually a key component of the character. There's the whole fish out of water thing in K'un-L'un....but there's also the dynamic with Power Man / Luke Cage, where they become inseparable best friends dispute the disparity of their backgrounds.

Do you get this mad when they gave Sean Connery the role of Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramírez?

Cause Connery certainly doesn't look Egyptian, nor does he sound Spanish. Not being Scottish is actually pretty central to his character.


Irontruth wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Whitewashing in Hollywood

I'm sorry, but YOU CAN'T WHITEWASH DANNY RAND. HE'S BEEN WHITE SINCE HIS FIRST G#*$$+N APPEARANCE.

The Social Justice Warriors need to back the hell off when they start saying that it's racist to make a white character white. It's utterly g~#@%+n ridiculous.

Being white is actually a key component of the character. There's the whole fish out of water thing in K'un-L'un....but there's also the dynamic with Power Man / Luke Cage, where they become inseparable best friends dispute the disparity of their backgrounds.

Do you get this mad when they gave Sean Connery the role of Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramírez?

Cause Connery certainly doesn't look Egyptian, nor does he sound Spanish. Not being Scottish is actually pretty central to his character.

Nope... but I did get annoyed when he was a Russian sub captain...

I have a theory about Highlander. I believe the casting was twisted up on that show on purpose. You had a Scottish man playing an Egyptian/Spaniard (Though living in Scotland) and a Frenchman playing a Scot.

It all boils down to the line in the police station.

"You talk funny... where you from?"

"Lots of places..."

After a couple hundred years and traveling around from place to place... their accents SHOULDN'T have been static. Truthfully, it was probably because the director liked Lambert and Connery is awesome in everything... but that's my own fan theory for that ;)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Irontruth wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Whitewashing in Hollywood

I'm sorry, but YOU CAN'T WHITEWASH DANNY RAND. HE'S BEEN WHITE SINCE HIS FIRST G#*$$+N APPEARANCE.

The Social Justice Warriors need to back the hell off when they start saying that it's racist to make a white character white. It's utterly g~#@%+n ridiculous.

Being white is actually a key component of the character. There's the whole fish out of water thing in K'un-L'un....but there's also the dynamic with Power Man / Luke Cage, where they become inseparable best friends dispute the disparity of their backgrounds.

Do you get this mad when they gave Sean Connery the role of Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramírez?

Cause Connery certainly doesn't look Egyptian, nor does he sound Spanish. Not being Scottish is actually pretty central to his character.

I've gotten many a chuckle from this, so no, it doesn't make me mad.

"So where is he from again?"

"Spain, can't you tell by the clothes?"

"But what's with the Scottish accent?"

"Well, he's originally from Egypt, so..."

"HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE?"

"Did I mention he fights with a katana?"

"..."


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Norman Osborne wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Whitewashing in Hollywood

I'm sorry, but YOU CAN'T WHITEWASH DANNY RAND. HE'S BEEN WHITE SINCE HIS FIRST G+$%~!N APPEARANCE.

The Social Justice Warriors need to back the hell off when they start saying that it's racist to make a white character white. It's utterly g*#@&#n ridiculous.

Being white is actually a key component of the character. There's the whole fish out of water thing in K'un-L'un....but there's also the dynamic with Power Man / Luke Cage, where they become inseparable best friends dispute the disparity of their backgrounds.

Ah, but "Asian" isn't a homogeneous ethnic group. If K'un-L'un is Tibetian-ish, Danny could have Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indonesian, or any other Asian ancestry and still be considered an outsider. If he also had partial Caucasian ancestry, it would still work. Especially in a city like New York, where every non-Asian unconsciously lumps all Asians into the same group, and certainly wouldn't stop to think about the major cultural differences.

Yes, a Danny Rand with some/full Asian heritage would run into flack for "Marvel's First Asian hero onscreen is a martial artist", but based on Daredevil and Jessica Jones, I have faith the Marvel Netflix division could do a decent job (or better) depicting these nuances and depths that make Danny an outsider in the East and West. Certainly better than the film division, at least.

I think all anyone really wants is Marvel to make an honest attempt at inclusiveness and diversity in their shows and films. When you are a minority in a society, seeing someone on a show or movie that looks like you/is like you--and isn't a bad guy--is really amazing.


CBDunkerson wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
I had a hard time taking it seriously. The whole rant about Tom Cruise being the 'Last Samuraii'??? Ken Watanabe was the Last Samuraii. Tom Cruise was the drunk American captain who learned something from the Japanese man.

Ummm... there was that bit where all the samurai except Tom Cruise's character died.

Is there some confusion on the meaning of the word 'last' here?

Yes... because he was not a samurai. He fought WITH them... but not everyone wielding a sword was a samurai. It was Ken Watanabe's character that was the last of them and when he died he took the traditional soul of Japan with him.

That was the point of the movie. The Japanese were throwing away their traditions to become more western and join the rest of the world, while the Katsumoto, last samurai was holding out and pleading with the Emperor not bend.

It was a case of the Japanese wanting to be more western, and a westerner learning the value of the Japanese culture and the weak Emperor caught in the middle.

There was a huge Yin/Yang aspect to that movie, and NOT having Tom Cruise as generic white guy would have destroyed the movie.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm all for avoiding whitewashing and am fine with characters having their race changed for greater inclusiveness if it wasn't central to who they were. But I also don't think all white characters need to be made non-white when adapted for new media.

And, as has been said...why Danny Rand? As others have noted, the push for him to specifically be Asian seems pretty racist when examined since the only reason he should be Asian is that he does martial arts. You want to push for inclusiveness, suggest hum being Hispanic or something.

Or, more appropriately given that he's already been cast with a decent actor, we could just go 'Okay, he's a white guy. Like always.' and move on to suggesting something for a character who hasn't been cast yet.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Some of you guys are over-analyzing this stuff. You'll watch it that's for certain right? whether you'll like it remains to be seen. When things are a done deal all you can do is then vote with your wallet (theater: go or no go?) or in the case of Netflix, rate it one star if it's s+!!tty.


phantom1592 wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Whitewashing in Hollywood

I'm sorry, but YOU CAN'T WHITEWASH DANNY RAND. HE'S BEEN WHITE SINCE HIS FIRST G#*$$+N APPEARANCE.

The Social Justice Warriors need to back the hell off when they start saying that it's racist to make a white character white. It's utterly g~#@%+n ridiculous.

Being white is actually a key component of the character. There's the whole fish out of water thing in K'un-L'un....but there's also the dynamic with Power Man / Luke Cage, where they become inseparable best friends dispute the disparity of their backgrounds.

Do you get this mad when they gave Sean Connery the role of Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramírez?

Cause Connery certainly doesn't look Egyptian, nor does he sound Spanish. Not being Scottish is actually pretty central to his character.

Nope... but I did get annoyed when he was a Russian sub captain...

I have a theory about Highlander. I believe the casting was twisted up on that show on purpose. You had a Scottish man playing an Egyptian/Spaniard (Though living in Scotland) and a Frenchman playing a Scot.

It all boils down to the line in the police station.

"You talk funny... where you from?"

"Lots of places..."

After a couple hundred years and traveling around from place to place... their accents SHOULDN'T have been static. Truthfully, it was probably because the director liked Lambert and Connery is awesome in everything... but that's my own fan theory for that ;)

So, you're going to make apologies for a white actor taking a non-white role... but you're going to insist that non-white actors can't take white roles.

Yeaaahhhh.....

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