There seems to be differants amounts of magick in differant types of D&D multiverses, so which kind do you prefer? (Note: The Koga might now word these right, but you'll get the idea.)
Low:
Low magick campaigns, where it's rare, mysterous, and normaly forbidden, probably something like Hyborian (Conan d20) would be the best example, and to a lesser extent d20 modern, though frankly The Koga thinks this go's too far..
Medium:
Medium magick campaigns, where it's either rare and powerful, or common and crappy, or some combonation of the two. The Koga likes the latter more, where magick almost serves as an alternative to technology, common, but unreliable, and probably not convient.. Rare and powerful could work to, but it has to be implemented properly, as how is it rare if a PC can just waltz right into spellcasting? Unless there's a process, or he faces many more troubles then the otherwise melee or rogue type character would..
High:
Traditional D&D could be described as high magick, especialy that of Forgotten Realms or whatever, bassicaly everyone and thier mother could conceivably cast spells, it just so happens they don't "feel like it" or did not have the oppurtunity. Though frankly this seems more like a copout then actual justification for not casting spells, but then, The Koga is bias cause he dislikes high magick campaigns way more then low ones..
So, from your point of view, what kindof world do you prefer to play-in and DM? Something rich in spells like Final Fantasy? Rare accounts of magickal practice like Lord of the Rings? Or a healthy middle-ground like Legend of Zelda?
Farewell2kings only switched to 3.5 a year ago, so he vowed to run his first 3.5 campaign straight up by the rules and wealth-by-level guidelines.
Farewell2kings is now comfortable with 3.5 and will implement a low magic campaign next time 'round. Farewell2kings likes the Iron Heroes D20 variant, but his players are stubborn old mules and would rebel if Farewell2kings was to make that switch this soon after dumping 2e.
With all the various buff spells available that simulate magic items, allow swords to be temporarily enchanted, etc. Farewell2kings will dump the wealth by level guidelines in his next campaign and implement the silver standard, where treasure awards are cut to 10% normal while still keeping costs the same.
Farewell2kings will not give out magic items in treasure except in rare and precious circumstances. PC's are free to make their own items, but with the silver standard in place, it's going to hurt in the pocketbook, a lot, to make a magic item.
Farewell2kings thinks that this will make party balance, clerics and spellcasters more valuable and make his players appreciate magic items a little more...and bring back some wonder to the game.
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I'm running a game that has the party lost in the Underdark. It's not really an adventure per say, but rather--it's about survival in the unknown w/o knowing how to escape. My players are eating this stuff up and i am using 3.5 rules for magic. I dont allow a whole lot of magick but it's more than i would care to use. Their characters started at 1st level and have since reached 8th--this campaign should bring them to 20th level. There have been numerous deaths but that doesnt deter them.
In my next campaign, i plan to use very minimal magick--more along the lines of Robert E.Howards Conans novels with a little LOTR(animated version) thrown in for good measure. In fact, the only magick that is usuable will be magicians only. Makes sense to me. Game on!
Thoth-Amon
Farewell2kings thinks that this will make party balance, clerics and spellcasters more valuable and make his players appreciate magic items a little more...and bring back some wonder to the game.
That's a good idea, F2K. Right now, I run a "straight-and-narrow" campaign that closely uses the wealth guidelines. . . but like you, I didn't always do that. It's just. . . with 3rd edition, my big fear is that monkeying with the treasure guildlines might screw up the CRs. I've gotten very used to creating balanced encounters since 3rd came out, and I don't want to lose that.
Maybe there's a way to caculate the benefits of magic items and treasure? For instance, in the face of only 10% treasure, a party's effectiveness might drop from an average 7th level party to an average 5th level party. You can adjust the XP rewards accordingly, or just calculate them "as is" for a slower level progression.
What ARE magic items worth to a party? Is it the same, no matter what level you are, or is it a sliding scale, with only a little difference in party effectiveness at lower levels, and a radical difference at 20th?
Knowing the answers would add quite a bit of flexibility to my game's level of magic. Considering how much it would empower DMs, this would be some good information to have. I think I'd pay money to buy a PDF that accurately outlines those different permutations at each party level.
I did say accurately, remember.
Anyway, sorry to temporarily highjack your honorable thread, oh mighty Koga. This one says "medium magic." For now.
Yeah, Chris....I'm figuring about CR -2 for most encounters, assuming the PC's don't scrimp and save and find some ingenious way to get the money to make their own magic items and catch back up the "magic by level" guidelines....the hard way.
It'll also make stat blocks a lot simpler for my game. 1-2 magic items per powerful NPC villain--that is it. I just don't see a shopping cart full of magic items per PC and per NPC making the game any more fun--just more complicated.
Potions? Aisle 4....please go check out our special on +1 weapons for your army of cohorts in the deli Department......it's not my idea of fantasy. Ever notice how many Dungeon magazine adventures feature relatively low level mooks all carrying a +1 weapon or +1 armor of some sort...just so the party doesn't just blow through them?
Well...all that magic usually ends up in the parties' inventory...and they WILL go to great lengths to carry that with them...hell, each +1 weapon is 1000gp or so wholesale!!
THAT will not happen in my next campaign. I think my current gaming group has like 23 +1 weapons in "storage" so that they can use it to equip their future great army of conquest.
I've run virtually nothing but published adventures in this campaign, so they've obtained all this stuff from "official" material. This is not a slam on Dungeon adventures...far from it...they are paragons of keeping to the guidelines set by the DMG for wealth by level. It's my responsibility, ultimately, of course, but I vowed to run this campaign straight up by the books (and magazines!).
S+@&, there was one high level adventure that I read where I counted like 140 + magic items in the hands of the mooks, which were all 8th or 9th level themselves. It was almost 250,000 gp worth of magic crap....even if the PC's only got a hold of a small portion of that, it's just too much......3000gp of magic items per orc just so they can be +16 to hit instead of +14....no way! Part of the problem is that there is no reasonable way to keep low level monsters in the game for any length of time, because you're not supposed to run combat encounters with more than 8-12 enemies in them, according to the DMG....so regular orcs and bugbears are around for like a month in the average D&D campaign before they start getting levelled up into the stratosphere just so they can still have a place in D&D. That's also something I'm going to fix, I just don't know how I'm going to do it quite yet.
Remember in the old Drow modules from 1e, where the drow armor and weapons deteriorated rapidly once taken to the surface? They all had magic chain and magic swords, but those items were worthless outside. The concept of limiting party access to vast amounts of magic was there even then. I'm bringing it back and I don't care how much my players b+!#+ about it. DM's need to have fun too and the Superwalmart of magic is not my idea of fun. Ranting feels good remember?
Others, of course, will disagree, but this is my opinion....stated ever so succinctly and full of nuance and subtlety ;)
The Koga thinks it's a wonderful idea, it makes players appreciate magick-items a heckofalot more, treasure actually becomes valuable, and it makes sense why people use longswords instead of +4 vorpal swords. (Even if they are dirt poor..)
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I am currently in a low magic and low power campaign (something like 20 pt buy or something) and I am frustrated because the DM keeps forgetting how underpowered we are and slapping us with encounters that use every bit of our resources and than when we all retreat from the dungeon/woods or whatever, he can't understand why the game is bogging down and running so slowly. That said, I like low-magic settings and medium-magic settings. D&D currently plays too much like a video-game if played by the book. I am making a home-brew that will eliminate alot of the magicks that I see as problematic, it will probably rank as medium magic when I am done.
FH
Okay, I figured somebody might call me on what I posted previously, so I looked it up.
There is a Dungeon adventure in #118, Throne of Iuz. The orc camp features one-hundred and five CR9 orcs (barbarian 4/fighter 5), each one of which carries two +1 magic weapons.
How many of you run games for players who would go to the ends of the Earth to track every one of these orcs down and take their stuff? Just on the mooks that's two-hundred and ten +1 magic weapons in a single adventure. Even if the party only kills the sixty orcs the adventure says is needed to break morale, at that level the PC's are still going to track down all the survivors...you know they've got the divination magic and spells to do it.
It's a great adventure, don't get me wrong and it might very well feature a prominent place in my next campaign, but 210 magic weapons on just the flunkies? It's not the fault of the writer, or Paizo...it's the 3.5 wealth by level guidelines that say it's okay to give CR9 creatures two +1 magic weapons....
That's a battalion's worth of magic weapons in one adventure! Sure, the price will tank if the PC's try to dump all of these items in one place, but how many PC's would book passage on a ship and dribble the +1 tridents and +1 orcish shotputs out at every port of call over the span of a year, making a cool 210,000 gp in the process, assuming they average a 50% resale.
Remember in the old Drow modules from 1e, where the drow armor and weapons deteriorated rapidly once taken to the surface? They all had magic chain and magic swords, but those items were worthless outside. The concept of limiting party access to vast amounts of magic was there even then.
You can do that now, as well. I think it's like a +1 or +2 "enhancement" that makes an item more effective in a Faerzsess area, but makes it vulnerable to sunlight. The item (not the player) makes a fort save each day or something like that, and if it fails, it disintegrates. It's definitely a DM's tool, and that's how I used it. It's the "no, you can't have this item." enhancement. I think that you can circumvent the sunlight sensitivity by keeping the item in a lead box, or with some sort of alchemical compound, but otherwise it's going to be gone by the time the PCs could sell it.
Anyway, as far as my preference toward magic goes, I tend to like it medium, leaning toward well done. A place or two where the PCs can get magic items, so that the wizard can be a wizard, rather than a glorified adept, and it can be assumed that the opposition has similar resources. Though, I'll admit, that may be in part because I have yet to run a game where there were enough players to cover even the archetypal party.
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We converted to 3.5 in November of '05 & similar to Farewell2kings, I'm running it strictly by the core rules (we did vote to add the Spell Compendium) for the entire AP. Afterwords, we're going to a low, low fantasy campaign based in the Thillonrian pennisula...barbarians, rangers, rogues, druids, bards, fighters, & sorcerers only ...
In answer to the question, low fantasy.
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Farewell2kings only switched to 3.5 a year ago, so he vowed to run his first 3.5 campaign straight up by the rules and wealth-by-level guidelines.
Before 3.5, Aberzombie played 2E and never really thought about whether or not there was a glut of magic. He just went where the rest of the party went and either killed or was killed. Aberzombie purchased 3E and 3.5E books, but never actually played with those rules until this past World Wide D&D Game Day. He enjoyed it.
Farewell2kings is now comfortable with 3.5 and will implement a low magic campaign next time 'round. Farewell2kings likes the Iron Heroes D20 variant, but his players are stubborn old mules and would rebel if Farewell2kings was to make that switch this soon after dumping 2e.
When Aberzombie finally started playing regularly again, the new group wanted to use Iron Heroes. So far, Aberzombie is impressed by the system. Magic is there, but is very dangerous to use. Instead, there is an emphasis on feats and skills. In fact, Aberzombie was most impressed with the skill system. They have put various skills together in "Skill Groups", and a point in the group gives you a point in all the skills contained therein. For example, the "Stealth" Skill group contains the skills Move Silently and Hide, while the "Social" Skill group contains the skills Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate.
The Feat system is also different. There are General Feats, such as Iron Will, Lightening Reflexes, etc. Then there are Feat Masteries, which takes a basic type of feat (like two-weapon fighting) and gives it severla levels of mastery that each provides different benefits.
All in all, Aberzombie has, so far, enjoyed Iron Heroes and plans to use its rules as the basis for a new homebrew world he is doing.
FH,
I think there's a conversion chart on Monte Cook's website that allows you to convert OGL creatures to IH, so you can use most of the MM creatures. I haven't downloaded it, but I saw it in passing one time.
F2K
How much magic I prefer? It depends on my campaign mostly. I'm currently running the Shackled City AP, set in a mid magic world. Beofre that, I ran a planescape campaign. The characters were based in Sigil. There's no logical reason that players couldn't find whatever item or spell they wanted. As long as they were willing to pay the price. And the price was hardly ever expressed in goldpieces.
After I've finished SCAP, I plan on running either a pirate themed political / swashbuckling campaign set in a low magic Iron Heroes type world. My other thought is a bloodwar campaign. Im'n not sure how much magic I want in that setting.
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Aberzombie, do you need to use the Iron Heroes Bestiary or do the 3.5 monster manuals work with that system in a balanced manner? I also am seeking an alternative method of operation.
FH
The 3.5 MM translates as pretty well balanced so far, but I'd be careful with any monsters that have spell like abilities. Also, they recommend that you be careful with any monster that has what they call an "instant kill" effect. For example, when there is no magic user to reverse a medusa's petrifying gaze attack, any victim of said attack is as good as dead.
Also, Iron Heroes uses Villian Classes for monsters, and these classes have abilites based on CR. The Iron Heroes Besitary is pretty cool though. I have that, the IH Players Handbook, and the IH Battlebox. There is also the book Mastering Iron Heroes, which introduced the idea of Villain Classes. I don't have that one yet, but our DM does.
Hope this helps.
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Aberzombie, do you need to use the Iron Heroes Bestiary or do the 3.5 monster manuals work with that system in a balanced manner? I also am seeking an alternative method of operation.
FH
The 3.5 MM translates as pretty well balanced so far, but I'd be careful with any monsters that have spell like abilities. Also, they recommend that you be careful with any monster that has what they call an "instant kill" effect. For example, when there is no magic user to reverse a medusa's petrifying gaze attack, any victim of said attack is as good as dead.
Also, Iron Heroes uses Villian Classes for monsters, and these classes have abilites based on CR. The Iron Heroes Besitary is pretty cool though. I have that, the IH Players Handbook, and the IH Battlebox. There is also the book Mastering Iron Heroes, which introduced the idea of Villain Classes. I don't have that one yet, but our DM does.
Hope this helps.
thanks, i will be looking into it.
I am not at all fond of the medium to high magic games. I don't like campaigns in which magic takes the place of tech (continual light steet lamps etc). I very much prefer a campaign in which magic is rare and not an every day thing. I guess I like to play a more 'realistic' version of D&D ... as much of a contradiction that might be.
One issue I've always had with high magic games is that, unless you are willing to sort of just ignore a good amount of fairly common sense issues, things just get too unbeleivable for me. For instance, one could argue that, unlike in the real world, castles would not have very much importance or value in a high magic game. What is the point of building a castle if there are gobs of people that can use spells or other magic to fly over them, teleport past them (or into them!) etc. Of course, one can then argue that the people inside the castle just have to make sure they have enough spell casters and other magic to combat these issues, but at that point it becomes some kind of magical arms race and strays pretty far from any kind of historical reality.
I guess really the question is what do you want ... high fantasy or historical reality ... or something in between. For me, I tend to want to lean toward historical reality (sort of a Arthurian dark ages Britain kind of feel) so I go with a low magic campaign.
For whatever it's worth ...
Low. Magic items and wizards feel more special when there are less of them. Additionally, it stops a lot of uncomfortable questions about why so many things have not been solved by magic. it also makes the PCs rely on themselves more than magic or magical allies.
Director of Narrative
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I enjoy low to middle. Just separate it into different area of the world. Right now I am running a game that starts off in the magic-suspicious rural areas of Keoland and will progress into more 'middle level magic' cities. I have been stingy with magic items so far and will be introducing the 'powersites' concept recently elaborated on in the DMGII. I like the idea of temporary 'power-ups'. It also just so happened to fit into my campaign storyline.
I like magic heavy games. Tiger Lilly has come up with a new Class of weapon smith called a BattleCraft Smith that allows weapons and armor to be customized for a fee. Of course we play 2ED not 3.5.
Y'know, I must say I go off a different scale. For me Forgotten Realms is medium fantasy--and that's about where I like it. Magic is an oddity, not everyone uses it but most are familiar with it. There's as many quack remedies and old wive's tale folk remedies as there are magic potions. Old magic persists but is largely the stuff of legend. The closest thing most adventurers find to real magic are +1 rings of protection and their handy +1 longsword. That's magic where I like it.
High magic for me is about magic items and artifacts as the usual tools of the trade. Teleportation circles and recall stones are how people travel long distances. People are as likely to have a pack golem as they are to have a mule. Fortune tellers in seedy tents actually do read fortunes, and can turn you into a werewolf if you try to rob them. That's high magic to me.
Lately my big problem with magic has been its ability to utterly defuse drama. A high elven diplomat summoned by a wish spell sacrifices his life to say some key choice words to a completely psychopathic blood soaked villain, words that catch in her heart only after she has struck him down in her hate--a sacrifice that helps to change her and might even redeem her. Then the high level cleric resurrects him and *poof* no more noble sacrifice. Yuck. Likewise there's just been a huge battle in which thousands of people from Teziir have died in a sensless attack. People are weeping, hearts are full--and the group's archmage is researching an Epic spell using the life seed to raise them all en masse. Huh? Likewise there's a prophecy. One way a paladin husband and marauder wife will be brought happily together, though thousands of lives will be lost. On the other hand the thousands will be saved, but husband and wife will die. Great moral quandry for the characters--except it won't happen. It can't happen because all this insta-life magic keeps popping up and killing the dramatic moments of the game (epic level campaign by the way if you couldn't tell).
So I'll ammend my statement. I love my idea of mid-level magic (aka high magic) for game settings, but would make bringing back the dead lots harder, riskier and more roleplay intensive no matter what level characters are.
In second edition AD&D I decided at some point to remove classes of wizard and cleric from the game. All the dabbler classes like bard, ranger and paladin would be around for low level magic (and stat requirement took care that those classes are not very common) and for the more powerful magic there would be wizard specialists (tougher requirements and limitations in versatility) and god-specific priests (slightly higher requirements, limited amount of spheres when compared to generic clerics).
Ergo, less magic in general and all the casters are more limited but still capable of going for those high-level spells (at least those which happen to fall inside their specialty).
For 3.5 I haven't yet found the way to do the same, even though I applaud new classes like adept. Having nice amount of weak casters around is a good thing but those high-level casters need something done to them...
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In second edition AD&D I decided at some point to remove classes of wizard and cleric from the game. All the dabbler classes like bard, ranger and paladin would be around for low level magic (and stat requirement took care that those classes are not very common) and for the more powerful magic there would be wizard specialists (tougher requirements and limitations in versatility) and god-specific priests (slightly higher requirements, limited amount of spheres when compared to generic clerics).
Ergo, less magic in general and all the casters are more limited but still capable of going for those high-level spells (at least those which happen to fall inside their specialty).For 3.5 I haven't yet found the way to do the same, even though I applaud new classes like adept. Having nice amount of weak casters around is a good thing but those high-level casters need something done to them...
Have you tried Iron Heroes, it is definitely low magic.
Have you tried Iron Heroes, it is definitely low magic.
I haven't so far...however, I would like to keep high-level spells around and limit the casters so that no mage can cast everything (that's why I generally like specialist wizards).
So if you want to become a powerful necromancer that means giving up hopes of casting Wish or Weird...Hmm, maybe when creating a wizard character one would have to put the schools of magic in order...in first school chosen all levels were available, in second levels 0-7, in third 0-6, in fourth 0-5...maybe I could put the same rule for all caster classes...not much noticeable effect on rangers, bards and paladins but definitely limiting for wizards and clerics.
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Have you tried Iron Heroes, it is definitely low magic.I haven't so far...however, I would like to keep high-level spells around and limit the casters so that no mage can cast everything (that's why I generally like specialist wizards).
So if you want to become a powerful necromancer that means giving up hopes of casting Wish or Weird...
Hmm, maybe when creating a wizard character one would have to put the schools of magic in order...in first school chosen all levels were available, in second levels 0-7, in third 0-6, in fourth 0-5...maybe I could put the same rule for all caster classes...not much noticeable effect on rangers, bards and paladins but definitely limiting for wizards and clerics.
I say Iron Heroes, because those system rules make it very dangerous to use magic. You can still get high level effects, but you're taking a chance. However, the IH rules also allow for magic users to improve their abilities to cast spells by making deals with outsiders and such (who have no problems with magic). And if a character has something of the otherworldly in his bloodline (like a half-fiend or half-celestial) then he can more easily use magic.
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I say Iron Heroes, because those system rules make it very dangerous to use magic. You can still get high level effects, but you're taking a chance. However, the IH rules also allow for magic users to improve their abilities to cast spells by making deals with outsiders and such (who have no problems with magic). And if a character has something of the otherworldly in his bloodline (like a half-fiend or half-celestial) then he can more easily use magic.
What do you mean by "makes it dangerous to use magic"? What happens if you use magic? what % of the time is it dangerous?
???????????The Ever-Questioning
FH
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I say Iron Heroes, because those system rules make it very dangerous to use magic. You can still get high level effects, but you're taking a chance. However, the IH rules also allow for magic users to improve their abilities to cast spells by making deals with outsiders and such (who have no problems with magic). And if a character has something of the otherworldly in his bloodline (like a half-fiend or half-celestial) then he can more easily use magic.What do you mean by "makes it dangerous to use magic"? What happens if you use magic? what % of the time is it dangerous?
???????????
The Ever-Questioning
FH
I don't remember the exact rules, but basically every time you use magic, there is a chance that something will go wrong (either a Minor or Major Disaster). The check for this depends on lots of factors: What level of effect you're going for, the number of mana points you put into it, any miscellaneous bonuses, etc. It sounds complicated, but only because I'm not really explaining it well. I haven't actully used the rules yet, since our DM doesn't want anyone playing an Arcanist since we just started using the system.
The Minor/Major Disasters can be something like this: Let's say that I wanted to cast a bolt of energy and damage an opponent but I fail my spell check - A Minor Disaster means that my spell maybe targets a random person with half damage. A Major Disaster means that the full damage rebounds on me. Or for something like divination - A Minor Disaster means I receive bad information. A Major Disaster might mean I go insane for a while.
I run a high magic campaign, but my players need it. My campaigns are generally harder than normal, something a fighter of level equal to or just above the average CR couldn't handle. It would probably take an epic level, or atleast high level, PC to make it past the first level of most of my bigger campaigns if they were to do it without magic.
Since we all seem to like referring to ouselves in the third person...TS is currently running a campaign by the books, so that he can get a handle on DMing the rules. TS is slowly learning to dislike the absorbident amount of magic junk available to PCs. TS is slowly revamping the game, and plans on revamping the wealth by level chart. In addition, TS has replaced magical +1 to +5 bonuses with masterwork bonuses of the same type. Also, TS believes that all magic should only be able to be used by sentient beings; magic items are impossible. If a player wants to deal fire damage with his +5 (masterwork) sword, he can pay a mage to scribe a magical tattoo into his flesh to grant this power. Conveniently enough, such tattoos are not lootable, so TS plans on giving NPCs just as much cash as PCs knowing that only nonmagical weapons and armor can be scrounged and sold by greedy PCs.
Tequila Sunrise likes this thread.
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Since we all seem to like referring to ouselves in the third person...
Naah! That was only because we wanted to give Koga: Ninja Boy a much needed and very mocking, verbal (or at least typed) thrashing.
That said, and Ninja Lad's apparent immaturity aside, I love this thread. The idea for it shows that Ninjoga at least possesses the capacity for rational thought and the means to express said thought.
By the difinition set by Koga the ninja trick, my current campaign is high in magic. I would say most of my campaigns are high in magic. Magic and spell casting is part of the charm of D&D for me.
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Right now I am running the Age of Worms by the book for my group's first experience with 3.5 edition. The players are getting ready to meet Alastor next session and will be heading back to town soon. I have always liked the feel of 1st and 2nd edition AD&D and I am hoping that this campaign can be low-to-mid magic like those early adventures. I have given out treasure from the adventure "as written" and while I am sure that the players need these items, it was hard for my group to grasp(and keep track of) how many magic items they were finding. Hopefully I can limit this a bit with some careful planning and a little luck. I want to run some side quests in this campaign and hopefully add a journey to white plume mountain for a couple of rare(??!!)magic weapons. I might start a thread in a couple of weeks to harvest ideas from all of you fine folks. My official response to this thread is that I prefer low to mid magic campaigns. (set in Greyhawk of course)
I would say most of my campaigns are high in magic. Magic and spell casting is part of the charm of D&D for me.
To me, the wide availability of magic makes the charm go away. Magic item charm to me was the absolute giddiness that players used to express when they found magic items....it was triumphant. Now, it's just ho-hum...::yawn:: what does this do again?
There have been occasions where players in my current campaign have failed to write down magic items' powers, couldn't find their notes and NOT complained when I told them that the item was gone, since they obviously didn't think it was important enough to write down.
I'm gonna buy those magic item cards that Paizo is putting out for my next campaign. I want magic to be special again, to bring back that wonder. Having a buttload of it is the anti-thesis of that.
However, Sir Kai--that certainly doesn't mean that I think you can't have a charmful high magic campaign...it's just harder to pull off, I think. If your players still appreciate magic items, even when there's a lot of them available, you've done a good job as a DM.
To answer The Koga's question, I feel like mid to low level magic is somewhat preferable. I can remember back when I played 2nd Edition (when I was actually a player rather than a full time DM) that finding that first magic weapon was such an exciting thrill. I'm running the AOW campaign sporadically for my players (everyone's in college, so we don't play as often as I would like) and I could see some of this excitement at the very beginning of the path. We're halfway through Hall of Harsh Reflections, and I can see some of the enthusiasm for new stuff dying down now that magical items are a bit more common. But, as long as the story is good, it's okay to have a little of that. I'm kind of glad that I don't have players that hoard every last bit of magical equipment. They just take what they think they can use and leave it at that.
I would love to try a low magic campaign like F2K wants to run. The emphasis would be more on the actual character and the way they are built rather than their equipment, and occasional run-ins with powerful magical enemies (high level wizards/clerics/sorcerers, outsiders, etc.) can end up much more memorable than usual. Masterwork gear or items made of strange materials would become much more valuable and sought after, since they fall into the nonmagical realm. A more detailed account of nonmagical loot discovered could be necessary and fun. And how cool would it be that, when you finally get a magic item, its rarity would necessitate a history for that item, a name beyond '+1 heavy mace' and a feeling of awe knowing that your character now owns it?
It can't happen because all this insta-life magic keeps popping up and killing the dramatic moments of the game (epic level campaign by the way if you couldn't tell).
Dragon #342 has a really good article that covers this topic. If you haven't read it, I suggest you pick it up.
Dragon #342 has a really good article that covers this topic. If you haven't read it, I suggest you pick it up.
Which issue is that? Can you let me know what the cover is or something? I'll definitely try and track it down. What advice do they give? I'd love a brief synopsis if you don't mind.
"Beyond the Pale" is the article. #342 is the latest Dragon magazine, so you should be able to order it readily from Paizo if your gaming store doesn't have it.
The article discusses the impact of readily available raising and resurrection magic and ways a DM can adjust his/her campaign to bring back some of the dread and drama that dying normally causes.
It's really good, you should pick it up....I think you'll find something in there you can use. The cover features a huge white dragon with halitosis.
Used to be high; is much more medium now
I would say most of my campaigns are high in magic. Magic and spell casting is part of the charm of D&D for me.To me, the wide availability of magic makes the charm go away. Magic item charm to me was the absolute giddiness that players used to express when they found magic items....it was triumphant. Now, it's just ho-hum...::yawn:: what does this do again?
You make a great point farwell2kings. I remember, when learning first edition D&D, when finding a magic item even a potion was a big deal. The first time I ever played Baldurs Gate, I was shocked to find out you can just buy magic items. No wonder some of my players thought I was stingy with magic items. Coming from the early days of 1st edition D&D, I remember the frustration of playing a wizard, at first level you had one spell, that's it.
Now a cleaver 1st level wizard can be a much more effective spell caster than in earlier editions. A first level wizard with experience can write a scroll (from what I remember in 1st edition D&D a wizard had to be 9 th level to write a scroll). A third level cleric can brew potions of CLW and pass them out. It seems the rules themselves promote more availability of magic than in previous editions. 0 level spells improve a low level wizards spell selection. The ability to make magical items at lower levels make such items much more available ( scrolls @ 1st, potions @ 3rd, armor & arms @ 5th). Heck, the ability of a cleric to convert any spell into a healing spell, makes those spells a lot more available. I like to consol myself with the idea that PCs are the exception, and that the common peasant farmer rarerly if ever sees a spell cast in anger or ever uses a magical item, even a potion. But the reality is that in game play magic is normal and accepted regular part of the adventurers life.
But still as a D&D player the charm of the magic remains. I think for me the charm of magic is alive in the in it's descriptions and application by players in the game. If your despription of how a spell is manifested does not change the rules then I will let it in the game. As a DM I will reward cleaver application and spell descriptions with xp. I think the imagining of such fantastical happenings still thrills me as does seeing such thing in a movie still thrills me. Maybe because I still do not connect modern technologies with fantastical anologies. For example, casting a telepathy spell is not the same as using a cell phone. That alone makes imaging casting spells more charming than real life.
Anyway pretending to cast spells in a game, even if it is a regular part of that game has yet to loose it's charm after 25+ years of playing D&D.
The way that a DM could limit magic and not change any of the rules is not just by limiting treasure awards, but also by enforcing the time it takes to craft items, as per the PH description of the "Craft" skill.
I just don't see masterwork items just sitting in racks on shelves at the armorer/weaponsmith/general store. They have to be commissioned specifically or made by the PC himself if he wants to have a masterwork item to enchant.
So, a masterwork longsword costs 315gp retail. The craftsman pays 105gp in raw material. The PH says a longsword is DC15 Weaponsmithing skill at a cost of 5gp raw material. Let's say this weaponsmith is +13 at his Craft, which is pretty good but not unreasonable to find. Say he rolls a 10 on his Craft roll, giving him 23 x DC15 = 345 sp worth of work in one week, which is more than double the longsword's price, so he finishes the longsword in just about 3 days.
Now, the masterwork part. 300gp at DC20. If the craftsman rolls a 10 average every week, he'll do 460sp worth of work on the sword every week. It'll take 6 1/2 weeks to complete the "masterwork" sword. The craftsman has shelled out 105 gp in raw materials and assuming he sells it at normal retail price, he clears 210gp for almost seven weeks worth of work.
Holy crap! .....masterwork weapons are tossed about dungeon treasures and put on NPC/monster equipment list like they're penny candy canes, it seems like, not to mention the +1 weapons. I don't even think many craftsmen would willingly take on a masterwork commission because of the time it takes and the risks involved in possibly screwing up the project....yet, many DMs, myself included, allow masterwork weapons to be purchased readily by any PC with the cash to do it.
I think in my next campaign the application of a little bit of realism in the economics of item creation, money availability, inflation, etc. will greatly limit the availability of magic items and will make them inherently more valuable to the players.
I've been very guilty of making the shopping/commissioning of items experience something that only takes too little time and is too readily available. I've tailored cities and towns to be "adventurer friendly" as far as making lots of weapons and options and euqipment readily available for purchase...and I don't think it would be that way except in a few places in the world. Towns don't exist to make adventurer's lives easier, they exist for purposes of their own.
Weaponsmiths, armorers, etc. would be a strategic resource utilized by the local lords, they wouldn't be able to take on commissions from adventurers very easily. I think the rapid and easy availability of masterwork items and all sorts of equipment just ready to be purchased in "general stores" are an evolution of my 21st century mindset--if you have the money, you can buy ANYTHING instantly....that's just not the way I think it would work except maybe in Waterdeep or Greyhawk City or Sharn, and even then you might have to do some digging around or information gathering to find the place where you can buy a masterwork longsword right away.
The craftsman has shelled out 105 gp in raw materials and assuming he sells it at normal retail price, he clears 210gp for almost seven weeks worth of work.
Of course, if your craftsman happens to be a ninth level wizard (uncommon for a random NPC, but not unreasonable as an adversary) he could make your masterwork longsword much more quickly: Fabricate. Definitely one of my favorite arcane spells. "Hey... a lump of Iron. I could really use a set of manacles right about now." You still have to make the craft check, but it takes all of six seconds for a cubic foot of raw materials. So in a mid to high level game I'd say absolutely, go ahead and throw those masterwork weapons around. If you're feeling fiendish, you could even decide to give them a residual magical aura to reflect the magic made to use them.
For me Forgotten Realms is medium fantasy--and that's about where I like it. Magic is an oddity, not everyone uses it but most are familiar with it. There's as many quack remedies and old wive's tale folk remedies as there are magic potions. Old magic persists but is largely the stuff of legend. The closest thing most adventurers find to real magic are +1 rings of protection and their handy +1 longsword. That's magic where I like it.
I would never have thought that FR is medium fantasy; a setting where all of the widespread secret societies have at least mid-level casters, where there are umpteen special forms of magic, where every town has an archmage and a dead god, and every society is descended from some magic using behemoth does not come off as mdeium fantasy. From where I stand, FR is magic-soaked, a place with so much you can't throw a rock without hitting a level 10+ caster.
The description you give, about the +1 being special, is low magic. Low magic does not mean low fantasy. It just makes magic more exotic, of course. I like this idea, but FR is far from that.
The way that a DM could limit magic and not change any of the rules is not just by limiting treasure awards, but also by enforcing the time it takes to craft items, as per the PH description of the "Craft" skill.
I'm with you.
I've made this same point on a number of threads.
Especially, with regard to item creation. Creaton time is one of the things most commonly glossed over. Further, as the DM you could add research time - prior to creation time and time to acquire special components. Research might take would be item creators to libraries or sages in other cities - that may or may not have the information sought. Exotic components may take time to find and require additional investment to extract correctly and store. Once gained some may spoil. Plus once begun the rules for item creation cold be enforced - No spell casting or fighting, etc. - blows the attempt to create, and the materials. How many PCs or even NPCs have that kind of down time.
Plus once begun the rules for item creation cold be enforced - No spell casting or fighting, etc. - blows the attempt to create, and the materials. How many PCs or even NPCs have that kind of down time.
Actually, if you look at page 283 of the DM's Guide...
The Caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caser can use the rest of his time as he ses fit. A character who takes a break from item creation to adventure shuld keep track of how many days of work remain on that item.
I would never have thought that FR is medium fantasy; a setting where all of the widespread secret societies have at least mid-level casters, where there are umpteen special forms of magic, where every town has an archmage and a dead god, and every society is descended from some magic using behemoth does not come off as mdeium fantasy. From where I stand, FR is magic-soaked, a place with so much you can't throw a rock without hitting a level 10+ caster.
The description you give, about the +1 being special, is low magic.
Like I said, my standard is a bit different I think than the board sets up. I think what marks FR as medium is that so many of the magical traditions ARE secret societies or lost forms of forgotten magic. Yeah there's a lot of mages, hence it's not a low magic setting, but these are fairly low to mid level guys who look after their own concerns. The "every town with an archmage and a dead god" experience would be high level, yes...but I don't see that if Faerun. In fact, the majority of towns don't really even have much in the way of wizards or magic. You need a large city or a big-time adventurer town before you start running into that.
Now it's not that +1 items are particularly special in Faerun. They're the standard "magic" that an adventurer is familiar with, or y'know magic missile and entangle spells. The stuff that is special are dancing swords or boots of flying. That stuff is beyond the experience of the average low level swordswinger.
High magic is closer to what (I gather) Eberron is shooting for. Airships are as common as donkeys. Golems are a race. People have +1 can openers of speed. Magic is a day to day tool, less than even a sword--more like a hammer or a crowbar. You use it to get the job done better or faster. I'd say if Faerun was nearly all places like Halruua or Lantan, you would have there a high magic setting. As it is, I'd stick with calling it medium.
I was thinking, is magic really that rare?
every day I see people offering divination into the future on TV. A person can easily purchase Tarot cards, ouija boards, and that crazy eightball to perform divination magic. People in Malaysia where tatoos for protection. Some are even possessed by the spirits of these tatoos. Wooo, magic! On Maui people sell crystal Talismans for everything from attraction spells, scrying protection, protection from cancer to evil spirits and jealous people. Who has not seen a lucky rabbit foot (+1 luck bonus).
To people who practice these things the "magic" is real. I would think to a dark age person in europe, faeries, witches, devils and angels are real and so are the spells and magic they use to make life unpleasant were real. Everday people invoke thier own luck, with prayers and incantations. I do.
Anyway just another perspective on the whole high low magic thingy
The Caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. A character who takes a break from item creation to adventure shuld keep track of how many days of work remain on that item.My bad I was remembering some outdated rules when I posted. But the concept remains the same. Kidnap him, make him fight, knock him out for a couple of days, draw him away on business - or use the old rules on interruption for at least part of the process. That combined with reasearch time would make magic much rarer - IF that is your goal.
...every day I see people offering divination into the future on TV. A person can easily purchase Tarot cards, ouija boards, and that crazy eightball to perform divination magic. People in Malaysia where tatoos for protection. Some are even possessed by the spirits of these tatoos. Wooo, magic! On Maui people sell crystal Talismans for everything from attraction spells, scrying protection, protection from cancer to evil spirits and jealous people. Who has not seen a lucky rabbit foot (+1 luck bonus).
It'd be a fun idea to have real magic and folk "magic" take a real and more central focus in games. I like the idea that there are some magic items you can buy in stores but that just don't work and you can't really know beforehand. Maybe some were genuinely magic, but the spells they contained wore off or went bad over time. Others were likely never magical but just worked over by some folk belief or another.
How about "folk" magic items that do work magic, but are completely devoid of any stat reason for working? Heck, is it just a coinsidence that the player keeps rolling natural 20's after the character buys a good luck talisman? It would be fun to justify situations like this with "magic". Is everything a coinsidence--or is nothing? These kinds of questions we ask in the real world. It'd be a good chance to toss some of that ambiguity into our game worlds too.