"Save or lose" abilities get a lot less cute at higher levels when fights should be epic. Sure up to level 5 it was nice when you could make the pirate captain fall asleep, but at the level where hundreds of damage are being thrown around its boring to say "Welp failed a save fight over". My suggestion is investing in some battlefield control abilities. All the special defenses in the world don't matter if you don't directly target them.
It's not about save or lose, it's about debuffs that require a save, which most of them do. Except for slumber, there are very few save or lose hexes, and many creatures are immune to that at this level anyway.
I suggest you look at the posts before answering, or at least check out the Witch class, not much battlefield control there.
To the OP, here's a mini-spoiler if you care to read it. It doesn't actually reveal any of the plot or anything, but it may not be something you want to hear:
** spoiler omitted **
There is no doubt that the GM is using creatures with higher saves - last fight we encountered a White Great Wyrm, which I believe is one or two magnitudes greater than what I assume the module introduced.
Using a CR 18 creature against a level 16 party is fine by me, especially when it's a solo encounter, but it also means my save DCs are rather weak. The monsters SRD entrance had only +19 will listed, but using spells it can easily be raised to +22, which means a 5 is enough to save against my Hexes.
I am not sure if the GM actually has raised the saves, or simply rolled very high in general on them, as well as equipping the monsters smartly. I think overuse of high-cr monsters is the actual problem, but we shall have to see how the rest of the RotRL plays out.
In the fight I mentioned I was unable to have the dragon fail saves against me, but on the other hand I had several useful things to do, such as Dispelling it, buffing my party, casting Heal, and most importantly, using Dimmension Door agressively to let my party full attack the dragon who was using hit&run tactics against us.
In any case, thanks for tips to those around here.
Why do you hate the Misfortune Hex? It's simply a debuff, and it can be saved against as easily as anything else. I can understand banning the Slumber hex, which is OP against certain enemies, but Misfortune is quite often the only hex I have to use against certain enemies (undead, golems etc.) which there are many of in the RotRL campaign.
If i wanted to rely on summons, I would play a Summoner or maybe a druid. normal wizard summons are sometimes useful, but for example the level 8 summon creature list is extremely short and mostly has evil creatures. And witches don't have much in utility spells, compared to wizards.
This class was fun when my hexed tend to work, not so fun now.
wraithstrike wrote:
The misfortune hex is a powerful ability, and if you have a high DC and the GM's has not jacked up the monster's save it can be terrible for the enemy especially if you couple with another debuff from yourself or another caster. Since it can be extended with cackle it can make things really bad.
Remember it doesn't just affect one roll. It works for every d20 roll as long as it is active. Couple it with Evil Eye and things can get a lot worse.
Exactly.
I don't hate the misfortune hex, but it is too powerful. I've had it ruin 1 campaign as a GM and seen it ruin another campaign as a player. In the second case the other player which played the witch decided of his own volition to stop using it because it was ruining the encounters, which we are surprisingly also playing RoTRL.
Slumber is only a problem against single enemies, that is an easy fix. I can add another enemy/enemies, even a weak one(s) to wake up a target where it would be appropriate. Usually most fights in APs require me to add the advanced template, max hp, and add some minions to keep the fights challenging for the party (they're fairly well optimized).
Misfortune isn't just a simple debuff, it's roll twice and pray to the RNG gods that you roll high twice. Misfortune can take the...
Well it's fair that you warn the players of the house rule beforehand, in my game that is unfortunately not always the case as the DM is fairly inexperienced with PF, and also have limited time to tweak rules outside of game.
Slumber isn't only a problem against single enemies IMO, as it takes them out a whole round when it works, even if a minion wakes them up. Against a BBEG, a round of doing nothing is horrible assuming the party can take advantage of it, and in some cases they can even CDG the BBEG so the combat is over (except for minions). Save or unconscious can be gamebreaking, and Slumber hex is just one example.
Misfortune is however simply a debuff, but a very good one (about -5 at worst, as someone pointing out). The fact that it stacks with normal penalties makes it possible to debuff an enemy into oblivion, assuming it fails the saves, especially if you stack with Evil eye, Bestow curse, any kind of fear or sickened penalty, and Enervation the BBEG is reduced to a completely harmless creature in pure combat ability (but not with SLAs, spells, SUs etc.).
This is much harder to pull off in practice though. First of all, the range of 30' is extremely limiting - my character is squishy, and have to use a lot of spells and resources to amend this. Encounters often start outside the 30' range area too, and thus I can't always use the first move action for Cackle - until 8th level that meant I could not use Misfortune in the first round, but had to move into position and then try Evil eye. You also need to keep up that cackle, which is easily broken simply by moving away, using teleport, dimm door etc which BBEGs have been doing a lot in the RotRL campaign. Once they are outside, Misfortune is off and can never be reapplied that day.
And lastly, action economy for witches sucks. Most are Standard actions, and cackle is move action except for using the Blouse. By the time I have used evil eye, misfortune and possibly a third debuff, the barbarian of the party has easily done 300-400 damage - enough to outright kill the BBEG. My actions only help this, it does not actually take out enemies.
My options are limited. I have some weak direct damage spells, but often at higher level than wizards, and this has always been weak - a firebal doing about 30 damage, which is even less than a single strike from the barbarian or smiting Paladin. I waste my time and my party's time if i attempt this - last time I used a maximized Lightning bolt the enemy easily shrugged it off.
Except for the really good ones, most hexes are crap. Breathe swamp water? Talk to birds? Most of them are like low-level spells, yet weaker due to duration or limitations on uses per day. If you see any good hex I haven't though of that actually affects many enemies and are worthwhile to use in combat, please let me know, but as far as I can see, Evil Eye and Misfortune are the best ones, except maybe for Slumber against certain enemies.
My spells are likewise the same, it's a very limited list compared to Sorc/Wiz, and most of them are amusing debuff spells that are esily negated with a saving throws. Even Irresistible Dance is now quite resistible (damn you Paizo).
My most useful spells as noted is Greater dispel magic against BBEGs who cast magic, and helping the party with heroism, see invisible, true seeing etc. Unlike most of my party, I need a lot of spellup to be somewhat hard to hit for enemies, and I can't really compete against the tough melee monsters.
I like my prehensile hair hex, and I often use it for delivering tough, but in combat the to hit is generally too weak (about +20 when buffed), and the damage of 13-16 is pathetic compared to the brawlers of the party. It means I can't really do that even as a backup, except maybe against really weak enemies (although I did actually finish of a Wendigo like that!) ;)
But this thread isn't all about Misfortune, it's the fact that most of my spells and Hexes are will negates or will (useless), and I feel I have often little to contribute with in combat compared to the damage dealers, and the druid who now can do hundreds of damage with a spell (fire seeds, 8d8+128 per spell).
The good thing about Misfortune? It allows me to debuff an enemy, which helps the party quite a lot, while yet keeping them in combat so it's not all over - and except for the brawling only BBEG they can still do a lot of dangerous stuff to the party. However, there need to be at least a decent chance (25% or higher) of the hex working, or it's just a waste of time.
@Sani:
Witch level is not the same as caster level.
Caster level uses the witch class level + modifiers.
The only way to raise your witch level is to ... level up, unless you get something like Druids Belt for witch hexes.
Also the item Hexing Runes adds +1 to one hex, chosen at the start of the day.
The witching corset seems fairly useless, as few of my powers rely on caster level (only the healing ones, and they are fairly capped out). Also, I have a robe of archmagi which is superior in general.
Hexing runes seems right on the spot. The problems will be to find someone who can make it, or to find it in the stores - not every item in the books are available.
@Claxon:
Why do you hate the Misfortune Hex? It's simply a debuff, and it can be saved against as easily as anything else. I can understand banning the Slumber hex, which is OP against certain enemies, but Misfortune is quite often the only hex I have to use against certain enemies (undead, golems etc.) which there are many of in the RotRL campaign.
If i wanted to rely on summons, I would play a Summoner or maybe a druid. normal wizard summons are sometimes useful, but for example the level 8 summon creature list is extremely short and mostly has evil creatures. And witches don't have much in utility spells, compared to wizards.
This class was fun when my hexed tend to work, not so fun now.
It is merely an example. I'll go ahead and state that most every table would find a 22 Intelligence starting out almost unheard of in a normal game (though with that race, 20 point buy, and sacrificing the SLA for an extra +2 Intelligence via the Variant Aasimar Abilities, it is certainly possible), and that if an Intelligence-based Caster could pull it off, they would definitely do it.
Even so, that's just 1 Intelligence modifier off from what could otherwise occur in regards to DCs, so it's certainly not unreasonable to hit very close to those numbers that I mentioned.
Again, targeting the proper saving throws is the biggest key to making sure that effects stick to the bad guys. Sometimes you might have to resort to just blasting the peons that the BBEG throws at you; you'd still be contributing, by keeping the peons off of the key party members doing their job of slaying the BBEG.
I try to target the correct saves, but it is tricky as almost every monster is custom to the module, and the DM is not very forthcoming on the information even when I succeed rather high Knowledge checks. He probably considers save modifers as metagame knowledge.
Also, I have few useful powers or spells that target reflex saves, mostly just AoE damage, which is almost useless compared to melee damage.
@wraithstrike:
My witch was level 15, now just becoming level 16. I haven't picked all 8th level spells yet, but I have used Prediction of Failure somewhat successfully as it works even on a successful save.
Ill Omen (1st level) is also excellent as it has no save, but only 3 dire rolls is not good enough when a monster has 3-5 attacks per round, plus attacks of opportunity, I mainly use it to make my hexes have a better chance of succeeding.
Monster saves: I don't know their exact save, I can only give my impression. The DM has told me he often rolls high on save, and I don't think he generally fudges these.
I'm assuming few saves are very much higher than 20-22, even for solos. That still means my old save DC 25 is a very easy roll, and my only chance of making it work is to combine Evil Eye and Ill Omen.
Save or die/out: I generally don't use these, as I prefer to debuff the enemy and Sleep Hex often fails due to immunity to sleep. I have used it successfully vs humanoid and giant enemies with low saves.
My witch: Patron is Time, mainly for Haste and the future Time Stop.
Offensive hexes:
Evil Eye
Slumber
Misfortune
Scar
Cackle
Ice Tomb
Prehensile hair
I often use the Healing hexes too.
Offensive spells: In addition to those already mentioned, I often use Greater Dispel, Waves of Exhaustion, Feeblemind and Frostbite.
@Orfamay Quest
I do use some of these already, but Enervation is a good suggestion that I should try to use more often. Summon Monster VIII might be a good pick now, as the monster have very useful abilities and spells. In combat however, they are fairly incompetent at hitting and dealing damage, and we have a druid that summons a lot of elementals.
@Darksol the Painbringer
I'm pretty sure starting with 22 in any attribute would be banned at this table, even starting with 20 is very rare and requires neglecting otherwise useful stats. A +5 inherent tome costs 137k alone, which would be entire budget for magical items the last 4-5 levels at least. A +2 is affordable, but it is also fairly wasteful as afaik you would have to buy and read a better book to increase it.
For your monsters, my DM is probably thinking like you, giving them buff items and such. To a certain agree it is good and expected (the Bestiary entries are woefully inadequate for this), but if taken too far it makes it impossible to affect them. Ok, against a Balor BBEG I would be ok with not expecting it to fail a will save, but I would hope he would fail on something other than a natural one. Him needing a 6 or 10 is ok with me, but if he makes it on a 2 it means my actions are in vain.
Arms Race: No I dont expect to win this, but it is there, and for a short time a DM or player is in the "lead". If i don't continously improve, monsters are too hard, if the DM doesen't continuously raise the challenge, encounters gets too easy. The DM can arbitrarily just give a huge boost to a monster, but I don't think he will, I think he generally plays by the rules. He just refuses to discuss issues that comes due to my character being gimped.
I will probably leave the game after the RotRL is done (for several reasons, not just this one), but this is the only time I've played at this level and I want to know the ending of the tale.
I played a witch in Kingmaker and I felt your pain. I either shut the encounter down in a couple rounds or I stood around twiddling my thumbs since everything was immune to mind-affecting.
My advice is pick spells or use magic items to round out your hexes. In fights where my hexes didn't work well, I'd buff my party.
I found the witch a rather boring character to play because as you say you pretty much do the same thing every combat.
Also, if the DM is getting a 34 on a low roll he is screwing you over. I hope that's a boss encounter. Those saves are way too high otherwise, nobody is going to beat those very often unless you are mythic.
Yep, I do buff my party, but other than Heroism, False Life and Haste, I don't have that many buffs. Clerics and druids are better support characters IMO. My job I thought was to debuff the enemy, so that the group can take them out more easily. And debuffing is fun, if I can get the spells and hexes to work.
My example is a sort of boss encounter, where a single monster attacks the whole party. I don't mind that it has a good save, I just think it is a bit too good.
The main problem is that the DM was scared and wanted to nerf the witch on low-mid level, and now the party melee goons are so good at what they do that the DM has to run monsters of CR 2-3 levels higher than the party level constantly to challenge these. It makes sense, as if the party can flank and full attack they do 300-400 damage in a very quick time, yet it also means the Saves of these monsters are much higher than intended. Of course, me complaining is viewed as "whining" so the only thing I can do is to improve my character or stop playing.
Hello, I play a Witch. I know a lot here things it's an OP class that can take down enemies left and right faster than anyone, but my experience has been the opposite lately.
Sure, around 10th level it was easy to Sleep giants and other brutes with low saves, but now at 15-16th level the enemies generally have either immunity to mind affecting or just very high will saves.
My current save DC for hexes is 25 - after trying to affect a creature with the Misfortune Hex, I realized that the DC was way too low.
What I did: Evil Eye hex (target was immune)
Quickened Ill Omen spell (worked, despite high SR)
Misfortune Hex: DM rolled low on a die, getting "only" 34 on the save.
Now that's just one encounter, but I notice that most of the time I am unable to affect creatures we encounter except for secondary effects, and I just have to assume they will save. This makes playing a witch becomes just the same routine: Quickened Haste for the group, use Evil eye to debuff, and cackle. Cleanse and repeat. It surely helps the party (unless the enemy is undead or otherwise immune to evil eye), but it also means that 80% of my abilities are unused.
Ok, that was a bit longer than intended. So back to the original question: How can I boost the will save for my hexes, and maybe spells?
- Ability focus is banned, as it is a monster only feat.
- Headband of Int is capped out.
- Inherent bonus to Int is way too expensive - I might get some, but so far nothing has been found either in loot or for sale.
Spell focus: These require two feats, and unfortunately don't work for Hexes, which are more useful.
So it seems to me there little I can do when the enemies have +25-+30 on will saves. Next level the DC will be 27 due to Int and half level for hexes, but thats as good as it gets. I would need about +5 more to be able to affect monsters about 50% of the time.
In comparison, the melee fighters in the group generally hits with multiple attacks, sometimes even all of them. They only miss on a 2-4 roll against high AC monsters.
There are a lot of variables - like just how deadly the 40k robots are and how vicious they are.
1. If the robots are vicious bastards and will use the populace as hostages/shields etc - then a big chunk of them will die anyway if the city is retaken through conventional means.
2. How hard would it be for the 150k army to retake the city? How many of them would die? Do they have a high chance of failure? Etc.
3. Many other variables which you haven't mentioned.
But - nuking certainly isn't EVIL given the circumstances. Not unless you want to argue that every army which used bombing during WWII was evil. Which was all of them. (bombing was not anywhere nearly as precise as today - even just aiming at military targets they knew that they'd kill civilians too - and it was called carpet bombing for a reason)
All the major playerd in Ww2 comitted war crimes which can definitely be called Evil. Even the Allies deliberatetly targeted innocent civillians in bombing raids, where the purpose was to kill as many as possible to instill terror.
The people who did it where not necessarily Evil though, it's not hard to make good or neutral people do horrible things.
Attacking the robots in the city will probably result in colateral damage, but the nuke thing will kill a lot more for sure, so should not be used unless one has to.
It seems like there's something wrong with your math since the shortsword and the greataxe both have the same chance to hit. Let's analyze the situation where the enemy AC is 19. As you said, we won't get into crit threats.
Mw. Greataxe: Average damage per hit is 16.5. The +8 attack is 50% likely to hit (11 or up) and +3 attack is 25% likely to hit (16 or up). That's 75% altogether, so that's 12.375 average damage.
Mw. shortsword and mw. heavy shield: Average damage for both weapons is 6.5 since you've got Double Slice and presumably a spiked shield. The chance to hit is the same, but there are twice as many attacks, so multiply by 1.5 to get 9.75.
+2 battleaxe (maybe): If this is really a +2 axe then at +9 to hit with Power Attack it would do 1d8+9 damage for an average of 13.5 per hit. Your percentage would go up to 85% for 11.475 damage.
If that's really a +2 axe then using it with a shield for defense it might be your best bet for the moment. I'd probably go with the TWF since that seems to be what your PC is built for though. Incidentally, I think your average DPR when using Power Attack with TWF would end up being around 10.45. You'd also have the chance of adding a lot of extra damage against favored enemies and set yourself up to take the Shield Slam feat soon. I highly advise Shield Slam.
Remember, you can always attack with just one weapon when you need greater accuracy, and you could even drop your shortsword and use the shield two-handed if you needed a little extra damage and accuracy. Don't give up that AC bonus and the chance to push foes around.
Just to clarify, the mw greataxe has the same to hit as the mw shortsword overall. Both are at +8 when using power attack (-2/+6) or TWF (-2/-2).
The battleaxe does not give +2 bonus damage unfortunately, so right now it's only "better-than-masterwork" (dwarfcraft). So it deals 1d8+7 one-handed with power attack, or 1d8+10 two-handed PA.
My main shield is spiked and dual masterwork (attack and defense). I also recently inherited a runeshield that may have some magical power I'm not sure of, but probably less good at bashing, we'll see. Still, 1d4 vs 1d6 isn't that big of a deal, as long as it's masterwork.
Shield slam looks very interesting, it's practically a situational free trip. Besides, it looks cool, and can be made to full attack, then push foe ,then 5-step back forcing them to lose full attack.
Since I have no weapon focus, I am fairly free to vary weapons and attacks comparing to what I'm facing. Against favored enemy I might do 4 attacks with power attack (10/10/5/5) for 1d6+11 each. which is pretty damn good. Against humans in armor just one-hand power attack or normal TWF. Didn't think of slamming with the shield in both hands, faster than discarding the shield I suppose.
Also note that the GM lets weapon focus apply to all in a weapon group, so I could pick axes and use handaxe, battleaxe and greataxe all with the bonus. Or just get the shield slam first.
Oh, I don't get spells at all. Favored enemy sure helps when I meat them, and the type of enemy is really plentiful in this campaign.
Greataxe surely does more damage (and the special battleaxe with two hands trades 6.5 average for 4.5 and +1 to hit).
That shield bonus really does help though. AC 19 vs AC 17 matters a lot when most enemies have +7 or +8 to hit, sometimes less with power attack. If I meet something with really high to-hit I'd ditch the shield for two-handed grip, but then I'd probably run anyway ;)
Also, we don't factor crits into this - 4 attack are 4 times the chance of a threat - if I could only confirm them that'd be great.
Retraining a feat would not be enough, I'd have to change my combat style (twf) as well, doubt the GM would approve.
Thanks for the feedback anyhow, I'd appreciate anyone else theorizing it too :)
I play a ranger in a heavily restricted game. As such I can't expect to get magic to enhance my character, and thus the choice of weapons is more important.
So far I'm using mw shortsword and mw heavy shield, using Improved TWF, Imp. Shield Bash and Double Slice. The attack bonus at 6th level is +8/+8+/+3/+3 for 1d6+3 damage each, nothing to brag about. Worse, my secondary attacks struggle to hit normally armored foes (AC 17-20 is typical in the game).
As an option I can use a single weapon like mw greataxe and Power Attack for +8/+3 1d12+10, but at a loss of my shield (AC 19 isn't great, but still wards off a lot of attacks that get close).
I just got a new battleaxe (possibly magical) with +2 bonus from masterwork. I can use it with a shield for better to-hit, but losing out of a lot of attacks or damage.
Given these very limited options, what should I go for? I suppose if I meet someone with very low AC the 4 attacks are always the best, but suppose the enemy has AC 19 - which combo of attacks and/or power attack would be best?
I think you have your answer, by RAW it won't work as thematically as you want.
Easy house rule: Allow automatic Threat if the target is unable to effectively defend themselves (unaware, threatened into submission, etc.). It will pretty much autokill low level NPCs while not really mattering that much to higher level PCs and NPCs. Note that this steals some of the cool stuff from Sneak Attack, while at the same time boosting classes good at stealth.
Since you need to confirm the crit, AC still applies.
Hags Eye is 1 min/lvl so useless outside room to room scouting.
What is this magical ring og colors you arw talking about? My money is spent on a hags blouse, but tiny animal is pretty much the goos thing about Animal Skin.
My reply failed when I lost connection. So good suggestion with ice tomb, accursed hex dont work on failed saves (and saving vs healing to get extra is banned here).
Any animals I havent thought of that could help for purposes other than disguises?
My witch is now 10th lvl and can take her first Major Hex. I want either Ice Tomb, Major Healing or Animal Skin. The latter would enable her to change animal forms as easily as one changes clothes (plus a std. Action), limited only by the pelts she can get and Beast Shape II stats.
However she won't be able to cast spells in animal form, and she already has the Fly Hex on in most combats. Hexes work, I even persuaded my gm to allow Prehensile Hair, however in animal form she gets -5 on it as a secondary attack due to attaining actual natural attacks. Str 9 means that those are completely useless even in large sized forms.
Afaik the only real gain is natural armor and permanent fly, scent etc. Darkvision would be nice, but no animals have it, and my witch is an Elf.
More healing on the other hand is welcome in a party with no cleric (just a Pally), and Ice Tomb is awesome vs undead and those others immune to mind effects and Sleep (Slumber Hex).
The party already has a druid who uses beast chape in combat, so Animal skin kinda his ball game.
Any tips? Or are there animals I don't know about that can make a great difference? Im playing Rise of the Runelords and we know we're going up into snow covered mountains soon.
Abilities that boosts DCs of "x spells and effects" should apply. For example, an ability that adds +1 DC to Sleep spells and effects should apply to Slumber Hex. And the elf +2 to save vs enchantment spells and effects will work against enchantment hexes.
Where does it say total concealment is not the same as being invisible? I know you can turn that argument upside down, but a rules interpretation is not necessarily a house rule. Having a natural 20 on attack roll not being auto-hit is an example of a house rule.
Being able to shield bash is a valid point, but that only matters for twf builds, and you can always go heavy shield and light weapon unless youre a caster.
So it seems like a very small niche for this shield, and I've yet to see someone use it (years of gaming). At least you don't seem to think the boost to CE feat is OP, and it gives the shield a slight versatility for the sword and board maneuver oriented fighter.
I had initially planned to let them double the dodge regardless of enchantment, would that be OP? That means you would get +10 dodge from CE at 16th level
Right now light shields are fairly useless, mostly a cheap buckler that still requires a hand most of the time.
In RL light shields and bucklers (used in one hand, not strapped to the arm) become popular in the middle ages often replacing the viking or norman style large shields.
So the crunch:
allow light shields or bucklers wielded in one hand to double the bonus from Combat Expertise, to a maximum of the armor bonus from the shield. This means an 8th level fighter with a +2 light shield could get +6 dodge rather than +3 from using combat expertise. This extra dodge is lost if the shield is used to attack with, even with Improved Shield bash.
Those without the feat might as well use light shields.
I was considering using your gunslinger against my 10th level party. But then I realize: If he gets a full attack against one of them he will shoot down or kill that PC in one round, and thats without using the double barrel!
Can we not get into a discussion about the intent of that spell. If the writer of the rules text wanted it to only work on harmful hexes, they should have put it in the rules text. Besides, creative uses of spells are half of the fun of playing a caster.
After all, doing hilarious things things like using stone to flesh as a wall breaching tool is something I doubt that the writer of that spell thought of, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't work.
I disagree, I think it was intended for that. Actually, it was intended for turning stone into flesch, which could have many uses.
This is the case of a spell being made without taking into account the beneficial hexes that are otherwise very limited. Its' simply poorly balanced as is, and many GMs would be right to simply ban it.
Fun ideas in here, but I have to tell you the device for controlling the golems are not in the party's hands. It was too heavy to lug around, so they simply had the golems smash it up before they left.
It's not the only one of it's kind though, so if they try to use them against another enemy base they could be in for a suprprise ;)
The golems also continually chant "Ragor", the name of the wizard who controls them now, as the rogue who UMD'ed the device wasn't quite sure how to do that :) It's basically a magic mouth chanting in the rogue's voice, as golems don't talk.
The Sleep spell causes the targets to fall asleep. Helpless is not an additional condition imposed on them, or the only condition, it is stayed so that the DM and players know that sleeping characters are considered helpless and thus can be CDG'ed.
Back in the olden days being subjected to a haste spell would age all the targets 1 year. Consequently it was used sparingly and not frequently abused as it is now.
Healing was something you did not do during combat unless it was an emergency. Cure light wounds had a 5 segment casting time while daggers only had a 2 segment attack speed. And there was no concentration skill.
Player: I cast cure light wounds.
GM: Okay but he's got a dagger. It's got an attack speed of 2 so he gets to attack you two and a half times before your healing spell goes off and if he hits once you lose the spell. Get no healing, nothing.
Player: I know I know but we really need this damn it!
Except that while the dagger had an attack speed of 2 the guy wielding it only had 1 attack per round so it all came down to how the group interpreted the inconsistencies in the initiative rules.
Assuming you are referring to AD&D (1st or 2nd ed.), it there is no speed "segment". Weapon speeds are just added to the initative roll, so the dagger guy is more likely to go before the healer. 1d10+5 vs 1d10+2, lowest go first.
Cure spells (and damage spells) were generally more powerful due to the fact that everyone had low hit points and did a fairly low amount of damage. There was no power attack, and most did not have damage bonus from strength.
YOU as GM gave them the loot, and allowed crafting.
DON'T PUNISH THE PLAYERS FOR IT!
With that said... You said the chars are well equipped... How well? If they only are a bit over the limit, don't go to extremes to remove their loot.
Are your players having fun? If yes, don't break it.
How to challenge them:
Use environment
Use terrain
Use mooks
Use intelligent tactics for intelligent foes
Remember that bringing Golems when teleporting ain't easy...
How do the chars arrange sleeping?
How many encounters do you use between rests?
You mentioned AC.
How are their saves? Touch AC?
Woah, take it easy bacon. No on said anything about punishing the players. I allowed crafting because I generally allow the core rules of the game. They got the loot because they fought for it and took it from really powerful NPCs mostly, or sometimes stole/confiscated stuff (100k gp letter once).
As i said I want to give them encounters that have little or no loot for awhile to get them back to more ordinary levels.
Intelligent tactics are all well and nice if the enemy can get the drop on the group, but they often don't due to high Perception skills and generous use of See Invisibility and the like. My players are also smart and extremely experienced (we're talking 20+ years of D&D each) in combat tactics and dealing with pretty much anything.
I also strive to keep my game reasonable, that is not just throw encounters and monsters at them for no good reason and because the game says x encounters between rests. If they decide to take on 1 encounter and then rest, they will as long as they take means to protect themselves during the rest.
Last game was essentially a dungeon crawl full of intelligent enemies working together, many of which had magical abilities or SR. I'd say they were fairly challenged as they wasted some good spells on mooks, and 2 of the PCs were severaly depleted on hit points in some of the fights. And the cannon golems really scared the wizards who were shot at before they brought in Iron Golem reinforcements, so they are not invulnerable.
However, I have used the same kind of enemies against them a bit too long now, and now I have the chance to have encounters completely unrelated to the main plot/BBEG.
Some extra info I might not have mentioned:
The PCs have a magic ship (cog) that can be held in one hand or made into full-size at command. The hold of the ship essentially works as a pocket plane, and it is crewed by ghostly apparitions that works almost like Unseen Servants, but of course have no earthly needs. This was a gift by a large pirate organization they helped earlier.
I have not yet decided how tough this ship is, or if it is as easily destroyed as a normal ship, although obviously it is a magic item. Capsizing it because of plot isn't something I want to do though.
-PCs generally sleep normally, although some probably have rings of sustenance and they generally have a watch.
-Golems are not easy to teleport, but quite possible as it has no SR and golems are willing. They need probably two spells to move everyone though.
-encounters between rests: Normally 0. I don't plan lots of encounters and then parcel them out like prescription pills, but encourage them to press on if they are in the middle of clearing a "dungeon" or some such due to time limits.
-Saves are good for Will, some have ok fortitude, and the rogue has good reflex of course. But nothing extreme for anyone.
-Touch AC: Helps a lot against most of them. Greater Wraiths are bad news for them, unless they are prepared with spells. Normal Shadows will generally miss them, except for the cleric.
Sneak attacks by beefed up rust monsters or disenchanters, sent by their arch-nemesis.
Those are the kind of things that can cut them down to size, but... all the players I've known in the last 30 years have had an almost obsessive attachment to their gear. Many would rather die and start a new character than give up even one cherished item. So it's a dicey strategy.
Aside from that, you simply have to raise the CR of their adversaries. Average CR +5 or more... plus multiple opponents rather than single boss-type encounters.
This said, around 10th level is where I personally start loosing interest, both as a DM and as a player. The PCs begin to get too powerful, and any really challenging encounter takes *hours* to prepare and more *hours* to run. But if you're into the high-level stuff, your only real answer is to use ever more challenging encounters.
Good luck!
This is pretty much the same for me as well, which is why I am asking for advice from the rest.
To the rest of you, there are some good suggestions there, but remember I don't want a TPK, and I'm not really planning on trying to steal or destroy their items (the latter is easily fixed by magic anyway). I think having a series of low-loot encounters should fix the item imbalance after awhile.
As for items, they are not divided evenly in the party as the Drow and the Cleric came in later and started with less loot than the rest. It's more the fact that they have stuff like headband of int, wis +6 and belt of dex, con +6m which they have looted from high level NPCs.
They have not actually had time to craft in a long while, and some of them have never had any time for crafting (said drow wizard and cleric). Since they are going in a sea voyage in their own magical ship (custom item/minor artifact) they will spend downtime crafting on board, which I don't mind overly much.
Things I have already started with:
1. Use NPCs with high class level but very low HP and reduced class abilities to lower the CR - for example a 10th level "fighter" with only 12 hp and a lot less feats, but can still actually hit their AC (adjusted to CR 5).
2. Use more single use items, often before combat. Oil of greater magic weapon +3 instead of +2 weapon for example.
Sea trolls: yeah I could do some of those, the normal trolls are pretty much useless though (+8 attack vs AC 30+). Using trolls, I'd have to use something like this just to have a chance to wound them:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/unique-monsters/cr-10/hurek-and-durek
And that gets tedious fast due to regeneration and lots of hit points, not to mention giving them more loot anyway.
Sauhuagin city thing is interesting, but in the end it could lead into big fights and the PC looting their king or something like that.
Demons, Devils and... angels? Would probably work, but there should be a reason they are attacked by such by travelling on the sea where normal merchants do travel. I'm considering throwing a militairy vessel or two at them (war galley with 50-100 marines) maybe using some sort of formation or mob rule (swarm?) to allow them to be hit by a rain of arrows or mass of swords. In fact such an encounter would be more fun if the PCs believe they are dangerous (and really they should, even to 10th level party), and tries to bluff or negotiate with them.
Pirates can be done of course, and they will travel through a strait that is famous for pirates, but still can be a bit dull, and again to challenge them I'd need magic items.
Under the sea!
Fights are more dire
Without the fire
Plus, hard to see!
Get the heroes into the drink
Watch as their golems quickly sink!
A new perspective
Laughs and invective
Under the sea!
Had to; but yeah, the biggest threat to a party like that may well be the ocean itself. With plenty of aquatic critters, you can even sketch out an adventure if they work out the problems of playing in the pool.
Nice one! They actually did fight underwater against Reef Golems once under the sea (and two ships).
How did they get a magical device that lets them control golems? Is this a custom magic item?
100 points of damage a round is not really too hard at level 10, but how is a rogue doing it? Is it using the archetype that allows it to double sneak attack damage?
I will discuss the crafting in another post I make.
Also give an example of them taking on enemies that are "level(maybe you meant CR") 13-15.
Yes, it's a custom magic item used by their enemies to render control of their own Golems to militairy personell. This gives one of the players the abiltiy to give verbal commands to these two Golems as if he was the creator, but unbeknownst to them the real creator could easily override that at a later point ;)
I didn't really think they would matter much until they tore down a Cannon Golem (CR 15) in 1 round or two.
The opposition was premade NPCs, of those levels I mentioned. That pesky Illusionist managed to get off a Phantasmal Web before the enemies could act, affecting almost everyone including the enemy wizard. If not I think those enemies could have been dangerous, especially if the enemy did a maximized fireball or two on them. Strangely enough blast spells are their greatest weakness.
The Rogue deals the most damage when his enemies are flat-footed (Sap Master), but even with normal sneak attack and good weapons he can dish out 4 attack doing about 20-30 damage each, not counting crits. He still struggles against high AC opponents though unlike the Magus (+5 weapon due to class ability). The latter relies on 15-20 crit weapon and spells like Shocking grasp or Vampiric Touch.
So far the highest level NPC they killed was a 16th level fully equipped Diviner made by Ravingdork. It was an extremey tough fight which made two PCs into glass, but he was shot down in Dragon form (after killing the Drow with his breath weapon) by two high level pirates with Ballistas and Improved Vital Strike.
My party consists of 5 10th level PCs: 1 Illusionist, 1 Drow Void wizard, 1 Half-Elf Magus, 1 Rogue and 1 Cleric (Freedom based Deity).
They have a lots of high-powered magic items, both looted from enemies and crafted themselves. Front line PCs have AC between 37 and 31, the rest are generally either invisible or has mirror image active when they expect fight.
The Illusionist generally does battlefield control, the Void wizard summons or buffs/debuffs, the Magus does tanking and direct damage, and the Rogue has also become something of a striker, sometimes dealing more than 100 damage in a round.
No, Im not saying these are extreme munchkins, just that I have difficulty challenging them with enemies that are not several levels higher than themselves, they recently beat an enemy group of level 13-15.
Oh and they just picked up 2 Iron Golems as "loot", taking control of them with a magic device, making them far more powerful in stand-up fights as well.
Now they are about to undertake a long journey by ship, so what kind of challenges can I throw at them that will still be interesting? A typical pirate ship will just give them that ship as loot, and typical sea monsters can get tiresome after a couple.
There is nothing wrong to want a game with more organic PCs. Some people here think it's blasphemy to have a game where your character won't find the butterfly sword you want specialization in, or not being able to play any build in the minmax forums.
The trick is to tell the players beforehand to not rely on overspecialization, and that not all concepts will work ahead of time. Planning is allowed, but may be a waste of time. That way most players make chars that have more optiond - 13 int and dex fighters opens up a chain of feats that might be useful, rather than sinking everything in str. Taking feats and skills according to what one encounters can be helpful as recurring enemies can be dealth with more easily. My players usually mix it up.. plan a concept and needed feats, but change some and leave room for organic growth.
Without checking the text, Im pretty sure the disguise is visual only. The guard dogs foiling this first level spell is very reasonable. If you want to beat that Alter Self will work, and maybe also poweful illusions such as Veil.
The easy way to solve this ingame is simply to have the party tell the NPC that their company should end. "Sorry, thats not the criteria we're looking for right now. Here's your share and good luck." Now if the GM ignores that and forces you to bring the NPC, then talk it over with him and explain it's not fun.
AC 25 at level 3? That's a bit much unless the thing was hitting like a newborn kitten. A character or NPC should be sacrificing a lot of offense in order to pump their defense to such heights. That, or your DM is pretty vicious. If this is what you can look forward to in the future, I'd definitely go with Arcane Strike.
Yeah, AC 25 is high for level 5 (Monster Creation table suggests 21 at CR 6). I'm hoping it was a tiny or diminutive creature that did 1d3-1 on a hit...like a 3-week old kitten, maybe.
Or it was a well built NPC. It's not that hard. If you're using traits on NPCs, you can get it without magical gear.
Full plate
Heavy shield
Dex of 12
trait that gives +1 with heavy armor (forget what it's called)
shield focus feat
Heck - my bard hit AC25 by level 3 or 4. (forget which)
I didn't say it was impossible, I said he'd have to sacrifice offense in order to have an AC like that. Spending your limited resources on full plate, a trait on increasing your armour bonus, a feat on increasing your shield bonus (and two feats to get heavy armour proficiency for your bard) means that you've sacrificed your offense and should be hitting like a newborn kitten while sporting your 25 AC. You've invested all your resources into defense.
I doubt he meant his bard used full plate, he was pointing out how easy it is to build NPCs with high AC.
It's not even that much of a sacrfice: A CR 5 fighter level 6 (tough but appropriate challenge for a 3rd level party) can easily afford both a full plate and shield, and still have enough money for a +1 sword and potions. Traits are essentially free if the DM allows it for all, and using one out of the Figher's 7 feats or more is not that bad. The rest can still be used to buff damage etc.
However every monster and npc the party fights at level 3 should not be like that, if so the bard should use attack spells instead. AC 25? Sure, I struggle to hit. You don't have +15 Will saves? Guess this Hideous Laughter might work then.
...a bit of a noob here, but couldn't his DM just rule something like the katana can be treated as a race appropriate weapon if the character is from the area where katanas are common? I mean, logically the only reason a katana is a exotic weapon is because it's well, exotic meaning foreign to western settings. I mean, would a rapier be a exotic weapon in Tian?
A katana is basically a two handed sword designed for slashing, right?
No and yes - everyone has proficiency with it as a martial weapon, and only special duelists/swordsmen use it one handed and take exotic proficiency.
However i suppose in order to get dex to damage you would need to be able to use a katana as a one handed weapon.
As i read it ranged weapons have a max range of 10 increments so maximum distanxe should be range + range x10...stated that range of the weapon us not an increment
Psst... this thread is almost 2 years old...
Look at the skull... obviously he's a necroposter.
Hello, I have been experimenting with NPC builds, and I want to make something that works in a low-magic setting against players who have
normal access to magic items and spells.
The idea is to make an NPC and tweak the rules so that he is as challenging to face in combat as one who had access to normal NPC WBL. This is on order to not have to worry about increasing player WBL by having too many NPCs vs monsters, and also to represent enemies from low-magic communities.
Let's start with a Barbarian, probably the easiest to make low-magic due to rage powers and self-buff:
HP: 116
AC 24 (25 raging, 22 reckless)
DR 2/-
Fort +12 Ref +8 Will +8.
Normal Attack: Falchion +22/+17 2d4+14, bow +15/+10 1d8+8.
Feats: Power Attack(PA), Weapon Focus[Falchion], Improved Critical[Falchion], Raging Vitality, Extra Rage power x2.
Rage Powers: Lesser Beast totem, Superstitious (+4 morale), Reckless Abandon, Beast Totem (+3 nat arm), Greater Beast totem, Eater of Magic (second save, tmp hp), Flesh Wound (1/rage fort (-acp) vs damage to halve dam and convert nonlethal.)
Rage: May full attack on charge.
Claws w/power attack and reckless +22/+22/+17 1d8+18
Falchion w/PA+rage +24/+19 2d4+26 (15-20x2)
CMB +22 (24 Falchion).
Saves: Fort +15 Ref +8 Will +10 (+4 vs magic)
HP: 146.
The idea was simply to grant bonuses that you would normally have from magic items or spell buffs. The question is, would this be too powerful to use against normally equipped Level 9-10 PCs? Too weak compared to the magic versions? Or fairly much the same.
Note that it is of course possible to make a lot more powerful builds, this is just as an example for an NPC. Also, the attributes are probably too high compared to what the PCs have, but please look at the final stats, attack/damage and defenses. After all, the PCs never need to know the attributes of the enemy.
The AC is low, but I suppose this is not going to be good for a barbarian anyway, even on level 10. So what do you think?
You might even take it a step further and ban all militairy weapons, thus only cutlery would be allowed. That is at best a 1d3 knife, or at worst an improvised weapon. A dagger is actually a weapon made for killing, just like a pistol is today. It is longer than most knives, double edged, and often taperered and strengthened to pierce armor such as chainmail.
Feel free to ban magic use for all except licensed members - it is your game world. Magic users are considred OP by PF community, so sometimes limiting it's use is fair play IMO. It is also a chance for Monks and supernatural abilities to shine.
But remember: There are always workarounds. Weapons can be smuggled, wizards disguised, or alternate weapons. Don't make the city guards or anti-magic guards omnipotent or omniprescient.
How do Bards get pounce? I play a bard, so this is interesting. I assume I have to sell my soul, bend some rules, multiclass or pick some obscure 3rd party version of my class the GM will ban.
How can my 6th level human regular bard get pounce?
At level 10 bards gain access to level 4 spells including the spell Dimension Door. With the ability to cast dimension door a bard can select the feat dimensional agility, which allows the selection of dimensional assault leading to dimensional dervish. With dimensional dervish a bard can cast dimension door as a swift action to combat and then make a full action attack. So just get to level 15 (or level 10 if the GM allows feat retraining from Ultimate combat) & spend 3 feats so that your bard can pounce by using a level 4 spell.
Hmm,interesting. Unlikely I will get it, but more likely that changing my bard to a dervish dancer bard.
Doesen't feat retraining require you to fulfill the requirement for the feat at the level you take it? IIRC you can't retrain your first level feat to take... Vital Strike.
I'm making something like this myself, a secret base owned by an evil secret network with close ties to an imperial government. They have access to lots of magic, golems, biomagical engineering,and even nanogolems (think nanotech).
The compound is protected by a semi-permanent wall of force, protection from teleportation (Forbiddance? Cant remember which spells), magic turrets that shoots like Ring of the Ram, human and hobgoblin guards, Cannon Golems(yes they are in PF), triggered alarm systems, modified humans (shadow or shade template) and of course weird monsters as the results of experiments. Throw in a couple of Guard dogs and traps with Invisibilty Purge.
Party is 10th level with lots of magic - 2 wizards, 1 magus and a Rogue.
I'm also looking for ways to secure the place against high level spellcasters.
Dms usually have 2 ways to interpret this kind of rerolls :
1- They don't tell you the DC to beat, so if you decide to reroll without knowing if you fail or succeed.
2- They tell you the DC to beat, when you roll your die, you know if you fail or not, but you must choose if you want to reroll before the DM tells you what the effect will be.
Most DMs I know tend to favor the 2nd case.
Result and effect are two different things. If the DM tells you the DC in advance he's making it easier than the game assumes. Or you might know the DC from prevous experience of the same effect, in which case you don't need to guess.
If the spider knows the Guard trick, and interprets the inisible enemy as such, it can attack it with no input from the druid. If it lacks the trick it will probably not attack unless the druid or itself is attacked.
Op: Sorry, you are wrong. DR only applies once per attack, as stated before in the thread. If you find anything in the rules that says otherwise, let us know. This has been the case since the early days of D&D, so nothing new there.
Crits, sneak attack or damage bonuses sich as Power Attack all help to overcome (but not ignore) DR.
Also, there is no such thing as a negative bonus, there are only bonuses or penalties. For example, a flat-footed PC does still get his Dex penalty to AC if he has less than 10 dex.
If you want a thematic explanation, imagine Smaug the Dragon having DR and Bard the Archer getting a critical hit (weak spot).
Also keep in mind a trained warhorse can attack enemies 5' away.
A worse problem with lance is zealous ruleslawyers and charge rules, who is charging or not, if you can rideby while using lance, etc. Best way Imo is to use common sense in this case, unlike most other rules.
