But to make it a PAIZO product, they'd have to rewrite it from Greyhawk to Golarion. That would take some serious rewrites.Which is one of many reasons why we wouldn't do it, frankly. An Age of Worms without Kyuss, Dragotha, and all the rest would be hollow and unfufilling; Age of Worms (and Savage Tide) are as much celebrations of all the things and stories and characters I grew up loving in D&D as they are adventure paths.
Aye, but they have a big, sweeping scope to them that shines through and we'd all like to see emulated more.
If Paizo could do the rewrite with Greyhawk setting, that would be fantastic, too. Admittedly, I'd like to see more showings of influence of the Greyhawk gods then was displayed in the AP, and not just some of the characters of legend, but it all works.==Aelryinth
Curse of the Crimson Throne - updated and polished for PFRPG. Our group's favorite adventure path by far.
If it's going to be just a compilation and update to PF (like RotRL was) then CotCT all the way, from what i have heard i would love this AP.
If it's going to be something more and involves actul changes to the AP in order to make it then i say Second Darkness.
In a perfect world, it would be Age of Worms. As I know that's not possible, my vote would be for Curse of the Crimson Throne.
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How about:
Legacy Curse of the Second Crimson Fire Darkness Throne?
A massive, fully level 1-20 AP that remakes all three 3.5 APs into one single, seamless campaign*! :D
(*Any coronaries caused to Paizo staff reading this suggestion are not intentional.)
If they are going to make changes...
Kingmaker would also be great in that the big baddie of the last adventure is hinted at in the first adventure and then disappears for a loooong time. Perhaps some more insertions of interactions to make them more something the PC's are dealing with over the entire AP?
With Council of Thieves...do something to make it less offensive (especially part 2). I admit most of the APs collected into a hardcover I would buy...but Cot is one that I wouldn't due to the experience me and my group had with it when we ran it, at least how it currently is written in regards to part 2.
Second Darkness could have some interesting changes, as most have referred to in this thread already.
I would love to have an Age of Worms or Savage Tide Hardcover, but seriously doubt that will ever happen.
What was offending in Council of thieves?
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... No one appreciates live theater anymore:(
Huh. I admit I'm very curious about whatever was offensive in Council of Thieves as well, since this is the first I'm hearing of it!
Unless I did hear and I scrubbed it from my memory, of course!
I play with a group of women. If you need a reminder, just do a quick review of #2 in CoT AP. I also posted about what was offensive in the CoT forums a while back.
It was about the most offensive thing any of them had ever seen in an RPG (and that includes all sorts of various situations involving gamers that don't know how to act around these ladies). It about kicked me out of being a GM (for poor taste in regards to the Adventure part) and a riot (of the bad sorts) at the table.
It represents everything that is reprehensible to some of these ladies...and they voiced it very vocally to me.
People may say the play has some bad things in it on purpose, but from a women's point of view...it takes anti-feminism to a new level offensiveness.
If anything ever almost turned that group from PF...that was the adventure part that just about did it. It was VERY VERY VERY hard to try to convince them that Paizo actually catered and made an effort to be inclusive of all types of gamers and people after that portion of the AP, as to them it seemed to bring out the worst of the anti-female gaming portion of RPGs and gaming in general.
Not a good memory...I could understand someone scrubbing such stuff from the memory as well.
I think it could be rewritten a bit more tastefully so it would be as inoffensive to women as the adventure is to men. (which means, sure, it could have some offensive stuff, but things that won't make women feel as if Paizo doesn't have any regards for them or their feelings).
PS: I should also add, when bringing it up to MALE gamers, it seems to bring out the worst types of replies from a FEW of them....with things which reinforced the idea of a callous attitude towards women.
I suppose that's the stereotype of guy gamers and their way of interacting with women, but it's another thing to have it reinforced by male gamers in their attitudes towards women.
AP's afterwards have been more female friendly, but theres still an air of cautiousness in regards to interacting with male PF players on the internet for most of them. (I could say it is with PF players in general, but to tell the truth, they can be very specific why they don't discuss a lot of PF stuff on the internet when I ask them about it).
What's worse, my spouse/significant other refuses to even look on the PF boards, but is one of our more creative PF players. She hated the AP, especially that part. She might have been able to enjoy the rest of it, but part 2 flavored her enjoyment of it afterwards to the point that she was critical (in a bad way) of everything in it afterwards.
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Huh. I admit I'm very curious about whatever was offensive in Council of Thieves as well, since this is the first I'm hearing of it!
Unless I did hear and I scrubbed it from my memory, of course!
I play with a group of women. If you need a reminder, just do a quick review of #2 in CoT AP. I also posted about what was offensive in the CoT forums a while back.
It was about the most offensive thing any of them had ever seen in an RPG (and that includes all sorts of various situations involving gamers that don't know how to act around these ladies). It about kicked me out of being a GM (for poor taste in regards to the Adventure part) and a riot (of the bad sorts) at the table.
It represents everything that is reprehensible to some of these ladies...and they voiced it very vocally to me.
People may say the play has some bad things in it on purpose, but from a women's point of view...it takes anti-feminism to a new level offensiveness.
If anything ever almost turned that group from PF...that was the adventure part that just about did it. It was VERY VERY VERY hard to try to convince them that Paizo actually catered and made an effort to be inclusive of all types of gamers and people after that portion of the AP, as to them it seemed to bring out the worst of the anti-female gaming portion of RPGs and gaming in general.
Not a good memory...I could understand someone scrubbing such stuff from the memory as well.
I think it could be rewritten a bit more tastefully so it would be as inoffensive to women as the adventure is to men. (which means, sure, it could have some offensive stuff, but things that won't make women feel as if Paizo doesn't have any regards for them or their feelings).
PS: I should also add, when bringing it up to MALE gamers, it seems to bring out the worst types of replies from a FEW of them....with things which reinforced the idea of a callous attitude towards women.
I suppose that's the stereotype of guy gamers and their way of...
You know when you dodge the question like that you make it hard not to think that your group isn't just full of holier-than-thou, too-pure-for-fun, self righteous and pretentious snobs who look for excuses to be offended.
Actually say what was found to be offensive. Going out and saying there's a problem is how a solution is produced.
You're doing nobody any favours by being evasive, least of all your group.
As Lord High Marshall James Jacobs stated, Age of Worms and Savage Tide are owned by WotC and will probably never see re-publication, despite how awesome it would be. The Carrion Crown is one of my faves. I also love WotR, but would never be able to play it with my group because they are all CN sociopaths. Especially one of them who would wait until the absolute perfect time to disrupt the rest of the party's efforts at the end and purposefully bring about the Abyssal Apocalypse just for the joy of knowing he ruined it for everyone else. I have a special place in my heart for RoW, despite the fact that my group wasn't able to finish it.
Personally my votes would go to Curse of the Crimson Throne, Kingmaker, and Serpent's Skull. There's a ton of potential in Serpent's Skull in particular that just doesn't get developed; there's too much combat and not enough RP opportunities built in, and they just did the city of Saventh-Yi flat wrong; it's one battle after another the way they wrote it, when there was so much great opportunity there for ruin delving, puzzle solving, intrigue among the factions, and so on. I'd love to see them go back and do it right.
I haven't played or run Council of Thieves, so my views on it may be wrong, but I simply found it shorter and less exciting than most of the other adventure paths.
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Curse of the Crimson Throne, please.
/thread
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Meh. The play was sexist, yes, but that's because it was based on the virtues of Asmodeus, a deity that is very sexist himself (and he's evil, so it's not like Paizo is encouraging it). For what it's worth, my group has two female players, and the play was their favorite part of the adventure.
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I'm a female, I didn't find anything in council of thieves offensive.
Contributor
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Same as ladydragona. I game with an overwhelmingly female group, and nobody batted an eye at this. If anything, I was surprised it wasn't more actively misogynistic, given its religious association. Calseinica's part, while manipulative, was neither stripped of her agency nor made unfeminine to "become acceptable". My players quite enjoyed it (especially since it still had some action in it).
Any of the 3.5 APs, converted to Pathfinder
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Curse of the Crimson Throne. It remains, in my opinion, the best of the APs, and it'd be fantastic to have a Pathfinder version of it.
Second Darkness would be my second pick. I liked it, though I admit that some parts were rough around the edges, and I'd like to see what they'd do in a remake of it / how they'd smooth bits out. It could probably *use* a remake more than Curse, but my desire to see more people playing/enjoying the general excellence of Curse wins out over my desire to see a remake of Second Darkness.
Legacy of Fire comes in a moderately distant third for the simple desire of wanting everything Golarion-related eventually updated to a PF version.
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Meh. The play was sexist, yes, but that's because it was based on the virtues of Asmodeus, a deity that is very sexist himself (and he's evil, so it's not like Paizo is encouraging it). For what it's worth, my group has two female players, and the play was their favorite part of the adventure.
Yeah, the Chelexian culture is the truest villain in that AP, and it should be little surprise if some of the things in the play were reprehensible.
I wouldn't try to say that there's anything wrong with GreyWolfLord and his players, just that if they took offense the authors of the AP are not to blame. The content is mild and appropriate and to most people would pose no trouble (hack, Paizo APs are full of much darker stuff - slavery, horrid violence against children, attempted genocides...). The APs certainly have a dark streak to them, and most of those who buy them understand that and either tone it down or use it (in some cases magnify it).
It's a question of statistics. Have ten thousand people read a book and some of them are bound to find it offensive (just as some will find it badly written, or boring, or anything else). The overwhelming consensus appears to be that there's nothing problematic in CoT. In fact if I recall correctly, #2 of that AP is considered by many to be a highlight of the entire campaign.
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Curse of the Crimson Throne, duh.
Huh. I admit I'm very curious about whatever was offensive in Council of Thieves as well, since this is the first I'm hearing of it!
Unless I did hear and I scrubbed it from my memory, of course!
I play with a group of women. If you need a reminder, just do a quick review of #2 in CoT AP. I also posted about what was offensive in the CoT forums a while back.
It was about the most offensive thing any of them had ever seen in an RPG (and that includes all sorts of various situations involving gamers that don't know how to act around these ladies). It about kicked me out of being a GM (for poor taste in regards to the Adventure part) and a riot (of the bad sorts) at the table.
It represents everything that is reprehensible to some of these ladies...and they voiced it very vocally to me.
People may say the play has some bad things in it on purpose, but from a women's point of view...it takes anti-feminism to a new level offensiveness.
If anything ever almost turned that group from PF...that was the adventure part that just about did it. It was VERY VERY VERY hard to try to convince them that Paizo actually catered and made an effort to be inclusive of all types of gamers and people after that portion of the AP, as to them it seemed to bring out the worst of the anti-female gaming portion of RPGs and gaming in general.
Not a good memory...I could understand someone scrubbing such stuff from the memory as well.
I think it could be rewritten a bit more tastefully so it would be as inoffensive to women as the adventure is to men. (which means, sure, it could have some offensive stuff, but things that won't make women feel as if Paizo doesn't have any regards for them or their feelings).
PS: I should also add, when bringing it up to MALE gamers, it seems to bring out the worst types of replies from a FEW of them....with things which reinforced the idea of a callous attitude towards women.
I suppose that's the stereotype of guy gamers and their way of...
Ok but what was offensive?
If you don't want to type them all over again you can provide a link to your older posts where you did list what was offensive to you and your group.
Curse of the Crimson Throne, definitely.
What was offending in Council of thieves?
here's the thread: link
main point: the play in Sixfold Trial was sexist.
I haven't read it, but I didn't really have any interest in the CoT AP as it seemed to require being sympathetic to the diabolical regime. Maybe I'm mistaken. The upcoming Hell's Rebels sounds like it might be the remedy for that.
As to the question of hardcover coveting, I'd love to have a Curse of the Crimson Throne Compilation, but would be equally happy with Second Darkness if the staff were up for a revision!
I love Legacy of Fire's potential, but it feels like the staff was stretched way too thin at the time and suffers some really clunky bits.
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No, CoT does NOT require you to be sympathetic to the regime.
pretty much the opposite in fact, or You should drop out after the first session.
Maybe I am biaised, but I do not even recall the play being sexist. then again, I have a pretty real harsh view of our own world, so I do not look at my fantasy with rosy lenses. nor do I want to.
Even though that may be the case that the module might maybe be less than optimal : IMO, being a hero is ALL about being anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti- what have you, but definitely not about dodging issues.
Dodging real life issues in your fantasy is even worse than IRL cowardice.
Just so we're clear tho, stating an observation about a game doesnt make someone a coward:-)
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Dodging real life issues in your fantasy is even worse than IRL cowardice.
You have some very odd priorities.
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Just so we're clear tho, stating an observation about a game doesnt make someone a coward:-)
The issue was that he wasn't willing to go out and say what he and his group found offensive. It's like going to a restaurant, eating the meal, and then going up to other people and saying the restaurant was bad while refusing to give any kind of reasoning like "It was too salty for my tastes," or "The waiters had a rather demeaning tone when taking my wife's order."
If you're going to be offended or miserable about something, unless you seriously want any meaningful change or progress to be made, speak up and be candid. People will respect you more for having spoken your mind rather than just scowling at people from the corner of the room without giving a reason.
Now that others however have pointed out the likely culprit, it's understandable, if something that can be taken with the Caveat that it's an ego-stroking play to a Lawful Evil deity. If it fills players with such ire, that's motivating them, and makes the payoff of causing the regime to suffer as the AP continues to feel more rewarding.
Another way of looking at it is setting up a "Villain you love to hate." Except the villain is the broader and more nebulous society at large. "Protagonist against Society" is one of the archetypical conflicts in stories after all.
Coming from someone who is relatively new to Pathfinder and has not played any adventure path in its entirety, I would say Curse of the Crimson Throne for two main reasons. First, because I've heard it's just a really cool AP. Second, simply because it's next chronologically.
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Just so we're clear tho, stating an observation about a game doesnt make someone a coward:-)The issue was that he wasn't willing to go out and say what he and his group found offensive. It's like going to a restaurant, eating the meal, and then going up to other people and saying the restaurant was bad while refusing to give any kind of reasoning like "It was too salty for my tastes," or "The waiters had a rather demeaning tone when taking my wife's order."
If you're going to be offended or miserable about something, unless you seriously want any meaningful change or progress to be made, speak up and be candid. People will respect you more for having spoken your mind rather than just scowling at people from the corner of the room without giving a reason.
Now that others however have pointed out the likely culprit, it's understandable, if something that can be taken with the Caveat that it's an ego-stroking play to a Lawful Evil deity. If it fills players with such ire, that's motivating them, and makes the payoff of causing the regime to suffer as the AP continues to feel more rewarding.
Another way of looking at it is setting up a "Villain you love to hate." Except the villain is the broader and more nebulous society at large. "Protagonist against Society" is one of the archetypical conflicts in stories after all.
I have done nothing to you. I have mentioned that it was offensive and non-female friendly for my group.
IF just mentioning it brings this much abuse from people, it should be a prime example of a good reason why I should NOT go into detail. In variably it would bring out the worst in Paizonians all too eager to jump and persecute their "SJW" or feminist in their midst.
It's not "Cowardice" so much as it is knowing how this crowd reacts and trying to answer the question without getting the persecution or the anger via the forums and PMs. I imagine a few may not even be able to hold back from personal insinuations and other items...therefore...to help us ALL keep the forum rules and everything civil...it's best NOT to discuss it in the details that you are asking all over again.
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I just want to see the 3.5 APs updated.
Also relevant: voodoo chili was kind enough to post a link to the relevant thread discussing his views of CoT, why not resurrect it if you want to further the discussion:-)
Update the rest of the 3.5 APs, then skip ahead to Wrath of the Righteous, which is widely reported to be severely broken, partly but not only because Mythic is severely broken (even looks broken to me just looking at the Mythic rules as presented to me on d20pfsrd.com). Redo it as a non-Mythic AP, and pretend that Mythic was just a myth. I would have said alternatively fix the Mythic rules so that they aren't broken and then fix the AP, but from what the rules look like to me and from what many people have reported on here, that doesn't sound feasible -- better to try out Epic (level >20) rules instead (D&D 3.5 Epic rules had their own hefty array of problems, but at least looked more fixable).
Perhaps extending such a tightly integrated system beyond its original parameters is just a bad idea?
^That all depends very much on just how you do it. Of course, some things might need tweaking within the system. Although I wouldn't call D&D or Pathfinder so much integrated as self-entangled . . . That said, D&D/Pathfinder is far from the only system that has scaling problems. For instance, One Roll Engine also has scaling problems; I think that these could be fixed, but doing so was apparently enough work that Reign made the most awesome monsters use the different Company Rules instead of normal One Roll Engine/Reign rules. At some point you just have to bite the bullet and straighten things out so that they work properly when scaled up. WotC's D&D 3.5 Epic Rules didn't cut it for this, but at least they were an honest (although highly flawed) attempt.
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What was offending in Council of thieves?here's the thread: link
main point: the play in Sixfold Trial was sexist.
I haven't read it, but I didn't really have any interest in the CoT AP as it seemed to require being sympathetic to the diabolical regime. Maybe I'm mistaken. The upcoming Hell's Rebels sounds like it might be the remedy for that.
As to the question of hardcover coveting, I'd love to have a Curse of the Crimson Throne Compilation, but would be equally happy with Second Darkness if the staff were up for a revision!
I love Legacy of Fire's potential, but it feels like the staff was stretched way too thin at the time and suffers some really clunky bits.
Just as a clarification for anyone reading the thread who has not read/played Council of Thieves: the AP does not require to be sympathetic with a diabolic regieme. Mostly, it just wasn't about opposing the diabolic regieme of Cheliax. It was, in fact, not about Cheliax at all. Rather, it was about a declining city named Westcrown that happened to be in Cheliax. the PCs were not part of some rebel movement against the Chelexian government, they were trying to save their city (their home) from being destroyed by the weight of it's own past.
I suspect the reason that some got the impression that the AP has the PCs actively supporting devil worshipers is simply because people expected the AP to be about opposing them, and it wasn't.
Since we're talking pure hypotheticals, the one I'd most like to see is Savage Tide, since the end of the Paizo era of Dungeon Magazine has made collecting a full run of those issues virtually impossible. (My kingdom for the penultimate installment!)
The AP I think would likely gain the most benefit would be Second Darkness, though I think to a much lesser degree Legacy of Fire would benefit from a second pass as well.
My guess is that a PF hardback of Curse of the Crimson Throne would probably be the best-received, however.
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Just so we're clear tho, stating an observation about a game doesnt make someone a coward:-)The issue was that he wasn't willing to go out and say what he and his group found offensive. It's like going to a restaurant, eating the meal, and then going up to other people and saying the restaurant was bad while refusing to give any kind of reasoning like "It was too salty for my tastes," or "The waiters had a rather demeaning tone when taking my wife's order."
If you're going to be offended or miserable about something, unless you seriously want any meaningful change or progress to be made, speak up and be candid. People will respect you more for having spoken your mind rather than just scowling at people from the corner of the room without giving a reason.
Now that others however have pointed out the likely culprit, it's understandable, if something that can be taken with the Caveat that it's an ego-stroking play to a Lawful Evil deity. If it fills players with such ire, that's motivating them, and makes the payoff of causing the regime to suffer as the AP continues to feel more rewarding.
Another way of looking at it is setting up a "Villain you love to hate." Except the villain is the broader and more nebulous society at large. "Protagonist against Society" is one of the archetypical conflicts in stories after all.
I have done nothing to you. I have mentioned that it was offensive and non-female friendly for my group.
IF just mentioning it brings this much abuse from people, it should be a prime example of a good reason why I should NOT go into detail. In variably it would bring out the worst in Paizonians all too eager to jump and persecute their "SJW" or feminist in their midst.
It's not "Cowardice" so much as it is knowing how this crowd reacts and trying to answer the question without getting the persecution or the anger via the forums and PMs. I imagine a few may not even be able to hold back from personal...
Your compunction with speaking your mind has been worked around, so some progress and conclusion to the matter can be performed.
I can take it as a given that you'd likely want an alteration to that section of Council of Thieves wherein sexist views are espoused in the name of an identified evil god. I see merits to the view. Perhaps prior opportunities for players to learn of the perhaps more archaic evil practices of Asmodeus before that point would ease the sting by making it painstakingly clear that the play represents the view of an evil god in the game world.
Several knowledge checks, or even a particular NPC interaction, could provide these. Alternatively ways of working around the play rather than having it be the only path can be done.
It is all idle fantasy of a hardcover anniversary edition.
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So all said it sounds like people would mostly want Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness and Council of Thieves. Legacy of Fire coming as a distant suggestion to get all 3.5 material updated. A strong mentioning of Wrath of the Righteous and a few people expressing interest in Reign of Winter.
Its all good, happens to us all:-)
From what I've been able to grasp in the case of Paizo's warehouse, the most likely AP to get a hardcover deal is Curse of the Crimson Throne, since one of it's volumes is sold out and quite a few others are below 1,000 copies left.
However Second Darkness also needs an update considering some of its glitches.
Both of them would be great hardcover APs.
