If Another AP Got a Hardcover Makeover, Which One Would You Want?


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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John Mangrum wrote:
Since we're talking pure hypotheticals, the one I'd most like to see is Savage Tide, since the end of the Paizo era of Dungeon Magazine has made collecting a full run of those issues virtually impossible. (My kingdom for the penultimate installment!)

Need Savage Tide? I've got the whole set up for sale on Ebay right now. (Age of Worms too.) Searching "complete savage tide" should bring it up. And I don't even require a kingdom in payment! :-)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In Italy we are lucky.
The Italian publisher Giochi Uniti has decided to do some adventure path in hardcover. Currently we have, Kingmaker, Jade Regent and Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition as a single hardcover book.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My vote in this fictional election goes to 'Curse of the Crimson Throne' as well.


User69 wrote:

In Italy we are lucky.

The Italian publisher Giochi Uniti has decided to do some adventure path in hardcover. Currently we have, Kingmaker, Jade Regent and Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition as a single hardcover book.

That's interesting! Do all the Adventure Path modules get released in translation, some of them as single modules and others as collected hardbacks, or are the only ones translated the ones that get published as single volumes?


By the way, if Legacy of Fire does get redone, while we're at it, apply a much deserved NerfSledgeHammer to the What-The-#311-Were-They-Thinking This-Is-Better-Than-Most-Feats Absolutely-Bonkers-Stupid-Brokenly-Overpowered Finding Haleen campaign trait.


Cleanthes wrote:
John Mangrum wrote:
Since we're talking pure hypotheticals, the one I'd most like to see is Savage Tide, since the end of the Paizo era of Dungeon Magazine has made collecting a full run of those issues virtually impossible. (My kingdom for the penultimate installment!)
Need Savage Tide? I've got the whole set up for sale on Ebay right now. (Age of Worms too.) Searching "complete savage tide" should bring it up. And I don't even require a kingdom in payment! :-)

I recently got almost all of Savage Tide during the Great Golem sale. On the downside, I missing the end...that magazine wasn't available at all.

:(

However, I have managed to pick up the rest of it, along with the AoW AP from Dungeon. (aka, picked up those magazines via the GGS or elsewhere).


Cleanthes wrote:
User69 wrote:

In Italy we are lucky.

The Italian publisher Giochi Uniti has decided to do some adventure path in hardcover. Currently we have, Kingmaker, Jade Regent and Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition as a single hardcover book.
That's interesting! Do all the Adventure Path modules get released in translation, some of them as single modules and others as collected hardbacks, or are the only ones translated the ones that get published as single volumes?

Hmm, if only I read Italian, that would be great!


Fix SD.


I've heard so much about Curse of the Crimson Throne that it has to get my vote!


GreyWolfLord (and group): Dont take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive. ;)

As for the topic at hand, without a doubt, Curse of the Crimson Throne.

I currently own 4 APs, Runelords hardcover, Kingmaker, Carrion Crown, and Skull and Shackles. Put out a Curse compilation and that number becomes 5.


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GreyWolfLord wrote:

I have done nothing to you. I have mentioned that it was offensive and non-female friendly for my group.

IF just mentioning it brings this much abuse from people, it should be a prime example of a good reason why I should NOT go into detail. In variably it would bring out the worst in Paizonians all too eager to jump and persecute their "SJW" or feminist in their midst.

It's not "Cowardice" so much as it is knowing how this crowd reacts and trying to answer the question without getting the persecution or the anger via the forums and PMs. I imagine a few may not even be able to hold back from personal...

It really just seems like people are disagreeing with you and are upset by you being evasive. I don't think anyone wishes you ill.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cleanthes wrote:
User69 wrote:

In Italy we are lucky.

The Italian publisher Giochi Uniti has decided to do some adventure path in hardcover. Currently we have, Kingmaker, Jade Regent and Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition as a single hardcover book.
That's interesting! Do all the Adventure Path modules get released in translation, some of them as single modules and others as collected hardbacks, or are the only ones translated the ones that get published as single volumes?

Some have been translated as individual volumes. These are the available AP: Second Darkness, Council of Thieves, Carrion Crown and Shattered Star.

Regarding the main topic of discussion, I personally would love a remake of Curse of the Crimson Throne.

Silver Crusade

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Read Crimson Throne. Ran Crimson Throne. Loved Crimson Throne.

Got very strong feelings tied into Crimson Throne.

Gonna have to vote for Curse of the Crimson Throne. :)

(I'm one of those people that loved History of Ashes too)

Silver Crusade

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Stereofm wrote:

Dodging real life issues in your fantasy is even worse than IRL cowardice.

While I think fantasy can be a great vehicle for dealing with real life issues and that an evil empire producing sexist plays in CoT isn't problematically offensive, I do have to take issue with this statement as it has been used many times before to justify throwing things in to be offensive.

That is, to use one specific example: I deal with homophobia all the time in real life. Some of my fantasy intake and output deals with homophobia, be it in novels or gaming. But sometimes, I don't want to have to deal with homophobia in my escapist fantasy.

To say that indulging in the latter is worse than real life cowardice may not be your intention, but that argument does get used, both here in the past by those that have insisted that LGBT characters must deal with persecution or else it's not "genuine" and elsewhere, like when some people absolutely lost their minds over Blue Rose.

It is okay to want to escape from the crap we have to deal with in real life sometimes, be it sexism, racism, homophobia, disabilities, and so on. There is no cowardice in finding a moment's release from that weight rather than being forced to wallow in it 24/7.


Kingmaker updated with some streamlined ultimate kingdom rules.

Sovereign Court

Mikaze wrote:
Stereofm wrote:

Dodging real life issues in your fantasy is even worse than IRL cowardice.

While I think fantasy can be a great vehicle for dealing with real life issues and that an evil empire producing sexist plays in CoT isn't problematically offensive, I do have to take issue with this statement as it has been used many times before to justify throwing things in to be offensive.

That is, to use one specific example: I deal with homophobia all the time in real life. Some of my fantasy intake and output deals with homophobia, be it in novels or gaming. But sometimes, I don't want to have to deal with homophobia in my escapist fantasy.

To say that indulging in the latter is worse than real life cowardice may not be your intention, but that argument does get used, both here in the past by those that have insisted that LGBT characters must deal with persecution or else it's not "genuine" and elsewhere, like when some people absolutely lost their minds over Blue Rose.

It is okay to want to escape from the crap we have to deal with in real life sometimes, be it sexism, racism, homophobia, disabilities, and so on. There is no cowardice in finding a moment's release from that weight rather than being forced to wallow in it 24/7.

You have my sympathies, and no ill intent.

I am with you, except for the part where this leads to writing adventures where you have to remind yourself why the heroes want to fight the bad guy, as you have trouble finding out just in what he is evil and deserves death at swordpoint. Or spellpoint.

I prefer strong villains, and villains that you grow to hate - with good cause. If everybody is friendly and enlightened, why fight them ? And no random monsters that just want to eat you do not fit the bill.

Feel free to disagree with me, and once again, YMMV

Sovereign Court

Said in another manneer : escapist fantasy is okay with me too, but not at the expense of the believability of the story.

The other extreme is just as bad for me as well : "misery porn" is not really my cup of tea either : the heroes must shine. But I find they shine better when they crush the real evil guys, not the orc who stole the pie.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Stereofm wrote:

Said in another manneer : escapist fantasy is okay with me too, but not at the expense of the believability of the story.

The other extreme is just as bad for me as well : "misery porn" is not really my cup of tea either : the heroes must shine. But I find they shine better when they crush the real evil guys, not the orc who stole the pie.

Some of that gets into knowing your audience. I think you can run games involving moral quandaries involving things like homophobia, racism, and sexism, but you should have an idea of how the Players might react. You can't blame someone who might deal with sexism on a daily basis not to be thrilled about having her character deal with it within a game. And I don't think those three isms need to be the go to trope to make a villain vile.


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Yeah whatever happened to just trying to take over the world, we're villians not radical republicans ;-)


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Age of Worms... the Diamond Lake setting at the beginning is just a great extremely well-developed background that really lent credibility to the whole starting scenario.

Also as far as the Paizo products go, my personal favorites have always been Legacy of Fire and Curse of the Crimson Throne. And I regret that they have not been converted to Pathfinder material. In my opinion, they are by FAR the best two Adventure Paths to date, but they fall short because they are still written in D&D 3.5 format.


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Mark me down for Second Darkness. Didn't JJ himself say that was the one he'd most like to revisit?


crimson throne


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would love to see one for second darkness too. Though one of the other factors for the last compilation was that copies of rise of the runelords had run out so technically speaking, curse of the Crimson throne is more likely because 1 of its books is out of print and all but one of the others is less than 1000 copies left each.

I check with previous "going out of sale" pages to confirm the estimate.

Edit: Scratch that make it three out of print.


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I'd vote Second Darkness ... for a few reasons.

1) The background narrative is integral to the history of Golarion on a more sweeping scale than Curse of the Crimson Throne

2) Its potential was not realized, and that's something a revision could correct.

3) As noted, the support products for it could use a re-vamp. While Into the Darklands and The Great Beyond have not been altered much by the passage of time, additional looks would not hurt. I think all of the relevant stat-blocks from those have been updated by now, so new creatures would be welcome. Elves of Golarion, on the other hand, was done for 3.5 and in the transition period in which Paizo was trying not to put new mechanics in sourcebooks. Some details of the Elves need to be corrected (sleeping vs meditating, for one), and the various Ethnicities need to be defined. We have the Snowcasters, but we only have the Half-Elf versions of the Ekujae and the Spire Elves.

Dark Archive

Elves of Golarion will probably be revised in Inner Sea Races.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Err, what's Inner Sea Races?

Dark Archive

captain yesterday wrote:
Err, what's Inner Sea Races?

A campaign setting hardcover announced for september. Wayfinder 12 has a preview of the cover.

Grand Lodge

This is about Adventure Paths though, not the Campaign Setting line, though appendices addressing that kind of detail about elves within a revamped Second Darkness might be a plausible route in this hypothetical scenario.


If we're talking about "fixing" things, I'd strongly say both Second Darkness (based on all I've heard) and Serpent's Skull (based off of actual gaming experiences).

Each of these have amazing potential, but a deeply flawed execution.

... and Serpent's Skull would make an excellent early-mythic game.

If we're talking about "I'd love to see this revised and expanded", I'd have to go with Kingmaker, followed by Council of Thieves. Wrath of the Righteous, too, for all the things people have commented on its mythic integration, though it's not a personal assessment.

Incidentally, I love Carrion Crown, as well (not finished yet, but love it), but it doesn't actually make the list because it's not really... necessary, I suppose. It just works as is, and I enjoy the kind of episodic format it has.


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^If you're going to make Serpent's Skull Anniversary Edition (or anything else) Mythic, you would need to fix Mythic first.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^If you're going to make Serpent's Skull Anniversary Edition (or anything else) Mythic, you would need to fix Mythic first.

The mythic stuff, as it is now, can work if you don't plan to go all the way (10 tiers for the PCs) and get rid of the xp in the AP and have the players level up only in specific parts of the story, that (in my opinion) would allow the writers to make better encounters and not have the whole thing being a cake walk.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
leo1925 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^If you're going to make Serpent's Skull Anniversary Edition (or anything else) Mythic, you would need to fix Mythic first.

The mythic stuff, as it is now, can work if you don't plan to go all the way (10 tiers for the PCs) and get rid of the xp in the AP and have the players level up only in specific parts of the story, that (in my opinion) would allow the writers to make better encounters and not have the whole thing being a cake walk.

but then whats the point of having mythic in it?

no, its best to leave the mechanic of Serpent's Skull alone and fix the city:)


Curse of Crimson Throne would be amazing.


captain yesterday wrote:
TwiceBorn wrote:
Kingmaker.

Why? is it only because its mostly out of print? why can't you just use the ultimate campaign stuff, switch out some monsters for other ones from newer bestiaries, and tweak an NPC or ten.

honestly people, Kingmaker is A) PFRPG already and B) already superb so i'm not sure why it would warrant a hard cover.

Yes, because it is mostly out of print and it's one of the few older APs I'm interested in acquiring… and I'd like to have it in hard copy at a reasonable price -- it's already fetching unreasonably high prices on eBay!


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I think a fair argument could be made for almost any of the Adventure Paths benefiting from being revised and then reprinted as a hardcover, but also that it should be a rare occasion so as not to dilute the product line. Rise of the Runelords is a wonderful classic which I probably never would have played if not for the Anniversary Edition because I never purchased a single Paizo product until the Pathfinder system went live with the printing of the Core Rulebook. In fact, the very first Adventure Path series I purchased was Kingmaker (not Council of Thieves), followed by Jade Regent.

Now, the fact that Kingmaker was my very first AP certainly does bias me towards voting for it, and I honestly do feel that Kingmaker could benefit greatly from getting the same treatment Rise of the Runelords did. However... a lot of what makes Kingmaker great isn't the books, but all the content people in our community have created to fill in the gaping holes in those books. As has been pointed out in this thread, there are serious issues with the campaign villain being largely absent until Book 6, and a lot of the mechanical problems were fixed by Ultimate Campaign. What is needed to run Kingmaker isn't a revamped hardback, it's access to these forums and a lot of creativity.

Instead, the AP I would vote for is Second Darkness. Like Rise of the Runelords, it was published under the 3.5 rules rather than Pathfinder, is set in Varisia, and explores an interesting part of Golarion's past. It's also something that hasn't been revisited since, as we've yet to have another Adventure Path dealing with the drow, unlike how a reprinting of Council of Thieves would inevitably result in it being compared to the upcoming Hell's Rebels AP.

Anywho, that's my opinion on the matter, for whatever it might be worth.


Personally, I think that either Curse of the Crimson Throne or Legacy of Fire would be nice choices.

Honestly do, hardcover or not, any official rework of these two or Second Darkness, updated to today's Pathfinder standard, would be awesome.

Grand Lodge

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Second Darkness.


Curse of the Crimson Throne. It's a fun campaign but in desperate need of a rework.

I'm currently running Serpent's Skull and although it has it's flaws the AP doesn't need too much tweaking. I felt the beginning of the campaign needed the most work as opposed to the rest of it.

Sovereign Court

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Urath DM wrote:

I'd vote Second Darkness ... for a few reasons.

1) The background narrative is integral to the history of Golarion on a more sweeping scale than Curse of the Crimson Throne
2) Its potential was not realized, and that's something a revision could correct.
3) As noted, the support products for it could use a re-vamp....

This. I've lifted stuff from this AP for home brew 3.5 adventures set in Greyhawk, but it has a ton of Golarion flavor. If it ever got a Pathfinder revamp I would buy it the first day. If it ever got sanctioned for PFSOP I would GM it for my local group.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Curse of the Crimson Throne gets my vote!


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While I agree that Kingmaker is already superb, so was Runelords. And there are definitely points where KM could be tightened up, and the mechanical lessons of the last several years could be put to use.

Dark Archive

Curse of Crimson Throne or Legacy of Fire being updated to current rules would be dream come true for me. First is just awesome, and second one is.. Well, how many genie based campaigns you know of? Huh? HUH? :P

Seriously though, nothing wrong with Second Darkness I suppose, but drow just don't interest me that much. That being said, I do want it to be updated too since I'm not good at converting and I'd like some darklands campaign :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would probably vote for Crimson Throne because it's 3.5 and a Pathfinder update would be great.

However, a hardcover, evergreen update of Kingmaker would be fantastic too. Kingmaker is the campaign I'm most fond of and I've been running it since around the time book 2 came out for it. I'm STILL running it (or will be once my turn to GM comes around again).

Silver Crusade

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I'd also be amenable to Second Darkness, but only if there were some massive rewrites to take care of some of the major problems of that AP.

Shadow Lodge

While all of the Pre-Pathfinder RPG Adventure Paths could be amazing with an 'Anniversary' upgrade, I think one of the most deserving is Serpent's Skull. The first three books are excellent, and get that real pulp adventure vibe a la Indiana Jones. But the last three were plagued with problems due to (as I understand it) writers missing deadlines and such. So the back half of the adventure kind of falls apart.

In my mind, it has been Paizo's only real 'failure', and I'd love to see them go back and fix it, as well as giving it a new coat of paint.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Rise was great for various reasons. among other things, it seems like they want to maintain awareness of Thassilon and the Runelords.

That said, I feel that if there is another, it really should go to one that needs the help. I still would rather see Second Darkness over Serpent's Skull (the 3.5 shift was p. big), but Curse of the Crimson Throne and Kingmaker pretty much stand the test of time with only minor tweaks (by my standards). So while I'd love to see them all (and this is from someone who has copies of every AP back to Burnt Offerings), i would like to see the ones that need the most help get it.

That said, given how arduous the last one was, they'll probably choose one that requires less overall effort. So what I want and what I expect are at odds. *sigh*


Urath DM wrote:

I'd vote Second Darkness ... for a few reasons.

1) The background narrative is integral to the history of Golarion on a more sweeping scale than Curse of the Crimson Throne

2) Its potential was not realized, and that's something a revision could correct.

3) As noted, the support products for it could use a re-vamp. While Into the Darklands and The Great Beyond have not been altered much by the passage of time, additional looks would not hurt. I think all of the relevant stat-blocks from those have been updated by now, so new creatures would be welcome. Elves of Golarion, on the other hand, was done for 3.5 and in the transition period in which Paizo was trying not to put new mechanics in sourcebooks. Some details of the Elves need to be corrected (sleeping vs meditating, for one), and the various Ethnicities need to be defined. We have the Snowcasters, but we only have the Half-Elf versions of the Ekujae and the Spire Elves.

What he said....plus One!


Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, Kingmaker in that order would be my votes

-War Jack


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It occurs to me that a theoretical Kingmaker hardcover could benefit from the fact that this AP was used to springboard a lot of creatures that then appeared in later Bestiaries. There's a fair amount of page space devoted to stat blocks that would be freed up in a compilation.

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