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Crimson Throne. By all that is Paizo, Crimson Throne.
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My issue with Crimson Throne is... what needs to be done for it?
Given the choice between fixing a weaker Path and putting a fresh coat of paint on a great one, I'd rather fix the weaker one. Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire could both use some serious fixes.
(Council of Thieves could use a lot of work, too, but I doubt they'll touch any of the PFRPG ones. Sorry, Kingmaker fans.)
Yea, redoing the 3.5 ones seems more likely.
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Kingmaker with the updated kingdom rules is probably the weakest case.
It was popular, but the rules are *mostly* the same. If Kingmaker needs anything, it would be more direct hints and foreshadowing of what comes at the end.
While I would love to Second Darkness get updated, I agree with Kalindlara that it is because it *needs* more help than Curse of the Crimson Throne.
That said, Ultimate Intrigue, and especially whatever form the Vigilante takes, could become a springboard for a CotCT compilation (as the NPC Blackjack is exactly what the Vigilante is trying to model - a hero with a secret identity).
CotCT is based on 3.5. Its popularity makes it a stronger candidate to sell than Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire, which means it is likely the "best candidate" for a compilation. That it doesn't need as much work as Second Darkness would actually works to its advantage .. trying to do the Rise of the Runelords AE messed with Paizo's schedule significantly. The kind of re-work that Second Darkness would require would make it a larger undertaking than RotRL AE was, or than a CotCT AE wouid be.. and that works against it being a candidate. :(
As I said, I would most like to see Second Darkness, but I suspect that CotCT is more likely to be a viable choice.
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It'd pretty much have to be one that was mostly sold out & unavailable, so it would not compete with the softcover APs, and the only way to get it is the collected version.
Having it be a 3.5 one would help, to justify the time and effort going into the reprint.
Half of Curse of the Crimson Throne is sold out, but it's the only one. Everything else is still available.
So while it'd be nice to have a Pathfinder version of, say, Second Darkness, you can already buy the full AP right now. If they can't sell the last few dozen copies of that AP, why would they expect people to buy a reprint?
Other than that, Carrion Crown and Kingmaker are the APs that are most sold out volumes. Carrion Crown seems like a stretch, but a revision with Occult Adventures rules would be interesting.
Similarly, a revised Kingmaker using the Ultimate Campaign rules might be interesting. And revising that into a big unified sandbox might be really interesting. And adding more foreshadowing and cohesive elements. That be the easiest to "sell".
Really, the RotRL collector's editon came out in 2012, celebrating 5 years of APs/Golarion/ and 10 of Paizo. Doing another to celebrate a special event seems more reasonable than "just because".
2017, being the 15th anniversary, would be the next reasonable date. But who celebrates 15s? 2019, the 10th anniversary of the PFRPG might be a better date. And a lot can change between now and then.
My issue with Crimson Throne is... what needs to be done for it?
Given the choice between fixing a weaker Path and putting a fresh coat of paint on a great one, I'd rather fix the weaker one. Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire could both use some serious fixes.
Admittedly, my enthusiasm over voting for Crimson Throne is because I absolutely adore it and it's one of my favorite APs of all time, while Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire are both near the very bottom. I have little interest at all in Drow and Legacy of Fire just always seemed meh to me.
If they were rereleased and updated, I wouldn't buy them, because I'm not interested in them at all. Whereas a CotCT re-release would have my money on day one.
That said, Urath and David also make very good points in its favor. Pathfinder has added a lot of new things in the time since that really just fit for CotCT, and the fact that it doesn't need a lot of repair and revision, just some updating and a fresh coat of paint, mean it would be less disruptive to add in as a special project than something like SD or LOF which would require a great deal of work to remaster.
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True.The part about it being an error that the elves got portrayed in the wrong way (in part due to a lack of my time and inexperience as a developer, and in part due to the author drawing too much on classic D&D/Tolkein elf lore).
The part where my last name is missing its "s" is not true though.
Somehow, I am somewhat sad to read this.
I understand that you want a gaming atmosphere as friendly as possible, everybody is welcome for Golarion, and I deeply respect this.
The part of me that is sad though, is that I have the feeling that all of you are self-censoring yourselves because of this, in fear that someone might get offended. I don't mind adult and edgy themes, done right.
Please keep up the good work, and dare show evil for what it is. A good villain for an AP, is a villain you want DEAD, DEAD, DEAD !!!
All the best.
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Contributor
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True.The part about it being an error that the elves got portrayed in the wrong way (in part due to a lack of my time and inexperience as a developer, and in part due to the author drawing too much on classic D&D/Tolkein elf lore).
The part where my last name is missing its "s" is not true though.
Somehow, I am somewhat sad to read this.
I understand that you want a gaming atmosphere as friendly as possible, everybody is welcome for Golarion, and I deeply respect this.
The part of me that is sad though, is that I have the feeling that all of you are self-censoring yourselves because of this, in fear that someone might get offended. I don't mind adult and edgy themes, done right.
Please keep up the good work, and dare show evil for what it is. A good villain for an AP, is a villain you want DEAD, DEAD, DEAD !!!
All the best.
As far as I know, the problem wasn't self-censorship or adult themes. They left those in Rise of the Runelords, after all. And the drow are pretty vile.
In A Memory of Darkness, they come across as very superior/holier-than-thou, exclusionary, and generally treat the PCs poorly.
The villains are fine - great, even. The AP has some motivation issues, though, and an Anniversary Edition would be a big help.
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I personally would get one of Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire (is that title right? Doesn't seem right to me) and probably Council of Thieves (tho honestly with the Hell's Extravaganza of the next year I think my Cheliax itch will be sufficiently scratched (I should probably get that checked out).
I would not get Kingmaker or any after that as I don't think they need it, even Serpent's Skull is pretty awesome in my book and outside of issues with book 3 (which I liked it's sand boxey nature, could use some more maps but whatever:-D) I can't think of anything to change about it.
Creative Director
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True.The part about it being an error that the elves got portrayed in the wrong way (in part due to a lack of my time and inexperience as a developer, and in part due to the author drawing too much on classic D&D/Tolkein elf lore).
The part where my last name is missing its "s" is not true though.
Somehow, I am somewhat sad to read this.
I understand that you want a gaming atmosphere as friendly as possible, everybody is welcome for Golarion, and I deeply respect this.
The part of me that is sad though, is that I have the feeling that all of you are self-censoring yourselves because of this, in fear that someone might get offended. I don't mind adult and edgy themes, done right.
Please keep up the good work, and dare show evil for what it is. A good villain for an AP, is a villain you want DEAD, DEAD, DEAD !!!
All the best.
It's not self-censoring to go back and fix an error. I always INTENDED the elves of Golarion to be more friendly and approachable and kind. They're chaotic good after all. Furthermore, this would help to separate Pathfinder elves from the aloof Tolkeiny elves that have been in D&D settings to date.
It's not that I'm afraid of offending someone at all. It's that the way elves were portrayed in that AP was simply "wrong" for Golarion, in the same way that had we portrayed halflings as 1 foot tall cannibals or dwarves as tree-dwelling beardless cyclopes would have been wrong.
We'll still show evil for what it is. Fixing the error in how elves were presented in Second Darkness has no real effect on that; it's an entirely different topic, in fact.
Evil elves (not just drow) are a huge part of Second Darkness, and that wouldn't change.
The idea that "all elves are jerks" is the problem.
As for Crimson Throne, maybe adding something dealing with the Shoanti invasion that would have happened if the PCs made a mess of things. It was brought up, and then dropped for the last part. Perhaps adding to the city's danger level due to a bigger army presence?
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True.The part about it being an error that the elves got portrayed in the wrong way (in part due to a lack of my time and inexperience as a developer, and in part due to the author drawing too much on classic D&D/Tolkein elf lore).
The part where my last name is missing its "s" is not true though.
Somehow, I am somewhat sad to read this.
I understand that you want a gaming atmosphere as friendly as possible, everybody is welcome for Golarion, and I deeply respect this.
The part of me that is sad though, is that I have the feeling that all of you are self-censoring yourselves because of this, in fear that someone might get offended. I don't mind adult and edgy themes, done right.
Please keep up the good work, and dare show evil for what it is. A good villain for an AP, is a villain you want DEAD, DEAD, DEAD !!!
All the best.
Given how messed up some of Golarion can get (cannibalism, rape, torture and mass murder are all regular elements in APs, and they are not treated gently - there are evil forces out in the world and your PCs might be the only thing standing in their way), I really don't think Paizo are censoring themselves. The nasty stuff is there. But it is important to have some good to countrbalance that. There is no good reason that elves wouldn't be a good race.
It's not self-censoring to go back and fix an error. I always INTENDED the elves of Golarion to be more friendly and approachable and kind. They're chaotic good after all. Furthermore, this would help to separate Pathfinder elves from the aloof Tolkeiny elves that have been in D&D settings to date.It's not that I'm afraid of offending someone at all. It's that the way elves were portrayed in that AP was simply "wrong" for Golarion, in the same way that had we portrayed halflings as 1 foot tall cannibals or dwarves as tree-dwelling beardless cyclopes would have been wrong.
We'll still show evil for what it is. Fixing the error in how elves were presented in Second Darkness has no real effect on that; it's an entirely different topic, in fact.
Evil elves (not just drow) are a huge part of Second Darkness, and that wouldn't change.
The idea that "all elves are jerks" is the problem.
Some folks advocate running an all-elf party to get around this issue. I see that as dodging the problem, though. The issue is that the most intolerant forces are also corrupting their own mission.. changing the chaotic good elves into lawful neutral or lawful evil minions of mandated behaviors "for the good of the race".
That's a very powerful theme to play with, but the lack of positive interactions (Kwava disappears too soon, for example) and scenes showing this repressive action fail to make the case properly. Thus, all elves come off as jerks.
Personally, I'd re-arrange things so that after dealing with the original threat, the confrontation with the Winter Council would be the real "final boss"... and maybe convincing the Shin'rakorath to re-think their allegiance an ongoing challenge throughout.
That's also why I say it *needs* the attention. As Jester David mentioned, a straight re-print would not work because it would preserve the same issues as-is.
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The idea that "all elves are jerks" is the problem.
We recently finished our run through Second Darkness and are now entrenched in Legacy of Fire. I actually liked the "aloof elf" stereotype for some of the elves, those that opposed the PC's. I then played up the sympathetic Elven NPC's to provide balance. I took the opportunity of the events of the AP to fundamentally change how the Elven nation began to treat non-elves. After having a large number of "aloof elves" killed or discredited, those with more positive outlooks were able to have a stronger hand in guiding the Elven race. As a result, all elves appearing after that AP will be less Tolkienesque in their outlook and more willing to associate and work with others now that they have been shown that non-elves can measure up to the task when needed.
Except for Mordant Spire elves......'cause those guys are just creepy and crazy. LOL
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Post is lost in the SD section, but someone made a situation that had the aloof elf be standard SOP when dealing with outsiders in a way that had a..'ignore them and they'll go away' thing. Diplomats were put on ice in a nice building and ignored until they threw up their hands and left. Wanna just travel through? Delay,paperwork, delay more paperwork OH WE'LL JUST GO AROUND!
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Going by which books are most sold out here on Paizo, the APs most likely to get hardcover treatment would be:
Kingmaker (5 parts sold out!)
Carrion Crown (3 parts sold out)
Skull and Shackles (3 parts sold out)
It may be because of the d20 -> Pathfinder switchover, but Curse of the Crimson Throne is only missing 2 parts, Legacy of Fire 1, and Second Darkness is still available.
Of course, we don't know the differences in print runs, but it seems to me Kingmaker is the most "in demand" AP.
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I'd buy a hc kingmaker. I'd like them to change the BBEG at the end of part 6 somewhat, or have them integrated into the whole much better, and perhaps incorporate UC into the AP, as well as...actually, there's a LOT of stuff they could do to KM to update it and make it flow smoother.
Carrion Crown...maybe.
Skull and Shackles would need something spectacular for me to get a HC of it perhaps...but I don't exactly know what.
CotCT, the more I think about it, I MIGHT be tempted if they had a LOT of extras (like statting all six runelords out, or something like that for a continuing campaign)...
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Kingmaker please.
Remove Book 6 and totally replace it with an advanture/conflict in Brevoy. Surtova should be the BBEG, not this Narissa character. The Player's companion teases Brevoy and an awesome Game of Thrones epic that is a total red herring, which I would like to see added into the AP as a capstone, with some lead up in books 3-5.
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Curse of the Crimson Throne.
1. Its rules are not currently Pathfinder rules.
2. It's a perennial contender on "favorite adventure path" polls.
3. The changes it might benefit from are gentle nudges, rather than massive rewrites, allowing a focus on polishing up the mechanics and really making those nudges shine.
4. Scarwall.
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If Council of Thieves were redone.
1.Get the Drovanges more exposure. As it stands, Chammady is met once (maybe twice) and her brother who only appears once so I forgot his name.
2.Consider shuffling things around so the Shadowcurse arc is dealt with first and then the COT. First three modules were heavy on the 'End the curse!' plot and then detoured before swerving back. This also gives the PCs time to enjoy night-time adventures.
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Second Darkness and Crimson Throne. Drow must be fought, and Blackjack has a city to save!
But didn't Blackjack already do that and he's gotta fight Superman next?
Or was that fighting the Spaniard on top of The Cliffs of Despair?
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Kingmaker please.
Remove Book 6 and totally replace it with an advanture/conflict in Brevoy. Surtova should be the BBEG, not this Narissa character. The Player's companion teases Brevoy and an awesome Game of Thrones epic that is a total red herring, which I would like to see added into the AP as a capstone, with some lead up in books 3-5.
This change would completely kill any interest in the AP for me. Chapter Six was what sold Kingmaker to me.
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Same here.
^ Seconded ^
Yeah, I don't see book 6 going anywhere.
But if they did Kingmaker over, and added some more material, I can definitely see a bigger presence for Brevoy, Numeria, and the River Kingdoms in that supplemental material.
Specifically, how to expand the high level game into those regions.
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Kingmaker was a weird one for me... easily one of the strongest first adventures of any AP to date, but... well. If I want to spend the middle of a campaign in a sandbox, I can do that without paying for it...
A long, long, long way from bad, but not my cuppa.
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Absolutely Curse of the Crimson Throne, but Second Darkness would be very cool too.
Crimson Throne. By all that is Paizo, Crimson Throne.
Wish granted!
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It lives!!! Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!!
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Ok, so now we start discussing how long before Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire get this treatment. Both of those will happen before Kingmaker I think.
*queue Paizo rep saying this will never happen*
Yes, yes, we know... doesn't mean I still won't hope for it and have money ready. :)
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If they keep going at this rate, they just might get to Kingmaker during my lifetime . . .
I don't' have Council of Thieves, but wasn't it sort of a mix between D&D 3.5 rules and Pathfinder rules? I remember this being reported somewhere else on these boards.
It had an occasional holdover, like an incompatible potion or magic item, or a wrong skill check.
Nothing too bad. :-)
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If they keep going at this rate, they just might get to Kingmaker during my lifetime . . .
I don't' have Council of Thieves, but wasn't it sort of a mix between D&D 3.5 rules and Pathfinder rules? I remember this being reported somewhere else on these boards.
It was 5 years from original RotR to the rework (3 if you count from the PFRPG date). It's been 4 since that to this new version of CotCT. So 6 to 8 more years to get a reworked SD and LoF. To be honest, regardless of lifetime, I suspect we might see a new version of Pathfinder before we see a reworked Kingmaker.
But just think, if that happens, we can all clamor to have the entire PF1 AP line re-done for PF2! :) *Hopes he didn't just give the TRex a heart attack*
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*queue Paizo rep saying this will never happen*
A queue is a line in which one waits for service. The action-prompting thing you're trying to describe is a cue.
It was 5 years from original RotR to the rework (3 if you count from the PFRPG date).
It's not quite as simple as a matter of time. The factors that nfluence Paizo's decision to re-issue content seem to be:
1. How long it's been since the original release;
2. Whether the rules need updating; and by far the most important
3. Whether they've run out of stock.
Again, +1 for that (Second Darkness).
But in order to get that result, we have to make sure that Paizo runs out of most of their SD stock.
Maybe we could start recommending the first two books of SD as a "Riddleport and environs" mini-campaign? And if that works, then books 3-6 as a "help the elves/save the world" higher-level campaign?
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The only two adventure paths I don't have are Second Darkness, and Legacy of Fire. So I vote for either of those. With Legacy of Fire my preferred choice. :-)