If Another AP Got a Hardcover Makeover, Which One Would You Want?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It bears notice, I think, that black is just as unnatural a skin color as purple. Black people do not have black skin, they have brown skin.

Sovereign Court

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Zaister wrote:
It bears notice, I think, that black is just as unnatural a skin color as purple. Black people do not have black skin, they have brown skin.

And "white" people aren't "white," they're a light off-pink usually, but people still get described as "white" or "black."

Dark Archive

Do it the way TES did Drow.


Maybe we should move away from the race angle, as Kalindlara has suggested.

I purpose we work on a list of things we like about each one, up to, and including Kingmaker and Council of Thieves, a list of things we would change, and a list of things we wouldn't change. :-)

Also, please refrain from picking apart each other's lists, as we all know how that's going to end. :-)

Silver Crusade

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OMG a Hell's Rebels avatar! <3


Yes! New avatars, just sort by date, order is kinda skewed, but the first twelve or so pages are all new. :-)

(700 total new avatars I believe.)


He totally looks like Cary Elwes. :-)


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I'd like to see a Second Darkness revisit - but I think some extensive reworking is required - it would almost need to be a new adventure path, taking elements from the original, adding new bits and fitting them together in a more seamless way.

It's too bad Throne of Night has apparently gone off the rails - there are some excellent ideas and work therein. I'd almost wish Paizo would buy the rights to it, close down the Kickstarter, and incorporate all the good bits from it into a grand rewrite of Second Darkness (and maybe give the long suffering Kickstarter supporters a discount while they are at it). Disclosure - I'm not a contributor to that particular Kickstarter, but did buy the first installment of Throne of Night.

Between elements of Second Darkness and material from Throne of Night - I think you could do a great mash-up of the two and create a better Second Darkness...

But I guess I'm probably asking for a whole new AP at that point...


Third party Pathfinder to 3.0 or the older WOTC stuff are good influences to modify Second Darkness with. The Eldereth Veluythera from FR was a group of elven speciests (sp?) who support culling or killing off humanity as well as any who challenge/threaten the elven peoples, drow including. Using them as an addition to the White Council and adding more intrigue makes Second Darkness even more fun.

For more traditional adventures, I would recommend Rise of the Drow, et.al for that piece, or converting over the oldie but goodie 2002 WOTC 3.0 module for FR whose name escapes me in which you fight lots of drow who worship Kiaransalee. As for the racist side, that will always be there whenever drow are done with brown skin. Technically the color is supposed to be ebony black from old editions (FF in particular), with shades of purple or albinos that are pure bone white (ala the above module), and there are also the really angry gray drow barbarians from Green Ronin's super duper awesome Plot and Poison 3.0 piece called drey, and the aquatic drow.


Purple and blue drow make me think of WOW or the smelves (Smurf Elves) my friend came up with for a race in Rifts. They even lived in MDC mushroom houses and were friends with the local wildlife.


Well that was random. So your avatar changes if you type in Smurf?


Good to know.


Yes.. using that word changes your avatar for that post into a random image of .. one of them. :)


stormcrow27 wrote:

Third party Pathfinder to 3.0 or the older WOTC stuff are good influences to modify Second Darkness with. The Eldereth Veluythera from FR was a group of elven speciests (sp?) who support culling or killing off humanity as well as any who challenge/threaten the elven peoples, drow including. Using them as an addition to the White Council and adding more intrigue makes Second Darkness even more fun.

For more traditional adventures, I would recommend Rise of the Drow, et.al for that piece, or converting over the oldie but goodie 2002 WOTC 3.0 module for FR whose name escapes me in which you fight lots of drow who worship Kiaransalee. As for the racist side, that will always be there whenever drow are done with brown skin. Technically the color is supposed to be ebony black from old editions (FF in particular), with shades of purple or albinos that are pure bone white (ala the above module), and there are also the really angry gray drow barbarians from Green Ronin's super duper awesome Plot and Poison 3.0 piece called drey, and the aquatic drow.

Eh.. White Council was Lord of the Rings. Winter Council is what you mean. :)

Changes to the AP would need to preserve the key points...

Second Darkness key elements:

  • Setting Lore: the Drow exist and that secret is revealed in this AP
  • Setting Lore: "regular" elves can become Drow
  • a converted Drow is planning to smash a meteor or asteroid into the world to get rid of the unconverted elves
  • Setting Lore: the elves have a shadow government that is dedicated to enforcing "the one true way to be elves" on the population
  • the elves need help in both preventing the Drow plot AND in breaking the grip of the shadow government

At the same time, it needs to correct a number of issues...

Second Darkness issues:

  • Riddleport is a little too significant, and the PCs can become too tied to it as a result, given that it is largely irrelevant after Shadow in the Sky.
  • Elves come across as more unlikable than they should be
  • Drow become too easy to identify with and like more than "regular" elves
  • The Elves of the Mordant Spire have become quite different since Second Darkness was published.
  • Setting Lore: The Lantern Bearers/Shin'Rakorath's role is controversial for some - Generally Good-aligned advocates/ agents of Drow genocide.

Another AP could address the issues ... but would not help to salvage the important setting lore that is in the original AP and make up some of the key points.

James Jacobs has said he would like to "fix" Second Darkness, and has some ideas on how to approach it, but the business justification needs to be there for that to happen. A separate AP to correct the issues is probably more justifiable in a business sense. The setting lore could be scattered over multiple other APs if necessary.


stormcrow27 wrote:
Well that was random. So your avatar changes if you type in [The Unforgivable Word]?

Yes. Someone at Paizo has an... interesting sense of humor.

Given that Drow Elves have straight white hair, red eyes, and elven features, claims that their skin color smacks of racism is perhaps reaching a bit. The reasoning for their black skin was the whole "dark magic" aspect - Drow utilize magics that are not acceptable and are an adjective for evil or secret. And this is also a good depiction of them as a species - evil and secret.

But hey. You can easily make them dark green in color, seeing green is sometimes considered a color that isn't healthy either.


Once you smurf you can't stop.

The Exchange

I have three in mind:
1. Legacy of Fire - Katapesh is a great place to adventure. I would love to see Occult Classes and Ultimate Intrigue added to this one.
2. Second Darkness - I love this one and the Occult Adventures and Horror Adventures would be fun to add here, along with the Cthulhu deities.
3. Serpent's Skull - I love the Mwangi and with the new Sargava adventure, this would be a fun region to expand the AP and add new content to.


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captain yesterday wrote:
Once you smurf you can't stop.

Of course you can. I can stop smurf whenever I want...Oh wait a second...

The Exchange

James Jacobs wrote:
Stereofm wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


True.

The part about it being an error that the elves got portrayed in the wrong way (in part due to a lack of my time and inexperience as a developer, and in part due to the author drawing too much on classic D&D/Tolkein elf lore).

The part where my last name is missing its "s" is not true though.

Somehow, I am somewhat sad to read this.

I understand that you want a gaming atmosphere as friendly as possible, everybody is welcome for Golarion, and I deeply respect this.

The part of me that is sad though, is that I have the feeling that all of you are self-censoring yourselves because of this, in fear that someone might get offended. I don't mind adult and edgy themes, done right.

Please keep up the good work, and dare show evil for what it is. A good villain for an AP, is a villain you want DEAD, DEAD, DEAD !!!

All the best.

It's not self-censoring to go back and fix an error. I always INTENDED the elves of Golarion to be more friendly and approachable and kind. They're chaotic good after all. Furthermore, this would help to separate Pathfinder elves from the aloof Tolkeiny elves that have been in D&D settings to date.

It's not that I'm afraid of offending someone at all. It's that the way elves were portrayed in that AP was simply "wrong" for Golarion, in the same way that had we portrayed halflings as 1 foot tall cannibals or dwarves as tree-dwelling beardless cyclopes would have been wrong.

We'll still show evil for what it is. Fixing the error in how elves were presented in Second Darkness has no real effect on that; it's an entirely different topic, in fact.

Evil elves (not just drow) are a huge part of Second Darkness, and that wouldn't change.

The idea that "all elves are jerks" is the problem.

James, I appreciate you sharing this. I think they are. But, like all elf empires, they are distrustful of the shorter lived races and their impulsiveness. They are kind of like the Vulcans in the show Enterprise with Captain Archer and his crew. However, less stuffy.

The shadow council of the elves is there to preserve the Elven interests on the world of Golarion in my view (Second Darkness sheds lots of light on who they are). The Drow are just bitter, sadistic and demon worshippers.


LoF and SSkull.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Kingmaker would be at the top of the list for me so far - only the CRB was out when it was released so there's tons of new material which could fit wonderfully (I know a certain tyrant who could use a rebuild to Skald from his Bard/Barbarian multiclass, hint hint). As the AP with the most downtime (afaik) it practically begs to include the Ultimate Campaign rules, and the old kingdom-building and mass combat rules should be updated to fit the new standards. Its brand of story-driven sandbox allows players to approach most problems however they wish and has potential for many interesting RP scenarios as the party builds a kingdom from the ground-up. In my opinion it is one of the best APs for new players as it leaves their imagination free to take the reins rather than simply going from point A to point B as the plot demands.

I'm just really fond of this campaign. I've run the first encounter like 5 times now and it never gets old seeing what strategies players come up with to win. That sort of campaign is very appealing as a player and as a GM, so I'd love to get my hands on a hardcover remake.

Shadow Lodge

Flynn Greywalker wrote:
They are kind of like the Vulcans in the show Enterprise with Captain Archer and his crew.

This is not a flattering comparison. Granted, anyone with eyes to see knows that Archer and co. could barely crew a dinghy let alone a starship, but the writers purposely dragged the Vulcans through the mud in a clumsy attempt to make the humans look better.

Liberty's Edge

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CBDunkerson wrote:

I disagree.

An AP which even attempted to provide encounters and guidance for every possible route the party might take and every decision they could make in regards to the beings they encounter would be hundreds of pages long, 99% of that material would never be used... and it still wouldn't be enough to cover every eventuality.
The Serpent's Skull party wants to try to reason with the guy who kidnaps one of their NPC allies, slits her throat, and throws her off a roof? Sure, they can do that (indeed, the AP even mentions that option). They want to not kill him and his supporters? The AP specifically allows for that too. They want to abandon their mission to stop an evil serpent god from arising and side with the violent revolutionaries in their stated goal to kill ALL foreigners (including the PCs themselves)? I have trouble seeing how that is 'heroic', but... ok the AP doesn't specifically mention such a possibility, but the players CAN do that. Nothing preventing them. It just falls into territory where the GM has to handle things.
That isn't "lazy" or "s%+!ty"... that's inevitable. If a GM can't handle a party doing unexpected things that isn't a flaw in the AP.

Serpent's Skull spoilers:
Ah yes, the AP mentions the "option" of reasoning with a man who . . . just won't be reasoned with, because he immediately retreats down a ladder. The adventure states that "If they want to rescue their friend, the PCs will have to defeat Umagro." There's no way to save Gelik without beating up Umagro, basically. That IS lazy.

Frankly, Umagro is a straw man for indigenous rights activism. Hitchcock gave him completely unsympathetic goals so that the PCs wouldn't have any way to side with him. It IS s#%~ty to imply "Abolitionists are BAD because they want to kill foreigners!" And to use that as justification for "It's impossible to side with them without derailing the entire adventure path" is lazy. Imagine if the space used by the multiple paragraphs about what Umagro does with his hostage, or one of the insurgent encounters inside the factory (which my PCs never entered) was instead devoted to explaining how the PCs could convince Umagro to release his captive without more violence.

The railroading of Racing to Ruin would be fine if it didn't railroad the PCs into working for colonials and killing Mwangi. You say that siding with the Freeman's Brotherhood (which are stated to only recently have turned violent) would make the PCs unable to stop Ydersius - why? The PCs' motivation for going to Saventh-Yhi is loot-, knowledge-, and maybe fame-based; they get some foreshadowing of Ydersius' rise, but as I understand it have no clear idea of what's going to happen until Juliver appears. And why is fighting an evil snake god who wants to enslave mankind heroic while fighting evil colonials who are actively enslaving Mwangi people is . . . not?

A fixed adventure would at least make it possible to reason with Umagro and have him listen to what the PCs say. Even better, it'd cut that subplot and introduce e.g. Rivermen's Guild thugs who try to shanghai one of the favored castaway NPCs, or Nine Forts Collective agents who manage to enslave that NPC (all at the request of the opposing faction). EVEN BETTER, it'd be possible for the PCs to take the Freeman's Brotherhood as a faction, and to use their wealth and power to benefit the most disenfranchised of Sargava. My players want to feel like they're playing heroes for the whole adventure path, not just the last two books.

Dark Archive

Legacy of Fire and Kingmaker.
Also Carrion Crown.

Smurf me!

Shadow Lodge

Marco Massoudi wrote:
Smurf me!

Out of curiosity, how many smurf avatars are there?


A smurfing lot.

Dark Archive

smurftastic!


There aren't that many, i think you guys have already cycled through most of them. :-)


Tangent101 wrote:

I have no doubt at all that if they created Smurfs as a playable race, someone would want to play one of the Purple Smurfs (insane smurfs whose insanity is spread by biting the tail of another smurf - basically, Dawn of the Dead using Smurfs and done up as a Saturday Morning cartoon because the 80s were a period of insane awesomeness and weird hair) and insist that theirs was a "good" Purple Smurf.

Interesting point of trivia is that the purple smurfs were originally black and got changed into purple for the American market.

Obiviously Paizo stole the idea when designing the Golarion smurfs :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

All this smurfing is totaly not derailing the thread.....

Jade Regent could use a hardover too and especially an alternative beginning starting in a different part of Tian Xia...


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I have no intention of smurfing anything on these boards...

(should have used my inside posting voice)


Zaister wrote:
It bears notice, I think, that black is just as unnatural a skin color as purple. Black people do not have black skin, they have brown skin.

There are actually a very small number of people, primarily from central Africa, who are completely black and immune to the black and white color filter. Same with people who are actually "white" without being albino. Both are significantly more common than people who are blue due to ingesting silver or have a really unfortunate heart condition.

As far as I know though there are 0 people with purple skin.


So, when is the Legacy of Fire hardcover coming out?

The Exchange

There are 5 I have in mind, in this order:
1. Shattered Star
2. Second Darkness
3. Legacy of Fire
4. Skull and Shackles
5. Jade Throne

Dark Archive

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Council of Thieves. I say this one because 1) I started Pathfinder playing this AP, and so I have a lot of personal love for this adventure. 2) It was written while Pathfinder's mechanics were still being de-wrinkled, and so it could definitely use a revision to work out the mechanic kinks so many of us have complained about. 3) As much as I personally love Cheliax, the last two APs set there do not hold the same kind of Cheliax "vibe" that CoT did.

Please, Paizo, give this a thought at least!


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As an expert on Council of Thieves, I would love to take a crack at fixing some of its issues.

I can't say anything more... yet. ^_^


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Chalk me up for another one of the Second Darkness people. It'd make it neat for a group to all be able to do RotR, CotCT, SD, and Shattered Star under the same ruleset, as well as update some of the setting stuff to match the more current Pathfinder things. Could have an updated overview on the Drow settlements in the Darklands and such. I also just generally love Darklands and Drow-related stuff, so...


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As has been mentioned before, the criteria for the first two has been: 1) 3.5 rules and 2) sold out of print stock (completely, or almost completely... at least sufficiently for Paizo to feel like they aren't wasting their efforts re-visiting the AP).

Criterion 1 means only Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire are on the "short list".

Criterion 2 means neither of those qualify. At that point, Kingmaker becomes the most favorable candidate.

Unless something changes, then, there are no APs that meet the two main criteria. There is no commitment from Paizo to even do anothery, anyway, so it is possible the lack of a "perfect" candidate could delay or prevent another hardcover compilation.

In terms of needing help (aside from being written for 3.5), the main candidates are likely:


  • Second Darkness: Because it has created a more negative impression of Elves in Golarion, and for other errors (though I have to wonder if the bad impression is more due to the readers' past experiences with elves in other settings).
  • Serpent's Skull: Because production issues led to problems even getting the adventures done, and the result was unsatisfactory.
  • Wrath of the Righteous: Because the Mythic rules were being developed at the same time, and discrepancies produced unintended effects that soured some people on Mythic altogether.

As for some of the other common requests:


  • Kingmaker: Sold out is a good sign, and the popularity of requests leave it a solid candidate... but the rules changes affecting it are pretty much all on the PRD. Substituting the updated Kingdom and Mass Combat rules is pretty easy, so this actually is among the lowest priorities, in terms of "needing help" anyway.
  • Council of Thieves: May be in need of some tweaking to the rules, but suffers from being unpopular.

Based on a quick analysis of message-board posts here on the Paizo forums, weighted to represent the time since announcement of each AP, the winners and losers (in terms of activity) are:

TOP 5 ACTIVITY (listed from most to least active):


  • Rise of the Runelords*
  • Kingmaker
  • Wrath of the Righteous
  • Iron Gods
  • Carrion Crown

BOTTOM 5 ACTIVITY (listed from least active to most):


  • Second Darkness
  • Legacy of Fire
  • Council of Thieves
  • Shattered Star
  • Mummy's Mask

*Rise of the Runelords gained a "bump" from the Anniversary Edition, so its numbers may be over-stated in comparison to the others for that reason. Curse of the Crimson Throne, which has just released a similar compilation, placed "dead center" (10th out of 20) for activity-weighted-by-time in that analysis.

Methodology and Raw Data:
For those who care about the method and data..

Using the total posts and thread counts for each AP (listed in their headers here on the forums), and the estimated number of months since they were announced (because Ironfang Invasion would ascend to the top with a number of threads in 0 months if I used release dates...), I calculated the raw "posts per month" and "threads per month". Posts per thread would not be all that helpful, especially considering that there had been some contentious threads (esp. re: Wrath of the Righteous).

The Data, as of Sept 9:


  • Rise of the Runelords: 52,154 posts in 3,791 threads over 114 months
  • Curse of the Crimson Throne: 16,064 posts in 1,247 threads over 108 months
  • Second Darkness: 6,297 posts in 428 threads over 104 months
  • Legacy of Fire: 6,035 posts in 486 threads over 98 months
  • Council of Thieves: 6,424 posts in 529 threads over 92 months
  • Kingmaker: 34,424 posts in 2,260 threads over 86 months
  • Serpent's Skull: 7,751 posts in 480 threads over 80 months
  • Carrion Crown: 15,513 posts in 1,072 threads over 74 months
  • Jade Regent: 8,178 posts in 584 threads over 68 months
  • Skull & Shackles: 11, 035 posts in 849 threads over 62 months
  • Shattered Star: 3,969 posts in 264 threads over 56 months
  • Reign of Winter: 7,469 posts in 376 threads over 50 months
  • Wrath of the Righteous: 14,312 posts in 591 threads over 44 months
  • Mummy's Mask: 3,236 posts in 179 threads over 38 months
  • Iron Gods: 7,601 posts in 353 threads over 32 months
  • Giantslayer: 2,303 posts in 109 threads over 26 months
  • Hell's Rebels: 3,359 posts in 173 threads over 20 months
  • Hell's Vengeance: 2,080 posts in 85 threads over 14 months
  • Strange Aeons: 1,322 posts in 46 threads over 8 months
  • Irongang Invasion: 231 posts in 8 threads over 2 months

Silver Crusade Contributor

Thank you for the in-depth analysis! ^_^


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well, it's been 4 years since the release of Runelords Anniversary hardcover edition, and they just now released a 2nd hardcover. I believe they said they wouldn't release another hardcover after Runelords unless it sold well. They have also said the same thing in regards to Crimson Throne selling well.

So I wouldn't hold my breath on any other AP being released in updated hardcover for at least 1-2 years. As for the next one, in the case that it does happen, I would have to say it will be Second Darkness. Unfortunately, I don't think the next 2 APs were all that popular when they first came out (Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire), and then you have Council of Thieves after that, which seems to be rather mixed. And besides, we have had 2 back-to-back Cheliax APs, and it would be a bit overkill for another. Bad enough we had 3 Varisia APs back to back (Runelords, Crimson Throne, Second Darkness), with another starting out there (Jade Regent), and I believe Shattered Star does too?

I would think their higher priorities would be bringing the 3rd edition-based APs up to Pathfinder rules before any of the others. I could be wrong about that, though.


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I think Legacy of Fire never really got the admiration it deserves. Probably inevitable, given the new rules were looming. Nonetheless, there are some absolute gems in there, IMO.

I can't imagine opinions like that factoring in to their calculations, but it would be nice to revisit it.


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Adjule wrote:

....

I would think their higher priorities would be bringing the 3rd edition-based APs up to Pathfinder rules before any of the others. I could be wrong about that, though.

If your talking about Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire.

I'd hope Second Darkness gets the Update as it also had story issues.

If your talking about Shackled City, Age of Worms, and Savage Tide.
Those they can't, as those are property of WotC.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
RHMG Animator wrote:
Adjule wrote:

....

I would think their higher priorities would be bringing the 3rd edition-based APs up to Pathfinder rules before any of the others. I could be wrong about that, though.

If your talking about Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire.

I'd hope Second Darkness gets the Update as it also had story issues.

If your talking about Shackled City, Age of Worms, and Savage Tide.
Those they can't, as those are property of WotC.

Yeah, I was talking about Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire. I know they couldn't do those other 3, as I believe they are based in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms? While the other 2 are based in Golarion.

I agree with you about Second Darkness, and Steve Geddes about Legacy of Fire. I have perused LoF, and thought it looked like an interesting adventure. I have played in Second Darkness. My dislike of drow aside, the portions that I played were kinda confusing. The whole casino thing in the beginning didn't make much sense in relation to the rest of the adventure. To me, the whole Drow aspect felt out of nowhere. I think we got to the beginning of book 3 before everyone decided to stop. I felt that it was a bit out of place.

I do feel that Crimson Throne will probably do well enough to warrant them spending time and effort (and money) into releasing Second Darkness in an updated hardback (as that would be my guess as to the next choice), but I am not sure if that would do well enough for an updated Legacy of Fire. Or, if they feel the same, they may do one of their higher selling ones (like Kingmaker, which could go for a more coherent plot and more Brevoy interaction).

I personally would like an updated Legacy of Fire, as more gnolls would be great (I love gnolls, as can be seen by my avatar).


I have to cast my vote for Second Darkness followed by Legacy of Fire. I know in Second Darkness I would like to see the Chevalier PrC updated to a full 10th level Pathfinder version.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I very much doubt that a Second Darkness collection would include the chevalier prestige class at all. This class was part of the Cayden Cailean article in the then-quarterly series of articles on deities. The spherewalker from the Desna article in #2 was not updated in the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, nor the justiciar from the Abadar article in #8 in the Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover.

These deity articles were reworked in Inner Sea Gods, and the fact that none of these prestige classes were updated and included there, tells us, I think, that Paizo has moved on from them, and we're probably not going to see them again.


Good point Zaister. One can always hope though. I do not have the hardcover of Curse yet.

Shadow Lodge

DanyRay wrote:
I'd want Crimson throne, it's 3.5 and I still miss #1.

You're in luck.


Zaister wrote:

I very much doubt that a Second Darkness collection would include the chevalier prestige class at all. This class was part of the Cayden Cailean article in the then-quarterly series of articles on deities. The spherewalker from the Desna article in #2 was not updated in the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, nor the justiciar from the Abadar article in #8 in the Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover.

These deity articles were reworked in Inner Sea Gods, and the fact that none of these prestige classes were updated and included there, tells us, I think, that Paizo has moved on from them, and we're probably not going to see them again.

Some more prestige classes that are probably in the same boat are the Justiciar from the original Curse of the Crimson Throne; Daivrat from Qadira, Gateway to the East; Genie Binder from Legacy of Fire; and Inheritor's Crusader from Council of Thieves.


Kingmaker, I'd love to see a honest to god full sandbox Kingmaker book, I feel that the AP layout really kicked what Kingmaker could've been out from under it.
'Here is where things are, here's a list of antagonists in the area and their starting level, here's their eventual goals and potential as a BBEG; main story line could go like this'

God, it'd be so good.


Zaister wrote:
It bears notice, I think, that black is just as unnatural a skin color as purple. Black people do not have black skin, they have brown skin.

There are black people with black skin. It is not unnatural, but it is rare.

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