...lots of good stuff.
I've been grappling with this as well. On some level I really like the notion of attaching it to wizard schools as that flavors the occultist to feel like a dabbler or an amateur spellcaster, which I really like. That being said, the implements as presented don't feel quite right. At this point, I see two possible courses of action:
1) Dissociate implements from their corresponding schools (permitting mirrors of necromancy, wands of abjuration, etc.), which would allow players to flavor their characters as appropriate. As both a player and a GM, I feel as though this might be the best option.
2) Abandon schools altogether and focus on implements as groups with their own specific foci, as Renchard suggests. This has the potential to make the class better stand on its own, but risks imperiling a player's flavor options. I would hate to be stuck using a bell as an implement simply because its mechanics executed what a wand could not. (That being said, I like that Renchard's categories [object d'art, memento mori, trinkets, etc.] are sufficiently vague to accommodate a number of options.)
Speaking to the first course, I confess, I was also hoping that this class might have a way for occultists to focus exclusively on just one or a small handful of schools. It might allow them to be even more specialized than the specialist wizard (gasp, sacrilege!), but at the expense of the wizard's versatility (which as we all know, is a TREMENDOUS asset).
I think we are all very excited about this class and want to see it perform well alongside the other new and preexisting options. Many of us, myself included, likely see this as a viable alternative to full arcane casters for campaigns (or campaign settings) with more horror and fewer fantasy elements.
...
I do think that may not have been the intent of the designer. As far as previous responses go, there was no expectation that the occultist should share their implements (since they loose their spellcasting is lost without them).
A quick question for Jason and/or the Design Team:
Whenever an occultist casts a spell, he must have the corresponding implement in his possession and he must present the implement to the target or toward the area of affect.
How does this interact with worn implements, such as the transmutation vest and the abjuration cloak? It seems inconvenient in the middle of battle to remove a piece of clothing and hold it in your hands in order to cast a spell. (I hope this can be clarified for the RAW folks.)
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It doesn't specify needing to hold the item, so as far as I can tell you could cast spells through stuff like belts by pelvic thrusting at your foes.
...I do think that may not have been the intent of the designer. As far as previous responses go, there was no expectation that the occultist should share their implements (since they loose their spellcasting is lost without them).
Well, the class is even farther behind if the intent was to only have bonuses for yourself (as attack/defense/damage bonuses on a fighter are more valuable than those same bonuses on a caster). But am I missing something? can't you have multiple implements of the same type? I thought "implement" bought you the whole group. I am having trouble finding the wording. So you give out a sword and keep another sword or whatever for yourself and can thus cast. I'll read up later.
It doesn't specify needing to hold the item, so as far as I can tell you could cast spells through stuff like belts by pelvic thrusting at your foes.
What this guy said.
Honestly, while I like the overall skeleton of the class, my biggest beef is tying the implements into the overused wizard schools. Why not design the powers around the major types of implements, rather than using the implements as a proxy for the schools? Let the occultist master an implement type to gain their spells, and also have class abilities to strengthen the powers of magic items that they find, thus giving them a greater incentive to seek out new treasures?
Something like:
Weapons - learn spells that increase personal combat power, and the ability to grant extra abilities to focused weapons.
Clothing (including armor) - learn spells that increase personal defense and personal transformation, and grant extra abilities to your armor, and other body slot items.
Magical tools (wands, staves, rods) - learn spells that grant magical attacks, and grant extra abilities to magical implements.
Objet d'art (valuable slotless items, gems and other valuables) - learn spells that influence emotion, grant extra abilities to slotless items.
Momento mori (relics of the dead, many items may fit into other categories) - learn spells of knowledge and necromancy, some minor enhancement abilities.
Trinkets (useful but consumable items, various tools) - spells of utility and transformation, can be enhanced to grant to various utility functions.
I like it.
Lead Designer
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As an FYI, we went with schools because they already have a definition in the game. Shifting to objects would open up the spell choices very wide and turn the class into another straight-forward spontaneous caster. Not that there is anything wrong with that per se, but it was not our goal with this class. Generic groupings based on theme, such as "personal combat spells", is not something we can rely on in a mechanical sense since many spells are difficult to categorize. In the end, we would have to redraw the entire spell list to make that work.
I am not sure it is worth the effort and it would be a real pain going forward.
That said, we are still mulling things over, as usual for a play test.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
As someone pointed out in another thread: The occultist doesn't have any* spells on her spell list that work with the summoning focus resonant power.
*Or at least "many". I haven't checked thoroughly, but at the least it's missing the usual suspects for 1 round/level summons, such as summon monster I and summon nature's ally.
Yeah, this is a problem I will be looking to correct one way or the other.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I know this was only brought up yesterday, but any chance of this getting corrected in time for play this weekend?
It doesn't specify needing to hold the item, so as far as I can tell you could cast spells through stuff like belts by pelvic thrusting at your foes.
Nice for an archer or 2-handed weapon build.
...I do think that may not have been the intent of the designer. As far as previous responses go, there was no expectation that the occultist should share their implements (since they loose their spellcasting is lost without them).Well, the class is even farther behind if the intent was to only have bonuses for yourself (as attack/defense/damage bonuses on a fighter are more valuable than those same bonuses on a caster). But am I missing something? can't you have multiple implements of the same type? I thought "implement" bought you the whole group. I am having trouble finding the wording. So you give out a sword and keep another sword or whatever for yourself and can thus cast. I'll read up later.
It doesn't specify needing to hold the item, so as far as I can tell you could cast spells through stuff like belts by pelvic thrusting at your foes.What this guy said.
I think your good for the spells. I may be getting confused.
Definitly getting mixed up, but here:
"The occultist needs only one such item to cast a spell of the corresponding school, unless he selected that implement group multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that group."
So, if you have 2 implements of the "transmutation" type, you can select 2 transmutation spells you can cast, per level, on that day.
"Whenever an occultist casts a spell, he must have the
corresponding implement in his possession "
So, if you dont have the implement corresponding to the chosen spell, you cant cast it. Thus, if you pass a given implement to an ally, you lose the ability to cast the associated spell, since he needs the one item per spell known.
However, while legacy weapon wont work on a non-implement ( thus making it a hard to spread power), Psychic weapon could. The duration makes it impractical though.
This is getting really confusing though. No problems with the pelvic thrusting however.
And if I'm wrong, please correct me. This is how I understand, but it does seem overly convoluted.
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We've had people talk about Harry Dresden and the Mandarin and I had a similar image of Thanos holding the infinity gauntlets with each gem having a power. I could see precious gems being an enchantment focus
I kind of feel like this is a class that is going to need a bandoleer to carry their implements with.
I do like the spells but item type idea but understand the desire to simplify by just having them use the established schools. Either would be fine with me.
I would like that however much you charged an item it would stay at that level even if you used effects from it. I can see cases where people won't want to use points from their focus items because they will lose their bonuses.
The spell list needs some tweaking to match up to the supplied abilities which people have already mentioned.
Overall I like the flavor and it feels variable in its role while still allowing focus giving players options. I do feel that classes have failed when there is one clear best build there should be variety and a desire to experiment and I feel like this class has those options once it gets tweaked
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I'd prefer keeping the the usage of wizard schools; beyond using existing game terms, this also sort of gets at the flavor if feel they are going for; This is the "wizard" if one initially based the class around real world occult and folk practices, so it makes sense it would use wizard terminology.
I'm not absolutely sold on the idea of handing the implements out to others. That sort of ability might be better handled through an archetype or a feat?
A feat like 'Implement Specialization' would also be cool - something like a watered down version of the 20th level capstone.
About the Spell List, I really like the mix of spells. I would like to see Scorching Ray or Molten Orb added to second level personally... Some type of single target option that can pack a little punch.
Given the Occultist's theme is using objects to gain powers, I'd love to see some class ability or spell that models psychometry. Basically, this could allow the occultist to read the history of an item to solve for clues and such in an adventure. Would be really cool and thematic.
So if I am reading this correctly. At first level the occultist gets 2 implements and can add one knack and one 1st level spell belonging to each implement group to the spells he knows.
And every level there after he adds one spell per implement of a spell level he can use.
Correct?
Given the Occultist's theme is using objects to gain powers, I'd love to see some class ability or spell that models psychometry. Basically, this could allow the occultist to read the history of an item to solve for clues and such in an adventure. Would be really cool and thematic.
Did you look at the 2nd level class feature, Object Reading?
I must've missed that on my first read through. Never mind, carry on.
First of all I want to say that I love the concept for this class, specifically the implement based casting and powers. It's a really neat casting system I would not have expected and allows for a lot of customization.
It may be a bit early to start thinking about archetypes but I love the idea of an archetype for Occultist that gains inspiration or some other investigator skill abilities or an archetype for Investigator that trades out Alchemy for some Occultist implement casting / focus powers.
Since entire schools are unlocked at once when an implement is selected it feels more "researchy" than standard spell casting or even alchemy and is a concept I would love to see on the Investigator.
Performing search for "Fullbring".
0 results.
HOW CAN THIS BE?
If people can gush ad infinitum (and deservedly so!) about KinetiBenders, then I will just say that this class, aside from being a very apt choice for a Dresden type game, lends itself well to people who want to play the Fullbringers from Bleach.
This is an awesome thing.
Okay. I have re-approached this class and am now thinking of it as less of an artificer and more of as a class that gets a bunch of class-specific special abilities. Now he is looking kinda neat. However, some of you guys are talking about this class like it is some kind of new magus.
Am I the only one who thinks melee builds (and maybe ranged builds) are kind of a huge trap for this class?
At level 1: a legacy weapon or a physical enhancement belt put your right with the fighter in terms of attack accuracy and will put you ahead in damage if you invest heavily in strength.
Mr. strength occultist (Hellboy?) is looking pretty good.
At level 12 (chosen to be a "favorable" high/mid-range level): You are 3 points behind on BAB. Most PCs will have around a +3 weapon and the stat enhancement belt appropriate for that level so you are really only be getting around a +2 to accuracy and damage from your legacy weapon and then maybe like 2d6 in energy damage. So for accuracy, you are sitting about 4 (20%) behind a fighter (with 2 weapon trainings and greater weapon focus; this assumes that the occultist picks up the first weapon focus)
If you want to keep all your extra damage, you need to tie up 12 points of your focus in the sword.
At level 13 (chosen to be an "unfavorable" high/mid-range level): You are now 4 points behind on BAB. Accuracy and damage bonuses from legacy weapon is the same. You are now about 6 points behind the fighter in accuracy (30%). Your first attack is now worse than the fighter's second attack in terms of attack (and likely damage).
My point is that by around 12 or 13, it is almost always going to make more sense to use the focus in your weapons to cast something like Telekinetic mastery rather than actually hit something with your sword.
The strong occultist is now a chump, led in by the promise of might given to him at level 1.
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Stuff
You aren't alone - I seem to be one of the few that thinks the Occultist retains decent melee utility... but you've got to think beyond only the damage they're dealing.
Will you deal as much damage as a fighter - probably not, but do you need to? - also probably not.
You are still able to retain decent melee potential, massive flexibility (as by changing your focus investments you can turn from a combat based to a social beast with Glorious Presence), and while the spell list is limited, you have much more high level spells than a typical spontaneous caster. (Eg. at level 13 you get access to five 5th level spells, where most would only have two).
Could it use a couple more combat boosters? - probably, a few combat spell boosters, a psychic version of Arcane Strike would help to mitigate that gap as well. Maybe a Focus Power that allows a Spellstrike?
The class is fine with 4+Int as it's an Int based caster - it'll have as many or more skill points than your average Bard, which is fine.
I wholeheartedly agree with both Excaliburproxy and Mark Sweetman.
As an FYI, we went with schools because they already have a definition in the game. Shifting to objects would open up the spell choices very wide and turn the class into another straight-forward spontaneous caster. Not that there is anything wrong with that per se, but it was not our goal with this class. Generic groupings based on theme, such as "personal combat spells", is not something we can rely on in a mechanical sense since many spells are difficult to categorize. In the end, we would have to redraw the entire spell list to make that work.
I am not sure it is worth the effort and it would be a real pain going forward.
That said, we are still mulling things over, as usual for a play test.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I for one am happy to hear that the wizard schools may remain a core aspect of the class. It's a huge amount of design space that has really only had a meaningful impact on the wizard (and to a lesser extent, the arcanist), so it'll be nice to see Pathfinder get a little more mileage out of it.
I do wonder, however, if the class might benefit from a bonded object-esque mechanic. Maybe even with the ability to 1/day spontaneously cast any spell from that school, even if he doesn't know it (of any level he can cast or lower, of course)? Plus, the ability to Craft for that item as per the wizard class feature could be very flavorful. I don't mind seeing mechanics like that recycled, especially if they're fitting.
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Well there is a bell, and I guess the lantern can work as the candle, but I am disappointed that there is no book.
StuffYou aren't alone - I seem to be one of the few that thinks the Occultist retains decent melee utility... but you've got to think beyond only the damage they're dealing.
Will you deal as much damage as a fighter - probably not, but do you need to? - also probably not.
You are still able to retain decent melee potential, massive flexibility (as by changing your focus investments you can turn from a combat based to a social beast with Glorious Presence), and while the spell list is limited, you have much more high level spells than a typical spontaneous caster. (Eg. at level 13 you get access to five 5th level spells, where most would only have two).
Could it use a couple more combat boosters? - probably, a few combat spell boosters, a psychic version of Arcane Strike would help to mitigate that gap as well. Maybe a Focus Power that allows a Spellstrike?
The class is fine with 4+Int as it's an Int based caster - it'll have as many or more skill points than your average Bard, which is fine.
Well, accuracy is the more important issue, I think. If a level 13 fighter and a level 13 occultist swing their swords as a standard action 10 times, an occultist who has built towards strength will more or less hit 3 times fewer than than the fighter on his first swing of the round (if I am going to omit corner cases). That is ignoring the fact that the fighter has a 3rd iterative attack.
Moreover if you wanted a versatile character then you probably did not try to get a super high strength to begin with and you probably did not drop all your stat increases into strength as the fighter likely did. In that case, you are even farther behind.
You have to figure that you are kind of wasting your time hitting guys with a sword and investing feats in hitting guys with a sword when you could just use all your feats on focus powers and then just throw a bunch of little fireballs or whatever every round.
The combat build that is maybe optimal at levels one through around 7 or 8 is in shambles by level 13 because the enhancement bonuses to accuracy are capping at 5.
Maguses sort of have this "problem" too, but they have abilities other than their enhancement bonuses that still make their melee attacks the preferable course of action; as that class approaches level 10 or so it stops being an accurate damage deal and starts depending on doing big damage with the few hits it lands.
This occultist comes into no such kingdom. I don't even think it needs to. However, if this class is eventually going to be terrible in melee combat, I would prefer it if it were never great at it in the beginning of the game.
Maybe this class could get some kind of
Refracting Focus - Why offer this when there are no pattern spells on the Occultist spell list?
Refracting Focus - Why offer this when there are no pattern spells on the Occultist spell list?
Good catch!
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This might just be me taking cues from my favorite magical presentation in Negima (some very in tune spell casting from some characters).
YEAH NEGIMA! I already imagine all my alchemist spellcasting like that weird potion-casting used in the first few volumes.
But yeah, fusin foci would be interesting
Refracting Focus - Why offer this when there are no pattern spells on the Occultist spell list?Good catch!
No, seriously. I'm trying to build one each of these classes and the little contradictions on this class, as written, are making it really difficult to focus on anything but a pure martial build.
Occultist kinda feels like a fifth wheel, sorta like the bard but less buffs and more utility. I can't see one taking the place of a party wizard/cleric/fighter/rogue, but it can, due to the large variety of abilities it gets, aid a group in multiple situations. A least that's how it looks to me, maybe someone with extensive play-testing could elaborate (or correct my assumption).
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He has a good skill selection and will be rocking 7-8 skill points per level. He also rocks out UMD due to Magic Item Skill. Object Reading is situationally awesome as well - and can help both player and DM to breadcrumb plots and nudge things along.
While the spell list is limited, he will typically have more spell choices than your typical spontaneous caster. The spell list also includes healing, blasting, mind altering and Necromancy - it's limited but broad.
You can reset your focus on a day by day basis - use Legacy Weapon to tweak your sword to be holy before facing demons, undead bane before you go into a crypt... then when you come back to town switch on Glorious Presence through your helm.
TL:DR - Utility is your trademark, that and flexibility. You can contribute in all scenarios - plus the way in which you get to do it is freaking cool.
Come to think about it you could get away with an intelligence score of 16-20 if you skip on attack spells and stick to utility spells and heals.
I was playing around with ability scores and magic items and got this. At 1st level.
Strength 14
Dexterity 12
Constitution 12
Intelligence 18
Wisdom 10
Charisma 10
This is assuming a 20pt point buy and the race being elf.
If by 20th level you decided to raise strength instead of intelligence, and you purchased the fallowing magic items.
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137,500) & Belt of Physical Perfection +6 (144,000) & Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 (4,000). You would end up with the fallowing ability scores.
Strength 30
Dexterity 18
Constitution 18
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 10
Charisma 10
Of course other then fort save you would still need a magic item to increase your reflex and will saves to be survivable, as well as a good weapon, armor, and some potions. Just use your implements for everything else.
Now add in Physical Enhancement and add it to strength. Your first hit is almost a guarantee, second is around 50/50, and not to bad on the damage output. No where as good as fighter damage, but not bad.
