General Discussion: Occultist


Rules Discussion

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Paizo Employee Lead Designer

This thread is for general discussion of the Occultist base class, found in the Occult Adventures Playtest document. This thread should be used for general impressions and overall concerns and ideas. Feedback on a specific concept or rule should have its own thread created by you.

As a reminder, please be polite and courteous to your fellow posters. We are all hear to endeavor to create a better play experience with these rules and excessive arguing and insults are inappropriate.

Thank you again for participating in the Occult Adventures Playtest

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


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This one is a strange one but I do like the item focused nature.


The name "Occultist" is already in use - it's an Arcanist Archtype in the Advanced Class Guide.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

whew wrote:
The name "Occultist" is already in use - it's an Arcanist Archtype in the Advanced Class Guide.

True, but this is something we have done before. In fact, a number of the class names in the ACG were used in Archetypes. Although we prefer to avoid such confusion, in some cases it is inevitable as the name is just to good a fit for the class or concept.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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I have a question about this Transmutation ability (and the similar one for Abjuration):

Transmutation wrote:

Legacy Weapon (Su): You unlock a latent ability from the

power of the implement’s history. When you choose this
resonant power, select a weapon special ability with an
equivalent enhancement bonus less than or equal to +1 for
every 3 points of mental focus invested in the implement
(to a maximum of 1 + 1/4 your occultist level). As long as the
implement qualifies for the ability, it gains that weapon
special ability as long as it contains at least 3 points of mental
focus per +1 equivalent of the special ability. You can choose
this ability only with a weapon.

Unlike, say, the magus's Arcane Pool, this does not require a +1 enhancement before adding bonuses. It seems to mean that I could put 3 points of mental focus into a weapon to get a (+0) agile weapon at level 1. Is this intended?

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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As of the current writing of the text, this is intentional.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


The Occultist is already in use in Pact Magic Unbound, which is the PFRPG version of the binder. It's a fairly well-known product and will likely be the cause of some confusion.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Caedwyr wrote:
The Occultist is already in use in Pact Magic Unbound, which is the PFRPG version of the binder. It's a fairly well-known product and will likely be the cause of some confusion.

Understandable, but there are only so many words out there that mean what we want them to when it comes to class concepts. Its unfortunately inevitable that we are going to end up stepping on each other's toes from time to time.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


First impression: Exceedingly cool, i WANT to make a character for this.. NOW. But on my first read through I'm kind of lost as to what I'm going to do for my part for the first few levels with a wizards number of spells and a sorcerers spell progression. It looks like a long valley of "meh"

must.. not.. use.. dm.. credit.. to skip.. valuable.. first.. level.. feedback...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Are occultists supposed to receive the mundane implement for free as part of the class feature, similar to a wizard's bonded object?

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

No, but since they can use basically any object that fits the category, its not hard to procure one. They do not even have to be masterwork.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


I am really liking this. It's kind of like a weird psychic magus without the nova. I'm going to have to experiment a bit, but it looks cool.

A few questions:

Resonant powers: can we have multiple ones active, assuming we have multiple implements (I would definitly take transmutation (belt) and (weapon))?
"General mental focus stored inside body" is fairly confusing to me. How does it differentiate from regular mental focus? How is it generated?

Note: Considering how valuable mental focus is, I would LOVE a method through which you can sacrifice spell slots to regain mental focus, kinda like the arcanist's pool.


I don't think it is all that surprising that one could easily convert Doctor Fate or Doctor Strange into Pathfinder with this class.

Honestly though, I think Conjuration will be one of the most used implements. That it can fish out another implement for you and generally have a grab bag of useful tools just guarantees it.


Is there going to be a feat that increases the number of mental focus points available to an Occultist, similar to how the Arcanist, Alchemist, Gunslinger, Monk, and Paladin can increase the uses/day of their similar class features? Extra [Arcane Pool/Bombs/Grit/Ki/Lay on Hands] all grant 2 extra uses for abilities that are normally usable 1/day per 2 class levels (plus 1/day per point of relevant ability modifier); extrapolating that to Mental Focus (which is 3+class level+Int) gives us four points of Focus, but since they grant a bit of an effect when not expended, so maybe Extra Focus (or whatever this theoretical feat is called) should grant four points of Mental Focus? Or maybe three points would be more balanced, since Mental Focus does give a little bit back when it's not expended.


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I already mentioned this in another post, but this would be the perfect class to emulate Harry Dresden. Love the call backs to "real life" magical practices, which makes this class feel more like a wizard than the actual wizard class.

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With bells being used as a possible implement, it is unfortunate that neither books nor candles are as well.


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MMCJawa wrote:
I already mentioned this in another post, but this would be the perfect class to emulate Harry Dresden. Love the call backs to "real life" magical practices, which makes this class feel more like a wizard than the actual wizard class.

Indeed; I'm loving the flavor even more than I like the Kineticist. The idea of having to pull out a skull to cast my necromancy spells is just really cool.

Also, agreed about books and candles.

Edit to Add: regarding my above post about a possible Extra Mental Focus feat: I also suggest the creation of an Extra Focus Power feat, in the same vein as Extra [Discovery/Rogue Talent/Exploit/Arcana/Hex/Rage Power/Revelation/etc].

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Extra Anchovies wrote:
Is there going to be a feat that increases the number of mental focus points available to an Occultist, similar to how the Arcanist, Alchemist, Gunslinger, Monk, and Paladin can increase the uses/day of their similar class features? Extra [Arcane Pool/Bombs/Grit/Ki/Lay on Hands] all grant 2 extra uses for abilities that are normally usable 1/day per 2 class levels (plus 1/day per point of relevant ability modifier); extrapolating that to Mental Focus (which is 3+class level+Int) gives us four points of Focus, but since they grant a bit of an effect when not expended, so maybe Extra Focus (or whatever this theoretical feat is called) should grant four points of Mental Focus? Or maybe three points would be more balanced, since Mental Focus does give a little bit back when it's not expended.

There will undoubtedly be a feat that grants Extra Mental Focus. Right now I am thinking 3 is the number, but I am not set on that.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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Demiurge 1138 wrote:
With bells being used as a possible implement, it is unfortunate that neither books nor candles are as well.

I would not at all consider the list of implements to be final. Not by a long shot.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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MMCJawa wrote:
I already mentioned this in another post, but this would be the perfect class to emulate Harry Dresden.

I am sure that was not at all intentional.. not. at. all.

:)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
williamoak wrote:

Resonant powers: can we have multiple ones active, assuming we have multiple implements (I would definitly take transmutation (belt) and (weapon))?

"General mental focus stored inside body" is fairly confusing to me. How does it differentiate from regular mental focus? How is it generated?

Note: Considering how valuable mental focus is, I would LOVE a method through which you can sacrifice spell slots to regain mental focus, kinda like the arcanist's pool.

You can have multiple resonant powers, just not from the same implement.

When you place your mental focus, you can choose to either keep it in you or store it in your implements. In other words, your mental focus is either in you or in your implements. Your choice.

As for swapping spells back into focus, that is something I will give some thought to, but I want to see how the class plays out a bit first.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


I just did a 1st level playtest for this class (which you can read about here) and feel that there's alot of potential. This class is fairly playable right out of the box.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
williamoak wrote:

Resonant powers: can we have multiple ones active, assuming we have multiple implements (I would definitly take transmutation (belt) and (weapon))?

"General mental focus stored inside body" is fairly confusing to me. How does it differentiate from regular mental focus? How is it generated?

Note: Considering how valuable mental focus is, I would LOVE a method through which you can sacrifice spell slots to regain mental focus, kinda like the arcanist's pool.

You can have multiple resonant powers, just not from the same implement.

When you place your mental focus, you can choose to either keep it in you or store it in your implements. In other words, your mental focus is either in you or in your implements. Your choice.

As for swapping spells back into focus, that is something I will give some thought to, but I want to see how the class plays out a bit first.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Admittedly, this was a contention of confusion for me as well. This also means I left some damage on the table.

Next time, Gadjet, next time...

Theoretical question, would this class be broken if a full BAB was implemented or if Heavy Armor Proficiency was added?


I actually love this class and will likely be using it in place of wizards in my upcoming campaign.


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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
I actually love this class and will likely be using it in place of wizards in my upcoming campaign.

It does indeed seem like it would be a pretty great replacement for the Wizard in a game without full casters. Warpriest can replace Cleric, Hunter can replace Druid, and now Occultist can replace Wizard. I like.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
williamoak wrote:

Resonant powers: can we have multiple ones active, assuming we have multiple implements (I would definitly take transmutation (belt) and (weapon))?

"General mental focus stored inside body" is fairly confusing to me. How does it differentiate from regular mental focus? How is it generated?

Note: Considering how valuable mental focus is, I would LOVE a method through which you can sacrifice spell slots to regain mental focus, kinda like the arcanist's pool.

You can have multiple resonant powers, just not from the same implement.

When you place your mental focus, you can choose to either keep it in you or store it in your implements. In other words, your mental focus is either in you or in your implements. Your choice.

As for swapping spells back into focus, that is something I will give some thought to, but I want to see how the class plays out a bit first.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

So, to be clear, you cannot (normally) leave mental focus "floating around" to be used later, but the mental focus invested in an implement (giving you the "resonant powers") can be consumed.

Example: I've got transmutation (weapon) as an implement.I store 6 points of mental focus, giving me a +2 equivalent bonus on the weapon through "legacy weapon". I can then spend those points to activate "psychic weapon". If I understand correctly, I do NOT lose the +2 bonus abilities, since they stay until I refresh my focus, but I can still consume the mental focus.

Let's say I have 2 mental focus left (in my head, thus generic mental focus), I would have to spend BOTH to activate psychic weapon on my implement.

(this is how I understand it so far. It seems to work fairly well to be honest, I quite like it. It' just a bit confusing, it might be worth including an example in the final book).


First up, I really like the feel of this class, so I'll be making a 1st level one up for PFS play next week.

Second up, what existing feats would you think would go well with this class, beyond the obvious spell focus, Varisian tattoo, Spell specialisation sorta thing?


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The first thing that came to my mind as well:
My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. I'm a wizard.

This is the most Dresden-y class yet... and it looks great. Good utility with medium armor, shields and martial weapons. Good fort, good will and decent skill points (given that Mental Focus is Int based). Flexibility through the roof as well. And yet still it doesn't seem too overpowered.

I like it a lot... and shall ruminate upon it further.

Question - I assume that implements don't consume magic item slots?

Grand Lodge

Having read through the class, it seems cool. I like the item based flavour, reminds me of the incarnum system from 3.5.

I have a few questions though:

1) my reading of it is that if I spend points currently invested in an item, I may reduce the bonus that item provides me. Is this the case?

1b) If so, in the case of items that provide bonuses such as aegis, where the bonus is not a linear increase per point, do I choose which ability is lost? Does my familiar actively downgrade? In the case of the hit point cloak provided by the necromancy focus, the more I get hit, the more "spare" points i have to spend on abilities. it would seem that getting a few "expendable" abilities would be therefore worthwhile.

2) Does the ability provided by aegis stack with existing abilities on the Armour? Can I stack the same bonus again?

some points:

forced allegiance specifies "if the creature is the same type as you". I would treat this as using the same definition of "the same as you" as hideous laughter does, but you may want to clarify.

the unseen ability would seem to indicate that the character remains invisible indefinitely as long as they remain within 30 feet of you once they attack someone. Language may want to be something like "if they attack, as long as they are within 30 feet of you, you may expend a point to allow them to remain invisible as though the had not attacked".

The necromantic servant ability seems underwhelming. The skeleton would have 4 hp, 6hp at level 5. The addition of the giant template doesn't add much to the deal. I'm not sure what role the servant is supposed to fill. It cant do combat at all, without burning a point every time someone attacks him, and even then hes not going to hit anything or deal any damage. From a role-play perspective, having a zombie/skeleton henchman is awesome, but in that case the duration could be extended, and the abilities geared towards helping its master. Maybe it could get an intelligence score (and a lisp and and a hunch) and provide bonus to aid another. Or maybe it could get bodyguard and/or in harms way (quite a bit stronger) and be a different sort of meat shield.

The more I think about it, the more having a free body to move about is handy, but with 4 (6) hp, no intelligence score, no feats or special abilities of any kind and no skills its a bit of stretch to figure out what to do with it.The teamwork feat would be great, if it came into play a lot earlier. The master would still need to buy the feat himself to get any benefit out of it, so I don't feel it would be particularly overwhelming.


I think the key definer there is invest vs expend.

The Implements include the following verbiage: The implement’s bearer gains the benefits of this power until you refresh your focus.

So you invest X focus in an item, then expend it all... you would have no available focus to utilise focus powers - but you would retain the resonant power at the full strength according to investiture.

Or - no, it doesn't reduce the bonus ;)


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First glance:

Good on you for dividing up the spell list by class. Makes it a lot easier to throw a build together.

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Mark Sweetman wrote:

I think the key definer there is invest vs expend.

The Implements include the following verbiage: The implement’s bearer gains the benefits of this power until you refresh your focus.

So you invest X focus in an item, then expend it all... you would have no available focus to utilise focus powers - but you would retain the resonant power at the full strength according to investiture.

Or - no, it doesn't reduce the bonus ;)

On top of that, the Legacy Weapon resonant power specifies that the weapon ability only remains as long as it contains enough mental focus. That suggests the others keep their powers afterward.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
Mark Sweetman wrote:

I think the key definer there is invest vs expend.

The Implements include the following verbiage: The implement’s bearer gains the benefits of this power until you refresh your focus.

So you invest X focus in an item, then expend it all... you would have no available focus to utilise focus powers - but you would retain the resonant power at the full strength according to investiture.

Or - no, it doesn't reduce the bonus ;)

On top of that, the Legacy Weapon resonant power specifies that the weapon ability only remains as long as it contains enough mental focus. That suggests the others keep their powers afterward.

Unfortunate...

Another questions:

In the "transmutation" implements, how does physical enhancement stack up?
1) Lvls 1-5: +2, 6-10: +4... or

2)Lvls 5-9: +2, lvls 10-14: +4...

If it's the second, it might be worth mentioning physical enhancement cant be used before level 5.


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Nitpicky editing note:

The basic description of Focus Powers is on page 33 and the selection of Focus Powers begins on page 35. We don't get to a power that requires a save until page 36. I suspect many people will be skipping ahead to the implements that the class description dances around for three and a half pages. Once I see saving throw, I'm hunting around for where to find its value.

I would suggest either moving the descriptor for a Focus power's DC to the start of the Implements section, or copying it in brief there. Or creating a sidebar for the basics of Focus Powers.


That said, bravo for bookmarking each separate implement group by school.

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williamoak wrote:

Another questions:

In the "transmutation" implements, how does physical enhancement stack up?
1) Lvls 1-5: +2, 6-10: +4... or

2)Lvls 5-9: +2, lvls 10-14: +4...

If it's the second, it might be worth mentioning physical enhancement cant be used before level 5.

I noticed that as well. It looks like option 2 to me, since there is no minimum stated.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
williamoak wrote:

Another questions:

In the "transmutation" implements, how does physical enhancement stack up?
1) Lvls 1-5: +2, 6-10: +4... or

2)Lvls 5-9: +2, lvls 10-14: +4...

If it's the second, it might be worth mentioning physical enhancement cant be used before level 5.

I noticed that as well. It looks like option 2 to me, since there is no minimum stated.

`

That's the same logic I used, but all other resonant powers seem to be usable at level 1, so i'm unsure what the intent is.


I noticed the class has the class skill disable device, and I am not sure if I miss it or not (my pdf reader is acting wonky for some reason), but do they or will they be able to disable magical traps?

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OverLordXIII wrote:
I noticed the class has the class skill disable device, and I am not sure if I miss it or not (my pdf reader is acting wonky for some reason), but do they or will they be able to disable magical traps?

I didn't see it, but that would be a nice power for Abjuration implements.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
OverLordXIII wrote:
I noticed the class has the class skill disable device, and I am not sure if I miss it or not (my pdf reader is acting wonky for some reason), but do they or will they be able to disable magical traps?
I didn't see it, but that would be a nice power for Abjuration implements.

I personal see it as more of an over all class ability.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
I already mentioned this in another post, but this would be the perfect class to emulate Harry Dresden.

I am sure that was not at all intentional.. not. at. all.

:)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

If you publish my build, I'll lose my power!

Harry B. C. Dresden NG Level...

STOP. TYPING. NOW. BOB.


Harry B. C. Dresden wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
I already mentioned this in another post, but this would be the perfect class to emulate Harry Dresden.

I am sure that was not at all intentional.. not. at. all.

:)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

If you publish my build, I'll lose my power!

Harry B. C. Dresden NG Level...

STOP. TYPING. NOW. BOB.

I SHALL HAVE YOUR BUILD UP TONIGHT DRESDEN! THEN I SHALL HOLD ALL THE POWER!


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williamoak wrote:
Harry B. C. Dresden wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
I already mentioned this in another post, but this would be the perfect class to emulate Harry Dresden.

I am sure that was not at all intentional.. not. at. all.

:)

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

If you publish my build, I'll lose my power!

Harry B. C. Dresden NG Level...

STOP. TYPING. NOW. BOB.

I SHALL HAVE YOUR BUILD UP TONIGHT DRESDEN! THEN I SHALL HOLD ALL THE POWER!

Let’s talk potions ingredients! One of my most favored topics. For a well-stocked lab, or a single major entropy curse-esque potion, make sure you have: Fillet of a fenny snake, newt’s eye, frog toe, bat’s wool, dog’s tongue, adder’s fork, blind-worm’s sting, lizard’s leg, mummified witch, intestines of a shark, hemlock root (night harvested)—

THIS ENDS NOW BOB! -Wait, you lifted that list from Shakespeare and from our game's rule book, didn't you.

This wizard put some points into Intelligence...

Shut up, Bob. This didn't get as out of hand as it could have seeing how that list is already published. If my build gets posted though, I'll be robbed of all power!

Main characters are OP, you could stand to get knocked down a peg or two... How many ranks did you put in intimidate?

Keep talking and you'll be five feet under the garden again.

Alright! Alright! You put a large number of points there whose total bonus will not be disclosed.


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Like I said, I get more of a comic book vibe from the Occultist. John Constantine, Dr. Fate, Doctor Strange come to mind when I read some of this. And that's not a bad thing.

On another note, I think an Extra Focus Power feat might be needed at some point. There are a lot of powers that we might want to use for some builds, but not necessarily enough levels to grab them. Possibly an Expanded Implement feat, just to bump up the spells gained from an implement by 1. Maybe just as something to increase DCs.


Occultist is definitely my favorite class in the playtest. It has a great amount of customization for different builds, and the ability to invest general focus into implements at will is a great way to fulfill that "I have an ability for that!" feeling that can be missed in some of the other casting classes.

I haven't gotten the chance to build and test one yet, but it will be the first thing one I do for this playtest. Maybe even a full order of sword-wielding occultists in gray cloaks...

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I've been poring over the Occultist, looking to see if I can make a decent archer out of it (because I promised my wife that our next PFS characters would be a pair of Kitsune archers), but there simply isn't much that boosts combat ability. Even with two transmutation implements to get Legacy Weapon and Physical Enhancement, he lags severely behind a full-BAB class with bonus feats.

Looking over it, I think he suffers from a Jack-of-all-trades problem. He has a few boosts to combat ability, but not enough to make up for medium BAB and no bonus feats. And he has a few boosts to different spellcasting styles, but not enough to make up for being a 6-level spellcasting class. And most of the abilities cost mental focus for instantaneous or 1-round effects, with very few long-term boosts (with some nice exceptions, like an all-day see invisibility, and Legacy Weapon and Aegis).

So I'm just left wondering: What is the Occultist supposed to be good at?


Am I nuts or are there no resonant powers for the Transmuter's Vest?


Yeah. Those are my feelings on the Occultist as well, Ninja.

They have good proficiencies and 3/4ths BAB, but few abilities to support that (their only buffing spells for physical offense are enlarge person and haste).

They have fantastic boosts to necromancy capacity, but no way to control or command undead (if someone jacks a zombie they raised it's gone and they can't get it back, and they have no way to take command over undead they encounter).

They have abilities that suggest they should be good at certain things, but no follow through to make them actually stay effective long term.


As someone pointed out in another thread: The occultist doesn't have any* spells on her spell list that work with the summoning focus resonant power.

*Or at least "many". I haven't checked thoroughly, but at the least it's missing the usual suspects for 1 round/level summons, such as summon monster I and summon nature's ally.


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I like the occultist but I wonder if the designers might expand the implement list to include "holy items" which allow this class to be a true "theurge" who can use things such as turn undead and the like. A holy relic user could make a good archetype.

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blahpers wrote:

As someone pointed out in another thread: The occultist doesn't have any* spells on her spell list that work with the summoning focus resonant power.

*Or at least "many". I haven't checked thoroughly, but at the least it's missing the usual suspects for 1 round/level summons, such as summon monster I and summon nature's ally.

So far, it looks like the best use for the Occultist is to hand out his implements to the rest of the party at the start of the day, then stay at camp to craft while they go out and do the adventuring.

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