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One thing that would solve the energy immunity issue is if a lot of the Aether powers became baseline. If every kineticist picked one element and also got the telekinetic throw ability, they would always have something to do. Maybe a pyrokineticist who uses telekinetic throw can also set the object on fire?
I would also argue for having a second element available at 4, a third available at 12, and a fourth available at 18. Let these guys become master of all the elements if they want, or let them master their own and still have a couple other things they can do.
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Kinetic Blade/Fist/Whip - this is cool, but as a Sp ability and their 1 round duration, you are going to be needing to make lots of casting defensively checks. Maybe either have it turn the blast into Su (or otherwise circumvent a need for checks) or make it a 1 min/1 rnd per level/1 min per level style length.
Going to agree with others that say more skill points here. Additional options for the missing element blasts so they all have 3.
Some way of boosting attack with blasts/non-touch blast either through abilities or magic items or feats. For the elemental blasts maybe some talent that allows you to blow past it, possibly at the cost of burn to do so. Sounds like a substance form to me.
It's the same sort of deal as the Morningstar (1d8, both bludgeoning and piercing). They don't have to explicitly state in the Morningstar's description that it deals only 1d8 damage, but the damage bypasses both DR/piercing and DR/slashing; thus, they shouldn't have to do that here.Sandstorm: "If you hit, the target suffers an amount of piercing and slashing damage equal to 2d6+2 + your Constitution modifier. This damage increases by 2d6+2 for every 2 kineticist levels you possess beyond 1st."
The way I read this, it does 2d6+2 (plus 2d6+2 per 2 beyond first) of EACH piercing and slashing, for a total of double every other composite blast in damage. Obviously this is intended to be either an 'or', or to be one damage source that bypasses both P and S DR types, but the wording doesn't clearly say that to me.
Anchovies is correct. The way it's worded now means "2d6+2 damage that is both slashing and piercing type".
To be worded to get the results you think it will, it would have to be worded as "2d6+2 slashing and/plus 2d6+2 piercing". That's how similar spells and effects are already worded.
Well in the case of fire since you really can't make a physical attack that does slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning then maybe a blast of ash/cinders that cause blindness, choking, etc. or maybe a light based attack that blinds or dazzles but in ether case doesn't do damage.
Also an option that can make your blast do non-lethal damage would be awesome.
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My two main gripes are the skill points (I'm sure they've already been covered), and the fact that Aether is basically limited to tossing things for at least a few levels.
I think an option that's a simple "telekinetic thrust" where you just slap somebody with pure force is a thematic option and more what many people is probably looking for in a telekinetic master.
On a related note, IMO every element, not just Water and Air should get two options for their blast. It might be a bit harder for some, but fixes a bit of the lopsided-ness with two of the options having sub-options and others not.
Likewise it seems like it might be more interesting to tweak the Air and Water ones as well to something more than simply a different damage type, slightly more/less and a touch attack vs regular attack.
Like for fire I'd suggest something akin to simply raising the temperature of the target. Less damage, but causes them to burst into flames. Perhaps allows you to target objects as well, much like Heat Metal.
In essence, trade the majority of your damage dealing capability for an at-will debuff instead (kind of like a Hex). Cold could slow a target, Earth entangle/Grapple or some such, that sort of thing.
Though that hits the problem of people being disappointed because Cold is less of a damage dealer than Water when that's what they wanted. Hrm.
Eh, just spitballing, anyway.
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Maybe I'm just not looking closely enough at the class but for the amount of utility the fire lacks, it really doesn't have all THAT much offense as it is claimed to.
Sure, blue fire is a touch attack, while all other composite blasts are not. But until 16th level it still has to contend with SR, it will still have to contend with the most common type of energy resistance and assuming you're not running up against something with crazy DR your actual hits really don't do all that much more damage than any other composite blast...
In the meantime, you lose out on a great deal of the utility that say water brings (I feel water will be by far the most commonly chosen element) for some super awesome gains at level 16+? When a wizard is about 2 steps away from stopping time, gating in devils and jumping on the wish train?
A part of me honestly expected fire to use d8's for its damage dice, and was surprised when it didn't. I feel that giving it a "physical" damage side is a poor solution and very unflavourful though. I also think giving earth acid damage would be equally distasteful.
I really feel like fire needs a few more talents to drive home the FIRESTORM! aspect of the element (which maybe the expanded book will do) and possibly a way to produce fire so hot it partially penetrates energy resistance.
Alternatively, give Fire the ability to exhaust/fatigue/drain people due to heatstroke and the like, maybe sicken due to burns/pain?
Like a lot of other people have said as well, the class is in desperate need of a little more to do outside of combat, at least from my PoV. It has a lot of fun tricks in combat but in between it does look quite lacking. If the fighter has taught us anything it's that it's all well and good to throw damage at faces, but maybe some skills, a few more thematic utility abilities or some such may go a ways to filling out this void.
To steal a fun concept from, as everyone has compared it to, Avatar: The Last Airbender, giving a tremorsensing geokineticist a sense motive bonus would be fun and explainable. Likewise, giving aerokinesis the ability to manipulate sounds, perhaps enhancing stealth? A milder silence effect?
Oh and of course, I really hope that hydrokinesis will have some way of "bloodbending". :)
Overall, I gosh darn LOVE! this class, it more so than any other really fills a niche that I think needed to be filled. I just think it feels very barebones at the moment. But from reading the forums, I see a lot of the classes do, possibly the playtest showing through.
Hopefully I can convince my GM to let me change my witch in Kingmaker to a kineticist, and I'll be able to get some actual playtesting done. Looking forward to perfecting this wonderful little gem with you all!
That would admittedly be very cool.
@ Luthorne, point taken. Although I think that adding an unknown variable to the class could support this idea more effectively.
What I was proposing is that the description of the Kineticist is non associated. And the Kineticist's description should match its class abilities.
Is the burn class ability unique?
Pathfinder Unchained is going to introduce a new game mechanic called Martial Fatigue. This will allow all martial characters to exert themselves in a very similar fashion to the Kineticist's burn class ability.
The developers should inform us of their long term goals of 'exertion' mechanics. So the playtesters can accurately assess the Burn class ability.
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It is possible that the design intent behind this class is just not what I want it to be. When I see something like the Throw Foe ability, I want to be able to do that without having to worry about missing. I want to be throwing mooks around all day, and I want to be able to hit reliably. I'm also hoping that more "throw things around" options might show up. A kineticist that likes to be in melee might want to pull someone closer, and I'm certainly hoping for a way to launch allies at your foes.
Other thematic powers: For hydrokineticists, I want to be able to do this. I know Ice Path gives an air walk ability, but that's at normal speed. These guys should be surfing! For terrageokineticists to get to airborn foes, maybe they could create platforms by causing columns of earth to shoot up from the ground? They could even put one under an enemy to launch them, or one under an ally to get them up to a flying foe.
About having 2 blasts per Element.
I think that's a great idea! If someone goes Mono-element they should have access to two basic blasts. One for Physical Damage vs AC and one for elemental damage bs touch AC.
For Fire Focus the VS AC blast can be a small explosion that deals bludgeoning damage.
Aether can get a "force punch" or crush, or something similar.
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...So I was the only one disappointed about not being able to be a light or dark kineticist? :(
CERTAINLY NOT! I'm also hoping for a void kineticist (MINI BLACK HOLE LAUNCHER!).
As a side note, I love void & shadow as "pseudo-elements". I'm expecting there will be more elements eventually (either as archetypes, or in future splatbooks and such). The key here would be proposing interesting elements that are original and dont interesect with other elements. So here are some ideas:
light/dark: (Positive/negative energy) (The kineticist could be treated as a barely controled portal to the positive/negative energy planes)
void: could be integrated as a sub-element of aether, but could be unique if focused on the "creating emptiness" effects.
Shadow: might end up being with dark, but could be on it's own concentrating on weird shadow conjurations (could you imagine a wayang shadow kineticist?)
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About having 2 blasts per Element.
I think that's a great idea! If someone goes Mono-element they should have access to two basic blasts. One for Physical Damage vs AC and one for elemental damage bs touch AC.
For Fire Focus the VS AC blast can be a small explosion that deals bludgeoning damage.
Aether can get a "force punch" or crush, or something similar.
I'm a fan of the crush idea. People have a lot of wobbly parts inside, and it only takes a little tug to pull something where it probably shouldn't be.
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Likely not. I will say it's a little disappointing that the Pressurized option maxes out at five feet. Compare it with hydraulic push, which can theoretically launch someone much further.
Fire could indeed have a bludgeoning physical damage type wild blast, representing small concussive blows or explosions created.
No Jiggy and Williamoak, you are not alone. Void powers ahoy!
I'd also like a bit more support for kineticists who like to mix things up in melee, as well as more shaping talents (for example line effects). Perhaps also a way to combine more shaping or infusions at the same time (at the cost of burn)?
This class also feels like it should be able to go nova when things go dire, momentarily delivering a bigger nuke than even meteor swarm (at high levels) and then going into coma :p Sadly now I find a sorcerer or wizard is better at blasting (even if their damage dealing is not at will) AND have access to a way better toolbox of other spells. Maybe this can somehow be solved by screwing back the at will damage progression of the blasts and add some kind of resource system that will allow to blast at least on par with dedicated arcane casters for a few rounds?
Likely not. I will say it's a little disappointing that the Pressurized option maxes out at five feet. Compare it with hydraulic push, which can theoretically launch someone much further.
I think comparing kineticist abilities to similar spells is going to be important for ensuring that it isn't just a weaker blockbuster wizard. I'd love to see more options that replicate spells in flavorful ways; I could totally see hydrokineticists getting bloodbending at 10th level to mimic Dominate Person.
Mostly the power of the class seems to lack progression similar to others. While a 17th level wizard can send foes to oblivion with a disintegration, Power words, meteor shower, wail of the banshee, the kineticist is stuck wit his blast. Also, there are several theme related powers that could be added to the class.
Maybe the aether can be made into a more spiritual element. This could give access to some divinations, interfering with other kineticists, and even achieving astral projection at high level.
Mostly, I think the class need a reserve of power that does not damage the user. The burn mechanic is great, but as a secondary source. If you could use a regular pool, and only when it's empty star to burn health, it would be great. I suggest considering high level spell-likes costing pool points/burn.
As for flexibility and theme, the class could have something similar to Knacks from other classes, gained freely:
Aether:
Mage hand, Open/close, prestidigitation, detect magic
Fire:
Spark, light, dancing lights, ignite
Water:
Create water, freezing ray, freeze/melt
Air:
Breeze, ghost sound, feather fall, message
Earth:
??? - Soiling/cleaning dirt, opening/closing small holes...
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Salutations all!
I’m going to hop on a few bandwagons here:
-Geo is absolutely the right term for earth kineticists. Not only is it following the same stream from Greek to Pathfinder. I think it just sounds more awesome.
-2+INT is painful for skills. It wouldn't stop me from playing the character (Which I’ll be doing soon) but it’d feel super restrictive.
-Knowledge (Planes) seems like it ought to be a class skill for these folks. They are all about one particular set of planes. If not a Class skill, perhaps a bonus on K:P checks involving the Inner Planes and their denizens? That way they aren't experts on Demons and Angels, but they've got this Elemental thing down.
-Elemental Resistances… See proposed idea below.
What bout a class feature or a feat that bonds you to your element if you choose to specialize?
You want to play a Fire caster? Awesome. You can burn through Resistance at level 7 when you choose fire again. You can also harm creatures that are immune to fire. Not fully, mind you, but they can only ignore a max of half your damage. The price (other than a feat slot)? You gain vulnerability to Cold.
Kinetic Path Mastery
Prerequisites: Expanded Element n your original Kineticist Element
Benefit: Your Kinetic Blast ignores Resistance and to the element you have specialized in. Furthermore, your Kinetic Blast ignores Immunity up to half the damage rolled.
You gain Vulnerability to your Elements opposite (Cold for Fire, Acid for Lightning, etc.
I don’t see fire not having a physical side as a problem, but I would love to see them compensated for that lack in flexibility. Perhaps the fire damage dice could be d8s? I plan on breaking this class out for PFS, so we’ll see how if feels in that arena.
A few posters have commented that the class may get boring as you play and continue to resort to the same tactics over and over. I’ll say that I've played 8 levels of a Pyromancer (from a 3PP source) and enjoyed the heck out of him this whole time.
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Just a couple observations/thoughts.
To me the fact that at the end of the day there are only two kinds of simple blasts: 1d6+1+con normal ranged attack / or the 1d6+ 1/2con ranged touch. It seems overly complex that only water has access to both types of simple blasts, and everyone else has one or the other. It really feels that they should be just defined by 2 universal rule simple blasts that each element can choice one or the other.
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Also it seems to me there is a distinct lack of AoE damage that feels like it should be intuitive of elemental damage. The explosion infusion is very high level for what it does, even if it adds to your simple blast.
I think a universal Expanded Wild Talent that scales up burn cost based on the area of effect used. Perhaps something like:
Kinetic Barrage
Element Universal; type sp; Burn Variable; see text
Prerereq kineticist level 4
Save Reflex half
For 1 burn you spread your kinetic blast into a 15 foot cone, or a 5 foot radius outburst of elemental energies at short range.
Every 2 levels above 4 you can add 5 feet to the cone or radius for 1 additional burn for each extra 5 feet added.
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Since this is with very few exceptions a single target damage class, we should be comparing its damage to archer fighters, rangers, slayers, etc.
I've already stated (ad nauseam most people will probably think) that this class suffers from a poor attack roll compared with others. Upping Feel the Burn to give its bonus per point of burn (and possibly slowing the progression of the ability to balance) would give a kineticist the option to go all out in order to make those hits.
The other issue that we should look at is how one big hit is just not going to cut it at higher levels. Quicken comes too late as far as I can tell, as up to level 13 you are still only getting off one big hit per round. The easy solution I can see is to make the blast an attack that can be used multiple times with haste or as BAB scales, and then weaken the damage of each blast.
Lastly, damage resistance is a big issue, and some people have commented that a lot of the blasts seem very much the same with the exception of a different element or type of damage. What if each type of kineticist had the option of using a blast with either their choice of element or with one damage type (B/P/S)? That would cut down on the words needed to spell out each ability, and the player could describe how his fiery blast is piercing or how his earth blast activates chemicals in the material that burn his foe for acid damage. If they received the ability to use both from level 1, then a pyrokineticist would probably favour doing fire damage, but could still bludgeon or slash a fire elemental.
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Greater self telekinesis (Telekinetic flight) should act like the fly spell while the standard version should act like levitate.
I would gladly lessen the damage dice of the Aether element if you could use your telekinesis like the spell from the get go. Such as moving objects and creature weighing no more then the weight limit of the spell, combat maneuvers, hurling a number of small objects based on level, etc. Also you could get a wild talent that increases the weight limit as well.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I noticed that none of the kineticist wild talents, defenses or blasts have descriptors. They probably should be added to make it clear how other affects interact with them, in particular the ones which don't do energy damage, which at least have that form of damage explicitly stated. But they should all have [fire], [air], [force], [earth], etc as appropriate.
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I'm not sure if the playtest has the final set of wild talents, but the telekineticist seems to be missing some classic powers I'd want a telekinesis master to have:
1) a power that lets them telekinetically hamper someone - countering their movements and attacks with an opposite push of telekinesis - and applying a negative modifier to attack rolls, physical skill checks, speed, etc.
2) a puppetmaster/marionette power that lets the kineticist control someone's body in a jerky stilted manner
I'm not sure if the playtest has the final set of wild talents, but the telekineticist seems to be missing some classic powers I'd want a telekinesis master to have:
1) a power that lets them telekinetically hamper someone - countering their movements and attacks with an opposite push of telekinesis - and applying a negative modifier to attack rolls, physical skill checks, speed, etc.
That could be solved by expanding entangling infusion to add telekinesis as associated blast.
2) a puppetmaster/marionette power that lets the kineticist control someone's body in a jerky stilted manner
While that power appears from time to time in various media, it's hardly classic TK power.
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I agree with others that all kineticist types should have two simple blasts available for them at the start.
One idea I had for a pyrokinetic is, instead of only blasting an opponent with fire, they can also have a simple blast option that allows them to pull all of the heat from a small area, allowing them to deal cold damage to a target. That would give them a flavorful option besides fire blast, and also help deal with concerns over enemies immune to fire damage.
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...That is an amazing idea.
2) a puppetmaster/marionette power that lets the kineticist control someone's body in a jerky stilted mannerWhile that power appears from time to time in various media, it's hardly classic TK power.
And given the Avatar-inspired nature of the class it is likely more suited to the hydrokineticist. Bloodbending is cool, yo.
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Hm... been thinking about this.
What if BaB was upped to full, then this was added?
A THOUSAND CUTS
Element: Universal; Type: Substance and Form Infusion; Level: 4; Burn: 1
Prerequisite: Kineticist level 6th
Associated Blasts: Air, Electric, Earth, Fire, Cold, Water
Treat this Blast as a ranged weapon, for purposes of feats and spells. You may activate a Blast with this infusion as an attack action. For purposes of this Blast, treat your effective Kineticist level as your Kineticist level - 4.
I don't think giving the class itself full BAB is a great idea. The touch attack blasts do not need it. The other blasts would certainly appreciate the boost though, so adding a "treat your Kineticist level as your base attack bonus" to those blasts would do the trick.
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Also it seems to me there is a distinct lack of AoE damage that feels like it should be intuitive of elemental damage. The explosion infusion is very high level for what it does, even if it adds to your simple blast.
I agree. I love this class so far, but it really needs more AOE at lower levels. Especially for the fire element: it is kind of weird that they only get single target attacks that don't affect most swarms until level 16.
Personally, I would also recommend that a burn option be added that lets the character bypass elemental resistance and immunity. Maybe 1 burn per 10 points of resistance ignored, and 4 points of burn for bypassing immunity on a single attack. It would be an expensive last ditch option for players at least.
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And given the Avatar-inspired nature of the class it is likely more suited to the hydrokineticist. Bloodbending is cool, yo.2) a puppetmaster/marionette power that lets the kineticist control someone's body in a jerky stilted mannerWhile that power appears from time to time in various media, it's hardly classic TK power.
I personally could care less about all of the anime influence on the class, if I ever use it, it will be for a TK superhero/villain type, such as Sylar from Heroes (or many others). So for me it's much more a TK type ability.
I don't think giving the class itself full BAB is a great idea. The touch attack blasts do not need it.Ehh, I think the lower damage, the SR, and the energy resistance balances the touch attacks.
Not only that, but this is a non-casting martial class.
I've been thinking about this all night, but I think I have a solution to the burn issue. It's a surprisingly simple fix, that I think will allow what was intended to be a bit more practical.
So we keep the whole 1 burn = level damage thing. Instead of all that non-lethal damage being irrecoverable until a good night's rest, we have burn also track how much of that damage is irrecoverable. That allows us to recover a bit of burn damage while still allowing for a bit of drawback.
If that makes things too easy, then we have that burn metric scale a little bit. Say at 6th level, the amount of non-lethal damage you keep is equal to 2 times your Burn count. Then perhaps make it be triple the burn count at 14th.
At low level, burn can still be highly detrimental if overused. This metric allows for a longer day of burn if needed at higher levels. Otherwise we risk the 15 minute day of old.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I personally could care less about all of the anime influence on the class, if I ever use it, it will be for a TK superhero/villain type, such as Sylar from Heroes (or many others). So for me it's much more a TK type ability.
Three things:
1) If you "could care less", that means you do care some. You probably meant you couldn't care less.2) Avatar is an American show, created by a couple of dudes named Michael and Brian. No relation to anime whatsoever.
3) Yes, outside of deliberate Avatar references (which would seem inappropriate in an unaffiliated product), puppet-stuff seems to more naturally fit into TK.
It's a really minor point, but I kinda want Explosion to be usable with Plasma Blasts. It's certainly thematically appropriate and still related to fire.
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I know quite a few people have mentioned this is Avatar inspired but am I the only one who instantly thought of Full Metal Alchemist in reading this class?
The pyrokineticist may as well be called Roy Mustang - Flame Alchemist for me :D
I think the class is somewhere in limbo at the moment. I think we all agree we love the concept but it seems to lack the raw damage output of a fighter or archer or any of the utility of, say, an actual alchemist who has a similar chassis.
Would 4 levels of psychic spell casting be too much?