General Discussion: Kineticist

[Rynjin]

Ghosts are affected by force effects, so throwing one with force isn't exactly far-fetched.

[Lemmy]

Rynjin wrote:

Ghosts are affected by force effects, so throwing one with force isn't exactly far-fetched.

But would they take any damage? Unless there is a wall made of +1 Ghost Touch weapons somewhere nearby, wouldn't ghosts just pass through objects without suffering any impact?

[graystone]

Lemmy wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Ghosts are affected by force effects, so throwing one with force isn't exactly far-fetched.

But would they take any damage? Unless there is a wall made of +1 Ghost Touch weapons somewhere nearby, wouldn't ghosts just pass through objects without suffering any impact?

Does the person you tossed them at wearing mage armor or ghost-touch armor?

[Rynjin]

Lemmy wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Ghosts are affected by force effects, so throwing one with force isn't exactly far-fetched.

But would they take any damage? Unless there is a wall made of +1 Ghost Touch weapons somewhere nearby, wouldn't ghosts just pass through objects without suffering any impact?

Well, I can see two ways this could go:

1.) Yes, they would, but it still works to make one get out the way for a round.

2.) You're coating them in a force "bubble" and they take damage when you slam them into things, much like if you put something fragile in an indestructible sphere and tossed it at something (the fragile thing shatters on impact with the inside of the sphere).

[Shiroi]

graystone wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Ghosts are affected by force effects, so throwing one with force isn't exactly far-fetched.

But would they take any damage? Unless there is a wall made of +1 Ghost Touch weapons somewhere nearby, wouldn't ghosts just pass through objects without suffering any impact?

Does the person you tossed them at wearing mage armor or ghost-touch armor?

I mean, RAW, the powers are related to the Ethereal Plane, so I see no reason they wouldn't extend there. That means that Tele isn't the actual name of the element. In all reality, the elements are Pyro, Hydro, Geo, Aero, and Ecto. Welcome to the first class with permanent Ghost Touch as a class feature.

And yeah, I'd rule that they only take damage (and the target as well) if they could at least in theory interact with each other in some way. Even a weapon of ghost touch could theoretically be hit and knocked into someone's face, but if nothing is ghost touch or force on the person the ghost goes straight through. And no falling damage, because ghosts and walls. But does regular TK Blast hit a ghost? We've theorized over the item not using it's own properties because of a thin layer of TK Force, so why shouldn't the normal attack hit an ethereal being as normal? This could be interesting in many ways. Since apparently just using your attack on a person (without Foe Throw, and without throwing an object) doesn't actually do damage or count as an attack... Can you be an awesome Exorcist?
"Can you save her?"
"Oh yeah, this part's easy, I just pick the ghost up with my mind and chuck it in the bag of holding."

[Rynjin]

They count as Magic for the purpose of Damage Reduction, which as per the most recent FAQ, means they can hit Incorporeal for at least half damage for sure.

[Rerednaw]

PhoenixLife wrote:

Did some more looking into the class and was drooling over Ride the Blast. I can’t help but feel like it might be a little broken. Not sure if this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, but at 40 pages and counting I can’t really read the whole thread. (Insert ‘Ain’t Nobody Got Time for That’ meme here.)

Now, Ride the Blast….

I could (at level 10) charge up to 480 feet in a straight line or snake a path of up to 120 feet without provoking any AoO from my movement and without being affected by hindered terrain. I’d then reach my target, where I’d get to ...

Ride the Blast is part of your attack action with a blast. You end up next to your target...and then next round yes you can act. But it is a nice gap closer. Especially with the right timing.

[doktorJung]

Quick question, just to check if I have it right - kinetic blade costs 1 burn, which could be cancelled via the gather energy ability if one has both hands free. However, a telekinetic must use a physical weapon along with kinetic blade, as opposed to creating a weapon like the other kineticists. It seems kinda tricky for a melee telekineticist to avoid burn at early levels without also having something like the quick draw feat - is this a correct interpretation?

[Zwordsman]

@ the incoporeal thing.
It should work just fine for hitting (assuming no special resistances)
It's a magic effect and counted as magic. What your throwing and what your throwing at doesn't matter currently. Since it's coated with TK Energy

[Emperor Point]

If the class is meant to damage itself to power its abilities why isn't it d10 or even d12 hit die?
Most of your cool abilities are just "can't use these until i can reduce the burn to 0" because you have nowhere near enough health to afford the huge danger burn provides and levelling up doesn't increase the amount of burn you can take at all. I honestly think Burn could be kept completely as is and remove the "per level" part so its literally 1 or 2 damage per burn and it could be balanced that way, making it into a reasonable risk to spend burn points on your abilities rather than burn feeling like a punishment for daring to step outside the bounds of your basic blast.
Another alternative is to let burn fade away in a one minute meditation or something, making it a per-battle risk rather than having to ruin yourself for the whole day.

Also undead cant be decent Kineticists because they can't take burn. I feel that's taking away some great opportunities for vampires and the like.

[johnnythexxxiv]

So haven't read through the entire thread yet (only at around post 700) but a very common reoccurring theme I'm seeing is that the kineticist doesn't have a competitive to hit at higher levels and that they have a hard time with DR. What if with Feel the Burn for every point of burn they have they receive a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage instead of the untyped bonus to attack and damage they currently have (capped at 1/3 level like it currently is of course)? It would make DR less of an issue (although taking 5 burn to bypass DR/alignment isn't a whole lot of fun). Make sure that it has specific wording so that if some new variant of the AoMF that works with blasts gets printed the two enhancement bonus explicitly stack.

On the topic of burn, 1/2 level (minimum 1) would probably be a better mechanic for the damage since it wouldn't make you more susceptible to knocking yourself out as you level up and would guarantee the ability to use burn the maximum number of times per day instead of that being an impossibility if you roll really poorly on health (rolling an average of under 3 per dice currently can cause you to knock yourself out essentially at will since you can accept a total of 3+Con mod points of burn a day).

For what it's worth, I'm also in the camp that kineticists could have some more out of combat utility. Outside of flight they currently have very little to do between initiative rolls. 4+int skills would help with that, along with a better selection of utility talents or even an extra class feature or two that helped out with skills.

Anyhoo, just my 2cp, when I actually finish reading through everything I'll probably have more to add.

[Adam B. 135]

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Someone made a comment earlier that essentially we've playtested all we could with the info we currently have.

Maybe at this point we need a new direction?

Maybe Marc can ask up to playtest some new Wild Talents?
Playtest some variables like: What if full BAB? What if Vital Strike? What if everything was a touch? What if iteratives? What if we had X item? What if we ignored SR? What if X?

I would love some guidelines to shape my playtesting. Pretty sure all the math behind this iteration of the class has been tapped out.

What if burn was instead half your level rounded down?

What if burn was its own point pool like the arcane pool system? Where you get Feel the Burn for spending it, but lose access to abilities due to a lack of burn.

What if there was a magic item that added an enhancement bonus to your blast at the same rate and gold cost as a magical weapon? *this also fixes DR/alignment and material issues*

[45ur4]

Rerednaw wrote:

PhoenixLife wrote:

Did some more looking into the class and was drooling over Ride the Blast. I can’t help but feel like it might be a little broken. Not sure if this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, but at 40 pages and counting I can’t really read the whole thread. (Insert ‘Ain’t Nobody Got Time for That’ meme here.)

Now, Ride the Blast….

I could (at level 10) charge up to 480 feet in a straight line or snake a path of up to 120 feet without provoking any AoO from my movement and without being affected by hindered terrain. I’d then reach my target, where I’d get to ...

Ride the Blast is part of your attack action with a blast. You end up next to your target...and then next round yes you can act. But it is a nice gap closer. Especially with the right timing.

The awesomEST part comes at Kineticist level 13th, when he can throw a quickened kinetic blast (3 burn), then Ride the Blast (0 burn) and finish with a Kinetic Blade (with form specialized infusion for no burn here) fullattacking the enemy and screaming [insert YOUR technique name here]...

Limited time per day but fun as hell!
Also RtB it's not a teleportation effect (it might be a transmutation [polymorph]?) so no dimensional anchor blocking the kineticist!

[mplindustries]

Mark Seifter wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

So, I know there's no phase 2 to this playtest, but I really like this class and will be playing one in an upcoming game. It's going to start in february and the expectation is that we'll be hitting the double digits around the time the book ultimately releases in August. Is there any way you, Mark, can give some hints as to how you're fixing the damage or maybe how that kinetic healer archetype works, since that's exactly the route I am most interested in?

If I ordered a kinetic healer archetype, then even I can't say exactly how it will turn out. However, I think that being able to choose paladin mercies as free extras when you use the wild talent seems pretty useful, don't you?

I think it sounds really awesome, as long as it gives up, say, a Wild Talent, or one or two infusion specializations, rather than multiple levels of Feel the Burn as I fear (because Mercies for the Paladin come on the same schedule as Feel the Burn).

[Dexion1619]

Has it been covered just how terrible the Ether Composite blast is? I just looked at it today and was stunned. I guess, maybe, you could use it with a Composite Blast at level 15 to get the extra damage... but It really should just add 1d6 untyped damage to any basic blast its combined with. 2 Burn for +1 damage per die?

[Dragon78]

The fact that the burn mechanic and everything else is based on con means we can't have constructs and undead as kineticist:( It also severally penalizes all the races with con penalties. Especially strange to me when you take into account races like Lashunta(female), Elves, Eoxians(when they were alive), Samsarans, etc. would be races that are psychic focused. Vercites might be as well but we haven't really seen there stats(not counting using Elf or Half-Elf stats option from PotS). Changlings and Gathlains would be good fits but they have con penalties as well. It would be cool to have a Sylph air focused kineticist but they also have a con penalty. I find it strange that Gnomes and Dwarves make the best Kineticist as per the current rules.

[mplindustries]

Dexion1619 wrote:

Has it been covered just how terrible the Ether Composite blast is? I just looked at it today and was stunned. I guess, maybe, you could use it with a Composite Blast at level 15 to get the extra damage... but It really should just add 1d6 untyped damage to any basic blast its combined with. 2 Burn for +1 damage per die?

The difference is that the 2d6 composite blasts are all regular attacks. The Aether composite can apply to a base touch attack and is one of the only ways to boost the damage of such an attack.

[Milo v3]

Dragon78 wrote:

The fact that the burn mechanic and everything else is based on con means we can't have constructs and undead as kineticist:(

Wait.... that means you couldn't ever have Bloodbending vampires... that's just depressing.

[Lukas Stariha]

Dragon78 wrote:

The fact that the burn mechanic and everything else is based on con means we can't have constructs and undead as kineticist:( It also severally penalizes all the races with con penalties. Especially strange to me when you take into account races like Lashunta(female), Elves, Eoxians(when they were alive), Samsarans, etc. would be races that are psychic focused. Vercites might be as well but we haven't really seen there stats(not counting using Elf or Half-Elf stats option from PotS). Changlings and Gathlains would be good fits but they have con penalties as well. It would be cool to have a Sylph air focused kineticist but they also have a con penalty. I find it strange that Gnomes and Dwarves make the best Kineticist as per the current rules.

Well outside of houseruling it to work on Cha instead (which would fix the large majority of cases unless you wanted a Kineticist enemy in PFS?), I could swear there was a dev post saying abilities that scale off Con are changed to Cha for Undead.

[Luthorne]

Dragon78 wrote:

The fact that the burn mechanic and everything else is based on con means we can't have constructs and undead as kineticist :( It also severally penalizes all the races with con penalties. Especially strange to me when you take into account races like Lashunta (female), Elves, Eoxians (when they were alive), Samsarans, etc. would be races that are psychic focused. Vercites might be as well but we haven't really seen there stats (not counting using Elf or Half-Elf stats option from PotS). Changelings and Gathlains would be good fits but they have con penalties as well. It would be cool to have a Sylph air focused kineticist but they also have a con penalty. I find it strange that Gnomes and Dwarves make the best Kineticist as per the current rules.

Remember that kineticists aren't the only psychic class, though, and is implied to be an uncommon form of psychic abilities, rarely passed on from parent to child, usually only awakened during a traumatic or violent experience. So it's not necessarily important for some races that are considered traditionally psychic; we have other classes for that that are based on either Intelligence or Charisma. Female lashunta would make good mediums, mesmerists, occultists, psychics, and spiritualists, elves would make good occultists and psychics, samasarans would make good occultists and psychics (and discipline of tranquility seems made for them), and so on and so forth. Surely it isn't a bad thing for just one psychic class to be more open to races who have an Intelligence or Charisma penalty?

[Kolokotroni]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

So far I honestly think there's a whole package left out of the playtest. This feels like literally half a class, the damage side only, so I've been suggesting things to put on the other side of the class, the back of the coin, the utility end, but trying not to complain about it not being there. Because I don't think we're supposed to see it yet. That's literally the only justification I have, is that it hasn't been designed and they want more time and ideas, or they want to keep it under wraps until it's closer to time. So I'm not too worried about the utility package. We'll see it when they're ready for us to see it.

These guys know what they're doing, they've done amazing things with this RP system, and I fully expect this class will be great. Both at balanced blasting, and at utility. Just hoping that it gets the right feel, that little niche of utility and attack interaction that makes it unique in the party.

It is certainly the case that we have only put some of the options in the playtest for each class, lest it increase the complexity of jumping into the playtest. Given the threads about that complexity being high, I think we made the right choice.

Now that being said, classes where almost all the options come from this book from scratch are going to seem to be missing more options than classes with lots of spells, which come from previous books and don't need to be printed in the playtest.

Its not just a matter of the number of options, its the over all potential of the class. Even if we had twice as many wild talents, there are still a relatively small amount we can actually take when compared to most non-full martially focused characters. Baring the rogue and monk (two often derided classes) every class that isnt the big guy with the sharp thing (fighter/barbarian/paladin/cavalier/ranger etc) puts alot more options of things to do in the space of their levels.

Ofcourse most of this is wrapped up in skills and spells (especially spells). But it is representative of a problem for a class that doesnt have options as versatile as spells, and obviously isnt meant to be a skillfull character, or the front line fighter type. Wild talents that do ONE thing, are not sufficient in a world where a spell slot can do almost anything. The difference in investment when a kinetisist chooses the presurized infusion and a wizard learns hydrolic push is way too high. Particularly at low levels, you cant get the kind of versatility that other classes get. The applications are far more limited, and the individual choices are a far larger portion of available class resources.

[Shiroi]

I feel like honestly there should be an alternate racial trait available to all races, letting you determine your two high scores but giving the DM control of your low score. This lets any race fill any class role, which is something I feel should be acceptable. /soap box

Okay. How's this for an idea. If we compile a list of changes and vote in each one, we then produce a few neutral builds and examine how each change would affect that character. One melee kineticist, one ranged, one utility. Test changes vs all three and show results. Then decide which ones we like, and mark failures off the list. Then start building with two changes each, and seeing that balance. It's a lot of work, but short of that I think we've asked all the actual questions we're gonna get out of the current build. Personally I'm a huge fan of revision based playtesting, I don't feel it's possible to get a fully balanced class without it, so if the devs don't want to do it that way I feel that we should take initiative. (Or improved initiative) This will offer them feedback on the potential changes they could make from here, not just on where they are now.

[Dragon78]

That is why the kineticist should get to choose wich stat for there abilities to be based on. Almost every playable race gets a bonus to at least one mental stat so if not any stat at least a choice between the 3 mental based ones, Int, Wis, or Cha. If they make it Int based it helps with the low skill points, if they make it Wis based it helps with will saves/some skills, if they make it Cha based it helps with social skills. But if they give you choice it opens up a lot more builds.

Spiritualist are wisdom based casters so Lashunta(female +0, Male -2) would not be good choices for them. Though females would make good psychics(cha based) and Mesmerist.

[Heladriell]

Shiroi wrote:

I feel like honestly there should be an alternate racial trait available to all races, letting you determine your two high scores but giving the DM control of your low score. This lets any race fill any class role, which is something I feel should be acceptable. /soap box

Okay. How's this for an idea. If we compile a list of changes and vote in each one, we then produce a few neutral builds and examine how each change would affect that character. One melee kineticist, one ranged, one utility. Test changes vs all three and show results. Then decide which ones we like, and mark failures off the list. Then start building with two changes each, and seeing that balance. It's a lot of work, but short of that I think we've asked all the actual questions we're gonna get out of the current build. Personally I'm a huge fan of revision based playtesting, I don't feel it's possible to get a fully balanced class without it, so if the devs don't want to do it that way I feel that we should take initiative. (Or improved initiative) This will offer them feedback on the potential changes they could make from here, not just on where they are now.

This is a good idea. They surveys are probably going to be something generic, not actual change propositions. If we can get those impressions on numbers, we may give Mark better arguments to improve the class.

[Dragon78]

So if that is true about using cha instead of con would help undead but constructs would still be shafted.

[Shiroi]

I can see surveys for general "how happy are you with x in the class" questions. I feel like that's almost countable just from this thread already, but cleaner numbers would be useful.
I actually did mean specific changes. Gather 2-3 different ways to solve a specific class problem, and decide which ones to test first. Build working characters under the new assumed rules, and determine efficiency based on actual builds, with an increasing number of changes, until a final design is put forward that many people can agree would be balanced.
Basically, I'm voting we hijack the Devs job title and they can decide how well we did after we're done, and what they want to do past that. We've got a million and one ideas here, seeing them in action and producing a viable class would give us far more oomph to our arguments.

That being said, with a significant part of the problem being utility, I feel that straight up fights is not the only test needed for these new builds. I'd set up 3 classes considered balanced, and several scenarios. PvP, PvE(a horde of CR appropriate mooks), Nightmare(a creature designed specifically to destroy each class, how well do they handle immunities and dr and things that plan tactically against them, general combat roundness) social(produce and sell an object, deal with a disgruntled customer), roguish(break in, disable a trap, steal a treasure, get out quietly).
This would give us baseline functionality in various areas of play, vs several existing classes, with each change we make highlighted to display the increase/decrease in effectiveness.

[mplindustries]

So, just a heads up for those building Kineticists:

Deadly Aim is a bad idea! Just because you can apply deadly aim to your physical blasts does not mean it is a good idea to do so.

Early on (levels 3-5), it is actually a slight dpr upgrade, but kineticist damage scales too quickly for the 2:1 tradeoff to stay worthwhile. Unless you know for sure that you will be stopping the game early (e6, maybe) or that you can retrain it, I would skip deadly aim if I were you.

[blackbloodtroll]

Questions about the Telekinetic Blast:

1) If the object is made of a special material, does it count as such for the purposes of DR and Hardness?

2) Can I use Telekinetic Blast to attack an object?

[Luthorne]

Dragon78 wrote:

That is why the kineticist should get to choose which stat for their abilities to be based on. Almost every playable race gets a bonus to at least one mental stat so if not any stat at least a choice between the 3 mental based ones, Int, Wis, or Cha. If they make it Int based it helps with the low skill points, if they make it Wis based it helps with will saves/some skills, if they make it Cha based it helps with social skills. But if they give you choice it opens up a lot more builds.

Spiritualist are wisdom based casters so Lashunta(female +0, Male -2) would not be good choices for them. Though females would make good psychics(cha based) and Mesmerist.

I misremembered spiritualist, but since the female lashuntas get +cha/+int, they're good with four out of six of the psychic classes by default, and spiritualist still isn't a bad choice since they don't actively have a wisdom penalty, though it would be for the males. So they're still a reasonably good choice for two-thirds of all psychic classes, and I don't think it's a bad thing that they're not necessarily suited for all of them.

Personally, I don't think the kineticist should get to pick which ability score they use unless you're going to apply that to all casting classes. Their flavor is that they're letting raw elemental energy flow through their bodies and their bodies have to be powerful enough to take that energy or they damage themselves...and they can choose to allow that to happen for more power. Now, if you want to houserule it so that all casters can choose whatever ability score they want, that's one thing, but making kineticist the only one who ignores it is another.

As far as houserules go, though, I'd be more inclined to change the way races get ability score bonuses, myself. One thing I've pondered is having the regular +2/+2/-2 be the default, but allow the player to change one +2 or -2 to another ability score of the same type (mental or physical), and if you change a bonus to where a penalty is, you negate both. So, say, a dwarf could be +2 str/+2 wis/-2 cha, or +2 con/+2 int/-2 cha, or just +2 con by cancelling out the wisdom and charisma bonus and penalty. But regardless.

That said, I think an archetype that trades the ability score used would be fine, much like sage and empyreal sorcerers, but I think having ability score flexibility be a core part of the class would hurt the concept of the class as it is now. Perhaps if you changed burn into ability damage that targets the ability score being used, but it's still a weaker (albeit more flexible) concept, in my opinion.

[Starbuck_II]

Jeff Merola wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

AlanDG2 wrote:

As a note, if this character is as much like the Warlock as it seems, you are never going to have a huge number of magic abilities...less than one each level. There is only so much utility you ca do with that few abilities.

So far, I'll be surprised if we aren't completely the opposite. Warlocks I've heard (no personal 3.5 exp) were massively unbalanced in the battlefield.

You've heard wrong. Warlocks were sub-par both at damage and utility. Except for one rather specific combination that allowed them to get up to respectable damage levels (Hellfire Warlock with either Binder or Shape Soulmeld to offset the con damage).

No, they are not subpar utility. Damage lacks, but they had such cool abilities.

Controllable swarms (since they revert to natural instincts on next round and you can end it before that as a free action unlike Wiz/Sorc), at will shatter that has a secondary effect, Flight, etc, etc.

[Dragon78]

I am still against Con being there "casting stat". It would have made a lot more sense to be Int or maybe Cha. Considering almost every version I have seen of Kineticist in movies, TV shows, and comics have been kids or weak/Thin guys with big heads/brains I can't see any of them having better 12-14 Con, if that. While I don't mind Burn being based on Con, I still think that attack rolls, DCs, and bonus damage should be based on Int or Cha.

[mplindustries]

Dragon78 wrote:

I am still against Con being there "casting stat". It would have made a lot more sense to be Int or maybe Cha. Considering almost every version I have seen of Kineticist in movies, TV shows, and comics have been kids or weak/Thin guys with big heads/brains I can't see any of them having better 12-14 Con, if that. While I don't mind Burn being based on Con, I still think that attack rolls, DCs, and bonus damage should be based on Int or Cha.

I would say Avatar disagrees here. Int and Cha make the least sense from the perspective of their elemental benders. Con works, maybe wis, but definitely not int or cha.

[Arachnofiend]

I think it's mainly the Telekineticists that you see being physically weak. People with powers tied to specific elements usually exhibit at least decent fortitude. TK's would make sense as an int-based archetype rather than a base element, really.

[Orfamay Quest]

Rynjin wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

After last night's session, I think I can say I like this class. A: Good concept, fills needed niche, and has interesting, novel, and understandable mechanics

The kineticist ended up doing all the heavy lifting in the game last night and made an extremely effective glass cannon. The focus on a single element makes it a tad overspecialized, but given how extremely effective it is in its element ("in its element," get it? Thanks, I'll be here all week; don't forget to tip your server) that's good for overall balance and design.

Considering you are almost literally the only person who thinks this so far, I'd be interested in more details about the game you ran the playtest in.

Standard PFS introductory module (level 1), five person party, with the kineticist playing what amounted to a gunslinger -- e.g., stand back, hit touch AC, hope that the BFS in the front manages to keep ppl away from him.

He was able to achieve effectively one-shot kills on all the popcorn and with the party throwing up appropriate roadblocks managed to get enough hits to kill the boss.

This is in stark contrast to the rest of the OA classes in the party that were notably useless.

[Shiroi]

We honestly don't see enough Con based classes in my opinion, so I don't feel like we can afford to sacrifice the possibility of one when it comes up. This is one of the few caster classes where Con makes sense, so if only for the fact that we may never see another one I'd leave it.
You might try basing a few build in abilities off Wid/Cha/Int. I think I posted a few pages back about adding one of them to hit, one to DMG, and one to AC. Then you have a choice between how you "equip" your character based on how you equip their mind, which is their weapon and armor in one.

[Damian1335]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

After last night's session, I think I can say I like this class. A: Good concept, fills needed niche, and has interesting, novel, and understandable mechanics

The kineticist ended up doing all the heavy lifting in the game last night and made an extremely effective glass cannon. The focus on a single element makes it a tad overspecialized, but given how extremely effective it is in its element ("in its element," get it? Thanks, I'll be here all week; don't forget to tip your server) that's good for overall balance and design.

Considering you are almost literally the only person who thinks this so far, I'd be interested in more details about the game you ran the playtest in.

Standard PFS introductory module (level 1), five person party, with the kineticist playing what amounted to a gunslinger -- e.g., stand back, hit touch AC, hope that the BFS in the front manages to keep ppl away from him.

He was able to achieve effectively one-shot kills on all the popcorn and with the party throwing up appropriate roadblocks managed to get enough hits to kill the boss.

This is in stark contrast to the rest of the OA classes in the party that were notably useless.

To be fair thats at level one. Where about any class can one shot anything else if they're meant to do damage. Also as far as I understand the main problems come past the early levels where they drop off incredibly hard. Mostly due to lack of damage, utility, hit die, bab, killing themselves to achieve the same damage as any other damage dealing class.

[mplindustries]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Standard PFS introductory module (level 1), five person party, with the kineticist playing what amounted to a gunslinger -- e.g., stand back, hit touch AC, hope that the BFS in the front manages to keep ppl away from him.

He was able to achieve effectively one-shot kills on all the popcorn and with the party throwing up appropriate roadblocks managed to get enough hits to kill the boss.

This is in stark contrast to the rest of the OA classes in the party that were notably useless.

Surely one of them could stand back with a bow of some kind and deal similar damage. Level 1 touch blasts only deal 1d6+2 or 3 (depending on whether or not you managed an 18 con. And touch AC is not especially lower than regular AC at level 1. Most weak enemies (kobolds, goblins, etc) get most of their ac from dex and size.

I just don't see it. And level 1 is not a great judge anyway--everyone not power attacking with a greatsword is crappy at 1.

[MatthewHudson]

I had a question about the posted errata in the opening thread concerning burn "Burn damage cannot be reduced or redirected."

Does this mean the last paragraph of the Burn (Ex) ability is completely stricken out, or does it mean there is no OTHER way to reduce Burn other than by this method?

"If she has both hands free, as a move action, a kineticist can visibly gather energy or elemental matter around her, allowing her to reduce the total burn cost of a wild talent used in the same round by 1 point (to a minimum of 0 points). If she takes any damage while gathering power and before the kinetic blast that releases it, she must make a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage dealt + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that deals her 1 point of burn."

[Dragon78]

I doubt firestarter had 14+ Con and the only type of bender that would be based on Con(maybe Str) would be earth but even then I doubt Toph had more then 14 Con. Since a Kineticist's ability to withstand a hit had to do with there kinetic abilities to resist, deflect, or nullify the attack not there HP/Con.

[mplindustries]

Dragon78 wrote:

I doubt firestarter had 14+ Con and the only type of bender that would be based on Con(maybe Str) would be earth but even then I doubt Toph had more then 14 Con. Since a Kineticist's ability to withstand a hit had to do with there kinetic abilities to resist, deflect, or nullify the attack not there HP/Con.

So, you think Toph was more intelligent or charismatic than she was tough? Really?

[Lemmy]

mplindustries wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

I doubt firestarter had 14+ Con and the only type of bender that would be based on Con(maybe Str) would be earth but even then I doubt Toph had more then 14 Con. Since a Kineticist's ability to withstand a hit had to do with there kinetic abilities to resist, deflect, or nullify the attack not there HP/Con.

So, you think Toph was more intelligent or charismatic than she was tough? Really?

I think she was at higher level than most other characters... But I'd say the elemental-bending from Avatar is based on Wisdom.

[blackbloodtroll]

Dragon78 wrote:

I doubt firestarter had 14+ Con and the only type of bender that would be based on Con(maybe Str) would be earth but even then I doubt Toph had more then 14 Con. Since a Kineticist's ability to withstand a hit had to do with there kinetic abilities to resist, deflect, or nullify the attack not there HP/Con.

What if I want to play a Kineticist, that is not a bender?

What if I really don't want it to resemble a bender at all?

[mplindustries]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

I doubt firestarter had 14+ Con and the only type of bender that would be based on Con(maybe Str) would be earth but even then I doubt Toph had more then 14 Con. Since a Kineticist's ability to withstand a hit had to do with there kinetic abilities to resist, deflect, or nullify the attack not there HP/Con.

What if I want to play a Kineticist, that is not a bender?

What if I really don't want it to resemble a bender at all?

Then find some other way to justify the Con? The smart/charismatic psychics are covered by other classes.

[Protoman]

I picture the kineticist as a Constitution-based class because of the way Feel the Burn is described, "a kineticist’s body surges with energy from her chosen element when she accepts burn, causing her to glow with a nimbus of fire, weep water from her pores, take on an earthen skin tone, or experience some other thematic effect." Sounds like the primal elemental energies are bursting through the kineticist's body and Constitution/Fortitude is the only thing keeping his body intact.

I also picture the class as more of a firestarter (or whatever element what have you) from a Call of Cthulhu-esque game. Where the powers aren't really understood like an Intelligence-based wizard would be, or as intuitive as a sorcerer's powers, but instead the kineticist is barely holding on to control from exploding via inner fortitude, where burning through too much power at once would trigger negative consequences. Like Liz Sherman in Hellboy/BPRD or as depicted in the Innsmouth Garden Society story arc in the D20 Monkey webcomic.

[Mad Alchemist]

mplindustries wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Hmm, what about Empowering with a move action (EDIT: Looks like you did). Is Deadly Aim improving or decreasing your damage load? With 8 BAB, I suppose you can have Improved Critical too, at the least. Those crits hurt bad!

EDIT: Also, it's fair to say that the archer had a +4 weapon, and the blaster thus would have 32,000 more gold lying around. That's not chump change at level 11 (in fact, it's almost half of all WBL). That much enhancement is actually what brought me to think there might be a missing FtB.

Yeah, there's a lot of money on the Kinetcist, but none of it helps their blasts. That's why I mentioned probably needing Blast-specific items. And I didn't do Improved Critical for the same reason I didn't do Weapon Focus--what is the name of the weapon I'm using? Still, even if that eeks out another few DPR (2.09625 to be exact), it's only just barely beating the bow. Shouldn't the blast be more than a fraction better?

Again, I don't want to be hostile here--I want the class to be great. I love what you've done with it. I just think the specific numbers need tweaking.

Not using Deadly Aim and including Weapon Focus and Improved Crit, the blaster has +20 to hit and deals 6d6+16 damage (empowered to 55.5 average). That's a 8% crit rate, and 72% regular hit for 48.84 DPR. So, better. By 2.82. Am I crazy for expecting/wanting it to be much better than that?

Edit: And the Gun still beats it! (since the touch attacks are all basically auto-hits because of the awkward way touch AC doesn't really scale) The issue there is that guns can break the rule about Deadly Aim applying (allowing them to trade excess accuracy for damage), while the touch blasts have no recourse for the extra to hit.

Edit 2: 32k out of 82k is 39%. I could be wrong, but I view a +4 weapon as a huge priority for any kind of striker, because of the DR issues--well worth the price tag. Plus, weapons cost twice as much as armor, so it make sense to put more of your budget towards weapons....

Rather than a +4 weapon how much better is archery with a +3 Conductive bow? A flying Archery based Aerokinetic may be the only one competing with a kinetic whip melee build.

[Cheapy]

I find it curious that people here lament the fact that caster or caster types so far outpace martials, and then they also lament that this class isn't better at ranged attacking than martials.

It's almost as quixotic as people complaining that martials can shut down psychic casters with a Demoralize action.

Not to say there are no problems with this class. There are problems with any class that anyone designs. Designers are only human. But it's still curious.

[Blackwaltzomega]

This has been my favorite idea in the Occult Adventures book by far, but I do think it could use a bit of a boost...

-A lot of people have said this already, but the class could really use 4+Int skill points to help it pop a little more. I feel like 2+int is a model the game has outgrown for characters that aren't intelligence based. I assume once you expand your element you get four additional class skills rather than the two additional you got from your starting element, which is nice if you can further expand your class skills with traits. I feel the class will get pigeonholed if it's stuck with poor skill progressions and no incentive to boost intelligence but to get more skill points. That tends to work against classes in point-buy systems, particularly ones that need to look to their will saves when it's time to determine mental scores.

-I feel like there's a lot of must-have feats for a Kineticist right out the gate. You want Precise Shot as soon as possible, and it seems like Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast) is really important to keep those non-touch blasts hitting. That's going to really push people towards being human, as that bonus feat is the only way to get Precise Shot at first level and Skilled addresses the class's current lack of points. I'm not sure what the best solution is, but since the normal range of a kinetic blast is always a point-blank shot, maybe they get that as a bonus feat at 1st level? Just so it's easier for non-humans to pick up the ranged feats they need without having to wait too long in low-level games.

-I feel like the Kinetic Blast is a really cool idea, but it needs some OOMPH to make the kineticist acknowledge it as their best attack rather than just the one that never runs out of ammo. I kinda feel like a solid blast and a touch blast for every element is a good start so that you can make normal attacks and ranged touch attacks even if you're using fire or something. I feel like a Kineticist Level as BAB for Blasts might help, although there's been talk of upping the damage instead of the accuracy. The big issue I've got right now is that there's no way to enhance your blasts the way you can enhance a bow or anything. Some kind of headband or gloves you can use to get weapon enhancements would be a big help to this class, although I think it should be cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists because it's much more specialized and it's way harder to cheese with Kinetic Blasts than it is with Natural Attacks. Having something to enhance would really help the blasts out, but even without enhancement bonuses and weapon abilities, I do feel the blasts need to either be more accurate than other attacks the Kineticist does, or hit harder. Right now, it kinda feels like a blast is a longer ranged alchemist bomb with no splash and far less capacity to volley in exchange for not running out. Beefing up how hard it hits would make the blasts feel a lot more powerful if there's concerns with the accuracy.

-Wild Talents. I love these things, but I do feel the class needs more of them. The absolute must in my book is a generalized form infusion for area of effect blasts, but I'd also love some more of those "Other" utility Wild Talents. Being able to do things like fly and walk on water are abilities that help this class stand out, and having all kinds of ways to use the elements to interact with your environment makes the class a lot more fun than an infiniblaster who can't do anything but blast. Honestly, I think Extra Wild Talent doesn't break anything too badly if it just lets you take Wild Talents you qualify for, but that would need some further investigation.

But yeah, that's my two coppers so far. A more skillful final Kineticist would be greatly appreciated, and I feel like right now the blasts need some love to make them stand out as a great attacking option on a 3/4ths chassis. More stopping power, some area of effect abilities, something we can enhance, and some more fun utility powers are things I think the class needs right now.

...That and an archetype that has more martial arts themed abilities so I can run an Avatar campaign. But that's secondary.

[Luthorne]

In Firestarter, didn't Charlie's parents both experience negative physical side effects when using their psychic powers? As if their bodies weren't strong enough to take them?

I think most of the more 'caster-ish' psychics, ie, the weak-looking, thin, or young types, are more likely, flavor-wise, to be a psychic than a kinetic. Psychics tap the power of their own mind to use their abilities, so they use Intelligence. The kinetic channels an external power through their own bodies that threatens to overwhelm them, so they use Constitution.

I'm not sure comparing it to other, similar sources of fiction is helpful; in the long run, this class can allow a lot of concepts, but it's not designed to let you play anything. There are a lot of fictitious wizards that don't use magic in the same way that a Pathfinder wizard does, for example, but their abilities can still be used for inspiration for spells, archetypes, feats, and similar abilities; similarly, I would view things like Avatar: the Last Airbender, Carrie, Firestarter, Iceman, The Human Torch, and the countless other elemental-themed or telekinetic characters as inspiration for the kinetic, not something that should necessarily inform the conceptual niche the class should fill.

In short, it has its own niche already, and making it so amorphous that it can fill every niche is just going to make it harder to define in the context of a setting and give it less identity...and is destined to fail already. If you want a system where you can design exactly what you want, you should probably shoot for a classless system like Mutants & Masterminds, Big Eyes Small Mouth, Wild Talents, and countless others. There should be some flexibility to leave your own imprint, certainly, not just having a single build that seems to be the only one that really works effectively (which some say is a problem that needs addressing), but having it be "Oh, a kineticist channels power through its body, except when it doesn't, using the elemental planes via the ethereal unless it's something else or whatever, lol," is definitely off-putting. Creating variant versions via archetypes? Sure. That's fine. But the basic version should not be so amorphous as to avoid definition...especially when Paizo is going to have to nail down what kineticists are in their setting.

If you don't like the default niche...hey, homebrew time. Houserules are fine, and if you prefer a different flavor in your own setting, it's pretty easy to do. Personally, I think keeping it based off of Constitution and Dexterity is helpful, and allows it to work with a lot of ideas. After all, having a high constitution does not necessarily make you a muscular powerhouse. People who are short or skinny can have a surprising amount of endurance or resilience, while people who look big and tough might be the first ones hit by a cold every time, or be surprisingly weak against pain. You never know...

[Dragon78]

When I think Kineticist, I think of Carrie or Firestarter not benders. Benders to me would be monks with elemental powers. This might be the closest thing we will get to benders but they are not benders. Since the class is based on psychokinesis(mind movement) this is basically a class that is mind over matter so it should be mental based.

[Blackwaltzomega]

Cheapy wrote:

I find it curious that people here lament the fact that caster or caster types so far outpace martials, and then they also lament that this class isn't better at ranged attacking than martials.

It's almost as quixotic as people complaining that martials can shut down psychic casters with a Demoralize action.

Not to say there are no problems with this class. There are problems with any class that anyone designs. Designers are only human. But it's still curious.

People tend to lament that caster types outpace martials in things not involving ranged attacking. Nobody I know of has ever claimed that a caster is better than a ranger or fighter at picking up a bow and making something's life hell with a storm of arrows, but there are problems with magic outpacing martials with abilities like turning invisible to sneak past enemies, scrying ahead to avoid fights they don't want, casting spells that turn a fight into a massacre with one failed saving throw, or discovering the enemy's location and teleporting a million miles so the martial type can shoot them full of arrows in their bedroom.

The kineticist isn't really a caster. It has some magical powers, but for the most part the class as it exists now is a damage dealer whose only real advantage over martials, who are the best damage dealers, is that it can use Wild Talents to gain modes of movement the martial cannot.

Being able to fly without dumping a crapload of your WBL or asking the wizard for a favor is aces, but let's not joke, the Kineticist isn't a caster. It's a martial with supernatural powers, and it needs to up its game a little to fit in with its brethren. It's no good if the caster's got the utility, the martial's got the killing power, and the Kineticist is on its own, feeling overshadowed by BOTH of them. Right now it's not quite "fighty" enough to hang with the damage dealers and not versatile enough to hang with the casters. One or the other (or a little more of both) needs to be upped.