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mlp, you keep tempting me to quote... That's evil!
Burn is not a class mechanic, it's a cost. The mechanic is "do this at-will but take this penalty until you get to the point when you can ignore the penalty."
Burn is a mechanic. And it is a class feature. In the same way that Rage is ("Use this ability and get X benefit, but also these penalties").
Except, the Barbarian uses Rage to excel, while Kineticists use FtB to achieve mediocrity. When a Barbarian (or any other class with limited-use class feature) runs out of uses of his class features, he's not suddenly weaker than he'd be if he didn't have those features in the first place... The Kineticist is.
That's the problem with Kineticists, they have to put a lot of effort and sacrifice just to be average...
And I'm still curious about what you think a good hit chance is for same CR enemies ;)
How about the same accuracy as any other medium BAB class using their features? A Cleric who casts Divine Favor is not just at Rogue's level of accuracy. Neither is an Inquisitor who uses Judgement or Bane... Or a Hunter using Animal Focus and the teamwork feats he shares with his animal companion. Much less a Bard with Bardic Performance...
I don't know all the details of your build but I will say Improved Critical probably made a big difference on your end.
No, my initial numbers had neither Weapon Focus nor Improved Critical because I didn't know the blast could count as a weapon for that until Mark clarified. The 40.6 or so also included Deadly Aim, which ultimately turned out to decrease my DPR. Removing Deadly Aim and replacing it with Weapon Focus and Improved Critical bumped it up to ~48.8 DPR.
Being level 11 is another feat and another d6+1 damage on the blast, and 20k gold, but it shouldn't be a 20 point difference, should it?
Being level 11 is another feat and another d6+1 damage on the blast, and 20k gold, but it shouldn't be a 20 point difference, should it?
Found it. I forgot to account for Empower Matakinesis... Still, notice my EDIT. A Warrior with Vital Strike deals more damage with a standard action than the Kineticist would deal even if his blast's damage were [10d6+10+Con modifier].
EDIT: By Poseidon's beard! I just noticed I spent my whole day off playing video-games and discussing a playtest class... Urgh... I gotta go to bed...
Good night to you all... Or good morning or good afternoon, depending on where you live.
mlp, you keep tempting me to quote... That's evil!
As long as we cut the quotes to relevant bits, I think it's fine. I'm finding the conversation really revelatory as far as the class is concerned.
How about the same accuracy as any other medium BAB class using their features? A Cleric who casts Divine Favor is not just a Rogue's level of accuracy. Neither is an Inquisitor who uses Judgement or Bane... Or a Hunter using Animal Focus and the teamwork feats he shares with his animal companion. Much less a Bard with Bardic Performance...
Ok, so, I figured you could have gotten a +20, right? With Feel the Burn and the better Dex. But let's say you didn't use Kinetic Form. Let's say you just had the 20 Dex (+5), Feel the Burn (+3) [like it or not, this is required], BAB (+7), Weapon Focus (+1), and those two items (+2) for a +18 to hit. Against CR 10 with an average AC of 24, you'll hit 75% of the time.
This bonus, by the way, is literally all day. 100% of the time, with no conditions or anything.
Bards, assuming all the same stuff (a magic weapon to equal your FtB and their own equivalent attribute, etc.), can use Inspire Courage to get a +2 to hit on top of those numbers, which puts their accuracy at 85%. Of course, the Bard would also put your hit at 85%...
The Cleric or Inquisitor gets +3, so...90% hit rate.
The Hunter is going to get maybe +1 to hit over their belt anyway, and their teamwork feats don't usually add accuracy (plus, you could just take those, too, if you wanted).
So, you think a class only works if it can hit 85-90% of the time? Do you really think those classes have such high accuracy for their first attacks? No, I think at that point, the reason for the accuracy is that they need to hit with their second attacks a certain amount of the time to actually contribute the proper amount of damage.
An Inquisitor is getting +3 hit/+4 damage if they want with their Judgment. With a Greatsword, the same +5 Str, and Power Attack, they're doing 2d6+20 (27) per hit at 80% and 55% accuracy, respectively. The Kineticist is doing an empowered 5d6+13 (45.75). Actually doing the DPR on that, you get the Inquisitor with 36.45 DPR and the Kineticist with 34.3125. (I know there's no crits included, but it should be close).
Yes, the Kineticist is behind, but not by that much. A damage buff should be sufficient. The Inquisitor could have had Furious Focus, but the Kineticist could have been in Kinetic Form. There's some back and forth. They need more damage, but a couple of points of accuracy is not that big (especially considering almost every more accurate character is actually trading their accuracy for more damage with Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Piranha Strike, Rapid Shot, TWF, etc.).
Edit:
A Warrior with Vital strike deals more damage with a standard action than the Kineticist would deal even if his blast's damage were [10d6+10+Con modifier].
Ok, let's see where that's coming from. Can I assume all the same stats and weapons and stuff, except +3 to hit from BAB? And he has Vital Strike, Power Attack, and Furious Focus?
That'd be a 90% hit rate for 4d6+19 (33 average), right? So, 29.7 DPR?
The normal blast without empowerment would be 5d6+13 (30.5), so, 22.875.
With 10d6+10+Con (and FtB, because, again, mandatory), 53 average, you'd need to go down to a 55% hit rate before the warrior wins.
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Ok, let's see where that's coming from. Can I assume all the same stats and weapons and stuff, except +3 to hit from BAB? And he has Vital Strike, Power Attack, and Furious Focus?
That'd be a 90% hit rate for 4d6+19 (33 average), right? So, 29.7 DPR?
The normal blast without empowerment would be 5d6+13 (30.5), so, 22.875.
With 10d6+10+Con (and FtB, because, again, mandatory), 53 average, you'd need to go down to a 55% hit rate before the warrior wins.
The Warrior also has full BAB, which means he gets Improved Critical. With Power Attack/Vital Strike, that's +20 (4d6+21/18-20/x2) ... Average DPR is 41.65
The Kineticists would attack with +18 (10d6+14)... Which goes creates an average DPR of... 40.42, which is different from my last calculation (I'm not sure what's the difference. I guess I really do need to sleep), but still lower than the Warrior's average standard action DPR.
And yes... Characters don't need 90% accuracy... But if they are going to lose half their life in incurable damage, they deserve 90% accuracy... Again, Burn is a high price to pay just to achieve mediocrity.
Urgh... Whatever... See you tomorrow... Or later today, I guess... It's past midnight already, after all...
And yes... Characters don't need 90% accuracy... But if they are going to lose half their life in incurable damage, they deserve 90% accuracy... Again, Burn is a high price to pay just to achieve mediocrity.
Looks like you'll be asleep and won't see this before tomorrow, but... My kineticist has 90% accuracy. And that's with the Earth Blast, assuming I calculated everything properly.
I'm just gonna let others keep calculating the numbers, while I keep tossing out random ideas that pop into my head...
...Like a Gun-eticist! A firearms archetype for the Kineticist that allows him to use his blast energy for ammo, or, if he uses bullets, add his minimum blast damage to the attacks with his guns.
To be fair, this idea mostly sprang from the thought of a Pistolero 5/Kineticist X with Conductive pistols. An empowered blast added onto a gunslinger's gun? That's one way to make a GM cry.
Or maybe, a Kineticist/Gunslinger that uses a big rifle with Conductive and Vital Strikes as a sniper. This sounds kind of fun too.
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Burn is not a class mechanic, it's a cost. The mechanic is "do this at-will but take this penalty until you get to the point when you can ignore the penalty."
But that's just terrible design. In reality it is: "do this at will at the point when you can ignore the penalty". As it is now the penalty is so steep for so little effect you will never bother with any of it until it is free. That is why, once again, I'm an advocate for scaling wild talents useable at different 'grades' and available early. Using burn should be a mechanic that allows you to do greater than level appropriate things, instead of allowing you to keep pace with everyone else...
Burn would be okay if it were not the primary way to boost your class features...
IMHO, at least one of the following things should happen:
- Kineticists get a resource pool, similar to a Monk's ki pool. When they run out of that resource, they can use Burn.
- Burn should boost powers to great new heights, instead of simply making sure they don't lag behind. Kineticists pay a very high price just to be mediocre.
- At very least, Kineticists should grow better at using move actions to reduce the cost of Burn. Maybe -2 at 7th level and -3 at 14th... Maybe become able to use it as a swift action as well... It just makes sense (Why wouldn't Kineticists try to improve such a critical ability?)! And that would also make Metakinesis actually useful without being suicidal.
I hope Mark is considering these.
I liked the Burn and the Gather element/energy synergy, so we finished turning it into a separate class feature named Gather Element (Su) and we are now playtesting with these changes:
.Increased the Burn reduction Kineticst gets at 1st level when gathering elemental matter: at 7th level as a move action the Kineticist gathers element for a 2 Burn point reduction or 1 point reduction and gathering as a Swift Action.
At 11th the reduction applies also to "Other wild talents".
At 15th level as a move action the kineticist gather element for a 3 point reduction, 2 point if gathering as a swift action or 1 point if gathering as a free action. The kineticist still requires two hand free.
This substituted wild talents gained at 7th and 15th.
.Substituted Infusion Specialization with Expanded Talent, a new class features that elects to choose "utility" wild talents (those in the category named "Other Wild Talents" plus the Expanded Element wild talents). Also at 2nd level the Kineticist receives now an Expanded Talent.
.change skill points gaininig to 4 + int, spellcraft and knowledge(planes) as class skill for all
.heat blast for Fire, dealing untyped damage and hitting normal AC
.acid blast for Earth, dealing acid damage like fire blast
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But that's to be OPTIMAL at a certain role. Which is fine. To be the best at something, obviously some options are better than others for a given role.
When you are forced into a cookie cutter build just to be PASSABLE, that's a problem.
The optimal Barbarian (Beast Totem Superstition Spell Sunder) is cookie cutter, but a Barbarian with a different build can still be passable (excellent, really). Sam with most other classes.
Nothing forces you into a specific build.
You could just as easily be a strength based geokineticist in full plate. Same AC, same effectiveness in melee.
But that's to be OPTIMAL at a certain role. Which is fine. To be the best at something, obviously some options are better than others for a given role.
When you are forced into a cookie cutter build just to be PASSABLE, that's a problem.
The optimal Barbarian (Beast Totem Superstition Spell Sunder) is cookie cutter, but a Barbarian with a different build can still be passable (excellent, really). Same with most other classes.
Nothing forces you into a specific build.
You could just as easily be a strength based geokineticist in full plate. Same AC, same effectiveness in melee.
There are two (really one) effective Kineticist builds currently. One involves stacking on boring +X Feats so your to-hit matches a Rogue on a good day, and the other involves saying "Screw it" to attempting to use the Blast mechanic and all associated abilities at all, and just whacking people over the head with a Kinetic Blade.
Which is nice as an option, but not when it's the only truly effective option on a class based around a ranged blast mechanic.
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Blast. One hour edit windows. Better, the spoiler hiding system won't let me copy it correctly. Well, either way these edits should be implemented by anyone who notices. *shrug*I am not sure it is possible for a level 10 martial style character to beat 5 titan centipedes. They each have 135 hp, and average 38 damage a hit. They are also colossal sized, so if you were a melee you would probably provoke at least one attack of opportunity trying to get them.
I think the archer fighter I linked does ~80 dpr? He gets one round of shots, doesn't kill one, then all 5 charge him (lol 60 foot speed) and smash him into many pieces
Possible, yes, and without taking damage. But only if using specific builds.
The geokineticist can do it using Earth Glide and Tremorsense. The centipedes will never have an opportunity to attack, as the geokineticist will never come above ground.
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But that's to be OPTIMAL at a certain role. Which is fine. To be the best at something, obviously some options are better than others for a given role.
When you are forced into a cookie cutter build just to be PASSABLE, that's a problem.
The optimal Barbarian (Beast Totem Superstition Spell Sunder) is cookie cutter, but a Barbarian with a different build can still be passable (excellent, really). Same with most other classes.
Nothing forces you into a specific build.
You could just as easily be a strength based geokineticist in full plate. Same AC, same effectiveness in melee.
There are two (really one) effective Kineticist builds currently. One involves stacking on boring +X Feats so your to-hit matches a Rogue on a good day, and the other involves saying "Screw it" to attempting to use the Blast mechanic and all associated abilities at all, and just whacking people over the head with a Kinetic Blade.
Which is nice as an option, but not when it's the only truly effective option on a class based around a ranged blast mechanic.
Which tells me you've not looked at strength based melee builds. You are simply going off the builds others have posted and are following along with their opinions.
If you want to see what can and cannot be done, stop listening to the complaints of others and instead ask yourself, "How can I make this work?"
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Okay, I'm bad at picking mobs. Let's try this then, what's a good creature for that level which would, when placed about five deep in a room, be a strong challenge to any solo character? I'm not necessarily bent on the PC surviving the encounter, but they should be able to live long enough to compare how they handle the situation. It's a stress test. Any suggestions for a mob enemy that works here?
Blast. One hour edit windows. Better, the spoiler hiding system won't let me copy it correctly. Well, either way these edits should be implemented by anyone who notices. *shrug*I am not sure it is possible for a level 10 martial style character to beat 5 titan centipedes. They each have 135 hp, and average 38 damage a hit. They are also colossal sized, so if you were a melee you would probably provoke at least one attack of opportunity trying to get them.
I think the archer fighter I linked does ~80 dpr? He gets one round of shots, doesn't kill one, then all 5 charge him (lol 60 foot speed) and smash him into many pieces
Possible, yes, and without taking damage. But only if using specific builds.
The geokineticist can do it using Earth Glide and Tremorsense. The centipedes will never have an opportunity to attack, as the geokineticist will never come above ground.
Truthfully, Earth Glide is an extremely powerful ability when solo. Only flying mobs have a chance. Even then, neither side can hurt the other.
Better to simply ignore the ability when making comparisons.
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The Warrior also has full BAB, which means he gets Improved Critical. With Power Attack/Vital Strike, that's +20 (4d6+21/18-20/x2) ... Average DPR is 41.65
The Kineticists would attack with +18 (10d6+14)... Which goes creates an average DPR of... 40.42, which is different from my last calculation (I'm not sure what's the difference. I guess I really do need to sleep), but still lower than the Warrior's average standard action DPR.
I did do it quick and dirty before, with no crits, but even with them, I am getting very different numbers here. We're assuming everything is the same here (equal attack stats, a magic weapon equal to feel the burn, etc), right?
That gives me 2d6 (weapon) + 2d6 (vital strike, not multiplied on a crit) + 7 (1.5 x 5 Str) + 3 (enhancement) + 9 (power attack) = 4d6+19 (33 average; 59 on a crit)
With a 90% hit rate and improved crit, that's 34.38 DPR. Even if we use those 2 extra points of damage in your calculation, we're only up to 36.54. And without vital strike (which is more likely because vital strike's uses are extremely limited) we're down to 30.34.
The hypothetical 10d blast, meanwhile, is looking at 10d6 (base) + 10 (base) + 5 (Con) + 3 (FtB) = 10d6 + 18 (53 average; 106 on a crit).
With a 75% hit rate (the only advantage is 3 bab), that's 41.7375 DPR. Well ahead of the warrior.
In fact, switching the warrior to a fighter yields only a very small increase. You get +2 more to hit and +4 damage (weapon spec and weapon training) and the hit rate only bumps up to 95%, as the excess is wasted on non-mythic champions. That yields a 40.85 dpr with vital strike or 34.2 without.
To get closer to that figure (sadly, mark does not want the kineticist to put do a fighter), the kineticist needs a damage bump, but double is too much. Raising each step from 1d6+1 to 1d8+2 (meaning 5d8+10 at 10th) yields 31.89375 DPR. That's still probably too low. Maybe doubling the damage buff from FtB as well? It's tricky. Double is too high, but you still want a clean, memorizable pattern.
However, in trying to build a character for actial play, rather than dpr trials, I noticed a huge problem that needs addressing: kineticists need, easily, twice as many wild talents. Seriously, they are balanced below a fighter now on the assumption that you have more utility, but you can't really afford to actually take any.
As an example, all kineticists should, at some point be taking extended and snaking. Even if you want to play melee, you want those so you can ride the blast into melee range at 10th. And look at that: extended, kinetic blade, kinetic which, snaking, and ride the blast...you have one open 1st level utility slot until 12th. And of course, you probably have to take a crappy power like kinetic cover or icewalk/air cushion to meet the requirements of the power you really want (say, water manipulator, wings of air, etc.).
A guy upthread said he couldn't make a character that didn't start with slick, but I couldn't figure out how he could possibly fit that in. The extra talent feat kind of helps, but the tier delay hurts bad, since the upper levels are when all the good stuff shows up. Especially if this is not all of the wild talents, kineticists desperately need more access.
And, you know what? Getting all of these cool utility powers or bare minimum required powers depending on perspective eats up all your specializations. You have to take form for the first two. It is just about required. All the best ones are form (extend, snaking, kinetic blade/whip). You might as well keep going, too, because going back for some low level substance infusions is no fun when you could save up for something actually awesome like sharding.
I think the 3.5 warlock had the right idea by giving blast shapes separately from utility invocations. Kineticist desperately needs that, too. Maybe give utility on odds and blast shapes on evens (since offense already goes up on odds with damage increases and feats).
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Quick question guys -
In the playtest document under Wild Talents, it's stated that,
"At 6th, 10th, and 16th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her wild talents with another wild talent of the same level."
When they say, "of the same level" here, do they mean of the same level as the current kineticist level (so at 6th level, you can replace a 1st level talent with a 6th level talent)? Or are they saying that you can replace a 1st level talent with another 1st level talent?
I'm slightly confused by the wording, and I wanted a clarification.
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Which tells me you've not looked at strength based melee builds. You are simply going off the builds others have posted and are following along with their opinions.If you want to see what can and cannot be done, stop listening to the complaints of others and instead ask yourself, "How can I make this work?"
Except no, your strength based melee build falls under the category of "Forget blasting, I'm just going to hit people with Kinetic Blade."
You also have Arcane Strike without qualifying for it, but that's another matter entirely.
If only the Light-bringer trait did not give an arcane SLA equal to character level.....
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But you're not an elf as far as I can tell. Lightbringer is an elven Racial Trait, not a Race Trait.Lightbringer gives an arcane SLA. Kineticist supplies the caster level.
Which tells me you've not looked at strength based melee builds. You are simply going off the builds others have posted and are following along with their opinions.If you want to see what can and cannot be done, stop listening to the complaints of others and instead ask yourself, "How can I make this work?"
Except no, your strength based melee build falls under the category of "Forget blasting, I'm just going to hit people with Kinetic Blade."
You also have Arcane Strike without qualifying for it, but that's another matter entirely.
Actually, a level 10 PC is CR 10. PC wealth adds +1 CR.Since the PC is 9, try something like 5 -3/4. For example, 5 Skum for level 5 challenge or 5 Lamia for the level ten challenge.
Something to remember, a level 10 character is cr 9, so 5 cr 6 vs a cr 9 is more appropriate than 5 cr 9 vs a cr 9
Would you prefer I pick any one of a half-dozen other traits that grant an SLA? Kineticist already have a caster level.
Trifler? Arcane Dabbler?
Both grant Arcane SLA's the use the characters highest caster level.
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Okay! Fine! You win! Kineticists need more damage!
My real problem is with Feel the Burn.
If it's obligatory, then it shouldn't hurt the character. The Rogue is not losing half his life to wield his magic weapon.
If it's optional (and IMO, it should be), then the Kineticist should be able to work without it and excel when using it, which means he needs a boost to accuracy/damage. That's not the case... Without FtB, Kineticists have the accuracy and damage of a Rogue with no magic (or even masterwork) weapon.
Burn is a high price to pay for mediocrity... What other class has to use their best buffs and resources just to be mediocre?
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Here are examples of character who are at least as good as a Fighter...
- A Cleric using his highest level spells and domain powers.
- A Ranger fighting his Favored Enemy
- A Paladin using Smite Evil
- An Inquisitor using Judgement and Bane
- A Hunter using Animal Aspect and fighting side-by-side with his Animal Companion
- A Druid using Wildshape and spells
- A Magus using Arcana and spells.
- A Sorcerer using metamagic blast spells.
- An Alchemist using Extracts/Mutagens.
And so on... Do you see the pattern yet? All of those classes use their limited-use class features to excel! Their resources allow them to go above and beyond! And many of those resources are not even all that limited, nor do they make you weaker for using them.
The Kineticist, OTOH, is not only restricted to mediocrity, he is also paying the highest price of them all. A "permanent" loss of hp.
So while those classes lose access to their class features if they use them too much, they at least don't grow weaker than they'd be if they didn't have those features in the first place. The Kineticist does. And not only that, after using Burn once or twice, he becomes so fragile that even a mook can put him down... And unlike Wizards/Sorcerers, he doesn't have a bazillion different spells to boost his defenses... Just some okay-ish powers.
And then we have the fact that losing hp in Pathfinder is particularly dangerous... Rocket-tag is already a known problem in the game, whether people admit or not... A moderately optimized 2-handed Ranger can already one-shot CR-appropriate enemies... And also be one-shot by that same enemy.
How much does Burn exacerbate that problem? Specially if the Kineticist gets a (much needed) damage boost? He can kill the enemy in one round... But a mook can also put him down in the same time.
I don't go looking for Rocket Tag in my games, but it still shows up, because attack/damage outpaces AC/hp, often with little to no effort... And my players are not even particularly good or worried about optimization. Specially when average character level reaches the double digits.
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tl;dr:
Other Classes: Use limited resources to excel
Kineticists: Use a very limited resource to be mediocre
Other Classes: Uses up their ability and they become as weak as they would be if they didn't have those abilities in the first place
Kineticists: Uses up their ability and they become weaker than they would be if they didn't have that ability in the first place.
Burn is too taxing and too difficult to correctly balance. Losing hp would need more playtest to get it right. And we are not getting more playtest time. It's best to simply let it go.
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You could just as easily be a strength based geokineticist in full plate. Same AC, same effectiveness in melee.Catch me up... I'm a "few" posts behind... why build a strength based kineticist?
The playtest doc says STR damage does not apply to Kinetic Blade. The build posted seems to use STR damage in its calcs for Kinetic Blade.
Did the base playtest doc get updated to change this?
Thanks!
Strength damage does not apply, but you receive no damage bonus from dexterity either. The geokineticist's kinetic form gives strength, might as well test using that stat to determine to-hit bonuses while wearing heavy armor.
There is also the option to simply forgo Kinetic Blade and hit things with a weapon. My numbers are still a work in progress, so I cannot say if the build it better attacking with a melee weapon or class abilities.
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Accuracy if you're not using Weapon Finesse, and you can't use Weapon Finesse if you want to get the 1:3 returns on Power Attack.It doesn't and it hasn't. The build's damage breakdown is as follows:
5d6+5 base + 3 con + 3 FtB + 9 power attack + 3 arcane strikeThanks for that breakdown.
What is the point of pumping STR past 13?
This, which is why I am testing a strength-based build idea.
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tl;dr:
Other Classes: Use limited resources to excel
Kineticists: Use a very limited resource to be mediocre
Other Classes: Uses up their ability and they become as weak as they would be if they didn't have those abilities in the first place
Kineticists: Uses up their ability and now they are weaker than they would be if they didn't have that ability in the first place.Burn is too taxing and too difficult to correctly balance. Losing hp would need more playtest to get it right. And we are not getting more playtest time. It's best to simply let it go.
The smart kineticist is only going to accept enough burn to maximize his FtB bonus. Usually by activating all-day abilities. With CON as a casting stat, he should still have as many, or more, hit points as other d8 classes. Additional burn should only be taken to NOVA the BBEG or prevent a TPK.
The smart kineticist is only going to accept enough burn to maximize his FtB bonus. Usually by activating all-day abilities. With CON as a casting stat, he should still have as many, or more, hit points as other d8 classes. Additional burn should only be taken to NOVA the BBEG or prevent a TPK.
"The smart Kineticist will do all he can to avoid using his class features. Because they not only negate the main benefit of having Con as their casting stat, they also make him weaker. i.e.: You might as well ignore composite blasts and metakinesis, unless you want to be taken down by a mook."
No other class goes into vegetative state because they went nova... And many of those have much better tricks a than a glorified Sneak Attack.
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Quick question guys -
In the playtest document under Wild Talents, it's stated that,
"At 6th, 10th, and 16th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her wild talents with another wild talent of the same level."
When they say, "of the same level" here, do they mean of the same level as the current kineticist level (so at 6th level, you can replace a 1st level talent with a 6th level talent)? Or are they saying that you can replace a 1st level talent with another 1st level talent?
I'm slightly confused by the wording, and I wanted a clarification.
^I'm bumping this question, as I think it got lost in a debate of "smart kineticists."