Wouldn't matter against the Sorcerer, relatively unlikely to matter against the Ninja unless you caught him with his Stealth down when he happened to be within Blade/Whip range, should have leveled the playing field against the Oracle, should have lead to the Archer being forced into a melee confrontation after, at best, one shot (and since the Kineticist is more likely to have the higher Initiative here... not good times for the Archer).
The Oracle could just as easily save or sucked him as the Sorcerer, and likely had self buffs to up attacks and enough energy resistance to make the kineticist's touch attacks worthless.
The Archer would unquestionably have the Fighter feat that lets them fire in melee without provoking. I also can't figure out why a Kineticist would have an initiative advantage over an Archer fighter. They're likely to have the same Dex, and the Fighter even has twice as many feats (in case Improved Initiative comes up).
Further, the idea that a Kineticist, built around a ranged blast, needs to go into melee to compete is problematic for me. If Kinetic Blade/Whip are that good (and they are), they should probably be free, not a secret Infusion-tax.
Further, the idea that a Kineticist, built around a ranged blast, needs to go into melee to compete is problematic for me.
Me too. It seems that the class was meant to be a CON based ranged class but ends up being a DEX based melee class.
So I have seen several people say that Mark's perspective is off because Skull's & Shackles is a low AC adventure, at least for the first two books. I went through and compared the AC, both touch and regular, of the first two books of Skull's and of Iron Gods. For book one Iron Gods comes out to be about 1 point of AC higher the Skull's for both touch and regular. For the second books Skull's is 1 higher on AC but 1 lower on touch.
These numbers don't take into account that in book 1 of Skull's there are no creatures with elemental resistances or DR. In Iron Gods there are 5 resistances, 14 immunities, and 15 instances of DR. This would definitely have an impact of the kineticist's effectiveness.
I'll do a comparison to other APs later. Just off the top of my head, the ACs in Runelords are a lot higher because Goblins.
Mark, there needs to be a psychic equivalent of the Arcane Trickster Prestige class. I mean, Kineticist/Rogue/Psychic Trickster just sounds like a buttload of fun.
Actually, this is fairly doable with a relatively small Prestige Class errata / FAQ.
The kineticist's blast feature states that the blast talent itself is treated as a spell with a level equal to half of the kineticist's level, and since spell-like abilities can now be used to qualify for feats and prestige classes that require spellcasting (the very same FAQ that allows an aasimar's daylight SLA to qualify), a kineticist meets the "ability to cast 2nd-level spells" prerequisite at Level 4. In effect, the kineticist can jump into arcane trickster at the same time as the sorcerer.
Now, the needed FAQ that I mentioned would be a clarification on whether or not increases to a character's caster level from a Prestige Class applies to spell-like abilities. If it does, then the arcane striker's caster level bonus could theoretically boost the power of the kineticist, allowing the blast to scale with prestige class levels. If it doesn't, then creating a feat that would allow the kineticist to do this (such as the blade adept arcanist's one exploit) would still allow the kineticst to jump into the arcane trickster and be somewhat effective at the role.
EDIT: This, of course, depends on whether or not the "ability to cast psychic spells" meets the prerequisite of "ability to cast arcane spells," as well as whether or not the kineticist's spell-like ability is classified as an arcane spell (as the Core Rulebook assumes by default) or as a psychic spell (which would need clarification in the blast class feature). Again, another feat could allow this to work.
The kineticist's blast feature states that the blast talent itself is treated as a spell with a level equal to half of the kineticist's level, and since spell-like abilities can now be used to qualify for feats and prestige classes that require spellcasting (the very same FAQ that allows an aasimar's daylight SLA to qualify), a kineticist meets the "ability to cast 2nd-level spells" prerequisite at Level 4. In effect, the kineticist can jump into arcane trickster at the same time as the sorcerer.
The problem would be that they's lose the ability to qualify when the spell level hit 3rd level as you don't qualify for lower spell levels with the FAQ: a second level SLA only counts as second level spell access.
I just thought of the hyrokineticist's must have item: Decanter of Endless Water. Tremorsense anywhere!
Hehehe, I was wondering when someone would think of that one :D Nice!
So I have seen several people say that Mark's perspective is off because Skull's & Shackles is a low AC adventure, at least for the first two books. I went through and compared the AC, both touch and regular, of the first two books of Skull's and of Iron Gods. For book one Iron Gods comes out to be about 1 point of AC higher the Skull's for both touch and regular. For the second books Skull's is 1 higher on AC but 1 lower on touch.
These numbers don't take into account that in book 1 of Skull's there are no creatures with elemental resistances or DR. In Iron Gods there are 5 resistances, 14 immunities, and 15 instances of DR. This would definitely have an impact of the kineticist's effectiveness.
Thanks for the math! Want an interesting monkey wrench? The GM wanted to stress test more, since we were explicitly looking to test the kineticist's accuracy, so most of the ACs in this run of Skull and Shackles were significantly higher than listed (most monsters had Advanced simple template for +4 AC, NPC foes were 1 level higher and usually used the extra wealth to buy better armor for themselves, generally worth at least +2 AC). I think DR would have actually favored the kineticist over the brawler. Ti would have been forced to use a two-handed weapon, to avoid hitting DR twice, instead of her more-damaging flurry of punches.
I gave the players the average wealth to buy any equipment. I'm Gming a lvl 2 playtest right now with a aero, swashbucler, fighter and skald group.
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Played our local PFS game as a water Kineticist with Healer. He ran Hall of the Flesh Eaters...at tier 1. I am glad I was a healer. At low level there was at least 1 encounter in there that was very rough on the damage. It was all myself and and a cleric with a wand of cure lights could do to keep up our barbarian.
At 1st level it does feel like Kinetic Healer does out heal pure damage points on a 1 to 1 basis, but at higher levels doing a little math once you account for a clerics ability to aoe channel the whole party and do status removals. That cleric will still be the top healer, which is perfectly fine I think. It was nice being able to supplement the party with that talent.
I can't say much about the water blast itself, as my dice were not with me for ranged attacks the whole session :( Max heals usually but not hits.
One thing that that slightly bothered me though, is it does feel like if you pick the touch attack simple blast instead of the basic one that you are being punished on your Kinetic Healer talent. Since healer only heals your blast damage. My 1st lvl human with an 18 con, could water blast and heal for 1d6+5, but if I pick cold blast my healer only does 1d6+2. Which will quite quickly fall away from water blast in healing.
My mentioned PFS character would do the following blast or heal points at theses levels:
Lvl Icy Dice (range) Water Dice (range)
1: 1D6+2 (3-8) / 1D6+5 (6-11)
3: 2D6+2 (4-14) / 2D6+6 (8-20)
5: 3D6+2 (5-20) / 3D6+7 (10-25)
7: 4D6+2 (6-26) / 4D6+8 (12-32)
9: 5D6+2 (7-32) / 5D6+9 (14-39)
It really seems Kinect Healer should have a set dice and progression of its own. Or just take Icy out of the picture by stating it heals an amount equal to a Telekinetic Blast or Water Blast no matter what simple blast you have taken (in the event Aether gets a secondary blast).
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I noticed less of a DR problem in Trial by Machine compared to the Zen Archer, empower helped and he didnt have adamantine arrows (blanch doesn't work vs. hardness).
The damage gap between 4 and 5 is huge though. Going from 2d6+2+Con or 1/2 Con to 3d6+3+Con or 1/2 Con x1.5 makes a huge difference, esp. in 4 - 5 tier in PFS. I wonder if empower should come at 4 so:
Lvl
3 2d6+2+Con or 1/2 Con
4 2d6+2+Con or 1/2 Con x 1.5
5 3d6+3+Con or 1/2 Con
might be a better progression.
Also the need for precise shot is a common ranged problem but most ranged base classes or archetypes get a bonus
Fighter bonus feat
Ranger Bonus at second
Divine Hunter Paladin precise at first
Hunter free precise at second
Zen Archer free precise at first
Gunslinger target touch (note not all Kineticists do, unless you get both blasts i stead)
Slayer ranger feats
are some examples. I would suggest two blasts at first for versatility, flavor and way around early accuracy problems.
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Mark, there needs to be a psychic equivalent of the Arcane Trickster Prestige class. I mean, Kineticist/Rogue/Psychic Trickster just sounds like a buttload of fun.Actually, this is fairly doable with a relatively small Prestige Class errata / FAQ.
The kineticist's blast feature states that the blast talent itself is treated as a spell with a level equal to half of the kineticist's level, and since spell-like abilities can now be used to qualify for feats and prestige classes that require spellcasting (the very same FAQ that allows an aasimar's daylight SLA to qualify), a kineticist meets the "ability to cast 2nd-level spells" prerequisite at Level 4. In effect, the kineticist can jump into arcane trickster at the same time as the sorcerer.
Now, the needed FAQ that I mentioned would be a clarification on whether or not increases to a character's caster level from a Prestige Class applies to spell-like abilities. If it does, then the arcane striker's caster level bonus could theoretically boost the power of the kineticist, allowing the blast to scale with prestige class levels. If it doesn't, then creating a feat that would allow the kineticist to do this (such as the blade adept arcanist's one exploit) would still allow the kineticst to jump into the arcane trickster and be somewhat effective at the role.
EDIT: This, of course, depends on whether or not the "ability to cast psychic spells" meets the prerequisite of "ability to cast arcane spells," as well as whether or not the kineticist's spell-like ability is classified as an arcane spell (as the Core Rulebook assumes by default) or as a psychic spell (which would need clarification in the blast class feature). Again, another feat could allow this to work.
Psychic SLA don't count as Arcane, that's why Kineticists can't take Arcane Strike.
Speaking of composite blasts, in all reality is this a feature that adds a significant amount to the class as it stands now? From a balance perspective it doubles your damage. Since that interacts with maximize and empower, it makes the combination of the three far more powerful than using any one. It's basically a step of multiplication that makes the stacking of abilities a far more desirable action than just using your regular attack. To the point that I feel it's limiting the normal damage of the attack because to increase the damage dice progression any higher would make it ridiculous when you actually stack all these abilities. You could almost just drop either composite or meta, and crank the base damage to go up a dice every time your BAB does (max 15) or even to straight 1D6 per level, so that it doesn't feel like your normal attacks are useless and you only get 1-2 useful attacks a day.
This of course assuming that the iterative blast mechanic I put in my fanbuild idea isn't working. I still feel like several small blasts or 1 big blast should both be free options for this class.
Remember, when you use a Composite blast, it hits you for 2 burn every time until you get Composite Specialization which still hits you for 1 burn. So it's not something you'll be doing every round, only on important fights, because the non-lethal damage will add up and it adds up real fast.
Consider the fact that at 7th level, the earliest you can get a composite, if you had a 22 Con and used your favored class bonus to add to hap, you'd have an average of 84 hp. If you used your composite blast twice, you've been hit for 28 points of incurable damage. That's 1/3 of your over-all hit points in 2 rounds and that's not taking into account possible damage you could be taking from enemies.
I think when Zwordsman says *have*, he means to be competitive in damage. It's sniper ONCE or melee several attacks. It's much more effective to 'charge' with ride the blast and then melee than sniping. it's an issue. Myself I don't want to HAVE to melee and would prefer a mainly ranged character but there is a huge damage loss if you do.
Hmm...
Pyrokineticist + Blue Flame + Explosion + Ride the Blast = *BOOM* B****! Get out the way! Get out the way!
If only I could tack on a knock-back (like pushing infusion) to the blast to send people flying outside of the AoE :(
Just got it. Am I the only one who is kind of miffed that the Kineticist is the only class in all of Pathfinder that is forced to take damage) to use his class abilities?
Any way to fix that?
Am I the only one who is kind of miffed that the Kineticist is the only class in all of Pathfinder that is forced to take damage) to use his class abilities?
No.
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15th, 17th, and 19th are generally unplayed levels. 15th-16th level is usually the capstone of an AP.
So, realistically, you get 5, 8, and 11, with 14th as end-game.
That's a max of -4 to any combo of Form/Substance Talents.
At the average levels of play, which is 10th as "high levels", that's a max of 3.
The Kinetecist is especially bad at these levels, since it has (for most elements) no real Talents worth using. Especially if you're Fire.
Worse, it NEEDS Metakinetics to stay even competitive in damage with Blasts, and you can only reduce that by 1 max.
So, yes, you do need Burn to effectively use your main ability.
Class abilities.
From first level the Kineticist can expend their move action to decrease the burn they take from a blast talent that turn by one.
At 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th levels you have the ability to reduce the cost of either all Form Infusions or all Substance Infusions by one. This stacks and you can change your pick each time (for example, I picked Form at 5th and 8th and Substance for the rest, so at level 17 a Chilling Kinetic Whip (normally 5 Burn) costs nothing)
At 15th level all Composite Blasts cost one less Burn, and at 19th level a single Metakinetic ability costs one less Burn (I recommend Empowered to make it free).
Class abilities do nothing to reduce the amount of burn you need to activate Feel the Burn. You MUST hurt yourself if you want your + hit and damage.
*Shrug* The question was simply "any way to reduce Burn". The answer is "class features". Whether or not that's sufficient is an entirely separate discussion.
I'd disagree on the not-enough-talents thing, but then I'm a fan of the generic Form ones so my viewpoint may be very different from yours.
No, it was a statement that you have to hurt yourself to use the class abilities you are given and asking if there was "Any way to fix that?".
The fact is that his statement is true and everything you suggest never entirely removes the need to hurt yourself to use all your abilities.
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It sad that we won't have a 2nd draft of the class... The Kineticist sure got far more reviewing and analysis than all other playtest classes put together, but OTOH, it seems like it needs more rework than any other of them.
Low accuracy, mediocre damage, little to no out-of-combat utility, scarcity of good wild talents and the necessity to suffer a great deal of non-healable damage just to use class features are pretty serious problems that come together to create super-megazord problem.
:(
And its not like the thing you're trying to kill isn't taking hit points from you. There are a lot of things trying to kill you while you do all your fancy tricks. If you're taking uncurable non-lethal damage in addition to the damage that the baddies are inflicting, you're either severely limited to the base level blast and nothing else (boring) or you're suicidal.
And Rynjin is right, very few people play levels that high. I shouldn't have to play a character for 15 levels to make him balanced and effective in all fights.
Why not give them a kinetic pool or something to activate these abilities and then have the option to accept nonlethal damage once those points are used up? I wouldn't even care if that number is Con modifier +3 and never levels with the character, by the time you get to the abilities that require a lot of burn you'll have the hit points to survive them and still be in the fight.
Perhaps I misinterpreted the question. The way I read it was "Any way for the Kineticist to use its abilities without killing itself?"
That's not how I took it but fair enough.
There's also that Flagellant feat, which is kind of awesome, even if it doesn't quite fix the issue either.
Yes, that feat makes the burn as/is ok with me. I'd actually like that feat baked into the class (or something like it). Reduced effectiveness sits much better that a simple KO.