I can say that many monsters are actually terrifying when you play them intelligently...
For instance, Aboleths. I used to think they were kinda weak... until I sent 3 of them vs a party of slightly over geared level 10s... and nearly caused a TPK (it would have been a TPK if I didn't intentionally do some stupid stuff to allow the party to kill them since it was the very beginning of the game).
** spoiler omitted **
Those things have a dominate DC of 22. They suck in melee, but if they can make the party attack each other that is not a problem, and with a swim speed of 60 retreating is an option.
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Oh yeah xD. I mean, on first blush I was kinda meh, but once I used them I was legitimately terrified at their effectiveness... and this wasn't even with class levels.
A Dragon with armor is just... really, really, corny. It looks stupid. Hey, play the way you want- but it sounds, and looks stupid.
Now a Dragon throwing up Mage Armor (the best version of it if you are using other sources) and wearing a Ring of Protection... and maybe another buff if you want to go wild, sure, go for it.
Not really.
I mean, it is not that hard to visualize a dragon in plate barding...
in Dominions I like playing as the Aboleth Empire and just making their armies attack each other. mindcontrol is a fun thing to have.
A Dragon with armor is just... really, really, corny. It looks stupid. Hey, play the way you want- but it sounds, and looks stupid.
Now a Dragon throwing up Mage Armor (the best version of it if you are using other sources) and wearing a Ring of Protection... and maybe another buff if you want to go wild, sure, go for it.
Not really.
I mean, it is not that hard to visualize a dragon in plate barding...
I still say a Dragon doesn't wear armor for the same reason they don't wear clothes. They don't like wearing things that cover large portions of their body.
also, I sort of feel like dropping this here.
Its far more realistic if there are items the party can't use. Why must everything be focused around humans and human-sized/shaped creatures. There are many, many different creature types. Many of them are a different size and/or shape than humans. Why wouldn't they make their own magical gear?
I guess it comes down to one thing. Do you build the world around your specific players, ignoring everything else? Or do you make a more realistic fantasy world, which means there will be things the party can not use and there may be fights the party can not win?
It would also be far more realistic if the 10 tonne dragon instantly crushed the puny human in the thin metal sheathing. That doesn't mean it's fun.
players can actually get some insane carrying capacity.
A Dragon with armor is just... really, really, corny. It looks stupid. Hey, play the way you want- but it sounds, and looks stupid.
Now a Dragon throwing up Mage Armor (the best version of it if you are using other sources) and wearing a Ring of Protection... and maybe another buff if you want to go wild, sure, go for it.
Not really.
I mean, it is not that hard to visualize a dragon in plate barding...
Oh, I can visualize it, where it's stat based stuff fueled by rules... not fueled by story. I can also visualize a purple-polka dotted tentacled bear wearing a top hat, doesn't mean I'm putting one in my game. It's just bad.
Someone can make up all the story stuff in the world for it, but it would be bad story stuff and would make dragons weaker and less mysterious, and less potent. Anything that puts a dragon in armor is bad. It makes them more like steeds or humans. They are dragons. Elemental beasts to be feared, not creatures that strap on plates of metal to protect themselves from the puny swords of others (or even when facing their own kind it should be a clash of titanic forces that mortals run from).
I would rather the GM just arbitrarily increase the Natural armor bonus to what he wanted it to be than do that. Which I might do when I run (or use advanced mage armor, etc).
Anyway, I could go on and on, but there's not much point in debating with me anyway :) Hopefully I haven't been too obnoxious.
if you have trouble imagining a dragon in platemail, imagine a dragon in padded armor.
It would also be far more realistic if the 10 tonne dragon instantly crushed the puny human in the thin metal sheathing. That doesn't mean it's fun.
Well, a Huge or larger dragon does get a crush attack. Conveniently, 10 tons falls into the Huge size category.
An adult red dragon is huge sized. Its crush damage is 2d8+15, for an average of 24 damage. The average person has (Commoner 1) has 3-4 hit points, while the typical soldier has 6-7 (Warrior 1, 12-13 con). Horses have 15 hit points. Instant death. Of course, the PCs would survive. But they are PCs, who are supposed to be special.
Likewise, the great wyrm red dragon does 4d8 + 24, or an average of 42 damage. Roll a bit higher and it can trigger death from massive damage (which is, granted, an optional rule).
So bigger dragons can instantly crush a puny human. Its just that PCs aren't normal humans.
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Having seen tons of fantasty art were dragons totally wear armor, I find the cries of "I have trouble imagining that" ludicrous. Now where are my Dragonlance novels...
I don't know. I did a google image search for armored dragons, and some of them looked pretty terrifying to me.
Yeah.
Granted, seeing a dragon running around in full plate mail looking like Mecha-Godzilla is a bit ludacris but plate barding is actually not that uncommon...
pretty sure he's having problems visualizing why a dragon would wear armor and not what they look like in armor people.
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Simple, because dragons are not stupid. Additionally, not all dragons just sit in their lair, waiting for adventurers to arrive. Maybe they are very warfare based and on a crusade vs other dragons (like tiamat commanding an Ancient Red to take out some Silvers).
Or maybe it is paranoid? When you life for MILLENIA and have seen other dragons killed off by puny mortals, sometimes you would prefer to take... extra precautions.
Simple, because dragons are not stupid. Additionally, not all dragons just sit in their lair, waiting for adventurers to arrive. Maybe they are very warfare based and on a crusade vs other dragons (like tiamat commanding an Ancient Red to take out some Silvers).
Or maybe it is paranoid? When you life for MILLENIA and have seen other dragons killed off by puny mortals, sometimes you would prefer to take... extra precautions.
sure, they're not stupid, but they're also prideful and cocky to a fault. I image a dragon is more likely to make a Magic Cestus than Armor.
I know this is focusing in on one point and not the large question. But dragons and armor seem impractical. It would be very expensive to make a set of barding for a dragon. Especially since dragons continue to grow as the get older. For the same reason creatures molt, armor is impractical. They could use it for a short while, but then they'd outgrow it and would have to pay to have another entire set of armor made. Rinse and repeat and that's a good chunk of their horde
actually this is a pretty good point.
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I know this is focusing in on one point and not the large question. But dragons and armor seem impractical. It would be very expensive to make a set of barding for a dragon. Especially since dragons continue to grow as the get older. For the same reason creatures molt, armor is impractical. They could use it for a short while, but then they'd outgrow it and would have to pay to have another entire set of armor made. Rinse and repeat and that's a good chunk of their horde
I think you are underestimating how long dragons live and how long the time difference is between age catagories...
sure, they're not stupid, but they're also prideful and cocky to a fault. I image a dragon is more likely to make a Magic Cestus than Armor.Simple, because dragons are not stupid. Additionally, not all dragons just sit in their lair, waiting for adventurers to arrive. Maybe they are very warfare based and on a crusade vs other dragons (like tiamat commanding an Ancient Red to take out some Silvers).
Or maybe it is paranoid? When you life for MILLENIA and have seen other dragons killed off by puny mortals, sometimes you would prefer to take... extra precautions.
Somewhat, but many dragon breeds are more than willing to temper their egotism with logic. Like Blues or Shadows for the evil dragons and Silvers for the good.
Now granted, somethign like a Red Dragon would most certainly be boastful like none other, but the "weaker breeds" would probably not be above wearing armor to give them an edge over their bigger counterparts (or, in the case of the Blue Dragon, because they are stupidly intelligent and cunning and willingto do whatever they need to to get ahead)
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A dragon has managed to survive for as long as it has because it did whatever it had to and was smart enough to know what to do. Do you think that centuries of bigger more powerful dragons tryin to kill you hasn't molded every dragon into a perfect survivalist? If it doesn't use armor it's going to be doing SOMETHING to stay alive. Armor is just one such possibility.
Yes it may or may not be corny but lets face it, it makes sense. Knights used to have chain mail or plate armor for their war mounts so if I decided to go ride my friendly dragon I'm going to give him some plate armor.
As for strength and could be wear the armor and fly,come on. A wizard can do that easy enough with magic so why not a dragon? And with a wingspan like an adult dragon has he could carry such immense loads that armor would be a minor hinderance. The dragon weighs more than the armor ever could and be flies effortlessly.
technically Wingspans have to get proportionally larger due to the square cubed law. same amount of surface area proportional to body size just won't cut it. Airplanes compensate by having bigger jet engines, but if it's just flapping, it's gonna get crazy pretty quickly.
also large dragons have horrible maneuverability, so I don't know what you mean by effortlessly.
technically Wingspans have to get proportionally larger due to the square cubed law. same amount of surface area proportional to body size just won't cut it. Airplanes compensate by having bigger jet engines, but if it's just flapping, it's gonna get crazy pretty quickly.
also large dragons have horrible maneuverability, so I don't know what you mean by effortlessly.
I think the point is that comparatively speaking, the armor is a drop in the bucket of the dragon's overall weight for larger dragons.
I don't think it's much of a big deal, though. How many dragons are actually proficient in heavy armor? Most are simply going to go the mithral chain shirt route, considering it's the most AC they can get made for them with no armor check penalty, thus no penalty to attacks, etc. I severely doubt anything that light is going to have any effect on flight.
I would disagree, but quadrupeds get insane bonuses to carry weight. and who cared if you're wearing armor you're not proficient in when your using magic items and breathing all over people/landing on them?
a large dragon weighs at least a ton. full plate is 50 lbs, so weighs 100 as large non-humanoid armor. so yeah 5% of his weight if he's barely large. this is interesting as it means while the size of a horse, they weigh on average twice as much, you'd think the opposite to be effective fliers.
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I've seen artwork of dragons wearing armor, and while it is an interesting visual, and certainly not outside the realm of you know- magic, and fantasy and all that- said artwork always looks rather like barding. Like something someone put on the dragon, and not something they would (or could) be able to put on themselves.
Does that mean they shouldn't or wouldn't wear it? Not necessarily, obviously, in the real world, knights had to have help to put on their own armor. So not unbelievable that a dragon would have servants to help outfit it.
In fantasy rpgs, it is largely assumed adventurers can outfit and equip their armor alone, without aid, though, and try as I might, I just can't see a dragon's anatomy allowing it to do the same with its own armor.
So, I'd venture to say that the reason we don't see a lot of armored dragons is that they don't generally take the time every day to have their servitors suit them up just on the theory that some pesky adventurers might pick that day to storm their lair.
In certain cases, though, I could see it (dragon knows the adventurers are coming and has time to prepare, etc.)
Dragons have opposable claws and can hold and grasp things in pathfinder. They can use their fore claws just about as well as any humanoid(mechanically anyway). just can't walk around on 2 legs.
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I think dragons are magic.
"How did the dragon put on that armor?"
"Cause magic."
"Ohhhhhh!"
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Suppose it's labelled? I mean, I'd label my potions, so if an ogre killed me, it would then have labelled potions. If there's an ogre witch (which sounds plausible) they could have some understanding of why these things are handy.
The trick might be getting them to stop drinking the things and save them for actual serious fights.
...and now I'm imagining what happens when a whole bunch of ogres get their hands on potions of Fly.
One of my favorite d&d stories was when one character rolled a potion towards an orc and then yelled out, "Oh no! I dropped my potion of fire breathing!"
The next round the orc was in a drugged stupor.
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It's also the fact that they simply don't need it. Between flame breath, their natural armor and the Crush maneuver, a properly run dragon is pretty much unbeatable without it.
Against humans and similar creatures, they don't really need it.
But against another dragon, their flame breath may be totally useless. A dragons attack bonuses are usually high enough to relatively easily hit another dragon of the same size.
Against other dragons (or the rare humanoid that can threaten it, like adventurers), a dragon may very well want armor. Or some other protection.
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I once put spiked leather armor on a shark.
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Monsters in my games have always used magic items if they were smart enough to do so. It just made sense to me.
Not to mention, I've always enjoyed the outraged cry from players when the monster in question drinks a potion, uses a scroll or wand, and I hear across the table, "Hey, he's drinking our potion!" (or whatever).
All players are alike. :-)
I have said that as a player and my players have said that too. The PC motto "What is mine is mine, what is yours is mine."- * -
To reply to RD question, it depend on the enemy and the item.
Humanoid shaped items with unlimited uses in the hand of an humanoid? Always (barring exceptionally stupid creatures or items that aren't useful for them).
For the other kinds of creatures and items, it depend on the situation.
But after all I come from the 1st AD&D edition where you had that table in the DMG to determine what gear had a high level NPC. It was gear meant to be used and the table was divided something like:
sword - other weapons - staff or wand - armor - protective items -scroll - potions - miscellaneous items
with a percentage from 0% to 15% in each category, depending on the character class.
We added extra rolls halving the chance at each roll, with the possibility to make them until you failed the roll in that category.
So a 10th level fighter had a 100% chance of a magical armor or shield, then a roll at 50%, 25% and so on until he failed. Then the items were rolled on the random loot table of the appropriate category.
Duplicated items were back ups and the GM corrected rolls that were too good or too bad.
It was our way to generate the gear of new high level characters, too.
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After all, if the monsters that don't fight intelligently, what is the difference between a TTRPG and a RPG video games? "Oh look, the dragon is engaging the Two-Hand barbarian in melee, because the Barbarian didn't bring a bow..."character: "Oh no, they're going to eat us alive!!!"
monster A: "What? Human Flesh? RAW!?"
monster B: "What does he think we are? Monsters?"
This kind of conversation from monsters only really appears in 8-bit games....
That said.
I tend to always have my monsters, those that it makes sense (to me) that is, utilize their wealth.
My players typically turn around and go the other way as soon as they hear "kobold". Between floor pits, bear traps, dead-drops, shifting walls, and other insidious traps, my players loathed kobold warrens.... when those warrens have entire rooms full of pit traps, with walkways over-head and cubbies in the walls for kobolds to throw alchemist fire, acid, and other such alchemical goodies from? Cloud spells & inhaled/contact poisons are favorites of some warrens.
Just one more reason I threw the CR system out the window. There's no accounting for monster (and thus DM) ingenuity. Also, just looking at the general power of most monsters in the same CR... There's no point to it. Especially when you've got a suped-up-hyper-optimized party that can blow up encounters of well over double their effective party level.
So, yeah, if a dragon regularly wars with other dragons, servants and barding will be common. If an ogre has had enough 'Wet holders' that give him interesting effects, he's going to try random potions in his possession whenever he feels it'll benefit him. And, yes, my kobolds are going to bombard you with tangleburn bags, grenades, alchemist ice, smoke sticks, and poison while you try and clamber out.
Or, in other words... 1/4th CR
was only in 3.5 that magic armor autosized to its wearer, or do i have that backwards?
was only in 3.5 that magic armor autosized to its wearer, or do i have that backwards?
To my knowledge that did not do it either. Otherwise someone could craft normal(medium) sized armor and then put it on. I know a dragon was supposed to be limited by how many suits of armor it could make to a certain size.
I don't know if anybody has mentioned it yet, but one of the enemies in the final installment of Way of the Wicked
For me it depends on the perspective of the story. For my homebrew, I have dragons who rule city-states, and empires. They have minions who craft all sorts of things for them because they are often in conflict with giant kingdoms, immortals dwelling on the earth, and high level PCs.
If this is an AP, I wouldn't necessarily alter an encounter that much as it typically doesn't make sense (unless is were already in the AP).
However, in an AP I'm always trying to use better tactics than what is included to better challenge my group.
I also wouldn't have a problem with an ogre using potions for example, as long as there was a feasible way he learned to do so. For example, is he a minion of someone who showed him what the potion could do?
Neither would I have an issue with monster specific items as part of the treasure. Magical ogre hooks come to mind from one AP. The PCs can still sell the item and use the treasure for what they please.
So... you let the monsters act dumb?
I guess I know why the caster/martial divide is so apparent in my games. My monsters don't let themselves get full attacked (if possible) unless they're mindless. Also any campaign relevant monsters have class levels and thus appropriate WBL.
I'm curious on this one. I "believe" I'm playing monsters intelligently. And I have to add that my group tends to play martials of some sort just because that is what they want. In most AP encounters though, it seems to me that the monster is also not optimizing their damage output unless they close for the full attack. Or if it is a monster that has ranged attacks, they really have a hard time staying away for more than a round or two. Of course this is assuming the monster is not flying, but even then my PCs never forget to have an adequate ranged response.
This may be a discussion for another thread, but I'm just curious on some of the tactics you may be using.
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Because giving them armor takes them outside of their CR range. As an example throwing even a chain shirt on a monster give it +4 AC. A +1 cloak of resistance gives it a boost to all saves. Give it an amulet of might fist or a weapon, and its average attack and damage go up.
If you look at the monster creation chart even boosting AC, attacks, an saves by as small as +1 is enough to warrant a boost to another CR category.
I am not saying it makes someone a bad GM. I am just answering the question, and if a GM runs for an optimized group I actually recommend the monster using the treasure.
Now some monsters such as giants use this treasure to meet their CR ratings, but improving on it still bumps them up a CR.
Hmm. On this point, I may have been calculating CR wrong? At least in my homebrew, I've always used the creatures treasure to add to it's equipment where appropriate, and never adjusted the CR. I thought the monster creation chart was a starting point and appropriate WBL treasure was added after the fact without adjusting CR. I do try to stay within the guidelines for treasure percentages (25% for armor as an example).
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In most settings (or at least a lot of settings), there was a time when dragons ruled the world. The only threat to a dragon then was another dragon, and armor would be as helpful there as it is to a human facing other humans.
Iconically speaking, dragons are hoarders, which is the opposite of investors. Just as unlikely to invest their treasure in equipment as to invest it in a trade company, I imagine (there has to be a reason that those ancient dragon-ruled empires that no longer exist got outcompeted somewhere along the line, right? Too fond of taking the fruits of their subjects' labor and sleeping on them rather than reinvesting them, perhaps?)
I wouldn't be surprised if, for a typical dragon, spending a part of its hoard to commission some armor would be like pulling a tooth for every gold piece.
Not to say there might not be outliers or strangely minded dragons who don't share the usual norms. And also not to say that a dragon couldn't use items that are already part of its hoard. But I do think that, iconically, what treasure a dragon can get its claws on, it keeps, guards, hoards, whereas acquiring a bunch of custom gear involves spending, trading, investing. Antithetical activities.
So... you let the monsters act dumb?
I guess I know why the caster/martial divide is so apparent in my games. My monsters don't let themselves get full attacked (if possible) unless they're mindless. Also any campaign relevant monsters have class levels and thus appropriate WBL.
I'm curious on this one. I "believe" I'm playing monsters intelligently. And I have to add that my group tends to play martials of some sort just because that is what they want. In most AP encounters though, it seems to me that the monster is also not optimizing their damage output unless they close for the full attack. Or if it is a monster that has ranged attacks, they really have a hard time staying away for more than a round or two. Of course this is assuming the monster is not flying, but even then my PCs never forget to have an adequate ranged response.
This may be a discussion for another thread, but I'm just curious on some of the tactics you may be using.
Most standard action spells are way more valuable then getting off a full attack, especially since at the high levels, you will be getting a second spell off with your swift while also moving. For a Dragon, staying in flight with Fickle Winds up and using Maze on the most likely to be a caster + Breath Weapon is way more effective then close for full attack.
The thing is when running a game you need to make it challenging but winable. If the PC's all need to role a 18-20 to hit something they will most likely die. That being said when a group of PC's is slaughtering the goblin village you should make the hobgoblin chief have some extra stuff.
Its a fine line to walk, if its to hard a lot of players wont have fun. Same thing if its too easy.
That said if they run in to something that they are told will kill them, like a glabrazu or huge dragon, and insist on fighting it they diserve what they get.
And a dragon in armor isn't that far fetched. There is a lot of stuff out that has dragons in armor.
Most standard action spells are way more valuable then getting off a full attack, especially since at the high levels, you will be getting a second spell off with your swift while also moving. For a Dragon, staying in flight with Fickle Winds up and using Maze on the most likely to be a caster + Breath Weapon is way more effective then close for full attack.So... you let the monsters act dumb?
I guess I know why the caster/martial divide is so apparent in my games. My monsters don't let themselves get full attacked (if possible) unless they're mindless. Also any campaign relevant monsters have class levels and thus appropriate WBL.
I'm curious on this one. I "believe" I'm playing monsters intelligently. And I have to add that my group tends to play martials of some sort just because that is what they want. In most AP encounters though, it seems to me that the monster is also not optimizing their damage output unless they close for the full attack. Or if it is a monster that has ranged attacks, they really have a hard time staying away for more than a round or two. Of course this is assuming the monster is not flying, but even then my PCs never forget to have an adequate ranged response.
This may be a discussion for another thread, but I'm just curious on some of the tactics you may be using.
Thanks as I'm always looking for tips. Sometimes I wonder if I'm too stuck with old tactics. I also really need to fully read more of the books I have. I overlooked Fickle Winds.
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I have to admit, I gave +5 golden fullplate to a two-headed Wyrm Purple Dragon once. Party was not appreciative overall. But the tin-foil on the 'mini' was pretty cool.
Dragons have opposable claws and can hold and grasp things in pathfinder. They can use their fore claws just about as well as any humanoid(mechanically anyway). just can't walk around on 2 legs.
That's not the anatomical problem I'm talking about. I'm referring to the anatomical difficulties they might have trying to put on armor when their legs/arms are much shorter than the length of their bodies. Plus their wings.
It is much harder to believe a dragon can put on armor without assistance than imagining a humanoid doing the same.