Natan Linggod 327's page

I would like options for classes that deal with or draw from Things From Beyond, that don't just involve tentacles and darkness.

I want truly weird, surreal and mind bending options.

Maybe an Inventor subclass based entirely on esoteric math and numerology, using formulas and equations to make their creations work.

A Bard who taps into the Discordant Wailing of Azathoths Flautists to blur the boundary between dream and reality.

etc

Well, the freely available playtest document gives them a 2nd-level feature, Rune Crafter, which gives them the Magical Crafting feat, even if they lack the prerequisites, and also gives them the formulas for ALL fundamental armor, shield, and weapon runes. Also they don't need a formula book for any rune formula, they just keep it in their heads. At 9th level they then gain a feature that increases their degree of success on any downtime check to craft runes, which is a level beyond what any other class can do on pretty much any kind of check. I would say that playtest Runesmith is quite possibly the Best Class At Crafting Runes, and I don't see any reason why that would need to be changed in the final class.

That's not quite how I read Runic Crafter. To me it sounds like they get only the listed fundamental armour, shield and weapon runes. While that is all the fundamental runes currently, it means if any other fundamental runes are added to the game, the Runesmith doesn't get them.

If my interpretation is wrong, and yours is right, then fantastic! I'd be quite happy with that.

*Also, I got it wrong about shield runes, I missed the bit where they got some fundamental runes for shields.
And, I meant 9th level not 7th, as you pointed out.

By which I mean, can the Runesmith learn Armour and Weapon runes other than the ones given at 2nd and 7th level?

Can they learn and craft, Accessory or Shield runes? It feels strange if they can't.

What about things that aren't called runes but are similar in construction and use, like fulu or missives?

The more I use the Runesmith, the more I'm convinced they shouldn't have a set Repertoire.

After all, they Learn their runes through study and research. Much like Wizards learn spells. They're not gained instinctually like a Sorcerers is.

Obviously they can't simply be fire and forget like spells. Nor would we want them to be.

And permanently having all their runes known all the time is a little OP once they build up a sizable number.

I'm going to try a modification for my next game. I'll have my RSmith gain one Rune permanently memorized, gaining another every 4 levels. At the same time, they have 2 temporarily memorized (ie prepared) gaining another every other level.

They'll also have a book with all their known runes.
I was going to have the temporary runes forgotten after a day, unless refreshed from the book.

I'll let you know how this works out after the next game

A Transmutation sub-class for Wizards, that I think would work is one that focuses on altering living things other than themselves.

I mean, how often is the origin for some horrible abomination of nature "A wizard did it"?

So a subclass of wizard who messes around with blending creatures and creating "The Perfect Servant/Soldier/Guardbeast/Being/etc" would fit the fantasy easily.

I think some subclasses that emphasize runes/symbols from cultural origins other than nordic/gaelic would be good.

Maybe a divine 'engraver' who uses fulu-like paper talismans. ala movie daoist priest.

Expanding on the Runic Tattoo idea : have runic/magic tattoos all over their body, gain some form of extra benefit when using the rune on themselves. like Dayak / Thai tattoos or the Patryns body runes from the Death Gate Cycle.

Maybe some form of 'corrupted' rune magic like those used by Death Knights in Warcraft.

As an aside, the concept of rune speaking, that of each rune being a word, brings the old Power Word (Kill/stun/blah) spells to mind. Imagine a subclass that can only speak runes. "My name is a killing word"-Muad'dib.

You give good examples. However, I still feel that allowing a runesmith to create their own runes shouldn't be something limited to max level.

I feel like it limits the creativity of players. For example, I allow my PC spellcasters to create their own spells (after time/effort/checks/etc), and encourage them to come up with things unique to their character.

Limit them to creating runes commensurate with their power level sure. But entirely deny them the ability until max level and they can only do it once? a bit much I feel.

Not only is it quite lackluster for a max level feat, it's needlessly limiting.

While this feat exists the only way to create new runes is to reach level 20, copy a 4th level (or lower) spell and you only get to do this once in your lifetime.

Rather than this, I think it would be better for the game to have rules that allow players to create their own runes.
Make it cost time, resources and have a chance of failure.

That way you can have runesmiths known for their own custom , signature rune(s). Like wizards can be known for the spells they developed.

What do you think?

Runesmith seems to be one of those classes that everyone has a different idea of what it's class fantasy is.

So going through comics and shows, here's some examples I found :

1. Witch Hat Atelier. Magic users in this world are called witches, and write/scribe symbols to access their magic.

2. Any ninja anime that uses paper talismans with written seals. eg Naruto and their summoning seals, explosive talismans etc

3. Daoist priests from old kungfu/ghost movies that use talismans or seals, written in ink or their own blood. (fulu?)

4. Magic users in many anime that must create glowing complex symbols to cast spells

5. "Alchemists" from Full Metal Alchemist, who must use alchemical circles/symbols.

I'm sure there are others I've forgotten or haven't seen. List them here and let's see if we can build a general class fantasy for the Runesmith

... Lots of intelligent stuff...

Some really good advice there, thank you.

Side note , the anadi seem like such an interesting PC race. Makes me really wish I wasn't so freaked out by spiders. Can't even look at a picture for too long :/

thank you, everyone, for the great advice!

I really appreciate it

I feel my rp of the non human npcs doesn't really show how different they are from humans. I feel like they're just coming across as humans with funny ears and a quirk.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can properly depict the non-human-ness of elves, goblins, and so on?

I was reading through the wiki entry on the Whispering Way and realised the 'sort of necromancy' school we currently have doesn't quite fit their philosophy. ie the creation and promotion of corporeal undead as the ultimate state of being.

It also occurs to me that an organization that old, should have developed it's own school by now. One that better reflects it's way of thinking.

What do you think? Should we have an official Whispering Way school?
Obviously, I can create one for my games but I think an official one would be nice.

Especially more hantu.
If really like to see how you'd stat a hantu tetek.

Yes our monsters are weird

As the topic says, what arcane schools do you think should have been part of the remastered wizard from the get go?

I'm not asking for advice on how to make them myself. Obviously I can homebrew my own. I'm just curious about what the community, and especially Wizard mains, would have added.

I'll go first;

School of Necromancy. Given how a necromancer is such an iconic fantasy wizard,
and how a necromancer (Tar Baphon) has had such a major and lasting effect on Golarion, it seems amazing to me that there isn't a school dedicated to it.
The School of Boundary seems the closest to an undead/death magic focused wizard.

School of Extraplanar Servants. Another iconic image is that of a wizard summoning and binding or bargaining with extraplanar creatures. Again, with so many examples of fiends, genies etc being summoned to great effect in Golarion lore, it's a bit surprising there aren't schools dedicated to it.

What do you think? What schools do you think are missing? Alternatively, what schools have you come up with for your own games?

The big setting books we've seen so far (the Mwangi one and Impossible Lands) don't have that much in the way of class content, which they could have easily justified including.

Like Impossible lands had 2 archetypes and one subclass in it. So I wouldn't expect a lot in terms of "player options" in Lost Omens books.

True. I suppose a psychic specific book would be more likely to carry the class stuff but I can't see them putting one out any time soon, if ever.

... I simply do not see them pushing out an entire book that focuses on a theme that would align with what is being requested nor am I aware of any region (the OTHER way Paizo publishes books rather than by theme) in the setting that has any sort of important or dominant government or collective society of psychics and telekenetecists so that it could slot into a setting/region book. ...

IIRC Vudra is the primary 'home' of psychic power in Golarion. A book about that region could easily include psychic 'versions'/sub classes of base classes.

I feel like you answered your own question really.

You are right, in that the PF2 Kineticist is elementally focused. It draws its power from the elemental planes and as such, its power sources are tied to those planes.

There is no elemental plane of "force" or of "mind" of anything like that.

Its a lore driven decision due to the class being fundamentally and conceptually different from its 1e namesake.

The concept of telekinesis is already captured by the Psychic anyhow!

I sort of feel that if they're going fully in on the elemental thing, they should have renamed the class. Elementalist for example.

Kineticist just says 'psychic power' to me. Even if I didn't know about the old version, just the name implies psychic-ness.

A thought occured to me while trying to sort out my X-Mas game this year.
Why does the Kineticist not include the most basic 'kinesis' of all, Telekinesis?

As far as I'm aware, the ability to move things with your mind showed up in common , modern myths well before the ability to manipulate fire. I could be wrong about that, feel free to correct me.

I realise the current Kineticist is more of an Elementalist, gaining power from the elemental planes. But still, having a class called the Kineticist and not having Telekineses be part of it, seems odd to me.
Maybe they can draw power from the Astral plane (mind)?

What do you think?

I suppose thaumaturge and alchemists are the closest to "using magic inherent in items/materials" thus far.

I would like something that is more craft focused than the thaumaturge though.
I Could just reflavour the inventor as someone mentioned, but the mechanics don't really fit. for eg, would their 'magic inventions' work in an null magic field?

And they leave out the huge variaty of magic items available.

Derry Luttrell and Tony Saunders on Pathfinder Infinite have some highly-rated class expansion supplements. Their next one is Inventors+, which is supposed to include a Magitech class archetype. Not sure how closely it will match what you're looking for, but worth a look once it comes out!

Neat i'll keep an eye out for it thanks

I was wondering why, in a world as magically infused as Golarion, there doesn't seem to be anyone dedicated to improving or innovating magic items.

There are Alchemists to work on magic potions and such but no one really dedicated to developing new weapon and armour runes, magical tools or vehicles and other such wondrous things.

Is there a third party version somewhere? If so, could someone point me in their direction please? I want to add a magical Doc Brown to my NPCs and having an actual class for it would be great if my players want to play one.

Yeah, no idea how it is panning out in practice, but they were pretty adamant in the announcement stream that they wanted to avoid the 1e Medium issue where the ability to switch roles was punished by making the class underperform at every role.

It's funny, I never thought of that as a punishment. I rather enjoyed the "jack of all, master of none" aspect.

Has there been an official/canon replacement for the Medium class in Golarion?

I was rereading the Golarion wiki when I realised that the Medium was integrated into at least some of the lore, such as in Nex.

And what happened to Erasmus the iconic? Did the poor guy get erased from existance?

As the title , so far we've got :

Custodian of Groves and Gardens ; healing and field control.

Impostor in Hidden Places ; debuffs and utiliy.

Stalker in Darkened Boughs; damage (physical) and shapechanging.

Steward of Stone and Fire; aoe damage (fire).

Vanguard of Roaring Waters; position control and utility.

Witness to Ancient Battles; damage (physical) and debuffs.

I think one where general utility is the primary focus might be good.
And one for transport/travel.

And if we're thinking in thematics, a city/urban based spirit might be interesting.

What do you think?

I have been wanting a Binder type class for years. It was my favourite non standard class back in the day. So unique in mechanics and flavour.

I think I would like the Animist more if it was not a full caster.

I feel it would be more interesting if it progressed like a Summoner or Magus , with it's main class functionality coming from the Apparitions granted abilities rather than just a changing list of spells.

A bit like how the Shaman spirits from 1ed worked.

Relevant text: "You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature. {Core Rulebook pg. 562}

"You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature." {Core Rulebook pg. 546}

This means that if eidolons can't activate items, they can't feed people items like potions, elixirs, food, ect as they require an activation action.

Looks like there's going to be a new houserule at my table. :D

I'm going to allow someone to activate a potion/elixir as they drink it even if someone else is pouring it for them.

thanks everyone for the discussion btw

It DOES though, if they can't activate them: there is no action gain between a potion/elixir a your belt and one handed to you if that person has to activate it: it's the feeding that can gain you actions and someone with something in both hands cannot benefit from them if the eidolon can't activate the potion/elixir to feed them.

Hmm I'll have to go scour the rules again. I've always allowed someone to pour a potion into someone elses mouth, regardless if they (the target) have hands free.

That could just be something leftover in my brain from previous systems I'll admit.

" Don't do anything creative" seems to go against the general purpose of imagination gaming imo...

don't do anything game breaking might be a better way to word it. :)

Alchemical items also have activations and aren't magical :)

I know technically (consumable) is an 'activation' but that is problematic in itself.

Yes those both have the [consumable] tag :P

As for the eidolon potion dispenser, afaik nothing RAW stops this anyway. Unless you rule the eidolon can't even pick up and hand a potion to someone , which iirc doesn't count as 'using' it, they can still function as a battlefield vending machine.

For magical/alchemical consumables, they can't use them by themselves. But you can deliver a potion/elixir to an Eidolon.

Now, for non magical equipment, there's an issue in the rules. But I think people tend to allow mundane equipment as otherwise it'd break verisimilitude far too much with ridiculous questions like: Can my Eidolon open a door?

But if you don't know, ask your GM.

I am the GM so I will probably rule as common sense says to me but I was hoping they'd caught and fixed this little weirdness.

Feels weird to me that a potion won't work if it drinks by itself but will work if you feed it to them. *cue anime Ahhhh feeding scene*

I think I'll rule that they can use any mundane item (assuming correct body shape) and any magic item in their hands functions in it's mundane capacity but not magical.

I'm looking for clarification on whether Eidolons can use mundane equipment and/or magical consumables.

I know they can only wear/use magic items with the Eidolon tag BUT does that mean if they try to drink a bit of water it just pours straight through them?
Will a blanket be repelled (like a magnet) if you try to cover an Eidolon with it?

How does an Eidolon use it's skills if it can't use a mundane tool?

Has there been any official clarification?

ok thank you

I'm working on some monsters for the RPGSuperstar this year.*
And I'd like some feedback before I submit them. Can I post a link to my entry here or should I post it in the Advice forum?

Am I even allowed to post the links at all?

Thanks for any clarification in advance.

* Yes I know I'm late, I only just found out about it.

A pair of 2e Tian Xia books have been announced and are drawing on a massive cast of Asian writers to avoid snarls like the old stuff ran into.

oh? I'll have to look that up. If they expand on Minata I'll be really happy

As a speaker of Malaysian Malay, the names of Minatan island 'Atas Pulu & Rendah Pulu' feels a little off.

The grammar/structure (?) doesn't quite work in Bahasa Melayu. Which I realise isn't what Minatans speak as they are from a alien, to us, planet.

Im NOT complaining about it being there btw! I love that our part of the world is being represented. It's just that the ghost of my old BM teacher haunts me whenever I read something similar to BM. :D

Also, might I suggest that the description of Hantu be expanded to include undead because irl it does include ghosts/spirits of the unquiet dead.

Can we please get more lore, adventures and content regarding this part of Golarion? I would absolutely go nuts with joy if I saw a description of Gawai celebrations or an encounter with a Dayang Boris in an adventure!

Note: I do have one complaint though. I object to the description of headhunting as 'vile'. It is no more vile than any other aspect of war. And sarawakians are quite proud of parts of our head hunting heritage.

If an Inventor chooses a weapon normally used as a pair for their invention, does only one of the pair count as the invention?

Or do the pair count as one thing for this purpose? Would they 'share' innovations or split them between them?

Given that was one of the primary reasons for seeking the stone IRL, yes it should definitely do something to extend life beyond the normal age limit.

I don't think there will be "masses of immortal alchemists" because reaching level 20 in the first place is beyond the vast majority of people in the world, even PCs.

Limiting it to working only on the alchemist who made it also protects the Sun Orchid thing, which works on everyone.

OR make it work slightly differently, like maybe it extends life but not youth.

Some more thoughts I had reading through this thread.

What happens if the Eidolon is petrified then dismissed? By moving them far enough apart that the link breaks.
Can the Summoner then function again?

It's a pity the Fabricate spell doesn't exist any more.

That spell was fun with a craft focused mage

I think the Shifter should be it's own class with subclasses depending on what kind of creatures it shifts to.

Just as in PF1 there were variants for Elemental shifters, Fiendish shifters, Dragon shifters and Fey shifters and not just animal based ones.

How about an example that's a little less silly?

Crafting a chair from a chunk of wood.
IRL I can do that in less than a day without powertools.

Unless I want to turn it into some fancy schmancy work of art, then maybe 4 days is right.

And it's not Earn an Income, if I'm making it for myself.

It's easy enough to use the Earn an Income table to work out how long it would take to make to sell and then just use that, but then why not just use those rules for all crafting?

Probably about the same way people got along with germans and japanese after world war 3.

The more affected by germany/japan a country was, the longer the anger/resentment lasts.

BUT this is also affected by other factors like economy, culture, 'victors high' etc.

After about 10 years, Malaysians would look sideways at japanese but otherwise not really care. Koreans on the other hand, many still feel animosity even today; though others especially the younger generation completely don't care and have embraced japanese pop culture.

Germans today are still the butt of jokes about the war and it's been nearly a century; but nobody is particularly resentful of them afaik.

I'd say goblins are the butt of jokes and stereotypes for the most part but other than a few places that were badly affected during the wars, most places don't particularly care about them one way or another

Someone build the dynamite throwing guy from Fist of the North Star

Naw, the scorpion whip is a normal whip with razor blades set along it's length as far as I can tell.

A purely metal whip wouldn't be Light in bulk. I'd guess it to be similar in weight to a Great Sword.

3rd Level seems a bit high for a almost purely RP spell to me.

I really liked the PF1 version where each age category gave a different benefit.

I might bring that back in as a houserule. Not the stat boosts but something reminiscent of the flavour.

One like this https://youtu.be/8LPLFCkUH-Y

I'm thinking one of the size as in the video would have to have a Str minimum requirement to actually use.

probably Alchemist is my favourite so far. I have a thing for crafter types.

second is Ranger. as a 'generic ' adventurer type, its a great chassis.

Investigator looks really interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with it.

Strangely, none of the casters really grab my attention, despite them usually being the ones I gravitate to in most games.

To the guys arguing about how difficult it would be to recreate Kineticists in PF2.

Someones already done it.
https://paizo.com/products/btq024xz?Legendary-Kineticists-Second-Edition

And they do a pretty good job of it too I think.

The whole point of us including an occultism wing of magic was to build in room for the occult classes from 1st edition, such as the psychic, even though we knew we weren't going to be putting them in the Core rules. We might tinker and change how some of those classes work if/when we update to 2nd edition, but turning them into a point-based system like psionics isn't something that's really on the table.

:(

Still, as long as they aren't vancian, I would probably be ok with it. Spell slots for mental power are the biggest immersion breaker for me. Something about having discrete packets of 'ammunition' just clashes so badly with the image of mental power users. I can't think of a single example in fiction of a psychic whose abilities works that way.