Natan Linggod 327's page

If an Inventor chooses a weapon normally used as a pair for their invention, does only one of the pair count as the invention?

Or do the pair count as one thing for this purpose? Would they 'share' innovations or split them between them?

Given that was one of the primary reasons for seeking the stone IRL, yes it should definitely do something to extend life beyond the normal age limit.

I don't think there will be "masses of immortal alchemists" because reaching level 20 in the first place is beyond the vast majority of people in the world, even PCs.

Limiting it to working only on the alchemist who made it also protects the Sun Orchid thing, which works on everyone.

OR make it work slightly differently, like maybe it extends life but not youth.

Some more thoughts I had reading through this thread.

What happens if the Eidolon is petrified then dismissed? By moving them far enough apart that the link breaks.
Can the Summoner then function again?

It's a pity the Fabricate spell doesn't exist any more.

That spell was fun with a craft focused mage

I think the Shifter should be it's own class with subclasses depending on what kind of creatures it shifts to.

Just as in PF1 there were variants for Elemental shifters, Fiendish shifters, Dragon shifters and Fey shifters and not just animal based ones.

How about an example that's a little less silly?

Crafting a chair from a chunk of wood.
IRL I can do that in less than a day without powertools.

Unless I want to turn it into some fancy schmancy work of art, then maybe 4 days is right.

And it's not Earn an Income, if I'm making it for myself.

It's easy enough to use the Earn an Income table to work out how long it would take to make to sell and then just use that, but then why not just use those rules for all crafting?

Probably about the same way people got along with germans and japanese after world war 3.

The more affected by germany/japan a country was, the longer the anger/resentment lasts.

BUT this is also affected by other factors like economy, culture, 'victors high' etc.

After about 10 years, Malaysians would look sideways at japanese but otherwise not really care. Koreans on the other hand, many still feel animosity even today; though others especially the younger generation completely don't care and have embraced japanese pop culture.

Germans today are still the butt of jokes about the war and it's been nearly a century; but nobody is particularly resentful of them afaik.

I'd say goblins are the butt of jokes and stereotypes for the most part but other than a few places that were badly affected during the wars, most places don't particularly care about them one way or another

Someone build the dynamite throwing guy from Fist of the North Star

Naw, the scorpion whip is a normal whip with razor blades set along it's length as far as I can tell.

A purely metal whip wouldn't be Light in bulk. I'd guess it to be similar in weight to a Great Sword.

3rd Level seems a bit high for a almost purely RP spell to me.

I really liked the PF1 version where each age category gave a different benefit.

I might bring that back in as a houserule. Not the stat boosts but something reminiscent of the flavour.

One like this https://youtu.be/8LPLFCkUH-Y

I'm thinking one of the size as in the video would have to have a Str minimum requirement to actually use.

probably Alchemist is my favourite so far. I have a thing for crafter types.

second is Ranger. as a 'generic ' adventurer type, its a great chassis.

Investigator looks really interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with it.

Strangely, none of the casters really grab my attention, despite them usually being the ones I gravitate to in most games.

To the guys arguing about how difficult it would be to recreate Kineticists in PF2.

Someones already done it.
https://paizo.com/products/btq024xz?Legendary-Kineticists-Second-Edition

And they do a pretty good job of it too I think.

The whole point of us including an occultism wing of magic was to build in room for the occult classes from 1st edition, such as the psychic, even though we knew we weren't going to be putting them in the Core rules. We might tinker and change how some of those classes work if/when we update to 2nd edition, but turning them into a point-based system like psionics isn't something that's really on the table.

:(

Still, as long as they aren't vancian, I would probably be ok with it. Spell slots for mental power are the biggest immersion breaker for me. Something about having discrete packets of 'ammunition' just clashes so badly with the image of mental power users. I can't think of a single example in fiction of a psychic whose abilities works that way.

I dislike spell slots in general but it's too ingrained into the system to change now.

I'm hoping that psychics at least, get to be more like how casters are depicted in fiction generally, rather than relying on badly adapted idea from Jack Vance novels.

Points would be my preference. It's straight forward. To do X power use Y points. The Occultists Focus powers worked that way.

But something like the old Kineticist works as well.

Or as someone mentioned, something new using cantrips and focus points.

Also, there are a lot of things people will just KNOW without needing to roll on a Lore skill.

For example, someone in Ustalav is just going to know that the shambling half rotting figure is probably some kind of undead without needing to roll Religion.

Someone wearing fancy robes with icons all over it yelling "I call upon thee my lord!" while casting is most likely some kind of religious caster, Religious Iconography Lore would be needed if you want know which religion.

Please DON'T USE SPELL SLOTS !

The biggest disappointment I felt about PF1s version of Psychics was that they used spell slots.

I mean really, one of the biggest appeals of psionics/psychic classes was that they used a point system.

Now we've got the Focus point system maybe use that as a basis. OK so it's limited to 3 points total, but I'm sure we can come up with something creative to do with that.

thank you all for your replies. Got some good ideas in here.

I'm not worried about the players abusing the flight because it would be around the level where they'd have access to easily available flight anyway.

Also, the player who wants it really just wants a "cool headquarters" rather than a combat platform.

Thanks again, everyone!

Or more accurately, what would the minimum amount of gp value would it cost to create a flying home?

Assuming it's not done by one person alone but by hiring casters, buying materials etc.

A castle would be at the upper end of cost, I would guess, simply because it's enormous. While smaller buildings should cost less.

A discussion with a player about wanting a character who is saving/working towards getting his "dream home". Obviously I don't want to drop this into the game too early, but at the same time I don't want to leave it till the end because I'd like them to actually get to play with it.

Having them deal with annoyed rulers (how do you tax something that isn't taking up ground space?), jealous peers, etc seems like it would be fun.

I always read it as the wizard imbueing part of their own mind into the familiar.
So the animal doesn't actually get any smarter, they instead have a pseudo-mind boosting their abilities.
this is where the link between wizard and familiar comes from.
And why the familiar used to get more intelligent as the wizard leveled up.

special familiars like imps and sprites were already intelligent so the wizard didnt have to boost their minds, just establish a link.

I would like to see it focus on the weapon buffing/arcane pool abilities.

I would like to see variations based on how they buff or summon their weapon.
So standard magus uses arcane power, a mindblade that uses mental/occult power and a phantom blade type that uses spirits/divine power.

I'd like to have the Medium back, but closer to how the 3.5 Binder worked. Weird supernatural abilities and strange spirits. Something that is obviously different from other spellcasters.

The other one is the Kineticist/Psychic. I'd like them both to use the same chassis, specifically the Kineticist. With a bit of the 'feel' of the old Psionicist from old AD&D. Not the mechanics, just the feel.

Channeler like from the Wheel of Time series?
Or AetherWeaver, cos they 'weave' elemental forces?

Just popping in to say, thank you, to everyone contributing to this thread.

Thanks for the answers all

My group and I appreciate it

Never heard of Foundry before. How is it with homebrew? Easy to add?

I've been using roll20 for a while but adding custom classes and houserules is a pain in the backside in it.

So for my groups first PF2 game I thought I'd try something new and hopefully better.

So which virtual tabletops do you think work best? Especially for a group that does a lot of homebrew feats/classes/monsters etc?

I've had a look at Fantasy Grounds and Tabletop Simulator but I don't know anyone with experience with them. Are there any others I should look at?

Any advice would be appreciated!

I've actually done this for 1e. Working out a similar system for 2e right now, so tell me how you think.

I renamed all alignment damage to correspond to weapon runes, so they are now holy, unholy, axiomatic, and anarchic damage. They deal full damage to aligned creatures of the opposite alignment, no damage to aligned creatures of the same alignment, and half to everyone else.

An aligned creature is an outsider from an aligned plane, a divine caster who serves a deity from an aligned plane, or a creature descended from an aligned outsider (eg planar scions and divine sorcerers). Aligned mortals count as the same alignment as their deity or bloodline. All other creatures are considered unaligned.

Clerics and champions still have to follow edicts and anathema or lose powers as appropriate, obviously. There still won't be any serial killers getting divine magic from Shelyn, regardless of alignment system used or lack thereof.

I like it. quick and simple. Seems easy to implement.

Though I'd rename Unholy to Profane or Blasphemous instead. That way it isn't defined by being not-holy and is instead it's own thing. Like you haven't call Anarchic, Un-axiomatic.

If you want to play a game about exploring the dark side of evil people, you're pretty much going to want to get your players explicitly on board with the notion. It's not something that's automatically okay because "you like the idea" or whatever. It's not fundamentally different from if you're changing anything else from the CRB for a given game- you have to let people know and get their consent.

Absolutely. The darker games I've played, and run, have always started with with a pre-game discussion about what would and would not be allowed in the game. And the degree to which it would be described.

I'm getting confused at what's being talked about now.

I don't see anyone defending racism? In or out of the game?

Why would a town that routinely gets attacked by orcs and the only orcs they’ve ever known are “rough and savage humanoids ... surviving primarily by raiding other races” turn to an orc PC they’ve never, ever met for help?

They wouldn't. They might, however, turn to the elf, dwarf and humans accompanying the orc. If the other party members can vouch for the orc, or at least promise to keep him in line, then the town might, reluctantly, put up with him.

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

One unsympathetic act does not a Chaotic Evil character make. A person can well be a Lawful Good person with problematic views. A dwarf who is Lawful Good can very much see goblins/orcs/whatever as pests to be exterminated and retain his LG alignment. After all, he'll still act LG in every other circumstance and towards everyone else.

'Mass murder doesn't make you evil as long as all the people who you murder are people who you chose to murder' is... certainly a take.

I don't know if you honestly misunderstood my comment or are deliberately doing so. I'm going to assume the former.

There is a marked difference between holding a viewpoint and actively n going on a killing spree.

A dwarf who follows Torags tenets will probably be LG. Most of those tenets encourage LG behavior. If said dwarf gets into a situation where he has the choice of allowing an enemy of his people to go free or kill them, and thus protect his people from future evil, and kills said enemy; the dwarf is still LG. That particular act may or may not be lawful or good (depending on the situation), but the dwarfs actions before and after this one act are not instantly and irreversibly negated.

Also take into account that people aren't perfect. An evil person might do good on rare occasions and not change alignment. A lawful person who performs rare acts of unlawfullness does not instantly become chaotic or even neutral.

So you don't find it realistic for a person who has suffered atrocities at the hands of a group of beings, a group of beings that is well known for perpetrating atrocities mind you, to want to wipe them out?

Also, "If you want to play an intolerant vengeance driven character you must be a racist irl" is kind of a ...strong.. statement to make.

The point of a roleplay game, imo, is to play something other than what you are. It might be only slightly different, like a brave heroic daredevil played by an average timid nerd like me, or it might be completely different like a utterly self centered, unsympathetic killer played by someone who cries at anime(also me).

And since this convo seems to have swerved into the subject of alignments, don't forget that alignments aren't expressed in a narrow band. There's plenty of wiggle room for someone to be of a particular alignment but skirting slipping over into another.

One unsympathetic act does not a Chaotic Evil character make. A person can well be a Lawful Good person with problematic views. A dwarf who is Lawful Good can very much see goblins/orcs/whatever as pests to be exterminated and retain his LG alignment. After all, he'll still act LG in every other circumstance and towards everyone else.

Kind of makes me want to play a Goblinslayer type character. Maybe a survivor of the Goblinblood wars or something.

Could be some good rp opportunities there, trying to reconcile their personal experiences of goblins with the 'new, improved' goblins.

Thanks for the advice and for listening to me vent.

Just to clarify for those who were agog at the longevity of the campaign, my group and I started playing D&D way back in October of 1976. Donnie was DM, and he stayed in that spot until his passing (from Leukemia) in early 1981. I took over as DM and have been in the big chair ever since.

Out of the eight original players (Donnie, me, and six others) four are still a part of my group. We lost one to the military, we lost two to college, and we lost the last to unfortunate circumstances (Dan was a cop, and he was shot and killed on duty; quite coincidentally, his death happened on September 11, 2001.) The people who stepped into their shoes were either friends or children of original players, including one of my sons. The youngest of the "new kids" has been with the group since the early 2000s.

The game takes place in my own homebrew campaign world (information for which now fills a literal wall of bookshelves and filing cabinets). The players ran the same characters every week, for about six hours each weekend, from 1981 until their characters got too high a level for it to be feasible, and then switched to new characters who were often children or apprentices or friends of the old ones. They've done that three times now.

In that manner, we've continued the continuity of the campaign since 1981, with older characters showing up as NPCs (for example, one of the local kings used to be a PC paladin, while the sage the group regularly visits was the original party wizard).

Holy smokes mate, your campaign is almost as old as I am! I've had a group that lasted about 10 years or so before life got in the way. I thought having a group for that long was something but to have a group last as long as yours is a hell of an achievement. for all of you.

I would love to hear the kinds of stories that came from such a long running game.

I agree with the others. I don't think converting your current campaign chars is worth doing until there is enough materiel out.

9. Combined with an unknown number of mutagens and a sample of the alchemists dna, it creates the Jäger draught. A humanoid drinking the resulting mix gains the Jäger simple template and a nearly unshakable loyalty to the person whose dna is in the draught.

8. Mixed with some acids and left to infuse under moonlight for a night, creates a flasks worth of liquid so corrosive it will eventually eat through anything.
The acid ignores Hardness and resistance to acid and treats immunity to acid as resistance instead.
The acid deals 1d6 damage per round for up to 1 hour before it denatures. The DC to end the damage early is 30 instead of 15.

It can only be stored safely in a ceramic container coated with a special oil that is made at the same time as the acid.

7. Spending a week massaging a compound of the quicksilver and various oils into a humanoids body, allows the target to permanently alter their gender, heritage and ancestry. They can choose general details (tall, short, dark hair, light skin etc) but not specifics.

Once transformed they radiate transmutation magic for a week after which it becomes their new true form and the magic aura goes away.

3. Combine it with glass and some markings to create a thermometer.

Lol. A 20th level thermometer. It doesn't tell you what the temperature is, it tells the temperature what you want it to be...

*If this is in the wrong forum, please move it*

For something that requires a 20th level feat just to make, what you get out of the Philosopher Stone is kind of meh. It's not bad, just not all that exciting I think.

I mean, you get either a bunch of gold or silver or a elixir of rejuvenation once a month. Nothing to sneeze at to be sure but still a bit bland.

So my thoughts are that these two uses are just the commonly known uses of a Philosophers Stone. That there are many other things that can be done with one should you discover how.

And these other uses just aren't known to the world yet. After all, just how many 20th level Alchemists are there? I can only think of one at the moment, Artorkus Kirran. In fact I think that's the secret of the sun orchid elixir. It's a mixture of the stones quicksilver and sun orchid essence.

So, let's think of what other level appropriate substances the stones quicksilver
can be combined with and what effects it might have.

I'll start :

1. Treating common crystals turns them into diamonds or other precious stones, similar to turning lead into gold.

2. Combining it with sufficient rarefied clays creates a clay golem with greater than normal intelligence.

Don't forget to change the somatic/verbal components to thought/emotion.

When I think of npc wizard, I assume "most of them probably just spend their times crafting items"- it is safe, and it provides a lot of money.

This seems like a great way for a noble to make sure his promising second son is taken care of. Additionally... 8 years of wizard school gets him away from the house long enough for the first son to consolidate power. Thus, you would have the backup heir, but they wouldn't have the time to cause inheritance issues.

The first son wouldn't aim to be a wizard. it would take up too much time to learn... and they wouldn't have time to actually use their knowledge. Experimenting and crafting takes a lot of time from ruling, and they aren't adventurers constantly going into battle.

It is great to RAISE a wizard for your house. No one is going to argue the usefulness of a spellcaster. But personally being a wizard is probably not the most conducive to being a ruler.

But they wouldn't keep leveling as a wizard I think. Or at least most wouldn't. They'd get learn enough have a few useful spells then spend the rest of their career advancing as something else.

Though I suppose that's not possible under PF2's weird multiclass system. Was doable under PF1.

Hmm maybe start as Rogue for the skills then multiclass into Wizard?

If not for the 'entertainer' aspect, a Bard works fantastically. Enough skills to cover a nobles education, some martial/military training, diplomatic skill and the magic needed to at least protect themself against other casters.

Oh I agree that every noble house and well off merchant would want to have a wizard in the family. And again using the real world as an example...

Oho! I like that idea. I'm yoinking that for my games now.

Btw, thank you to everyone replying!

I'm thoroughly enjoying reading everyones point of views!

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

And there is no mention of needing 'talent' to become a wizard anywhere that I can find. Just time, money and education. All of which the upper classes have in abundance.

There is no mention of it because as a PC if you want to become a wizard you become a wizard. Obviously it takes a talent to do it. Do you honestly think if tomorrow medical school or law school was made free that everyone would be Doctors or lawyers? No way. A lot of people would go to school for it and while we would get some great doctors or lawyers out of it, we would end up with many more drop-outs or bad doctors and lawyers. There is no "talent" for either profession but it takes a combination of traits that not everyone possesses.

Back in PF1 this would be a lot of people getting 1 level of doctor(Wizard), then getting the rest of their levels in something else.

And we aren't talking about the average Joe-in-the-street here, but people with the resources to ensure even the least talented of their brood gets an excellent education.

Also, let's say that Wizardry talent is something that's 'inborn' like a Sorcerer. Wouldn't the upperclasses marry with that in mind? After all, political and economic marriages are much more common among them than among the lower classes. Adding in the requirement for marriage being a history of magic talent seems like a no brainer to me.

And remember that magic isn't something new. It's been around since day dot so a lot of the older family lines would already have been marrying for magic talent for centuries.

In fact, given how important magic would realistically be in a world where it actually works, I would expect that NOT having magic talent would be more of a rarity among the upper classes rather than otherwise.

Casting spells requires the talent to do so and takes real effort. It also takes expensive schooling. Not everyone is able or willing to do it.

In real life everyone should be a lawyer and a doctor as both can have powerful impacts on your life. Most people are not either though.

The top 1% of our world (our 'nobility' so to speak) are almost exclusively business people and politicians. Some are also lawyers but few are doctors.

Their children are also almost all trained in business, law and politics so as to take over from their parents. And they are sent to the most expensive, exclusive schools in the world.

Replace 'business, law and politics' with 'arcane magic/wizardry' and there you go.

Although, tbf children of nobility (and rich merchants) would also get training in business, law and politics anyway. The magic would be yet another tool to maintain/increase their wealth, power and influence.

And there is no mention of needing 'talent' to become a wizard anywhere that I can find. Just time, money and education. All of which the upper classes have in abundance.

In PF1 the Negotiator archtype for the Bard was exactly that.

And I had a tiefling Negotiator as an NPC that my players had to deal with occasionally. They had a kind of love hate relationship with him as he was sometimes on their side, sometimes not.

In PF2 I agree with those above that the Bard would be best as a lawyer but I think the Enigma muse works better than the Polymath. After all, learning the secrets and truth of the law is key to using it. Combined with all the memory/recall knowledge stuff an enigma Bard gets, there is no loop hole, obscure precedent or little known law that the Bard could not find. And exploit.

On the other hand, Clerics of Abadar and Asmodeus work really well thematically. Maybe multiclass Bard?