955 posts. Alias of Noireve.


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Metal Sonic wrote:

No, the Fighter is bad at war.

He can't fly to position himself in a better place. Can't use some low-level magic to become immune to arrows. Cannot disable mobs very well because Whirlwind Attack sucks. Cannot mind-control his opponents to fight at his side. Cannot summon extraplanars, more powerful that most mortals, to fight at his side. Cannot transform himself in a more powerful creature.

The Full Casters are the masters of war.

Note how I specifically mentioned how I said we will not look at Full Casters for this precisely BECAUSE i know the answer, if you include them, is "Wizard/Druid/cleric/sorcerer/arcanist/psychic/oracle/shaman/witch"

... dear gid there are a lot of full casters now...

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*vough*cough* extra X feats *cough*cough*

The other thing to remeber is that a lot of crossbows usually had a mechanism to sperd up reloading...

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The thing is, a level 20 fighter can be stopped by something so simple. Even if you give the fighter armor and a sword, a simple level 1 strix commoner with a Bow could kill you. A level 1 should NEVER be able to stop a level 20. Even a naked level 20 fighter is what, a cr 16-17 encounter? That can be stopped by a level 1?

A level 20 caster is impossible to stop ar at level 1

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What other decision does a fighte ebb have other than "i full attack" or "i charge?"...

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This is turning into an amusing thought challenge lol.

Oh and for the Sorc/wiz... you still have school amd bloodline abilties... so even without spells they can kill the Kobold... or you know... familiars...

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Do note how I said Sorcerer...

No matter how good you are or how fast you train... he will always be there ahead you

Lemmy wrote:
Well... He might have an adamantine weapon, so there is that....

I mentioned naked so it is purely a measure of.class abilities vs class abilities. A level 20 should atleast be able yo JUMP that high or something... but a simple pillar is kinda sa

And it depends on what the pillar is mad. Of i guess.

But the point mainly is, the fighter CaN be shut down easy. Want To make.it worse? A Level 1 strix commoner with a short bow...

now im curious to see how long it would takef for him to breal the pillar vs having a.kobold sniping him every round lol

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What I find sad is that if you have a room with nothing but a 10 square foot pillar that is 30 ft tall with a level 1 kobold with a light crossbow and stook A naked level 20 fighter and a naked level 20 sorcerer, the ffighter would actually die... (unless he can climb smooth verticle surfaces...).

The fighter can literally be defeated by something as mundane as a pillar. .. at level 20... THAT is what is sad...

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RDM42 wrote:
Problem with mathematical analysis in this case is that you have to make an awful lot of starting assumptions about a given campaign that may not be true, from what the opponent mix will consist of, to wealth availability, to environmental hazards ... It's somewhat like predicting the weather, it's really hard to get enough data to truly do it in more than general terms. You can't answer that question that definitively for every starting set of assumptions.

Wealth availability is determined by WBL chart...

Anything less hurts the martials EVEN MORE (see any arguement of anything requiring martials yo do something other than hit things i.e. "i got boots of flying ")

For enemies you look at average capabilities for monsters at a given CR. Also you simply look at how many things the Classes are ahut down by. For instance, the list of things that completely ahut down a.caster is significantly smaller than that of a Melee Martial.

Environmental hazards are often not mentioned because casters are so much better at handling them. Bad Weather? Control Weather. Cold/hot? Endure elements. Boulder in thw way? Stone Shape. Need to rest? Rope Trick... the one area martials can DEFINETELY NOT compete in iS out of combat stuff...

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But bookrat!!!! Dont you see! He found the one true way of playing! You are actually badwrongfun for trying to a pury RAW!


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"There is no martial caster disparity"

Tell that to my fetchling sorcerer who puts most stealth rogues to shame... why? Because magic lets him do everything the rogue can but better....

this guy actually looks made for this...

Technically the hit to the Drain X exploits hurts wizards too... not to many wizards with good Cha after all...

Personally I like the Machine smith. It is simply a reflavouring of the Alchemist so mechanically it works but it feels so cool. The flesh wraith from them is also a cool alternate class from the machine smith.

Anzyr wrote:
Alchemist begs to differ... maybe inquisitior as well
While yes, you can build Alchemists and Inquistors to fill many different roles and bring many different abilities to the table, it will never be as many abilities as entirely different classes can bring to the table. Even 2 Alchemists and 2 Inquisitors would be more diverse and able to handle more situations then 4 of each. But if you had to make a well-rounded party of all one class, I agree those would be good classes for it.

I meant 4 alchemists...

You got the Beastmorph/vivisectionist for melee support

Bomber AlcheMist for CC and damage

Mindchemist for knowledge monkey and buff bot (primary infusionist)

And maybe a Crypt Breaker for rogur coverage (trapfinding is nice to have)

Alchemist begs to differ... maybe inquisitior as well

*Insert obligatory martials cant have nice things post*

I wonder if people are forgetting Oradins are still a thing... sure its a 2 level dip but you also get smite...

Or it could be like Nevarra from Dragon Age. The damn near worship death.

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So PFS is forcing Change again? Nice...

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There is no question they still get school powers...

Thesselonian specialist only affects how go about extra spell slots and restrictions.

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Renown needs to be better than A certain primadonna bard archetype ability

bookrat wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Wrath wrote:

Skills not so much. These are skills that they picked up separately from each other. You'd need a very good back story to convince me why all the wizards were specialists in exactly the right combination of skills. (all family like suggested above works though, or from the same school in different classes for example).

This only matters for level 1 right? Level 2 on they can just be like "Wow we need a stealthy guy, why don't you practice that joe"
Or just cast Vanish.

Why not both?

At mid levels the Oracle of The Dark Tapestry is good as well... seeing as they effectively get Wild Shape.

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10 pb? PFFFF, Synthesist Summoner has this :P

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Like making anything but a Str martial... in order to make a Dex martial you have a rediculous chain of hoops you have to go through...

The hing that bugs me is that playing anything but the "one true way" (i.e. str) martial requires so much ring jumping... i mean seriously... and anything that does allow for fun other things (like a defense focused Crane Style or dex peeps) just seems to get errata'd to death.

And the martial types took the biggest hit in the ACG errata while the Shaman Walked away almost unscathed...

So... more potential ammo for all the martial vs caster threads? Cool...

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So I guess wanting to play a MMartial that is not a meathead is badwrongfun

God Wizard is a role... its another name for a controller wizard who "acts as a god" by altering the battle just enough to allow his peons to succeed.

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DrDeth is well known for being one of those "one true path" guys and any who disagree woth him are "playing it wrong.

Not at all! I am perfectly unbiased! Just because pixies are the most amazing things since slice bread isnt our fault :P

Beast Bond Witch i found works REALLY GOOD as a scout. . You dont care if your ffamiliar dies (yay magic jar at will now!) AND with the hex Beast Eyes or whatevs you can constantly bounce from animal to animal to "scout" an area commpletely undetected...

Oh and slumber hex is amazing for eliminating guards silently :p

I feel like the arcanist would be a better choice... quick study is an amazing boon for dealing with unnforseen problems while scouting. .. and maybe black blade for funzies...

Oh, and i picked first worlder over another master summoner due to having the SNA vs another SM. SNA has its uses and the ability to summon thinga like Pugwyp thingues and Unicorns early on really helps on the healing and pixies make AWESOME scouts and such :p

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So a lot of people are talking about "you dont need a fighter, druid works better" and stuff like that. So I am curious, what would you say is the strongest or most well rounded 4 man party.

Basic assumptions:
20 point buy
All paizo material open (if you can find it under paizo on the pfsrd your golden)
Standard WBL
Starting at level 1 then progressing to level 12 (standard PFS progression from what I have seen and the typical levels people seem to play)

So lets have fun!

Personally I believe a Master Summoner, First Worlder, Synthesist Summoner, and Investigator are fairly strong and capable of covering everything. Also, the Investigator has a high int and lots of skill points so he can easily cover the skill monkey and can grab infusion to help buff/ooc heal the summoners.

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Idk, 2 master summoners, 1 first world summoner, and 1 synthesist summoner is pretty tough. ..

My friends Beastbond witch pretty much conpletely over ride another rogue in the party...and she wasnt trying to be a.rgue... its just that bats make good scouts.... and beast bonded...

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Role Playing Game..

Role Playing acting as an adjective to specify the type of game....

So yes... it is a game

Its not just "adding numbers". Its allowing something OTHER than "i full attack " which is another issu many people complain about. You can Literally make a basic bot do eeverything you do in combat now becausr it is so basic. Allowing things like Spring Attack and Vital strike actually allows for som. Dynamic combat and allows for interesting positioning and such

Well out of combat is kind of a seperate beast, I am looking at the issue of many martials being boring because anything oyher than looking like Rock em Sock em robots full attacking is horrid (vital strike just sucks becausr it looks like it should interact with spring attack.,, but does not.).

This would allow mobile fighting and make more dynamic combat

Well in parallel is also the issue of martials being... well... boring.

Having a turn that consists of "i full attack... pass" Is dull. Allowing say "ook Ill do a Spring attack to move, trip the guy with my staff, then as he falls, triggermy felling smash to AoO him and then move toward the other guy" or "I Iajutsu strike with vital strike and cleave" is cool.

So with all the martial debates going on, i was browsing feats and stuff and i started thinking... so many of these feats and class abilities are limited to their own specific action. For example, Vital Strike, Spring Attack, Cleave. Iajutsu Strike, ect. Now I am no guru on how certain things could affect game balance and such but I was wondering, would allowing these abilities to stack be unbalancing or actually good for the game? For instance, if you allowed Cleave, Vital Strike, and spring attack to stack you could do almost a weakened full attack n the go but also hit every adjecent enemy to the main enemy. This may seem powerful but it is rediculously feat intensive (dodge, mobility, spring attack, cleave, vital strike, greater cleave).

By consequence though, it allows the fighters rediculous wall of feats do something actually cool Since he can afford all those feats.

What do you all think? Should they errata or whatever all these abilities to allow them to stack or is it too op?

Ok so I was looking at the sword saint and thought, this looks cool! Then I wondered... just how would yoh make this work...

Iajutsu Strike looks cool but ... I have No.idea how to get it to be effective. So what types of ideas do u guys have? Lets say 20pb with all paizo open for use.

Well when it comes to general discussion, you generally assume RAW because house rules vary from place to place. The one exception is PFS but that is because of the mass proliferation of PFS groups.

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