I think ACP makes sense. You are wearing pounds of metal on your body for hours at a time. It is heavy, no matter how you distribute the weight, and it limits mobility. However I do think that as your training in armor improves, it should reduce your ACP.

The system does look tight, though it seems to be lacking in the customization ive come to love from PF1. Is that the price?

That customization came from years of books being released introducing more classes, subclasses, prestige classes, feats etc. Give 2nd a chance and they will have plenty of options in the future for any kind of character you want to make

Bandw2 wrote:

if you have trouble imagining a dragon in platemail, imagine a dragon in padded armor.

Or in Hide - specifically, fur. Fluffy dragon cuddles!

Bob of Westgate wrote:

I know this is focusing in on one point and not the large question. But dragons and armor seem impractical. It would be very expensive to make a set of barding for a dragon. Especially since dragons continue to grow as the get older. For the same reason creatures molt, armor is impractical. They could use it for a short while, but then they'd outgrow it and would have to pay to have another entire set of armor made. Rinse and repeat and that's a good chunk of their horde

Maybe they enchant it so it always fits? I mean, if bows can be Adaptive, and Wild can be an armour enchantment, "stretch to fit me" could be an armour enchantment too.

It's not like humanoids don't already have the use of it - they effectively get it for free on every other humanoid armour within their size category.

Come to think of it, how about a variant of Wild that just let them polymorph into a humanoid, put on the enchanted armour, and then it's always with them... that way you don't even know they're wearing it.

Humanoids don't have the stretch to fit me. Granted, it's assumed that if you are the same size category you can wear the armor. But I was referring to the fact that dragons keep growing in size catagories. There is no enchantment that I'm aware of in Pathfinder that allows a creature/character to wear armor that is sized for a smaller size catagory

In the right circumstances, I could see the argument for dragons wearing armor. If it knows the PC's are coming and has time to prepare for the encounter, yes. However if they manage to ambush it in it's lair and catch it unprepared, I don't see why it would be wearing armor. You don't see adventurers sitting at home watching middle age ESPN on their magic mirrors in Full Plate. And you especially don't see them at home, in their off time sleeping in heavy armor. Dragons aren't exempt from the sleeping in heavy armor rules.

I know this is focusing in on one point and not the large question. But dragons and armor seem impractical. It would be very expensive to make a set of barding for a dragon. Especially since dragons continue to grow as the get older. For the same reason creatures molt, armor is impractical. They could use it for a short while, but then they'd outgrow it and would have to pay to have another entire set of armor made. Rinse and repeat and that's a good chunk of their horde

I would argue that summoner is the most SAD character you can play. You really don't need any good stats at all. CHA is somewhat important for number of summons per day. But really most your spells are buffs and summons, no saves granted. You could have terrible physical stats and even mediocre CHA and still just stand back, summon your eidolon and let it tear apart your enemies and use your spells to buff it even further or support with more summons and battlefield control like black tentacles(no save)

multiple people keep talking about using SLA's to qualify for the divine feat to get CHA as bonus to saves but that won't work in most cases. Aasimar for example get daylight. A cleric spell, yes, but also a wizard/sorcerer spell. That means that it defaults to a wizard/sorcerer. It's not a divine spell in this case so it's not a SLA that can be used to qualify for the feat. See the FAQ about it below

How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?

The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."

The same rule should apply for all creatures with spell-like abilities, including PC races: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order. Use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine.

Oh and regarding this thread. Bards suck. They have always sucked, and will continue to suck. Gamers 2 is the funniest and most accurate depiction of bards. Check it out, funny stuff

Anzyr wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

If you're doing things at full speed (fling open door, kill enemies, party members use their various healing abilities), you can often 'finish' a room in 5 rounds, which means by level 10 even a haste spell can last for two encounters. (And a party with all those buffs up can usually win battles quickly and not need much healing.)

At that rate a minute-per-level spell lasts for anything up to 20 encounters. Since no-one fights that many encounters in a day, it's really a question of what specific delays the dungeon throws at you.
The Pathfinder Adventure Path dungeons I've seen don't usually force any significant delays on the party.

As for the idea that someone will steal the loot in those ten minutes - if I've planned my dungeon-exploring badly enough that a group of enemies can get into one of the rooms I cleared, I'd rather they stopped to pick through the treasure I left behind than attacked me from the rear while I'm in the middle of fighting something else.

And when you're so low on spells, rages, hit points, etc that you're not sure you can take another encounter, do you go back and take the time to search all the rooms you've been through on your way out of the dungeon? What about when you get to the heart of the dungeon and discover you can't get through the door without the four magic keys that you were supposed to find?

You can move 30ft. and still heal 1d8+1 points of damage per turn (or be passively fast healing with Infernal Healing, which is slightly more gold per HP efficient, but less time to hp efficient). So there's no excuse to not be moving and healing at the same time. When you get to the heart of the dungeon and there's a door that needs 4 magic keys you adamantine weapon your way through the wall. Magic locked doors never work, in TTRPG.

Can you move and rest to recover spells at the same time? Or move and buy more expendable magic items (using gold that you failed to pick up)?...

I don't know where you get the idea that all dungeons are short and don't have complicated puzzles. Most the adventure paths I've played have had some pretty extensive dungeons in them. Ones that you can't just "SWAT" your way through. The Cerulean Knot(maybe mispelled) from Council of thieves. I won't go into details because of spoilers, but that's a complex dungeon with lots of puzzles and doors that you can't just admantine axe your way through. And it's an official Paizo Adventure path. And a fun one too

I had a fun character that I made, but never got to play for a way of the wicked campaign. she was a Halfling summoner with the childlike feat. maxed out bluff and disguise. she was on death row because she'd pretend to be a child who's parents were mugged and lure strangers into the alleys to help her parents and once there her eidolon, or summoned monsters would murder them while she watched enthralled by the gore

I guess the question is, with Pathfinder, why would you want to play 5E at all?

I don't know how optimized or powerful they are, but I find the Stonelord from Advanced Race Guide to have so much flavor to it that I'm itching to play one so bad

I had a fighter that I used a bastard sword. So on his turn he'd shut off shield, two fist his sword and power attack away. then at the end of his turn, he'd reactivate the shield and sword and board when it wasn't his turn

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I played a Battle Oracle before. Skill at arms is a trap. It can be useful, but unless you actually want Full Plate, the armors people generally wear (Mithral Breastplate, Celestial Armor) will be fine. You are really burning a revelation on using a guisarme instead of a longspear, and spending a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency is usually regarded as a poor choice. I would either use a longspear or my claws, medium armor and not take skill at arms.

A battle oracle with skill at arms is not just picking up one weapon. He also has the option to grab a composite longbow.

As an aside: my battle oracle took one level of barbarian for the full martial proficiency, extra movement and the extra boost from rage when she really needs it.

I wouldn't recommend dipping barbarian and taking skill at arms though. The Heavy armor proficiency directly conflicts with the barbarians fast movement ability

Dave Justus wrote:

I always rule that adamantine weapons are forged from adamantine ore (or more likely an alloy with adamantine ore in it.) You can't just reforge an already forged item, you need to start with the raw ore.

How do you repair an adamantine weapon in this scenario?

Find a caster with Make Whole :)

Bags or marbles or caltrops can be useful too. Also just doing creative things with what's available. A good GM will enjoy creativity from the players. Bad guy's standing near a large cactus - can you get that cactus to fall on him? Bad guy standing under a chandelier - can you drop it on him? Bad guy standing on a wooden floor - can you light it on fire?

Careful with fire, though. Lots of things burn, which is totally rad, but also means things can possibly get out of control. Some GMs might even want your character to pay for property damage..

I second the being careful with fire sentiment. Last time I played an alchemist, I burned down two ships I was traveling on.

It's pretty easy to get really high ac for a character with some optimization. Unfortunately high AC, unless like a monk, usually doesn't mean high touch ac and CMD. Use stuff that grapples and targets touch AC. Have the villian set them up to be falsly accused of a crime and have a posse of gunslingers come after them. Watch all that vaunted AC get ignored by their ranged touch attacks.

removing feats from the game essentially takes one of the core, inconic classes, fighters, and makes them completely useless.

As long as you are proficient in the weapon, whether it's because you spent a feat, or have an ioun stone, you would only suffer the -2 for oversized, but not the -4 for nonproficient

Readying the action is a standard action. Taking the readied action is an interrupt. If you ready vs casting, it will apply to a quickened spell just as easily as a standard spell.

Edit: "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. "

That makes sense to me.

I would still argue that it's not a good strategy to base a character around. even if the quickened spell can be interupted, if a wizard sees someone with a bow/crossbow and beats their initiative they can drop the wind wall before they have a chance. Again, this hoses both archers and crossbowmen, but at least the archers can focus on other foes and be more effective then the crossbowmen.

And there's still other decent defenses against the readied disrupting shot. contingency set to go off if you are shot at. There are a number of different spells that would be fairly effective. mirror image, stoneskin, I believe ablative sphere is a viable option as well. I'm sure there's others if I took the time to look.

Bob of Westgate wrote:

I agree with this. Even if there are casters around, at these levels, it's not unreasonable for a wizard to keep a quickened wind wall prepared and drop it as a swift action if he sees anyone readying a ranged weapon. So keeping them back just to disrupt a caster is not a valid strategy.

If the caster cast a Quickened Wind Wall, the Archer is as screwd as the crossbowman. And, does a queickened spell counter a ready action? Not sure about that...

I didn't say it wouldn't screw the archer as well, I said that using a the strategy of readying a action to disrupt a caster at those levels as your main reasoning for making the character is a poor one.

As for if the quickened wind wall would work. I would argue yes, because even with a readied action, firing a crossbow is still a standard action. Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. Swift actions are faster then standard actions.

Doing 1/3 the top damage, using more feats is a trap, plain and simple. I have no idea why pazio hates all ranged but bows, but alas IMO they do. To focus on readied shooting is a trap as well IMO. Waiting to see if anything does what you want gives your opponent the advantage, and if 0 spell casters are around you are even more behind the curve.

I appreciate everyone trying to defend the use of a crossbow but they are plain and simple so far behind a bow it is not funny.

YMMV

I agree with this. Even if there are casters around, at these levels, it's not unreasonable for a wizard to keep a quickened wind wall prepared and drop it as a swift action if he sees anyone readying a ranged weapon. So keeping them back just to disrupt a caster is not a valid strategy.

A trap? No. Different? Yes!

Sure, the archer do more damage per round, but it's not all. Against boss, the crossbowman with the ready action can ruin the life of his casting capacity (concentration check each round, ouch!), and it can be more usefull than trying to gor ''arm race'' and kill it before it charm the archer.

In addition, against monster with huge DR, the crossbow may be better (more damage per attack, so less damage blocked).

So no, it's not a trap IMO(well, for the huge fan of DPR, yes it is, but for the others, not really).

Monster DR is sort of irrelevent due to clustered shot. Archers doing a full attack action are going to out DPR a crossbowman by a fair bit and the DR will have little consequence with clustered shot.

I have to say Dwarf is by far the best race for Monk. Bonus to Wisdom and Con, penalty to your only real dump stat. Bonus to saves vs spell make your already rediculous saves even better and help make you a disgusting caster killer. Their reduced speed is negated by the monks bonus speed. And who doesn't like darkvision. And with feats they can even get a bonus to natural armor, which helps make the decision later on between Amulet of natural armor and Amulet of mighty fists.

ryric wrote:

Shadow Demons are very very tough for CR7. Incorporeal + DR is just a rough combo. Very few parties at that point have a weapon that's both magical and cold iron, and if they do there's probably just one so the demon can easily focus fire. Oh plus it resists or is immune to most energy types as well, and has SR. Just tough at level 7.

My DM was not thinking and had us fight one at 5th level. Talk about brutal.

I've seen more, near party wipes with the shadow demon then any other creatures. And that's with the DM playing nice and not using it's magic jar ability, or them summoning more shadow demons. or just hiding in the shadows and flinging people around with telekinesis

Bob of Westgate wrote:

I've been having a whole lot of fun with a Magus playing the bladebound and kensei archtypes together. I don't know if it's the best optimized use of a Magus as some players would want, but it's fun as hell.

It's a matter of style and preference. I considered going Kensai with my maga, but did not want to give up that much of her magic.

Yeah the reduced casting is a bit of a hit

I've been having a whole lot of fun with a Magus playing the bladebound and kensei archtypes together. I don't know if it's the best optimized use of a Magus as some players would want, but it's fun as hell.

4. Mac the Giant Slayer is a halfling ranger that once slain a hill giant and claimed its shortsword that rivals the size of his own body. He has since enchanted it with impact and further boosted using lead blades to ensure it hits just as hard as a Giant greatsword. He's infamous for cutting down arena fighters with a single blow using Vital Strike.

Official Paizo FAQ updated this and impact/lead blades do not stack. Lead Blades is actually the prerequisite spell for the impact ability.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9qx4

The summoner in my mind supports the eidolon. He buffs, heals or uses control spells to cover its back. If resources are tight he might take a pot shot with a ranged weapon. But mostly i'd get him a wand of enlarge person/another useful buff(s). And use his spells for battlefield control and healing the eidolon.

I agree with this. Your role is best as party buffer and some battlefield control. Let the eidolon do your damage for you. Don't think of it as you are not doing anything. You are delegating and supervising. And if you really want to do something shoot a crossbow..or take gun feats and shoot a gun. Because why the hell not.

well since the eidolon is as powerful as the frontline fighter in the group...just keeping safe and out of the way is really enough(invisible or stealth). But 3/4 PCs don't really run out of spells that much faster than anybody but sorcerers and oracles(divine sorcerers). Yes your spell progression is slower but you get to cast one more spell/day/level, ending up making the difference rather small compared to a cleric or wizard. If the problem is a low char score(meaning no bonus spells)...well that means you already built the PC to be somewhat capable at melee or ranged fighting. If you do have a high char(or even medium) but want to save some spells for emergencies, invest heavily in the Use Magic Device skill, than you'll suck up all the wands and scrolls nobody else wants and can use them instead of spells. Now you may be at a really low level(3 can be frustrating to 3/4 casters), in that case you may only be the eidolon's master and not much more...but next level your gonna be much better and UMD check on a wand is only 15.

UMD on a wand is DC 20, not 15

I would argue that it's not allowed. Paizo clearly doesn't want regular characters using two handed weapons in one hand. Otherwise, why would they give specific archypes, like the titan mauler, abilities like jotungrip, if they intended everyone the abilty to use two handed weapons in one hand

Scary Pokedex

** spoiler omitted **
The idea for the quick draw is to use a quickdraw light wooden/steel shield and a 1-handed weapon. On your turn, stow the shield as a free action, grab the weapon with both hands, go nuts, let go with one hand, redraw the shield as a free action. Now you have the benefits of a shield on their turns and most of the benefits of a 2 handed weapon on yours. This can work to a less-efficient extent by just using a buckler.

Choice of God and Domain is wide open, I had great success running this build as a Desnan with Travel(Exploration), though getting Plant(Growth) is helpful for those intimidates early on.

I didn't bother with Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display, instead I just opted for Blistering Invective.

I was doing a version of the shield juggle with a fighter I was playing. using a bastard sword and a ring of force shield. during my turn I'd dismiss the shield and get some big two handed bastard sword power attacks in, then at the end of my turn, I'd reactivate the ring of force shield as a free action and sword and board when it wasn't my turn

And greasing a enemies holy symbol is really dependent on the DM's play style as to whether the cleric needs to be holding it, or it just needs to be visable. If it just needs to be visable, hanging from a chain from the clerics neck, greasing it won't prevent him from using it to cast spells

Eigengrau wrote:

I had missed the part of the MOVE action! So boosting this up with Metamagics makes it something you should remember to prepare everyday.

Refresh my memory here, If I cast this, can I still cast more spells as standard actions during my turn?

Yeah. That's the whole point behind spells like Snapdragon Fireworks and Flaming Sphere. They take a standard action to cast, but they last more than one round. So on subsequent rounds you can use them with your move action and still have your swift and standard to cast more spells. A typical optimized 11th level wizard is casting like this:

Surprise Round: Cast Heightened Dazing Snapdragon Fireworks as a 5th level spell, Trigger Contingency to cast Mirror Image on self.
Round One: Dazing Fireball, second Firework targets anyone not dazed, Quickened Glitterdust.
Round Two: Cloudkill, third Firework targets anyone not dazed, Quickened Scorching Ray on anything not dead yet, Unseen Servant starts gathering the treasure because the fight is over by now.

I am unfamiliar with Snapdragon Fireworks, what suppliment is it in?

This was my hulk build for a gestalt game, the GM decided after to make the Hulk and NMP character so I built Blade. But with a few simple changes we came up with this. All we realy changed was how fast he could shift or call the eidolon.

were you going to post that build? I'd love to look at it. I'm guessing you used the synthesist to overlay the "Hulk" over Banner

Eigengrau wrote:

Meiliken wrote:

Gregory Connolly wrote:

Human Tattooed Sorcerer (Orc) 1/ Admixture Evoker X is probably the strongest. You want both Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter. You are going to want Toppling Spell, Disruptive Spell, Dazing Spell, Heighten Spell and Quicken Spell by level 6. You will want other spells too of course. Flaming Sphere and Snapdragon Fireworks are good once you have all the metamagic and Dispel Magic is going to become mandatory to clear Shield spells.

Magic Missile is not the strongest spell, you have to optimize pretty hard to stay effective in moderately optimized groups.

That's where metemagics are awesome. Since magic missile is technically a ray, you can Split Ray, and Twin Spell, and Recast, to become a machine gun with magic missile. Then grab a feat to add your casting stat on damage for each missile, and you're golden. Or be a Warmage ;)

I do miss the Warmage class and I'd like to see Pathfinder make a conversion.

Magic Missile never ever was considered a RAY even in DnD in all of its versions. Rays require attack rolls.

It may not say it's a ray, but it's a dart that requires you point your finger at the target, so what would you consider it's type to be? Oddly, it doesn't seem to even give it a type, but the explanation of it seems like a ray. Just because something is Seeking doesn't mean it can't be a ray without an attack roll. I wonder if there is a ruling by a designer or an errata for it. It really does need a type so it can be classified officially.

On a related note, I miss the warmage too, which is why most games I play in combine 3.5 and pathfinder.

They aren't rays. They have never been rays. The answer is in the name itself. Magic MISSILE. as opposed to something like Scorching RAY. I've always pictured them like the Proton Torpedos luke launches from his X-wing. Spheres of pure force energy that streak forth and change trajectory to strike their target

Halfling Barbarian. Because at this point it's clear that the GM is trolling us with stupid s@&&, so I'm going to troll right back. I will name him Bob, and put a thick pile of sequentially numbered character sheets - Bob2, Bob3 etc - on the table. I might even go the extra mile and spiral-back them, so I can rip out a character sheet, ready to play the next Bob.

Don't scoff at the halfling barbarian. I played one in a game and the groups biggest min/maxer scoffed, saying "you can't play a barbarian with a race that penalized strength" the character was super fun and did more damage then anyone else. Because even halfling barbarians are scary.

going single stat, I say summoner all the way. With a five level spell progression the stat increase every four levels will allow them to keep pace and not lose any casting capabilities. As most of their spells are buffs the save dc is less important. and as for combat, their eidolon and/or summons will do most the heavy lifting there. They are the least stat dependent class I can think of.

Stan Lee has outright said in interviews that the Hulk is his take on the Jekyll and Hyde story, and if Doctor Jekyll wasn't a alchemist, I don't know who was.

if you really want the 1d8 sneak attack i recommend playing a catfolk. They have a rogue talent that allows them to do 1d8 dice with their claws while sneak attacking. and it's a talent so you don't have to give up trapfinding

Maybe the dragons fled this part of the world ages ago and are returning now because a bigger threat has been created in the part of the world they fled to. Namely gunpowder. When when are the top of the food chain because you have armor almost no sword can pierce and then a horde of gunslingers suddenly start popping up that can cut through you like soft cheese(dragon touch ac sucks) it's time to go. It's the classic technology overpowering magic. And a great way to introduce firearms into a campaign

I would put my level fifteen barbarian against pretty much any caster and be pretty confident in the outcome

The magus only has 3 swift action abilities, weapon enhancing and both spell recalls. I do see where this could be the spell recall can be useful and take up the same swift action as an arcane armor training. But a little forethought and some planning make that a non issue.

For instance
"I need to regain that shocking grasp I just cast"
2 options
"Regain and cast at 10% asf"
"Regain and attack then cast next round"

I will admit that the quicken metamagic feat does become less appealing. I am playing in society though so I tend not to worry about the +3 and +4 metamagics.

Also a mithral chain shirt even at +2 is still only 5.1k and imparts a +6 armor bonus. Bracers of armor +6 are 36,000. Having the armor also opens up the possibility of any of the useful armor enhancements.

I’ll admit it’s probably a play style choice and definitely depends on your campaign setup. But to me 2 feats for an easy +6 armor bonus at level 4 in society is a no brainer. We don’t power game so I’m sure our acs could be higher but right now our acs range from 15 to 22. This magus (once he catches up) will be setting at the same ac as us or higher and then still have a shield spell.

Actually you are wrong. In addition to those three abilities, over half a dozen of the various magus Arcana's offered to them require a swift action to use.

Bob of Westgate wrote:

I've always found the newer systems 3.0/3.5/pf easy. Of course I played a lot of Palladium and such. Whenever anyone mentions playing an older system, someone spit spits out Thaco like it's a curse and that idea is shut down

Compared to the complexity of 3.X, THAC0 is pretty damned easy. It's just subtraction. Between only TWO numbers, where it's increasingly hard to find ANY roll in d20 that doesn't have at least a half-dozen modifiers slapped on, esepecially as leave the ultra-low levels.

I agree. Never understood why people hated Thaco. It only brings up good memories and I actually have it tattooed on me.

I've always found the newer systems 3.0/3.5/pf easy. Of course I played a lot of Palladium and such. Whenever anyone mentions playing an older system, someone spit spits out Thaco like it's a curse and that idea is shut down

I came across this while working on my buddies magus. he is looking to play a Kensai and low armor was a concern but this setup is just so easy. and with a dervish built Kensai wearing this armor he walks around at 21 ac with no ring or amulet to boost. With his shield spell up hes at 25. and he has a +10 to hit at level 4. this is not godly i know nor min/maxing, but the power of this little set of armor deserved to be mentioned.

ac explanation of 21
+1 mithral chain shirt=5
+5 dex + uncanny defense to cap out dex bonus=6
and of course base 10.

with a 2k ring and a 2k amulet hell quickly be up to a combat ac of 27. in a few levels he can put another +1 on his armor and combat ac of 28 is great for a front line guy.

A lot of the Magus abilities require a swift action to activate

Oh man I frakking loved Palladium. Yes the D20 system is easier. Almost to the point where a lot of fantastic RPG's are ignored because the rules aren't simple enough and people can't be bothered. Remember when gaming required some intelligence. How many of the new generation would have been scared away dealing with Thaco.

Though it has nothing to do with your build, I'd almost take Verdant bloodline. It's not going to buff your summons, but its abilities make it one fun bloodline. Making trip Astros at no risk to yourself is handy. And needing only two hours of sleep means that you're eidolon can use its scout abilities and watch over the party most of the night

Go wizard. Conjurers are one of the safest classes. Like others have said, your summoned beasties take most of the hate. Vanish and invisibility aren't broken by summoning things. Take the teleport school focus. The shift ability is winning. A short range dimension door that doesn't provoke aoo's and is a swift action. And you get quite a few uses per day.

Keen rapier+critting on a spell strike intensified shocking grasp =win