Sacred Geometry


Rules Questions

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Timothy Hanson wrote:

It is a full round action not a one round action, I stand corrected on that. That does make it a bit nicer, though makes Quickening seem like one of the worse metamagic feats to use with it.

It seems like a time sink, but does not seem any more powerful then a metamagic rod to be honest.

Quicken is good for non-spontaneous casters since it basically adds a free metamagic feat to a low level spell without raising the spells action cost.


The loss of Quicken to this cheesecake damages the integrity... However, I lean towards the side of the fence that the trace amounts of LSD remaining disqualify this cheesecake from the not-broken competition!

Edit: Druish suicide bombing terrorists with a penchant for math, anyone?

Edit Edit: It does get a little wonky with Heighten, but since Heighten says it actually increases the spell level, I would personally say that it is unaffected by Sacred Geometry. But that might just be me really wanting this mechanic to work.

Triple Edit!: A thought occurs.... Maybe now the Early Entry Theurge can actually compete with straight clerics or straight wizards? At least on their lower rungs, perhaps? Free metamagic to Cleric OR Wizard spell list?! Cha-ching!

Quadratic Edit!: Speaking of Early Entry Theurge... Arithmancy helps to fix their caster level problem, in any case...


A challenger for worst feat Paizo has ever published?

Is it worse than Antagonize?

:O


Umbral Reaver wrote:

A challenger for worst feat Paizo has ever published?

Is it worse than Antagonize?

:O

Probably not, considering that math-strong people could probably hammer their calculations out within a minute or two, which seems to be the largest gripe here. The increase of time it'll take for those of us with poor math skyllz definitely make it worse, from an out of game stand point. In-world, however... Why doesn't every caster have this?

Antagonize is just... Horrible, in any case.

Maybe this is how Nex managed to build his Uber-Tower that failed to get into Absalom?

Another edit!: I think what really needs to happen, is someone needs to sit down and figure out all the metamagic combos, when they come online, and the odds of success.

Looking at this chart, Dazing is +3. Shenanigans can drop it to, what? +2? Does this really, truly, break that any more than it already was?

My answer would be to allow it in home games myself. I'd just throw more mooks at you to waste your dazing fireballs on.


Ravingdork wrote:

When I first read this upon the arrival of my subscription materials, I too was stunned at the possibilities for power and game slow-down. I too wondered "who on earth wrote this feat?"

This feat appears to be tailor made to troll gaming groups. Imagine a player of a master summoner with two dozen minions on the field trying to do the math for his metamagic'd spells while also playing out the turns for two dozen minions he's summoned onto the battlefield. Every turn would eat up an hour of game time!

My first thought is the exact opposite.

The GM who's sick of the summoner delaying the game writes up an encounter against half a dozen minion level wizards all of whom use this feat. Because payback's a geometer.

My other thought is that it might almost make still and silent worth using: you can use them spontaneously for the slot price they're actually worth.


The way I see it, the feat's OP-ness is balanced by the potential to spend a full round just lose your spell. Quicken with this though...


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bandw2 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

A quickened spell with or without sacred geometry would still be a swift action.

Am I reading it wrong?

Sacred geometry increases the casting time.

Yes, but I also thought Sacred Geometry said that the time is not increased when using Quicken Spell. Quicken Spell says the same thing.

Wouldn't that mean there is no increase?


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

It says applying Quicken negates the increased time... but hrm... I guess that doesn't mean it doesn't also make it a swift action... On third though, I think Quicken abuse might be back on. Thoughts?


I believe the intent of the writer was that it did not increase the casting time to the full round action. On the other hand, it meant that Quicken's effect would not work. Essentially, you're eating +4 levels to get whatever other free metamagic feats you've got room to use on the spell for free.

So... If this were fixed and clarified to be that Heighten actually increases the spell level and increases the 'base spell slot', and Quicken simply negates the time increase whilst not decreasing the casting time either.... Would this feat still be as ridiculously broken?

Again... I think it depends on what metamagic feats come online when. It's a lot better for the +1 levels, good for +2s, but at +3 or higher I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth it..


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Echoing spell.

*leaves*


This and arithmancy appeal to the tinkerer in me. However, doing all that math in the middle of the game is just absolutely nuts.

Though at least with Arithmancy, you can do that ahead of time. But yeah, both are too convoluted to see actual game play. Which is sad, because I was recently looking for ways of applying numerology into my setting.

Though I like the spell Cleromancy. that seems much more my jam.


Numerology + Bones? Doesn't much sound like Math Magic to me.

That said.... Cleromancy is really cool. Assuming you've got no bonuses at level five, you've got 5d4 to roll.

Cleromancy: 5d4 ⇒ (2, 2, 4, 3, 3) = 14

Assuming Preview gives me the same results as when I submit this post, we've got 3 groups

2x 2s
2x 3s
1x 4

Which means I can choose 1 of those groups... the 2s are useless, so that means I could add 4 to a d20 roll within 5 rounds, or 3 to two different d20 rolls in 5 rounds.

......

I like it. This seems like a really fun and thematic spells. I really need to pick this book up now just to see what else they do with it, lol.


The feat doesn't let you do anything that you couldn't before as you must be able to cast spells of their effective level. This does not count as a metamagic feat, so it cannot be taken as a bonus feat.

Ultimately, this feat seems to be great for builds that utilize a lot of metamagics on the same spell, like a magus who would take this on shocking grasp and modify it with empowered and intensified every time. Or even elemental, allowing it to spontaneously convert elements.

Now the real kick is how to find out what two metamagics to pick and how many ranks will autosucceed no matter the combination of numbers.

Let's take Intensified and Empowered, tacked onto shocking grasp we have a 4th level spell. Prime Constants are 31, 37, and 41.

I'm willing to bet there is a number of dice one can roll where the combination is guaranteed to always succeed, someone who has way more time than me will probably do a big table about it.


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Just tried it, assuming I was an 11th level wizard with maxed kn engineering. I assumed I was trying to cast Echoing Beast Shape, which is effectively a sixth-level spell.

Test:

Rolls: 1, 1, 5, 5, 4, 2, 2, 1, 6, 5, 1
I knew I needed 59, 61, or 67.

Two of those are very close to sixty, so within about 5 seconds I decided to get to sixty. Easiest way to do that is 10 * 6. Add two fives to make 10, multiply by six. At this point, I had taken about 15 seconds.

Remaining numbers: 1 1 4 2 2 1 5 1
Currently: (6*(5+5)) = 60

I needed to add one. I eliminated pairs - two ones, two twos.

Remaining numbers: 4 1 5 1
Currently: (6*(5+5)) = 60

Well, I can eliminate all but a single 1 by subtracting 4 and 1 from 5.

Remaining numbers: 4 1 5 1
Final Equation (without the eliminating bits): (6*(5+5))+1 = 61

That works just fine. Echoing beast shape 1 is go.

Total equation: 2-2+1-1+5-4-1+(6*(5+5))+1 = 61

All in all, that took me less than a minute. Granted, I have taken an entire full-year class on speed math and factorization, but if you just get close and then eliminate, time shouldn't be an issue.

-----------------

Personally, if I took this feat I'd probably not put more than 10 ranks in Kn Engineering. My gut says that should be enough for even 9th level spells.

I'd probably take Echoing and Empowered otherwise, since I probably won't take those otherwise and they're both rather handy and versatile.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Pretty sure in reading it that Quicken simply counteracts the bump to full round action, and that you could not actually quicken with this feat.

Its somewhat balanced because it can't go over your highest spell level, but casting ALL of your spells as your highest spell level would be pretty brutally powerful.

If I had a player wanting it, I would definitely house rule some amount of times per day limit to it.


A quickened spell is a swift action. Applying quicken spell to a spell using sacred geometry negates the increased casting time of sacred geometry. It seems pretty clear that a spell quickened with this feat is a swift action.

I think this feat is awesome flavorwise, even if extremely powerful. It's cool that it adds something new to the game. Wizards that control reality through memorized formulas can actually create those formulas. It's just unfortunate that when used by people who are less math-savvy, it can cause a lot of slowdown.

And for what it's worth, I tried solving ~10 level 5 spells with 10 ranks, and ~10 level 8 spells with 15 ranks. I solved the 10 dice ones in about 30 seconds, and the 15 dice ones in 45-60 seconds. I never failed to come up with one of the three possible numbers.

Sovereign Court

I think this feat belongs in Pathfinder Unglued, but I do think it's pretty funny. I'm pretty sure it won't make it into PFS, because it's just obvious how ridiculous it is.

Until I see an actual implementation otherwise though, I think this kind of math is actually easier for humans to perform than it is to devise an algorithm for it. I think it's a lot like counting change; if you work as a bartender for a few weeks you get pretty fast at it.

More and more I actually think Arithmancy is the really busted feat. Because some spells, by virtue of their name, will be a lot easier to bump than others. As in, guaranteed success. It'd be pretty easy to write a script that'll take all the spells in a spell list and sort them by DC. And then you have some spells that might have previously been somewhat balanced against each other, suddenly diverge in power. What if a really good spell turns out to have a very low DC? Also, you get fuss about "is it Summon Monster I or is it Summon Monster 1?" and "is it Greater Teleport or Teleport, Greater?".


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Umbral Reaver wrote:

A challenger for worst feat Paizo has ever published?

Is it worse than Antagonize?

:O

Not when compared to the new Crane Wing. That poor, poor feat...


Ascalaphus wrote:
"is it Greater Teleport or Teleport, Greater?".

Semantics for this one. With Numerology, you simply apply the number to the letter, and add it all together. There is no difference in the result with addition when the order is different.

Sovereign Court

Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
"is it Greater Teleport or Teleport, Greater?".

Semantics for this one. With Numerology, you simply apply the number to the letter, and add it all together. There is no difference in the result with addition when the order is different.

True enough, they didn't assign a value to commas.

By my count, Restoration comes down to DC 15, and Lesser Restoration to DC 19. (Not that CL matters a great deal on these spells, but just to demonstrate the principle.) It's funny how the nominally more powerful spell may be easier to amplify.


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Here's a python script I put together today for determining if the results of a dice roll can be used to make any of the prime constants for an effective spell level: Sacred Geometry Python Script

It has been tested a bit, but not extensively. I am confident enough in it to drop it here though for people to have fun with. It has consistently had a runtime of only a few moments during testing, though I haven't done any complexity analysis of it.

Note, however, that it doesn't remove unnecessary parenthesis. If it doesn't find a solution, the script simply doesn't return anything.

Have fun!


DualJay wrote:

Echoing spell.

*leaves*

Requoting for holy s+*% that is overpowered.

Sovereign Court

I doodled together a short python script for Arithmancy: here.

It expects the spell name as a command-line parameter.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For someone who doesn't know a damn thing about python script...how do I even begin to use it?

There's no buttons or form fields to fill or anything. Just a foreign code.


Honestly, I just made this in Excel and called it a day. But I don't really want to have Excel open just to use a game mechanic.

I think I like what James said. This is better for an NPC than PC. I may have to brainstorm a less convoluted method of doing either of these.


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Ravingdork wrote:

For someone who doesn't know a damn thing about python script...how do I even begin to use it?

There's no buttons or form fields to fill or anything. Just a foreign code.

If you don't want to get python on your machine for this one task, an option is to use an online Python interpreter like this one I just found and executed the script in. Code goes in the left box, hit the arrow, then enter input when prompted.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ooh...awesome...

EDIT: Tested General Spoon's script in the Python interpreter he provided.

First tried 5 numbers with a 3rd-level spells. Near instant success!

Then I tried 10 numbers with a 5th-level spell. Success in ~10 seconds!

Finally, I tried 20 numbers with a 9th-level spell. Crashed the browser 9 times.

I couldn't get Ascalaphus' script to work at all. :(


General Spoon wrote:

Here's a python script I put together today for determining if the results of a dice roll can be used to make any of the prime constants for an effective spell level: Sacred Geometry Python Script

It has been tested a bit, but not extensively. I am confident enough in it to drop it here though for people to have fun with. It has consistently had a runtime of only a few moments during testing, though I haven't done any complexity analysis of it.

Note, however, that it doesn't remove unnecessary parenthesis. If it doesn't find a solution, the script simply doesn't return anything.

Have fun!

Would you give an example of a command line input? I'm not sure exactly what I should be putting in, or how.

Odraude wrote:
Honestly, I just made this in Excel and called it a day. But I don't really want to have Excel open just to use a game mechanic.

How does Excel do it?


Alleran wrote:
Would you give an example of a command line input? I'm not sure exactly what I should be putting in, or how.

5d6 ⇒ (1, 2, 4, 1, 6) = 14

Simply copy-paste everything inside the parentheses (ie, "1, 2, 4, 1, 6").


Ah, I see. I have it working now.

Brilliant.

Still banning this feat for any non-NPC, especially with a script to quickly generate the answer, but brilliant.

Although after every 10-20 seconds, the script (on the Python website, anyway) generates a "Taking too long to respond, do you wish to end it" response for some reason.

Despite that, however, what a fantastic script. Favouriting it for later experimentation.


Alleran wrote:
General Spoon wrote:

Here's a python script I put together today for determining if the results of a dice roll can be used to make any of the prime constants for an effective spell level: Sacred Geometry Python Script

It has been tested a bit, but not extensively. I am confident enough in it to drop it here though for people to have fun with. It has consistently had a runtime of only a few moments during testing, though I haven't done any complexity analysis of it.

Note, however, that it doesn't remove unnecessary parenthesis. If it doesn't find a solution, the script simply doesn't return anything.

Have fun!

Would you give an example of a command line input? I'm not sure exactly what I should be putting in, or how.

The format this script is expecting is "[a, b, c, d...]"

As for crashing the browser with a large input: I have experienced no problems when testing in command line (requires python on your end for this), and much faster speeds than online interpreters.

Scarab Sages

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The Lion Cleric wrote:

The Verdant Peacekeepers?

Greenwar?

The Forest Liberation Front?

Druids for Ethical Treatment for Animals (Shamelessly stolen from World of Warcraft)?

The Forest Liberation Army?

Druids local 704 is not a terrorist organization. Anyone trying to chop down the home of someone that can turn into a 30 foot tall T rex with big sharp pointy teeth, has a friend T rex with big sharp pointy teeth, and can summon in another T rex with big sharp pointy teeth obviously wishes to speed their path along the circle of life, and we're happy to oblidge.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So how do I get it working offline? (Please assume that I know absolutely nothing and may well need to be walked through it.)


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chaoseffect wrote:


Then you're going to love Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh! This feat just makes me so happy.

Why do all 80 kobolds in the room have Egyptian Headdresses?


If cantrips could be done with a prime of 2, what would you do with them (assuming you're capable of ninth level spells)?


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Ravingdork wrote:
So how do I get it working offline? (Please assume that I know absolutely nothing and may well need to be walked through it.)

You will need Python on your machine, which I am assuming is Windows. If it isn't, then download for your OS as appropriate. I suggest version 2.7.8, if only because I use a version of 2.7 when I wrote this. I believe that it should have a setup that handles setup for you when run.

You will also need to save the script as a python file; you can just copy paste the script into a notepad and save it with the ".py" extension. If notepad chops up the indentation, you may need to get a more powerful text editor like Notepad++ to paste into. I am getting a syntactical error when I simply paste it into notepad that would be a pain in the butt to fix manually, but if you paste it into Notepad++ and select all, edit, indent, decrease line indent. This should fix the syntax up right quick.

Again, I am making an assumption that you are using a Windows OS. Open the command prompt, and navigate to the folder containing the python file you just saved. To change directory, the command is "cd X" where X the directory you are moving to. To move up a directory, you can use "cd ..". To see the contents of your current directory, you can use "dir".

I believe that this should be what you need, but if it doesn't work feel free to use Googlefu to muscle past a problem instead of waiting on me.


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Dazing, Echoing,Heightened, Burning Acid Splash.

That's.... four rounds of Dazing from a cantrip.


Beautiful


Ok wow... this thing really is convoluted, because I just now realized you can apply any metamagic at all you want that you have, not just the two (or more) you picked for the feat. It literally doesn't care how many you tack on provided you don't go past a spell level you can cast. I...

[Blue Screen]

Error 404: Balance not found.


9 people marked this as a favorite.
Anzyr wrote:

Ok wow... this thing really is convoluted, because I just now realized you can apply any metamagic at all you want that you have, not just the two (or more) you picked for the feat. It literally doesn't care how many you tack on provided you don't go past a spell level you can cast. I...

[Blue Screen]

Error 404: Balance not found.

B-but martials can put skill ranks in UMD!


Now, imagine just how much worse this is than it appears to be, once you start tallying up all the various ways to lower metamagic costs. You could theoretically end up with a Burning Dazing Echoing Quickened Acid Arrow.


This feat should be called

LOL Really. or Sacred Power Creep (Jump)


9 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

We should make a FAQ thread about this. Here's my proposed draft.

"So about the feat Sacred Geometry: Are you guys f$@*ing serious?"

I think with that question as a base line for the discussion we can get some real developer input about this feat.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:

Ok wow... this thing really is convoluted, because I just now realized you can apply any metamagic at all you want that you have, not just the two (or more) you picked for the feat. It literally doesn't care how many you tack on provided you don't go past a spell level you can cast. I...

[Blue Screen]

Error 404: Balance not found.

you can't blue screen and then get an error message...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bandw2 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Ok wow... this thing really is convoluted, because I just now realized you can apply any metamagic at all you want that you have, not just the two (or more) you picked for the feat. It literally doesn't care how many you tack on provided you don't go past a spell level you can cast. I...

[Blue Screen]

Error 404: Balance not found.

you can't blue screen and then get an error message...

Huh. Well I'm going to blame that on Sacred Geometry.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bandw2 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Ok wow... this thing really is convoluted, because I just now realized you can apply any metamagic at all you want that you have, not just the two (or more) you picked for the feat. It literally doesn't care how many you tack on provided you don't go past a spell level you can cast. I...

[Blue Screen]

Error 404: Balance not found.

you can't blue screen and then get an error message...

The feat broke him so hard, it broke his blue screen. That there is some weapons grade brain breaker.


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Hmmm, current character is a wizard with max ranks in engineering, and I have a semi-OCD habit of manipulating numbers I see to make other numbers. Now I have to ask myself, do I hate my GM enough to take this feat....


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Java Man wrote:
Hmmm, current character is a wizard with max ranks in engineering, and I have a semi-OCD habit of manipulating numbers I see to make other numbers. Now I have to ask myself, do I hate my GM enough to take this feat....

I think the real question is, "does your GM love you enough to not ban you from the table immediately after reading what this feat does"?


. . .


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Java Man wrote:
Hmmm, current character is a wizard with max ranks in engineering, and I have a semi-OCD habit of manipulating numbers I see to make other numbers. Now I have to ask myself, do I hate my GM enough to take this feat....

yes

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