Sacred Geometry


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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry

Just.. wat? Such a weird (and amazing) feat.

Sczarni

So awesome O.o

But it gets really hard when you add level to the spell.

And it encourages to do your math homeworks :)


It doesn't allow you to exceed your usual maximum spell level, though.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 8 people marked this as a favorite.

Who thought this feat was a good idea?


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Wat


Someone needs to math this out and find the spell+metamagic combos that work. We'll see just how broken this is.


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Also, Cantrips. Full-round Action, every-metamagic-you-can-squeeze-in cantrips. That sounds awesome.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

8 people marked this as a favorite.

Whoever called this game Mathfinder was right.


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A drunk mathematician.


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Looks like somebody needs to be stuffed in a locker.


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The metamagician in me is ULTRA HAPPY!

The kid who hated math in school in me is organizing a lynch mob.

Edit: One would have to find the butter zone for the # of d6s rolled... This may be because I sux at math (coasted by with about a B average) and haven't done complex calculations in years... But wouldn't adding more random dice make it harder for you to hit any of the lower level prime constants? 20d6 is a lot of numbers. What if I don't want to Empower Maximize Heighten Quicken Dazing Rime Bouncing my Magic Missile? xD


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

so... as far as i can tell, this gives you 2 metamagic feats, with out actually giving them to you? and they basically only really help a wizard spontaneously upgrade his spell but does not use a higher spell slot? this seems pretty weirdly worded all over.

oh, and you have to do math to produce prime numbers from a bunch of random dice rolls.... this won't get complicated at the table...


This feat is way too complicated. I was sure it was a 3pp feat, then I found out that I was wrong.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 32 people marked this as a favorite.

So, currently I think this is the most poorly balanced Feat ever to be released by Paizo. I mean, I know casters get all the wonderful toys, but do they have to be THIS wonderful?

Lets' break down what the Feat does:

1.) Gives you 2 free Metamagic Feats for free. So it's 3 Feats in one.

2.) Allows you to apply either (or both) of these to a spell, for free.

3.) Allows you to take it MULTIPLE TIMES. It's more bang for your buck than a single Metamagic Feat is by a looooooooong shot.

4.) The only drawback is that you have to do math, which leads us to point 5:

5.) It slows down the game by a buttload because the party Wizard will be stopping to go "So how can I arrange these 2-20 numbers into the proper sequence for me to cast my 100% free Metamagic".

Who wrote this? Why does he have a job? Can I have his job instead?


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On the other hand... Despite the amount of math necessary... I have long wanted to see Sacred Geometry play a role in TTRPGs. It's been a fascinating philosophy to me, and I always wanted to see a party with a Wizard of Words (Scroll Scholar/Scroll Master, in my mind. See: The Paper in Read or Die), and a Geometer (centered around the concepts of Sacred Geometry, with it's math and shapes) in the same party. Oh the banter that could be.....

Slightly off topic, but I'd love to see a Geomancer class, via Final Fantasy Tactics (original/War of the Lions). But that would just be a freaking nightmare to figure out what effects specific terrains would give you, much less how they're spread across 20 levels. <- this brought up thanks to the connection between geometer and geomancer ("Geo").

Then again... This may not be the way for one to put Sacred Geometry into a TTRPG. More math!? That won't slow the game down at all.


Artemis Moonstar wrote:
The Paper in Read or Die

I wanna have that power so bad you don't even know.

But yeah, this feat is just... how is this first-party?


@DominusMegadeus You and me both. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to finagle a Scroll Master/Scroll Scholar to be a viable character (wind up dipping prestige into Cypher Mage and a bit into Pathfinder Savant, I think) to just keep boosting everything having to do with scrolls. Keep defaulting to Dwarf for their favored class bonus applied to Scrolls.

But, yeah, I have no idea how this is first party...

Come to think of it, I may be thinking of the wrong thing with Sacred Geometry. It's been a while since I'd looked it over... Off to the interweb!


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[Blank]

What.

I.

But that's...

Really to any spell?

And its free?

Oh lord really?

Math!?

I don't even.

This is as coherent as my response to this can be.


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DominusMegadeus wrote:
But yeah, this feat is just... how is this first-party?

Well legally it's technically 3rd party since WotC still owns the OGL. If you mean how does it have a Paizo logo on it...unlike most 3rd party publishers, Paizo doesn't have anything resembling quality control.


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I do like how it keys off the # of ranks in a skill. That's something I'd like to see more often.

...Granted, that's something I'd like to see more often in rogue talents, but still.


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....

Personally? This feat would have made a better Wizard archetype. Seriously. How can you sit there and NOT tell me that it's perfectly thematic of a mathematics-oriented wizard?

The only balancing factors of this feat are: the random factor that may or may not let you hit those 3 primes; the fact that if you fail, you lose the spell anyways; that it takes a full round action unless you sac 4 levels to keep it a standard.

I'd still probably use it on a sorcerer. Actually, I'd use it on an Oracle. I'd like to point out they only call out "Sorcerers and Bards" as increasing the casting time two steps, rather than all "spontaneous casters". So...

Enjoy your 2 free metamagic feats, Oracle!


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Arachnofiend wrote:

I do like how it keys off the # of ranks in a skill. That's something I'd like to see more often.

...Granted, that's something I'd like to see more often in rogue talents, but still.

Yes, in that aspect it's actually really cool, more numbers should theoretically make getting a target prime number easier. But... wow. When do my martials get to use my ranks in Perception to do math and get True Seeing or my acrobatics to gain a miss chance?


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Anzyr wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

I do like how it keys off the # of ranks in a skill. That's something I'd like to see more often.

...Granted, that's something I'd like to see more often in rogue talents, but still.

Yes, in that aspect it's actually really cool, more numbers should theoretically make getting a target prime number easier. But... wow. When do my martials get to use my ranks in Perception to do math and get True Seeing or my acrobatics to gain a miss chance?

You sir, have just given me something to work on to homebrew. +1 for you and arachnofiend.

Hey guys! I just found the second feat of the tree for this thing!:

It bumps the dice!

Makes me wonder how this works with Spell Perfection and/or Spontaneous Metafocus.

Sczarni

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I think we should make a martial version of it, to give physically stronger players a boost when playing martial characters.

Quote:

Might Makes Right

Prerequisite : BAB +6, No ability to cast spells.
Benefit(s): Your physical prowess is enough to convince other people that you can kick butt.

Whenever you make an attack and miss, you can punch one of the casters at your table. Each punch you make increases the attack bonus of the attack by 1 to a maximum of +10. If you hit, you may choose to continue punching the caster for a stacking bonus of +2 (to a maximum of +20).

Special: if you throw a piece of furniture at the GM, the attack is considered an automatic crit with a modifier depending on the piece of furniture: a chair is a x2 modifier, a table is a x3 and a wardrobe is a x4. If you knock the GM out, the attack is resolved for maximum damage.

Example: Amiri, played by Bob, is swinging her sword at an orc. The attack misses. Bob is outraged and knocks the wardrobe over Phil, the DM, knocking him unconcious. The Large Bastard Sword deals 16 (maximum dice damage+1.5 strength modifier damage, multiplied by 4 for knocking Phil unconcious. The orc is dead, and Mary, the player of Ezren, is now running out of the room and phoning the police.

I think that is balanced, though I'm open to suggestions.


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The Lion Cleric wrote:
Stuff

Sounds like it belongs in Pathfinder Unleashed. Where's the feat that if you tear up your PHB, you win the game?

(blatant TCG reference)


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I love this feat because it's so absurd.

I hate this feat because it's so absurd.

Sczarni

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If there is one, I'm getting it. There should also be a defensive version of this one, probably involving dodging actual bullets in order to make gunslingers not attack your touch AC and submitting to waterboarding in order to be able to reroll that Will save (before the result is revealed of course).

As for the actual published feat, with 30 seconds or 1 minute time limit, and only being able to use the Metamagic Feats you get when using the feat, it would be tolerable, probably to the point that I'd allow it. Also, no calculators allowed, obviously.


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Johnico wrote:

I love this feat because it's so absurd.

I hate this feat because it's so absurd.

Then you're going to love Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh! This feat just makes me so happy.


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Caster martial imbalance is just in your heads! balanced feats are released like this all the time

Sczarni

chaoseffect wrote:
Johnico wrote:

I love this feat because it's so absurd.

I hate this feat because it's so absurd.

Then you're going to love Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh! This feat just makes me so happy.

Well, NPC feats do exist, and it's a decent surprise for a low level party fighting mummies.

It's still not worthy of top 10 worse feats, though.


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The Lion Cleric wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Johnico wrote:

I love this feat because it's so absurd.

I hate this feat because it's so absurd.

Then you're going to love Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh! This feat just makes me so happy.

Well, NPC feats do exist, and it's a decent surprise for a low level party fighting mummies.

It's still not worthy of top 10 worse feats, though.

I'd actually consider taking this on a Reincarnated Druid. For the lulz.


That pharaoh thing is pretty cool. Who needs a staff to retributive strike!? I've always like "If I die I'm taking you with me!"... A contingency, delayed blast fireball or explosive runes, possibly Detonate, is always fun. That pharaoh one makes it so you can't go undead though, which I like....

Seriously. Anyone have any idea how Sacred Geometry would work with Spell Perfection/Spontaneous Metafocus (assuming Spontaneous Metafocus applies to sorcs and bards, rather than the 'lost to spontaneously cast this' stuff).

Sczarni

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Artemis Moonstar wrote:

That pharaoh thing is pretty cool. Who needs a staff to retributive strike!? I've always like "If I die I'm taking you with me!"... A contingency, delayed blast fireball or explosive runes, possibly Detonate, is always fun. That pharaoh one makes it so you can't go undead though, which I like....

Seriously. Anyone have any idea how Sacred Geometry would work with Spell Perfection/Spontaneous Metafocus (assuming Spontaneous Metafocus applies to sorcs and bards, rather than the 'lost to spontaneously cast this' stuff).

I'd think Spontaneous Metafocus would work in the normal way, while Spell perfection would probably let you not increase the Prime Number Table as long as you don't reach lvl 9+ spells.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
chaoseffect wrote:
Johnico wrote:

I love this feat because it's so absurd.

I hate this feat because it's so absurd.

Then you're going to love Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh! This feat just makes me so happy.

10/10 would make multiple characters with it, if i ever played anywhere near an Egyptian setting.


This feat is completely crazy.

He either does something completely broken (like a quickened, empowered fireball, plus empowered fireball every turn) or nothing because he can't find the solution.

Either way the game grinds to a halt until he finds the solution (or doesn't).

All we need now is a math tool, you enter your individual numbers and the tool gives you the answer (if there is any) a split second later.

You think casters are OP now? Think again.

1 Feat gives you:

2 free meta magic feats + the ability to cast spells with any meta magic feats attached without having to increase the spell slot expanded.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

they should add this as a requirement to tee feat, after the dies are rolled, you have 10 seconds.


I like how they put in the line about not being able to go over 9th level with the increased spell level.

As if it makes this feat okay.

Sczarni

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Bandw2 wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Johnico wrote:

I love this feat because it's so absurd.

I hate this feat because it's so absurd.

Then you're going to love Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh! This feat just makes me so happy.
10/10 would make multiple characters with it, if i ever played anywhere near an Egyptian setting.

Please, already thinking of combining it with Necklace of Fireballs and doing some suicide bombings. Because seriously, how awesome is that on a reincarnated druid.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
The Lion Cleric wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Johnico wrote:

I love this feat because it's so absurd.

I hate this feat because it's so absurd.

Then you're going to love Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh! This feat just makes me so happy.
10/10 would make multiple characters with it, if i ever played anywhere near an Egyptian setting.
Please, already thinking of combining it with Necklace of Fireballs and doing some suicide bombings. Because seriously, how awesome is that on a reincarnated druid.

Treehugger suicide bombings? AVALANCHE would be proud.


The Lion Cleric wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Johnico wrote:

I love this feat because it's so absurd.

I hate this feat because it's so absurd.

Then you're going to love Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh! This feat just makes me so happy.
10/10 would make multiple characters with it, if i ever played anywhere near an Egyptian setting.
Please, already thinking of combining it with Necklace of Fireballs and doing some suicide bombings. Because seriously, how awesome is that on a reincarnated druid.

Makes me wish Druids got Contingency and something like Detonate. This is the point in time where you start doing "Original Spell Research" and make your GM regret letting you put Contingency on your druid list, along with some other big-blasty spell.

Sczarni

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Are we attempting to turn this thread from discussion about an overpowered feat into a druid terrorist recruitment thread?

Because I'm down for that, frankly.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

.... Yes.

In my games, I am so introducing druid terrorists. They shall all be Elves... With dreadlocks and those knit Jamaican styled beanies, and speak like stoned 70s hippie rejects! And they shall be strangely obsessed with fluffy little seals!


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I only wish the damage on Troth scaled more effectively with level...

Sczarni

The Verdant Peacekeepers?

Greenwar?

The Forest Liberation Front?

Druids for Ethical Treatment for Animals (Shamelessly stolen from World of Warcraft)?

The Forest Liberation Army?


I've been practicing die rolls several times with the premise of using 8 ranks in Knowledge (Engineering) casting an effective 8th level spell. I haven't missed it yet after 10 attempts. It's extremely easy to multiply your way up to the number you need and then add subtract back and forth until you reach your goal. The more 1's you roll the better of course, because add 1, subtract 1, multiply by 1 makes it easy to make adjustments. And it gets all the easier as you get more ranks.

I'm imagining casting a Quickened Empowered Mirror Image. Or an Empowered Summon Monster. Or even a quickened empowered Magic Missile..

Quicken is essential; it means you can make a Sacred Geometry attempt and only ever risk losing you swift action, not your standard action.(...and free freaking Quicken. Sweet.) Empower just seemed like a flexible metamagic that can be applied to a lot of spells. Other good targets might be Persistent, Selective, Extend, Maximize, Dazing... On and on. And taking this feat more than once is worth it!

In other news, wildly overpowered feat that's somewhere between inspiring and infuriating.


When this gets locked for going off topic, or we all get B#($^-slapped for derailing it... I'm all for a new thread to flesh these guys out... Funny, you'd never have expected the Druish to be so radical.

I throw my hat in for Greenwar or D.E.T.A. As long as DETA does more than run up to someone and throw a bucket of sap on them... Because that wouldn't work all that well depending on how cold it is.

Edit: Have you tried it with Calculating Mind gained at 5th level, Chort? Using d8s instead of d6s, or in any combination of the two.

Sczarni

Starting the new thread about druid terrorists ASAP.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm not sure which sub-forum to put it in, so I'll let someone with more posting experience do it instead.

Don't go clubbing baby bugbears.


I have no idea where it would go myself... General discussion could go about fleshing it out... But Advice would fit for the mechanical aspects and fact that there would be advice... Hmm....

Would it be in bad taste to give them a particularly militaristic leader that happens to have very angry-sounding and animated rallies from a cave?


Artemis Moonstar wrote:

When this gets locked for going off topic, or we all get B#($^-slapped for derailing it... I'm all for a new thread to flesh these guys out... Funny, you'd never have expected the Druish to be so radical.

I throw my hat in for Greenwar or D.E.T.A. As long as DETA does more than run up to someone and throw a bucket of sap on them... Because that wouldn't work all that well depending on how cold it is.

Edit: Have you tried it with Calculating Mind gained at 5th level, Chort? Using d8s instead of d6s, or in any combination of the two.

...I would guess d8's would make this feat more difficult to use, strangely enough? As you get up in levels, you'll be glad to roll several 1's and d8s decrease your chance of that.


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The Chort wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:

When this gets locked for going off topic, or we all get B#($^-slapped for derailing it... I'm all for a new thread to flesh these guys out... Funny, you'd never have expected the Druish to be so radical.

I throw my hat in for Greenwar or D.E.T.A. As long as DETA does more than run up to someone and throw a bucket of sap on them... Because that wouldn't work all that well depending on how cold it is.

Edit: Have you tried it with Calculating Mind gained at 5th level, Chort? Using d8s instead of d6s, or in any combination of the two.

...I would guess d8's would make this feat more difficult to use, strangely enough? As you get up in levels, you'll be glad to roll several 1's and d8s decrease your chance of that.

I suspected as much... The feat wouldn't be so horribly over powered, I think, if it scaled the dice size as you increased in level. Make it harder for you to hit those primes....

And are we sure that's how it works with Quicken? It says it negates the increased casting time, and it doesn't say it negates Quicken's decrease either... But perhaps it was intended to?

Edit: Oh look! Numerology!

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