Sacred Geometry


Rules Questions

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Mr Feeny wrote:
If your GM allows it, there is a calculator on Android that does a pretty good job of quickly finding solutions to sacred geometry.

Is there a version of this for a plain, ol' Windows PC? :P


Emo Duck wrote:
Mr Feeny wrote:
If your GM allows it, there is a calculator on Android that does a pretty good job of quickly finding solutions to sacred geometry.
Is there a version of this for a plain, ol' Windows PC? :P

Eclispe android emulator.

Scarab Sages

DominusMegadeus wrote:
Why would you ever use metamagic normally once you had Sacred Geometry?

Quicken is a good example, if your quicken a spell as part of sacred geometry it reduces the casting time from full round to standard action but if you quicken a spell normally it becomes a swift action allowing you to cast two a round.


Senko wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Why would you ever use metamagic normally once you had Sacred Geometry?
Quicken is a good example, if your quicken a spell as part of sacred geometry it reduces the casting time from full round to standard action but if you quicken a spell normally it becomes a swift action allowing you to cast two a round.

Also, you need 3 Metamagic feats to qualify for Spell Perfection.


Both good points.


swoosh wrote:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry

Just.. wat? Such a weird (and amazing) feat.

I can see people hating this feat because combat takes forever already.

Scarab Sages

Mavrickindigo wrote:
swoosh wrote:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry

Just.. wat? Such a weird (and amazing) feat.

I can see people hating this feat because combat takes forever already.

Snicker now I'm picturing the following scene.

Inititiative is rolled.
GM gets out 20 d6.
Fighter: "errrrr just what is he hitting me with?"
GM: "Ray of Frost but I need to see if it goes off." starts calculating.

multiclassed character with 1 level of wizard and 20 ranks of engineering.

Dark Archive

Is Sacred Geometry np complete?


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I consider it na complete.


Theres an easy way to roll and calculate a Sacred Geometry result in 10-15 seconds:

http://d20toolkit.com/tools/sg/sacredgeo.php

If that's the only problem you have with the feat, bogging down games, then it really isn't isn't an issue.

It is incredibly powerful and versatile, though I don't think it's broken. You still have to be able to cast the modified spell level with the applied metamagic feats.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Azazel Rahl'Nura wrote:
Theres an easy way to roll and calculate a Sacred Geometry result in 10-15 seconds:

<obligatory reference to necromancy>

S/B possible to do it in your head in 10-15 seconds... or just memorize the few cases where it DOESN'T work.

Quote:
It is incredibly powerful and versatile, though I don't think it's broken.

A feat that allowed you to learn/apply TWO metamagic feats, each time you take it, would be broken.

A feat which allowed you to almost always (and just always at higher levels) apply multiple metamagic effects with no level increase so long as you max the Knowledge (engineering) skill would be broken.

This feat doing both those things is RIDICULOUSLY broken.


Does anyone have actual table experience with this feat? Or just theory?

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Java Man wrote:
Does anyone have actual table experience with this feat? Or just theory?

In science a theory is an explanation which fits all the known facts and has withstood all testing to date. In more general usage it is ANY explanation (tested/fitting the facts or not).

Neither applies to this case.

The flaw in Sacred Geometry's workings is simply mathematical observation.

So long as you take a rank of Knowledge (engineering) each level you can only fail if you roll all 1s or occasionally mostly 1s and a couple 2s... and that only at lower levels. Eventually you can hit the targets for any spell level you can cast even if you DO roll all 1s.

If we assume that the intent was for the feat to work ~50% of the time then we'd need to decrease the dice used from d6s to d3s and increase the target values for higher level spells.


The wording is a little vague to me. When it says "select two metamagic feats you do not yet have", does that mean you get to use them immediately or do you have to wait to use Sacred Geometry until after you have taken those two other feats?

The former makes this far too easy for a player good at math or using a computerized device. The latter interpretation makes it seem more sensible.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Does anyone have actual table experience with this feat? Or just theory?

In science a theory is an explanation which fits all the known facts and has withstood all testing to date. In more general usage it is ANY explanation (tested/fitting the facts or not).

Neither applies to this case.

The flaw in Sacred Geometry's workings is simply mathematical observation.

So long as you take a rank of Knowledge (engineering) each level you can only fail if you roll all 1s or occasionally mostly 1s and a couple 2s... and that only at lower levels. Eventually you can hit the targets for any spell level you can cast even if you DO roll all 1s.

If we assume that the intent was for the feat to work ~50% of the time then we'd need to decrease the dice used from d6s to d3s and increase the target values for higher level spells.

Oh, I am aware of my misuse of theory, or rather my usage of the common misconception of it. My curiousity is how it has actually worked out at a table. I completely agree that it is broken as all get out, but wonder about actual experiences.

Sovereign Court

Java Man wrote:
Does anyone have actual table experience with this feat? Or just theory?

I have played a Diviner Wizard for 2 levels now (level 5 & 6 in the second adventure of the Serpents Skull AP) who has taken Sacred Geometry to get free Empower Spell on his Magic Missiles and free Extend Spell on his lower-level buff spells for allies.

I have been using a calculator, and I have yet to fail to be able to use it.

I have found that the full-round action means I have not used it all the time - sometimes I have needed to move - but it has certainly powered up my lower level spell slots and it is definitely too good to be a single feat.

I am self-limiting and avoiding taking it again for Echoing Spell and Quicken Spell...

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Java Man wrote:
I completely agree that it is broken as all get out, but wonder about actual experiences.

I don't know, I've asked every GM I have had since then (and that number isn't 0, 1, or 2. It's several to many GMs) and 100% of then gave me something along the lines of "your joking right?"


The feat is fine, guys!


Java Man wrote:
Does anyone have actual table experience with this feat? Or just theory?

I've been playing with it in a Skull and Shackles game as a Diviner wizard, and I have not noticeably slowed anything down.

A player of mine in Second Darkness, that I just recently finished running, used it quite often and never slowed us down.

We all are good at math, though, so that probably distorts how slow this feat could be.


I don't think they were asking about how long it took, but of how OP it was.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:
I don't think they were asking about how long it took, but of how OP it was.

+1

Especially considering there are calculators to compute it for you in 1 second.


What does the feat do now. Sorry, I'm (fashionably) late to the party. :-)


It makes GMs throw heavy books at players.


Java Man wrote:
Does anyone have actual table experience with this feat? Or just theory?

I'm currently using it in a campaign as a ‪6th level Svirfneblin Dweomerden Exploiter Wizard‬‪‬. I focus my spells in battlefield Control, Utility, Summoning, and a few mass buff spells. No one seems to have an issue with Svirfneblin either.

I'm currently using Sacred Geometry(Selective Spell, Persistent Spell)

No one has complained about it. We allow all pathfinder material, until you abuse a given feat, class, spell, ect. Since my focus isn't on outshining the rest of the party, but on enhancing the party, utility, and limiting enemy actions my party hasn't even asked about the feat.


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James Risner wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
I don't think they were asking about how long it took, but of how OP it was.

+1

Especially considering there are calculators to compute it for you in 1 second.

If you're okay at basic math, it's probably faster to just do it than to type the numbers in.

Conceptually, the problem with the feat lies in the intent. Either there's supposed to be a limitation based on the roll and the math or there isn't. If there isn't, then having it is pointless. If there is then it doesn't work because making the roll is trivial. If it's supposed to only work for players who are clever at math, then it's bad design.

Just make the feat, slap a skill tax on it and it's functionally equivalent without the silly hassle.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I suspect Sacred Geometry was supposed to be more like Numerological Evocation.

In that it isn't ever a good thing, but there may have been a failure with the math on Sacred.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Though I haven't gotten high enough level yet, I plan on taking it with my shabti psychic in a Hell's Vengeance game.


I have the sudden urge to create an Arcane Archer utilizing Simple Sacred Geometry on his arrows. After shaming himself and his clan for being forced to kill his brother, he is on a quest to redeem himself and honor his brother's death. He'd enter the prestige class through being a dragon bloodline sorcerer.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
James Risner wrote:

I suspect Sacred Geometry was supposed to be more like Numerological Evocation.

In that it isn't ever a good thing, but there may have been a failure with the math on Sacred.

What I always found odd was that they left out zero level spells (e.g. a cantrip with one or more metamagic feats that don't adjust spell level)... and the first prime constant.

Though, that latter was probably an effort to avoid making it 'too easy'... as any combination of 3d6 can match one of 2, 3, or 5 via addition/subtraction/multiplication/division.

So they presumably did SOME math testing of the concept... just not enough.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Texas Snyper wrote:
I have the sudden urge to create an Arcane Archer utilizing Simple Sacred Geometry on his arrows. After shaming himself and his clan for being forced to kill his brother, he is on a quest to redeem himself and honor his brother's death. He'd enter the prestige class through being a dragon bloodline sorcerer.

Wouldn't be that far off with the tech in that setting.


Can the Psychic classes take this?


Dworkin, Dwarf Alchemist wrote:
Can the Psychic classes take this?

There's no reason they can't. I took it on a Cleric (of Mathematics) once.

You're probably going to want to come to an agreement with your GM to avoid massively slowing down the game though. We play it as "you have to do the fiddly bit when it's not your turn, and if you don't have a solution by the time it's your turn, then you don't get to use it." Combined with "everybody makes fun of you if you use a calculator".


My 2 cents.

In an game that ended at 11th level, wizard character picked it at 3rd level (and then again at 5th, 7th, 9th and 11th). He has NEVER failed a roll, out of 5 players 3 enjoy math and physics and all confirmed he NEVER failed a roll.

I consider this feat broken.


is there an app that makes this work for you?


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Lady-J wrote:
is there an app that makes this work for you?

Yes, there is. I published my Android App Tools of Wizardy just a few days ago. It is free and can be developed further under GNU license.

There are other solvers / calculators but my solver aims at 100% correctness with brackets plus fast and easy use.

Only drawback, it computes results only up to rank 14 because for 14 and more values you succeed automatically, therefore the result is only for aesthetic purposes or curiosity.

Feel free to install and test it. Please review it (only if satisfied ;))


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WARNING: The link in the last post is outdated. Please use this link.

If any admin could update the link in the last post and delete this post, I would be very thankful.


I've only seen one player use it, and he is a savant. He didn't abuse it, and mostly used it for buffing the party and because he likes doing math.

Some people at the table thought he was just making it up because nobody ever checked his math, until one day he failed, and it looked like it physically pained him.

Silver Crusade

I think that it is, hands down, the worst feat that has EVER been published for any D&D variant.

The player abused it. The feat can't be used WITHOUT abusing it

It translates to
1) Waste some (or lots and lots of) time, the amount greatly dependent on the math abilities of the user.
2) Once you hit level 7 or so the chance of failing is nearly zero so the time spent above IS wasted
3) Once you succeed (which you almost always will) you get a grossly overpowered effect. 2 metamagic feats that can be applied without raising the spell level? Yes please. There are all sorts of intensely abusive combinations there (starting with something like a heightened rime ray of frost spell at level 1 :-)).


pauljathome wrote:

I think that it is, hands down, the worst feat that has EVER been published for any D&D variant.

The player abused it. The feat can't be used WITHOUT abusing it

It translates to
1) Waste some (or lots and lots of) time, the amount greatly dependent on the math abilities of the user.
2) Once you hit level 7 or so the chance of failing is nearly zero so the time spent above IS wasted
3) Once you succeed (which you almost always will) you get a grossly overpowered effect. 2 metamagic feats that can be applied without raising the spell level? Yes please. There are all sorts of intensely abusive combinations there (starting with something like a heightened rime ray of frost spell at level 1 :-)).

that entirely depends on what spell you are using it on if your using it on one of the damaging cantrips you can get empower and maximize for free to let it do a whole 9 damage if you are a blaster sorc still not great damage but still better then 1d3


RomanGupta wrote:

WARNING: The link in the last post is outdated. Please use this link.

If any admin could update the link in the last post and delete this post, I would be very thankful.

Good to have some free electronic tools of wizardry stuff out there. ;)


Is actually not really necessary, the math is not that hard. I always read that it drags down the turns as a mayor detractor, but I never seen that happen, at worse I've seen taking 45-60 seconds. Writing down the numbers in the app will not save you that much time really.

Srly, taking into account that from 6th or so level the chances of failing are reduced drastically, at 10th level are almost non existant so you have a feat that gives you two metamagic feats and that ignores their spell level increase for free (as long as you can cast the total level, like any other metamagic feat) and can be taken multiple times.


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45-60 extra seconds every time the geometer's turn comes around is pretty bad, actually. And not everybody is good at mental arithmetic.

It's a really, really bad feat for a lot of reasons, not least of which is it rewards the PC for the player's ability (instead of the PC's ability) to do something that otherwise has nothing to do with the game.


There's a number of ranks where it becomes trivial to make the numbers.

I've used it mostly to add duration to buff spells.

I think it's balance, but I'm in the "Balance is an Illusion - and Illusions can Flank" school of thought.


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It violates Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use.

I also suspect they seriously got the math wrong and it works far more often than intended.


nah, by the time you get to 9-11 dice, I can make it work over 90% of the time and on average around 10 seconds.

Silver Crusade

Perfect Tommy wrote:
nah, by the time you get to 9-11 dice, I can make it work over 90% of the time and on average around 10 seconds.

You should take longer and get your chance of success to way past 90% (I think that at 9 dice the odds are much closer to 99%).

And I suspect that you're much better at math than many players. We've probably all played with players who take more than 10 seconds to figure out
D20 (12) + 5 + 2 = 19.

Not to mention players who haven't figured out that
+2+4+1+3-1 is exactly the SAME +9 as it was last round (or even this round with haste, natural weapons, etc)

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