Sacred Geometry


Rules Questions

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Houserule: When casting a spell using this feat, the casting time is equal to the time required for the player to roll the dice and do the math. Electronic devices are banned, and Quicken Spell has no effect on this increased time.


JoeJ wrote:

Houserule: When casting a spell using this feat, the casting time is equal to the time required for the player to roll the dice and do the math. Electronic devices are banned, and Quicken Spell has no effect on this increased time.

While I think this is an overkill nerf, It's funny that if I was a caster, I think I would still want the feat. This kills any sort of combat utility, but free extend on buffs, as well as echoing spell would make it pretty useful.


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JoeJ wrote:
Houserule: When casting a spell using this feat, the casting time is equal to the time required for the player to roll the dice and do the math. Electronic devices are banned, and Quicken Spell has no effect on this increased time.

I prefer mine...

Houserule: This feat doesn't exist. Nor will it exist. Ever.


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Couldn't I just roll an intelligence check with my guy to solve it? That's why he has like 24 intelligence after all.


Sure, but you've gotta roll that many d20's, and have to come up with a Prime Constant using only addition.


Majuba wrote:

Fun fun feat - thanks everyone! Just needs a time limit to be truly awesome :)

K177Y C47 wrote:

Prepare an Elemental+Dazing+Intensified(if high enough level) Fireball

Use feat to Empower+Maximize and use a rod to quicken? Sounds like fun xD

So you have an Elemental Dazing Intensified Empowered Maximized Quickened Fireball... because screw you xD

No... you don't. You have to be able to cast the spell of that level (which would be 13th w/out the quicken).

Elemental +1 (-1 Due to Wayang Spell Hunter)- Dazing +4 (free due to Spell Perfection)- Intensify +1 (-1 due to Magical Lineage)- Quicken (ignored due to rod)- Empower Maximize from Sacred Geometry as you cast it...


... I am officially house rule adding onto this feat.

"You may not lessen the effective spell level of the modified spell." Therefore, no Wayan Spell Hunter, or Magical Lineage.

Fixes some of the Over Powered issue.

Spell Perfection requires level 15, right? By that point I'm more worried over what spells they're casting than this feat.


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How would you rewrite this feat for psionics?

"Do math and you can augment powers for FREE! and apply metapsionic feats! Woooo!"

Hmmmmm, the only issue with this rewrite is that it would help the psionic martials too.


I've been doing some test runs with this, just rolling dice and seeing if I can hit the right numbers...

I did about 30 rolls of 6 dice for spells modified up to 3rd level (6th level character), and about 15 rolls of 7 dice for spells modified of the 4th level, and I not only haven't failed to achieve one of the prime numbers, but have done so in under 30 seconds for almost every single roll.


..... Honestly? It would have been better if they there weren't 3 primes you had to hit, but 1. That might work?

Hey Yeti. Mind running it where only one of the primes is what you use to try and hit? I get the feeling it would help. Probably just use the 'middle' of the three.

I'd do it but... I'm lazy. And busy xD. GFs man... Always distractin ya from fixin yer games xD. I keed.

Sovereign Court

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@Artemis: when I tried it I used only one constant. It's still pretty easy.

---

Re: Globe of Invulnerability. By default emanations move with you, but a specific power always overrides the general rules. The Globe is an exception to the normal emanation spell rules. I see no ambiguity there.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:

@Artemis: when I tried it I used only one constant. It's still pretty easy.

---

Re: Globe of Invulnerability. By default emanations move with you, but a specific power always overrides the general rules. The Globe is an exception to the normal emanation spell rules. I see no ambiguity there.

Really?

The globe emanate from you.
You can move.
The globe can't move.
.....

The fix is simple: giving the spell a range of 0 and an Area of effect: 10' spherical emanation.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
K177Y C47 wrote:
Majuba wrote:

Fun fun feat - thanks everyone! Just needs a time limit to be truly awesome :)

K177Y C47 wrote:

Prepare an Elemental+Dazing+Intensified(if high enough level) Fireball

Use feat to Empower+Maximize and use a rod to quicken? Sounds like fun xD

So you have an Elemental Dazing Intensified Empowered Maximized Quickened Fireball... because screw you xD

No... you don't. You have to be able to cast the spell of that level (which would be 13th w/out the quicken).
Elemental +1 (-1 Due to Wayang Spell Hunter)- Dazing +4 (free due to Spell Perfection)- Intensify +1 (-1 due to Magical Lineage)- Quicken (ignored due to rod)- Empower Maximize from Sacred Geometry as you cast it...

I still never realized that Wayangs were the dominant race in Golarian. . . every single caster on these boards seems to be an orphaned half elf raised by Wayangs. . .

Scarab Sages

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Nathanael Love wrote:


I still never realized that Wayangs were the dominant race in Golarian. . . every single caster on these boards seems to be an orphaned half elf raised by Wayangs. . .

Rule #1 Always assume the wizard is perfectly optimized for the situation.

Rule #2 Always assume the wizard has exactly the right spells memorized.

Sovereign Court

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Artanthos wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:


I still never realized that Wayangs were the dominant race in Golarian. . . every single caster on these boards seems to be an orphaned half elf raised by Wayangs. . .

Rule #1 Always assume the wizard is perfectly optimized for the situation.

Rule #2 Always assume the wizard has exactly the right spells memorized.

The funny thing is when the other players start expecting the wizard's player to actually live up to this in a real game. Even when the GM is not always using the same situations.

Scarab Sages

Diego Rossi wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

@Artemis: when I tried it I used only one constant. It's still pretty easy.

---

Re: Globe of Invulnerability. By default emanations move with you, but a specific power always overrides the general rules. The Globe is an exception to the normal emanation spell rules. I see no ambiguity there.

Really?

The globe emanate from you.
You can move.
The globe can't move.
.....

The fix is simple: giving the spell a range of 0 and an Area of effect: 10' spherical emanation.

It's definitely not worded as it should be. The text again reinforces the idea that it doesn't move with you, though, when it says you may leave and return to the globe without penalty.

Sovereign Court

The text is perfectly clear. The Globe is immobile and you can move in and out of it. It appears centered on your location when you cast it and stays there.


Nathanael Love wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Majuba wrote:

Fun fun feat - thanks everyone! Just needs a time limit to be truly awesome :)

K177Y C47 wrote:

Prepare an Elemental+Dazing+Intensified(if high enough level) Fireball

Use feat to Empower+Maximize and use a rod to quicken? Sounds like fun xD

So you have an Elemental Dazing Intensified Empowered Maximized Quickened Fireball... because screw you xD

No... you don't. You have to be able to cast the spell of that level (which would be 13th w/out the quicken).
Elemental +1 (-1 Due to Wayang Spell Hunter)- Dazing +4 (free due to Spell Perfection)- Intensify +1 (-1 due to Magical Lineage)- Quicken (ignored due to rod)- Empower Maximize from Sacred Geometry as you cast it...
I still never realized that Wayangs were the dominant race in Golarian. . . every single caster on these boards seems to be an orphaned half elf raised by Wayangs. . .

Maybe they shouldn't release Traits that are this powerful, and which have effects that can't even be gained with a Feat*. Maybe they shouldn't tie feats/traits with generic effects to specific fluff elements like Race.

Besides, you don't see that trait on every caster, just the ones like Blaster Wizards and PFS Heavens Oracles who specialize in a particular low-level spell.

*Edit: I suppose you can pretty much do it with this feat, since it seems the check isn't hard to make from the mid levels onward. What a treat for casters, they sure needed it. I'm sure martials got many powerful options in this book as well.


Artanthos wrote:


Rule #1 Always assume the wizard is perfectly optimized for the situation.
Rule #2 Always assume the wizard has exactly the right spells memorized.

Rule number one applies to everyone. When you posted your example Fighter builds a few threads back, was your argument that those characters were poorly optimized?

Rule number two is a fair enough assumption, given several factors:

- Spells are cheap, and Wizards have their pick of an extremely broad spell list with basically no restrictions on selection (even if they are Specialists)

- Many spells are so broadly useful that it's a safe assumption that you need to prepare them every day.

- If the Wizard knows what he's going to be facing (by using Divination spells or sending in a Dominated infiltrator, etc.) he can customize his spells to the situation.

- A Wizard who finds himself with the wrong spells can escape and prepare the right ones in his empty spell slots, or come back the next day with a totally different set if need be. Beyond that, he can use an Arcane Bond Item to cast any spell in his spellbook, even if it's not prepared. Beyond that he can keep Scrolls of those spells that are situationally useful but very important when those situations come up. Yes, Fighters can take UMD, but Wizards don't even need to make the check if it's on their (very broad) list. And if it's not, Wizards are better at UMD.

Beyond that, every argument assumes that the Fighter has exactly the right feats and magic items for any situation. Magic items are much more expensive, and feats are semi-permanent character build decisions, and in both cases you can't just prepare a different set the next day if you get it wrong.

I'd like to add Rule #3: Always assume a situation so contrived that your pet class comes out on top. The caveat is that the more contriving you have to do, the weaker that class is.


Artemis Moonstar wrote:

..... Honestly? It would have been better if they there weren't 3 primes you had to hit, but 1. That might work?

Hey Yeti. Mind running it where only one of the primes is what you use to try and hit? I get the feeling it would help. Probably just use the 'middle' of the three.

I'd do it but... I'm lazy. And busy xD. GFs man... Always distractin ya from fixin yer games xD. I keed.

I was mostly aiming at one number for each of my tests, just because I couldn't be bothered to recall all 3. So, for the 6th level set, about half of the solutions were 19, and the other half 29, and I'm fairly certain that I could have made them all 19.

For the 7th level set, they were ALL 31.


Athaleon wrote:
Artanthos wrote:


Rule #1 Always assume the wizard is perfectly optimized for the situation.
Rule #2 Always assume the wizard has exactly the right spells memorized.
Rule number one applies to everyone. When you posted your example Fighter builds a few threads back, was your argument that those characters were poorly optimized?

Of course they are poorly optimized they didn't have all caster levels...

joke


Nathanael Love wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Majuba wrote:

Fun fun feat - thanks everyone! Just needs a time limit to be truly awesome :)

K177Y C47 wrote:

Prepare an Elemental+Dazing+Intensified(if high enough level) Fireball

Use feat to Empower+Maximize and use a rod to quicken? Sounds like fun xD

So you have an Elemental Dazing Intensified Empowered Maximized Quickened Fireball... because screw you xD

No... you don't. You have to be able to cast the spell of that level (which would be 13th w/out the quicken).
Elemental +1 (-1 Due to Wayang Spell Hunter)- Dazing +4 (free due to Spell Perfection)- Intensify +1 (-1 due to Magical Lineage)- Quicken (ignored due to rod)- Empower Maximize from Sacred Geometry as you cast it...
I still never realized that Wayangs were the dominant race in Golarian. . . every single caster on these boards seems to be an orphaned half elf raised by Wayangs. . .

Well this is pretty much standard stuff if you want to play a blaster...

1 level dip into Orc/Dragonic Crossblooded sorcerer, rest into Admixture Wizard with Wayang Spellhunter+Magical Lineage and grab Spell perfection when you can... put all on to fireball.


Ascalaphus wrote:
The text is perfectly clear. The Globe is immobile and you can move in and out of it. It appears centered on your location when you cast it and stays there.

I think he was thinking about Resilincy Sphere... which is pretty much a Wall of force in globe format...

Really funny if you use Greater Shadow Evocation to make it and put it on an archer...


what this feat needs is an automated calculator.


Jayder22 wrote:
JoeJ wrote:

Houserule: When casting a spell using this feat, the casting time is equal to the time required for the player to roll the dice and do the math. Electronic devices are banned, and Quicken Spell has no effect on this increased time.

While I think this is an overkill nerf, It's funny that if I was a caster, I think I would still want the feat. This kills any sort of combat utility, but free extend on buffs, as well as echoing spell would make it pretty useful.

And oddly enough, as a GM I would have far less problem with this feat if it is only used in situations where the caster has plenty of time. I think magic should be more powerful if you have the time to perform some sort of extended ceremony. That's a very common trope in fantasy, and it can be used by the villains to create tension in a game if, for example, the evil sorcerer has begun casting his Summon Cthulhu spell and you only have 20 minutes to get to the heart of the dungeon and stop him.


Hm now that I think about it... I wonder how a Blaster build would be if you swapped the Admixture Wizard for Arcanist (picking Admixture as your "school" and getting the Exploit that lets you get some of the higher wizard abilities)... seeing as they can abuse the crap out of Meta-Magic as well AND they can pump up DCs like no bodies business...


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Darche Schneider wrote:

what this feat needs is an automated calculator.

There's already a few out there. At least three are linked earlier in the thread.


I attempted to naively write a code to give me statistics on the likelihood of a certain number of ranks being able to give you the number you were shooting for.

The first step was to calculate the d6 dice rolls. Simply generating the integers from 1-6 overflowed at around 10 ranks (6^10 stored integers), meaning I'd have to write them and not store them in memory. Given that memory ran out at that point I figured increasing the dimensionality by the same factor (6^10 again), would probably overflow my disc space if I attempted to store it, so simply generating the integers for the dice rolls seemed impossible.

After this it actually gets much much worse because order of operations matters and so does the operator used, which alone (just order of operations) would increase the number of combinations of those individual numbers to 4^ number ranks-1.

I wrote this knowing that if you get a number you need, if you have 2+ remaining dice you have a 1-5/6 probability of keeping that number, 3+ 1-5*4/6^2, 4+ 1-5*4*3/6^3 5+, 1-5*4*3*2/6^4, 6+ 1-5*4*3*2*1/6^5, and at 7 remaining dice its impossible to not keep the result you need. This means at higher skill ranks you basically only need to use so many dice, and zero out the rest by +(#-#)* the rest where you have two dice that have the same number. Still, the dimensionality of this problem and trying to get statistics are staggering, so I gave up and tried the empirical approach instead.

I did some preliminary tests with a wizard with 6 ranks in knowledge engineering and at least 7/9 times he was able to cast a 6th level spell. Twice the multiplication of all of the numbers together was lower than minimum got 6th level spells (adding didn't help). Those 9 times took about 10 minutes of real time to simulate.

EDIT: reading earlier in the thread. It is *much* easier to check if an individual set of dice rolls is a valid solution rather than attempting to do the overall statistics of the problem


pauljathome wrote:

That is absurdly powerful. And will take forever to adjudicate with players who are NOT particularly numerate.

I REALLY hope PFS disallows this

No, instead it'll get "FAQ'd" (read: errata'd) so it'll work in PFS.


Buri wrote:
pauljathome wrote:

That is absurdly powerful. And will take forever to adjudicate with players who are NOT particularly numerate.

I REALLY hope PFS disallows this

No, instead it'll get "FAQ'd" (read: errata'd) so it'll work in PFS.

Considering how jaw droppingly overpowered this is... I think I'd be ok with that. (Though I agree they should just call FAQs that are really errata... errata. Yes I know why they don't, but still...)


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Nah, this won't get FAQ'd, it's not super over powered like negating one attack a turn at 5th level after taking a 4 feat chain. There's a chance this feat might not work at low levels, or something, math is hard, bro.

Learning super complex magical math that grants free meta magic feats and effects is perfectly balanced by requiring a slightly above average intelligence and 2 skill ranks.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Anzyr wrote:
Buri wrote:
pauljathome wrote:

That is absurdly powerful. And will take forever to adjudicate with players who are NOT particularly numerate.

I REALLY hope PFS disallows this

No, instead it'll get "FAQ'd" (read: errata'd) so it'll work in PFS.
Considering how jaw droppingly overpowered this is... I think I'd be ok with that. (Though I agree they should just call FAQs that are really errata... errata. Yes I know why they don't, but still...)

As it is in a softbound it will probably be banned from PFS but it will not see a FAQ or an errata.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Buri wrote:
pauljathome wrote:

That is absurdly powerful. And will take forever to adjudicate with players who are NOT particularly numerate.

I REALLY hope PFS disallows this

No, instead it'll get "FAQ'd" (read: errata'd) so it'll work in PFS.
Considering how jaw droppingly overpowered this is... I think I'd be ok with that. (Though I agree they should just call FAQs that are really errata... errata. Yes I know why they don't, but still...)
As it is in a softbound it will probably be banned from PFS but it will not see a FAQ or an errata.

Honestly, I don't consider anything not in the PRD to be in a rule book. Feats like this and spells like blood money fall into my "setting specific" category.

If I was running an all wizard party through puzzle dungeons as a form of math tutoring, then this feat would totally be allowed.

Sovereign Court

I think it'll just be along the lines of "all the feats from page X are legal except Sacred Geometry and [the follow-up feat]".

So far, it's usually quite easy to see why things that weren't allowed, weren't allowed.


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I'm going to spam the heck out of this feat next week. I can't wait.

Scarab Sages

I hate this feat. Its too powerful, too wordy and using it depends on the skill/maths ability of the player not the capabilities of the character. I'd never be bothered to do this maths - it'd take too long and be really boring.

Mathfinder.


I've been playing around with this feat for the past hour. I was able to make the numbers work 92% of the time for level one and two. The numbers dropped a bit after that but no lower than 80%.


Usually when I read some new material, my thoughtprocess as a GM is this

"Alright, is this well enough balanced to allow as is? Hmm maybe not, but I don't want to eliminate an option; I should tweak it a little bit."

I do this even with things that a lot of GMs tend to outright ban, like summoners for example.

But this time I read it and my immediate conclusion was "Nope, banned."


All these nice toys for casters...

So, when are the non-casting classes getting their turn?


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Icyshadow wrote:

All these nice toys for casters...

So, when are the non-casting classes getting their turn?

Don't you remember? Martials had their golden age with that awful, despicable Crane Wing. The cheaters.


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I find it pretty funny that this feat is just incredible for any caster, but crane wing was ONLY for a certain type of martial. Great design.


CWheezy wrote:
I find it pretty funny that this feat is just incredible for any caster, but crane wing was ONLY for a certain type of martial. Great design.

Crane wing was also from a rule book freely available on the PRD, so maybe it is held to a higher standard than feats from "esoteric setting book".

It doesn't justify the nerf, but explains the double standard to me at least.


Icyshadow wrote:

All these nice toys for casters...

So, when are the non-casting classes getting their turn?

Supposedly in 2015, when Pathfinder Unchained gets released. At least, that's what I'm crossing my fingers for.

Scarab Sages

Athaleon wrote:
Yes, Fighters can take UMD, but Wizards don't even need to make the check if it's on their (very broad) list. And if it's not, Wizards are better at UMD.

Wizards don't get UMD as class skills, so thing that could lead to them being better at UMD than a fighter would be it's high intelligence. A fighter could have a reasonably decent intelligence and easily be just as good, if not better at UMD than an equivalent wizard.


Raisse wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Yes, Fighters can take UMD, but Wizards don't even need to make the check if it's on their (very broad) list. And if it's not, Wizards are better at UMD.
Wizards don't get UMD as class skills, so thing that could lead to them being better at UMD than a fighter would be it's high intelligence. A fighter could have a reasonably decent intelligence and easily be just as good, if not better at UMD than an equivalent wizard.

The problem with that is that INT isn't a Fighter's primary stat, so if he's pumping INT he's losing out somewhere, whereas INT is a wizard's primary stat, so he gets far more out of it without sacrificing anything. There's also the fact that traits can give Wizards UMD as a class skill, or make it key off INT, just as easly as the fighter.

The biggest problem, though, is that UMD sucks until you can get it high enough to be super reliable. Being able to use scrolls and wands off the bat without having to pump skill points or anything is pretty good, and the only stuff the wizard can't do are those divine spells that aren't on his list.


Raisse wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Yes, Fighters can take UMD, but Wizards don't even need to make the check if it's on their (very broad) list. And if it's not, Wizards are better at UMD.
Wizards don't get UMD as class skills, so thing that could lead to them being better at UMD than a fighter would be it's high intelligence. A fighter could have a reasonably decent intelligence and easily be just as good, if not better at UMD than an equivalent wizard.

That's what traits are for. Pragmatic Activator or Clever Wordplay switches it from Cha to Int. A Wizard will undoubtedly have higher Intelligence than a Fighter. The Fighter needs Strength, Dex, Con, and Wis before he needs either Int or Cha.

And the Wizard has more skill ranks simply for having higher Int.

If we're talking about "using magic devices", lowercase, and not the UMD skill specifically, the Wizard has a huge advantage since he doesn't have to make UMD checks for many of them.


So in the level 2-3 caster range, what is the most fun you can have with a 0 level spell? I'm thinking there has to be something clever you can do.

The most obvious to me is daze locking low level humanoids at will.
Daze spell + persistent + bouncing = 4 saves before your spell fails.

Acid orb with a flask of acid as a focus with empower and + something will net you a touch attack of 3-7 points of damage, but I'm sure there is another feat to tack on that one as well.


well i guess this poses a time limit.
No more games after being up for 18 hours, to tired to do the math....


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minoritarian wrote:
I hate this feat. Its too powerful, too wordy and using it depends on the skill/maths ability of the player not the capabilities of the character. I'd never be bothered to do this maths - it'd take too long and be really boring.

Boring?.... Boring!?! Just look how much fun people in this thread have had testing it out!

Most fun feat ever!

Melvin: Presuming you meant a L.2-3 caster, none of that will work - you have to be able to cast the metamagic'd spell slot to use the feat. That said:

  • extended daze
  • enlarged acid splash
  • empowered disrupt undead (Lvl 3 req'd)
  • silent ghost sound
  • enlarged message
  • ectoplasmic disrupt undead
  • enlarged stabilize
  • heightened flare (I'm just fond of flare)
  • still lullaby
  • empowered mending (Lvl 3 req'd)


  • Acid Splash + Heighten Spell + Dazing spell

    No SR Will save or be dazed for X rounds. (Basically an unlimited save or die)

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