# Sacred Geometry

### Rules Questions

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pauljathome wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I heard it said that 12 ranks guarantees 100% success rate with any spell of 9th-level and lower.
I think thats "effectively" 100% chance. I think that very low rolls like all 1's still screw things up. So, "only" really a 99.99% chance :-)

That's correct; the largest number you can get out of 12 1's is:

(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)*(1+1+1) = 81

And the 2nd largest number you can create, is 72 so there are gaps in between... But yes, eventually you can hit anything, having rolled enough 1's.

Of course the chances of rolling 12 1's is 1 out of 2,176,782,336 so... yeah, you're still EXTREMELY likely to be able to come up with any amount when you have 12 ranks. Heck, you're extremely likely to succeed when you have 9 ranks.

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Extending that a bit:

(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)+1+1 = 83

(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)*(1+1+1+1)-1 = 107

So, that's 8th and 9th level spells using 14 ranks. So, unless someone can pull out something more efficient, it looks like you probably need a minimum of 14 ranks to be able to nail any spell level every time.

As for Calculating Mind bumping the dice to d8s... it's really quite something when a two-feat chain creates new contenders for both the "best feat" and "worst feat" titles.

The Lion Cleric wrote:

I think we should make a martial version of it, to give physically stronger players a boost when playing martial characters.

Quote:

Might Makes Right

Prerequisite : BAB +6, No ability to cast spells.
Benefit(s): Your physical prowess is enough to convince other people that you can kick butt.

Whenever you make an attack and miss, you can punch one of the casters at your table. Each punch you make increases the attack bonus of the attack by 1 to a maximum of +10. If you hit, you may choose to continue punching the caster for a stacking bonus of +2 (to a maximum of +20).

Special: if you throw a piece of furniture at the GM, the attack is considered an automatic crit with a modifier depending on the piece of furniture: a chair is a x2 modifier, a table is a x3 and a wardrobe is a x4. If you knock the GM out, the attack is resolved for maximum damage.

Example: Amiri, played by Bob, is swinging her sword at an orc. The attack misses. Bob is outraged and knocks the wardrobe over Phil, the DM, knocking him unconcious. The Large Bastard Sword deals 16 (maximum dice damage+1.5 strength modifier damage, multiplied by 4 for knocking Phil unconcious. The orc is dead, and Mary, the player of Ezren, is now running out of the room and phoning the police.

I think that is balanced, though I'm open to suggestions.

"well jeff, you're always saying we should follow the rules to the letter." ATATATATATATATATATATA (or ORAORAORAORAORAORA if that strikes your fancy)

fun fact: while a summoner couldn't take that feat since he can cast, his eidolon could, allowing you you play jotaro.

andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.

Fight a Celestial some time.

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This is a great feat because we always get frustrated with how fast combat is resolved. It will be nice to have a way to slow that down a bit. Especially for our summoning based casters who only have to do the actions for their follower, their familiar, their 5 summoned critters, and themselves.

So.... what were people saying about blasters being weak???

So... between Wayang Spell Hunter, Magical Lineage, Spell Perfection, and this... you can pretty much use ALL THE METAMAGICS!!!!because screw you xD...

So, what metamagics have effects you might want, but the increased caster level means that it is generally not worth the higher level spell slot required to use?

Also, Paragon Surge + Sacred Geometry seems like a fun combo.

One combo that also seems interesting is Umbral Spell + Shadow Grasp which turns every spell into a pseudo Black Tentacles spell.

Prepare an Elemental+Dazing+Intensified(if high enough level) Fireball

Use feat to Empower+Maximize and use a rod to quicken? Sounds like fun xD

So you have an Elemental Dazing Intensified Empowered Maximized Quickened Fireball... because screw you xD

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Oh yeah this feat is the best. I'll just get every meta magic feat ever by taking this multiple times and then create either a python or java script to do the math for me.

Woo max level spells all day.

(How unfortunate that echoing spell only doubles your slots. :P)

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K177Y C47 wrote:
So.... what were people saying about blasters being weak???

Today's Blaster Wizard just wasn't possible without all the traits and feats that came out in later books, so for a long time, they really were weak.

Even now, though Blasters aren't weak, they're still inefficient. Save-Or-Lose specialists only have to push their DC's to be effective, while Blasters have to push damage and ability to defeat SR, on top of their DC's. All this takes a high-level character to put together, while a 5th-level Wizard with two traits can toss out a Dazing Stone Call in a 3rd-level slot. A Heavens Oracle can hit enemies with effective Color Sprays for most of their PFS career for free, and again with two traits, add Persistent Spell for free.

 2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Athaleon wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
So.... what were people saying about blasters being weak???

Today's Blaster Wizard just wasn't possible without all the traits and feats that came out in later books, so for a long time, they really were weak.

Even now, though Blasters aren't weak, they're still inefficient. Save-Or-Lose specialists only have to push their DC's to be effective, while Blasters have to push damage and ability to defeat SR, on top of their DC's. All this takes a high-level character to put together, while a 5th-level Wizard with two traits can toss out a Dazing Stone Call in a 3rd-level slot. A Heavens Oracle can hit enemies with effective Color Sprays for most of their PFS career for free, and again with two traits, add Persistent Spell for free.

Which is actually a good thing. Throw most of your resources into blasting well, and a few of your resources into save or die effects, and guess what? You're now getting the best of both worlds!

Big bad boss? Save or die. Army of minions? BURN THEM.

Terrorize away you little spellcasting monstrosity. :D

hmmmm.....

Alright, so, I've decided I'm going to try this monstrosity with a Shadowcaster Thassilonian specialist. The question is.... Pride, Gluttony, Greed, or Wrath? I'm inclined to go with Pride or Gluttony, given my love of Illusion and Necromancy spells...

Time to study the metamagic and spell lists more thoroughly...

gluttony is loads of fun, from personal experience.

 3 people marked this as a favorite.
Ascalaphus wrote:
@Lunias: that's brilliant. So simple, but you're the first to see it.

*cough* 2nd page *cough*

Quote:
Multiplication should get you to what you need simple enough, even higher numbers. Then you just get rid of the rest: just minus some numbers down to create 0, and multiply anything you have left with that.

Though, to be fair, most didn't even notice I'd said that, and fixated on all their little ones. So I can forgive overlooking it.

My brain shut down halfway through trying to read that feat.

Kaisoku wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
@Lunias: that's brilliant. So simple, but you're the first to see it.

*cough* 2nd page *cough*

Quote:
Multiplication should get you to what you need simple enough, even higher numbers. Then you just get rid of the rest: just minus some numbers down to create 0, and multiply anything you have left with that.
Though, to be fair, most didn't even notice I'd said that, and fixated on all their little ones. So I can forgive overlooking it.

My apologies.

Joe M. wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

The tragedy is that I really like the minigame, but the result is just a tad overpowered. If the feat did less but with the same minigame, it might be appropriate for home games.

I'm also thinking that this might be a good feat for Silent+Still spells; like when you need to do something in a crowd without drawing attention. Since you're pretending not to cast stuff, the increased casting time probably isn't an issue anyway.

House rule it, then. :-)

(Unrelated: as I understand it, Silent + Still does nothing to hide the visual manifestation of casting a spell. Glowing magical runes and all that...)

Well, there's no actual rune about glowing magical runes. There's a big gaping hole in the rules where it should tell us what casting a spell without components looks like to an observer.

Although you can still use Spellcraft to identify a spell without any components.

However there's also circumstantial evidence (the Secret Signs feat) that suggests that a spell without any components left is not noticeable as spellcasting.

Given that I'm setting up an urban campaign where covert spellcasting will be A Thing, this bothers me.

Nocte ex Mortis wrote:

In all honesty, this Feat may have taken the throne of "Most Powerful Feat Ever Written," from Leadership.

... That is, until you realize that you can take Leadership, and have your Cohort ALSO take this Feat.

That's what's so hilarious about leadership, every OP feat that gets published only makes it stronger. It will never be dethroned, as far as I can tell.

Oh, just publish a feat that gives you a cohort with a level higher than your own. Right now leadership is still limited by at some point the cohorts of your cohorts of ... their cohorts hitting a level less than 7 and not being qualified to take Leadership themselves.

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Bandw2 wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I heard it said that 12 ranks guarantees 100% success rate with any spell of 9th-level and lower.
I think thats "effectively" 100% chance. I think that very low rolls like all 1's still screw things up. So, "only" really a 99.99% chance :-)

rolls of only ones actually i think screws up only the highest tiers because you can do stuff like

(1+1+1+1)*(1+1+1)+1+1+1-1-1)

You have an unmatched right bracket there. IT BURNS!

:P

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Ascalaphus wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
(Unrelated: as I understand it, Silent + Still does nothing to hide the visual manifestation of casting a spell. Glowing magical runes and all that...)
Well, there's no actual rune about glowing magical runes. There's a big gaping hole in the rules where it should tell us what casting a spell without components looks like to an observer.

This is one aspect of psionics that I really liked; they had "display" section of the powers that kind of gave a little more detail into what's going on than the "components" of regular spells.

Although it still says you provoke AoO whether you hid the display or not. :(

Ascalaphus wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

The tragedy is that I really like the minigame, but the result is just a tad overpowered. If the feat did less but with the same minigame, it might be appropriate for home games.

I'm also thinking that this might be a good feat for Silent+Still spells; like when you need to do something in a crowd without drawing attention. Since you're pretending not to cast stuff, the increased casting time probably isn't an issue anyway.

House rule it, then. :-)

(Unrelated: as I understand it, Silent + Still does nothing to hide the visual manifestation of casting a spell. Glowing magical runes and all that...)

Well, there's no actual rune about glowing magical runes. There's a big gaping hole in the rules where it should tell us what casting a spell without components looks like to an observer.

Although you can still use Spellcraft to identify a spell without any components.

However there's also circumstantial evidence (the Secret Signs feat) that suggests that a spell without any components left is not noticeable as spellcasting.

Given that I'm setting up an urban campaign where covert spellcasting will be A Thing, this bothers me.

I've considered adding +2 to the spellcraft check to figure out what spell is being cast for every component you eliminate... and then allowing a bluff check to completely fool everyone that you are not casting a spell. I never have implemented it, though.

andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.

Did you ever play 3.5 in the Eberron setting? A low to mid level build with the Deneith Dragonmark was amazingly broken in terms of just shrugging off everything.

andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.

How did the people with the pointy weapon get past your entire party and end up in the square next to you last turn, wait through the entire round again, including your turn, and then do a full-attack without anyone doing anything to stop them?

andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.
How did the people with the pointy weapon get past your entire party and end up in the square next to you last turn, wait through the entire round again, including your turn, and then do a full-attack without anyone doing anything to stop them?

Pouncing barbarian with Come and Get Me.

Artanthos wrote:
andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.
How did the people with the pointy weapon get past your entire party and end up in the square next to you last turn, wait through the entire round again, including your turn, and then do a full-attack without anyone doing anything to stop them?
Pouncing barbarian with Come and Get Me.

Why were charge lanes open?

Um who would be dumb enough to just stand around in the Globe????

If someone with a pointy stick is coming at you, Dimension Door... not that hard...

Artanthos wrote:
andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.
How did the people with the pointy weapon get past your entire party and end up in the square next to you last turn, wait through the entire round again, including your turn, and then do a full-attack without anyone doing anything to stop them?
Pouncing barbarian with Come and Get Me.
Why were charge lanes open?

Why do you assume you have a perfect wall 100% of the time?

Artanthos wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.
How did the people with the pointy weapon get past your entire party and end up in the square next to you last turn, wait through the entire round again, including your turn, and then do a full-attack without anyone doing anything to stop them?
Pouncing barbarian with Come and Get Me.
Why were charge lanes open?
Why do you assume you have a perfect wall 100% of the time?

Because that's what you should attempt to do whenever reasonably possible.

I think the basic argument is sound: a Globe only helps you a lot of you stay in it. That means you lose some of your freedom to keep moving around, and that can be bad.

I think the Globe has some real uses though; if you're trying to defend a strategic point for example. Like in a siege. Or when you want to shield fragile NPCs from enemy spellcasters. If you're doing an escort quest and the enemy has Magic Missile for example.

It's a good solution for some problems. Just like 80% of wizard spells. I think it's scroll material, not necessarily daily preparation material.

As far as I can tell, you can just walk out of the globe when needed.

Artanthos wrote:
andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.
How did the people with the pointy weapon get past your entire party and end up in the square next to you last turn, wait through the entire round again, including your turn, and then do a full-attack without anyone doing anything to stop them?
Pouncing barbarian with Come and Get Me.
Why were charge lanes open?

Charge Through + Strength Surge = insta-Charge lane.

Fun fun feat - thanks everyone! Just needs a time limit to be truly awesome :)

K177Y C47 wrote:

Prepare an Elemental+Dazing+Intensified(if high enough level) Fireball

Use feat to Empower+Maximize and use a rod to quicken? Sounds like fun xD

So you have an Elemental Dazing Intensified Empowered Maximized Quickened Fireball... because screw you xD

No... you don't. You have to be able to cast the spell of that level (which would be 13th w/out the quicken).

I'd probably be okay with this feat with a few changes:
1) No reordering dice.
2) Parenthesis are always left-to-right, so
A ? B ? C ? D ? E ? ... ? Z becomes:
( .. ((((A ? B) ? C) ? D) ? E) ? .. ? Z)
3) 20 second timer starting from when all dice are rolled.
4) You can choose to roll less dice.
5) Your character always provokes an AoO as your character just stands there looking at his fingers saying, "Err, three... fifteen... nineteen... "

No but really this feat is hilarious.

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Artanthos wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.
How did the people with the pointy weapon get past your entire party and end up in the square next to you last turn, wait through the entire round again, including your turn, and then do a full-attack without anyone doing anything to stop them?
Pouncing barbarian with Come and Get Me.
Why were charge lanes open?
Why do you assume you have a perfect wall 100% of the time?

And why you assume it will never work?

"Pouncing barbarian with Come and Get Me." is a bit rarer than expendable hirelings or strong companions.

And:

andreww wrote:
I have never seen Globe of Invulnerability ever be an issue as it may as well be renamed Globe of Utter Suicide. The Globe is immobile so you have to stand there and take full attacks from people with pointy weapons which is a terrible idea.

the bolded part is totally wrong.

PRD wrote:

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Area 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you
PRD wrote:
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

You are the point of origin of the emanation, so the globe move with you.

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I heard it said that 12 ranks guarantees 100% success rate with any spell of 9th-level and lower.
I think thats "effectively" 100% chance. I think that very low rolls like all 1's still screw things up. So, "only" really a 99.99% chance :-)

rolls of only ones actually i think screws up only the highest tiers because you can do stuff like

(1+1+1+1)*(1+1+1)+1+1+1-1-1)

You have an unmatched right bracket there. IT BURNS!

:P

I noticed it too, but I was like... I don't feel like editing it.

Diego, the globe is completely immobile. Carefully re-read the very first sentence describing the spell.

Majuba wrote:

Fun fun feat - thanks everyone! Just needs a time limit to be truly awesome :)

hahaha a time limit. If you add a time limit for one thing, you should be consistent and add a time limit for everything!

Also, adding a time limit would probably functionally do nothing, unless the time limit was so strict as to not make it possible. If you want to make it fail sometimes, why not just add a 50% miss chance or something?

So like, everyone is in agreement that this is the most bonkers broken feat ever and the mechanic is really terrible? I think maybe this is the worst feat ever printed?

 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Lormyr wrote:
Diego, the globe is completely immobile. Carefully re-read the very first sentence describing the spell.

A row of text that completely contradict the other part of the description. Nice.

One of the two things is wrong.
An emanation centered on you move with you. The spell say the globe is immobile.

If it is immobile (and that is a good subject for a FAQ) it can be used to protect martials with a low will ST. The tank that don't use shield, protection from evil, mirror image and so on will appreciate it.

Edit:

PRD wrote:

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

So, an emanation move with the target, a spread don't. Magic circle against evil is an example of that.

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser wrote:

Area 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you

An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.

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I'll be honest: I really like this feat. The idea is great.

It's just too powerful and too consistent.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
Diego, the globe is completely immobile. Carefully re-read the very first sentence describing the spell.

A row of text that completely contradict the other part of the description. Nice.

One of the two things is wrong.
An emanation centered on you move with you. The spell say the globe is immobile.

If it is immobile (and that is a good subject for a FAQ) it can be used to protect martials with a low will ST. The tank that don't use shield, protection from evil, mirror image and so on will appreciate it.

Edit:

PRD wrote:

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

So, an emanation move with the target, a spread don't. Magic circle against evil is an example of that.

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser wrote:

Area 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you

An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.

It is an emanation centered on you. The point of origin is where you were standing at the time.

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PRD wrote:

Magic Circle against Evil

Area 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature
...
Detect Magic
Area cone-shaped emanation
...
Detect Scrying
Area 40-ft.-radius emanation centered on you

You are convinced of what you say?

You realize what it will do to those spells and plenty of others?

PRD wrote:

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Area 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you

I don't see a difference.

Detect Magic and Detect Scrying don't say they are immobile and therefore they are not. The Globe appears centered where you are and stays there. You can go off and do other stuff if you want but the Globe stays where it was cast.

CWheezy wrote:
So like, everyone is in agreement that this is the most bonkers broken feat ever and the mechanic is really terrible? I think maybe this is the worst feat ever printed?

No, not really.

DualJay wrote:

I'll be honest: I really like this feat. The idea is great.

It's just too powerful and too consistent.

This. So much this.

It's a fun idea, even if it might grind the game to a screeching halt. Personally, I'm going to add an addendum that the rest of the game continues on without you whilst you are preparing this massive spell. Basically, you're taking the Delay option to drop the spell whenever you're done, regardless of whether you want to go at that point in the initiative or not.

It's got potential... It's just too consistent. If you had a larger chance of failure, it'd be better.

Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Also, where is your center exactly? You'r supposed to measure from a grid intersection with emanations and other area effects, so...how does that work?

Is this feat legal for Pathfinder Society?

Ravingdork wrote:
Also, where is your center exactly? You'r supposed to measure from a grid intersection with emanations and other area effects, so...how does that work?

Pick a corner.

Solusek wrote:
Is this feat legal for Pathfinder Society?

Right now, no. It is not listed under the additional resources page,

Link Nothing from the source book is listed right now. In the future if the book is added to this list, it might be...

Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:

Magic Circle against Evil

Area 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature
...
Detect Magic
Area cone-shaped emanation
...
Detect Scrying
Area 40-ft.-radius emanation centered on you

You are convinced of what you say?

You realize what it will do to those spells and plenty of others?

PRD wrote:

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Area 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you
I don't see a difference.

I do. It's in the first line of the text of the spell. Second word, in fact.

If it becomes so, be prepared for full-caster tables to become the norm above level six.

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