Could an increase to the use of Charmed Life help remedy the saves issue?
Maybe uses equal to her CHA mod per day, only usable if you have at least 1 Panache Point?
As long as it takes an immediate action, Charmed Life is pretty much unusable most of the time. Assuming it took a "immediate free action" as some have suggested, it could work... Sometimes... But it'd still not compensate for having slow progression for both Fort and Will save.
If it were simply a feat that replaces Wisdom with Cha for Will saves and SBs got it as a bonus feat at level 7 or something like that, it'd actually help.
I think the devs are worried about Paladins taking the feat to have absurd will saves, but it's really not an issue. Paladins already have amazing saves and some great immunities, but they are very feat-starved. If they want to spend one of their precious few feats to make their will saves unnecessarily high, so be it. It's not a much better deal than grabbing Iron Will...
why would you ever take slashing grace when you can take Dervish and get dex to damage on top of making the scimitar finesse and count as piercing???So I know it's not optimal, as there is no Dex-to-damage option, but I was looking at creating a Vudrani-themed swashbuckler using an urumi. Am I correct in reading Slashing Grace that it will allow me to use all swashbuckler class features with the urumi?Correct, but you would need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Urumi first.
While I love the idea of Slashing Grace, I hate that its essentially aSwashbuckler-only feat that is little more than a feat tax. What's worse, it only applies to one weapon at a time. I can understand the restriction for things like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization, but Slashing Grace is not a strong option currently.
The developers are looking into a single weapon dex-to-damage feat, which will presumably replace Slashing Grace and include its effect.
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As long as it takes an immediate action, Charmed Life is pretty much unusable most of the time. Assuming it took a "immediate free action" as some have suggested, it could work... Sometimes... But it'd still not compensate for having slow progression for both Fort and Will save.Could an increase to the use of Charmed Life help remedy the saves issue?
Maybe uses equal to her CHA mod per day, only usable if you have at least 1 Panache Point?
Charmed Life is a great fix for a bad reflex and will save. You're giving up a chance to spend panache/take a swift action and it hurts you on your next round, but that's an OK tradeoff for largely letting you dump a save stat.
Fort though, it's just a question of how many can come up in a single round and how failing just one takes you out of combat if not outright killing you.
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Fort though, it's just a question of how many can come up in a single round and how failing just one takes you out of combat if not outright killing you.
That's exactly what I fear.
There are so many paralyzing, infectious, poisonous and other equally debilitating attacks, that any front-liner who can't reliably make that Fort save will not be a front-liner for long...
That's probably why every single full BAB class has a good Fort save progression.
As long as it takes an immediate action, Charmed Life is pretty much unusable most of the time. Assuming it took a "immediate free action" as some have suggested, it could work... Sometimes... But it'd still not compensate for having slow progression for both Fort and Will save.Could an increase to the use of Charmed Life help remedy the saves issue?
Maybe uses equal to her CHA mod per day, only usable if you have at least 1 Panache Point?
Personally I'd be okay with that weak point, presuming I had proper offensive/utility compensation.
If I was able to use Charmed Life as an "immediate free action" and could use it up to my CHA mod per day that is (or maybe my CHA Mod + X). Mostly because in later levels as your CHA gets higher it'll scale well and see you through those hard do-or-die saves.
Of course that still makes early levels really rough... Which was the primary weakness many pointed out.
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Could an increase to the use of Charmed Life help remedy the saves issue?
Maybe uses equal to her CHA mod per day, only usable if you have at least 1 Panache Point?
That's a harsh nerf. Many Swashbucklers can only afford a 14 CHA out of the gate, and they certainly won't get another +2 every four levels after. So the ability as it currently exists gives you more uses than if it were tied to your Charisma modifier.
The "at least one Panache point" mechanic is overused in this class, effectively making Panache equal to CHA-1 since no one will ever want to spend their last point.
And it doesn't address the biggest problems with the mechanic: Limited uses per day, low reliability, and most of all, the Immediate Action. That limits you to using it once per turn, and using it locks you out of the Swift Action abilities that the Swashbuckler has too many of. I understand that they want players to make choices about what they will do with their turn, but "using or not using your only saving throw band-aid" isn't a real choice.
I'll say it again: Good Fort progression and straight Charisma to Will. Otherwise, prepare for the Paladin dips.
That's probably why every single full BAB class has a good Fort save progression.
Quoting for emphasis. +1
So it sounds like either Swashbuckler needs to be able to use Charmed Life as an "immediate free action" and get plenty of uses of it.
Or better yet, she needs to get Fort as a good progression, and swap CHA for WIS for Will saves.
(I'd be happy with swapping Fort for Ref in terms of good/bad save progressions, and upgrading Charmed Life to usefulness...but that doesn't necessarily match flavor.)
Otherwise we're looking at a rather frail front line fighter.
Perhaps we'll see some help via archetypes.
I'll say it again: Good Fort progression and straight Charisma to Will. Otherwise, prepare for the Paladin dips.
And nothing says "Swashbuckler" like a LG guy who can't lie or cheat...
Seriously, though... I don't think Paladin dips will be a problem. Taking even a single level of Paladin comes with strings attached. In the end, the player ends up playing a Paladin who just happens to belong to a different class (even if it's something like Paladin 2/Swashbuckler 18).
@Trout:
Archetypes aren't there to fix the base class, though are some cases where it looks like they tried. The base class should be effective on its own, with archetypes making it different, not better.
@Lemmy:
So they'll be honorable duelists. While we're on the subject - Even though this class is a Fighter/Gunslinger hybrid, is the Paladin (with all the expansion books) a better "bar" to set any full BAB class' power level?
Fort though, it's just a question of how many can come up in a single round and how failing just one takes you out of combat if not outright killing you.That's exactly what I fear.
There are so many paralyzing, infectious, poisonous and other equally debilitating attacks, that any front-liner who can't reliably make that Fort save will not be a front-liner for long...
That's probably why every single full BAB class has a good Fort save progression.
I just edited it into an old post, but it's not just every full BAB class, it's also the majority of 3/4 BAB classes. The only classes which don't have a good fort save are Bard, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard, Oracle, Summoner, Witch, Ninja, Arcanist, Investigator, Shaman, and Swashbuckler.
Ignoring Swashbucklers, 11 classes out of 31. 10 out of 28 if you skip the alternate classes. Four of those are full arcane casters with d6 hit dice. 2 are full divine casters (with the other pair being on the full fort list). That leaves two 6 level casters who are very specifically about hanging back and supporting everyone else. That just leaves rogue/ninja and investigator, skill monkeys largely focused on non-combat roles, whose main combat role is slipping in at the end with a big pile of d6s to finish something off, and the former largely able to avoid combat via stealth/invisibility/sniping from cover, and the other probably also benefitting from a good fort save now that I think about it.
Then we have the swashbuckler. A fighter variant whose weapon selection forces them to be immediately adjacent to anything they fight, whose AC plummets through the floor if they are ever subjected to paralysis, or most likely, str damage. They almost feel like they're designed to die when fighting anything calling for a fort save.
I am going to try to redeem myself here; *ahem* what if Derring-Do could be used for an exploding, non crit or vital strike multiplying, bonus to damage after using a move action?
Not really no. It doesn't particularly make sense, and the same point of panache could be spent on just about anything to almost certainly deal more damage. The sort of extreme luck dependance an exploding die mechanic gives you just isn't ever going to be worth investing a valuable resource to activate.
@Trout:
Archetypes aren't there to fix the base class, though are some cases where it looks like they tried. The base class should be effective on its own, with archetypes making it different, not better.
You're absolutely right of course. Really it seems like the community agrees on the need for adjustments to the saves here.
For my part, I'm just waiting for Developer commentary. I'd like to know where their thoughts are on the subject of the Swashbuckler at this point.
@Lemmy:
So they'll be honorable duelists. While we're on the subject - Even though this class is a Fighter/Gunslinger hybrid, is the Paladin (with all the expansion books) a better "bar" to set any full BAB class' power level?
Oh, sure. I'm not discounting Swashbuckler/Paladin characters at all. I love the concept of that character, but they will always be dueling Paladins rather than honorable Swashbucklers.
Also... Yes. IMHO, the Paladin (Or Ranger. Or Barbarian.) would be a much better "bar" for balancing than Fighter or Gunslinger. Although I'm okay with SBs being about as effective as a Gunslinger with no touch attacks.
Gunslingers are a cool class, IMO. They are a solid martial class, with decent saves, decent skills, a resource pool that allows them to do cool stuff... It's not amazing, but not bad either. (They could use some extra out-of-combat utility, though)
It's just the firearm rules that irk me... But I won't go into that right now because it tends to put me in a bad mood... lol.
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Quoting for emphasis. +1
That's probably why every single full BAB class has a good Fort save progression.
Huh. Even the Gunslinger has both a Good Fortitude progression and a Good Reflex progression. Weird.
Why doesn't the Swashbuckler, again?
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Saw a swashbuckler in the game I ran last night for PFS. Never realised before how good or abusive party and counter attack can be. I had to double check the playtest document and when I did the player finally stopped countering every attack against him. I didn't call him out on thinking he was cheating before i reread it, which i don't even think he realized. just find that to be extremly odd timing. i doubt he would delibretly cheat. i do know another issue i called out led him to say that he rechecked and had to reload the round 2 2 playtest saying he thought he already had it but that he had to do it again.
I understand that the parry is within the fickle fate of the dice but as a full BaB and built in weapon finesse I cannot think this will be spammed too often. At least that is how it was played last night. I trusted the player and did not look at just how high his cha was but I doubt he had that much or that he recharged it that often via death strikes and crits.
Anyway, I really disliked that I was able to roll a crit against him and confirmed just out of curiosity but it counted for nothing. I was suspect about weather or not it could block a natural 20 attack against the SB and we found nothing for or against it. Hope that gets spelled out clearly.
If anyone is riposting after every attack, they're missing this:
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
On that note I read parry to work like crane wing, in that if your roll higher than it is as though the original attack never happened, natural 20 or not. Likewise charges are held if parried and poison is still on weapons. Wasn't there a faq about crane stuff before where they weighed in on parry mechanics? I just assumed this was the same way.
Was this clarified on cranewing somewhere?
My point is that if you replace 'standard' with 'swift' then Dizzying Defence allows you to replace 'Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action' with 'Fighting Defensively as a Swift Action'. Brilliant! But since the ability is called Dizzying Defence and not Dizzying Attack I don't think this 'swift action attack' is what they intended.Re: swift/immediate action bottleneck:-
Dizzying Defense: can someone explain this to me? This ability allows you to fight defensively as a swift action instead of a standard action, but the choice to fight defensively doesn't cost any action at all! It just allows you to fight defensively while attacking or full attacking. Does this ability allow you to attack (defensively) as a swift action? That'd be great! But I don't think that's what they mean! Help me!
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC for the same round.Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.as you can see, fighting defensively is not a great answer, and RAW doesn't all you to use it on quite a few different things, including combat maneuvers.
Actually, now that I think about it.... if Dizzying Defense allows you to fight defensively as a swift action, then can't you make a full attack without penalties and *then* use Dizzying Defense as a swift action to gain the fight defensively bonuses until your next turn?
This way, you can gain the benefits of fighting defensively with almost no penalties. The attack penalties would only affect your ability to make AoOs.
On that note I read parry to work like crane wing, in that if your roll higher than it is as though the original attack never happened, natural 20 or not. Likewise charges are held if parried and poison is still on weapons. Wasn't there a faq about crane stuff before where they weighed in on parry mechanics? I just assumed this was the same way.Was this clarified on cranewing somewhere?
Yup. A deflect is basically a miss, except it doesn't activate anything that's triggered by a miss.
My point is that if you replace 'standard' with 'swift' then Dizzying Defence allows you to replace 'Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action' with 'Fighting Defensively as a Swift Action'. Brilliant! But since the ability is called Dizzying Defence and not Dizzying Attack I don't think this 'swift action attack' is what they intended.Re: swift/immediate action bottleneck:-
Dizzying Defense: can someone explain this to me? This ability allows you to fight defensively as a swift action instead of a standard action, but the choice to fight defensively doesn't cost any action at all! It just allows you to fight defensively while attacking or full attacking. Does this ability allow you to attack (defensively) as a swift action? That'd be great! But I don't think that's what they mean! Help me!
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC for the same round.Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.as you can see, fighting defensively is not a great answer, and RAW doesn't all you to use it on quite a few different things, including combat maneuvers.Actually, now that I think about it.... if Dizzying Defense allows you to fight defensively as a swift action, then can't you make a full attack without penalties and *then* use Dizzying Defense as a swift action to gain the fight defensively bonuses until your next turn?
This way, you can gain the benefits of fighting defensively with almost no penalties. The attack penalties would only affect your...
Oh. That makes sense I guess... Downside being that this won't be used often (if ever), given the action economy choke-points happening with the Swashbuckler as-is.
Quoting for emphasis. +1
That's probably why every single full BAB class has a good Fort save progression.Huh. Even the Gunslinger has both a Good Fortitude progression and a Good Reflex progression. Weird.
Why doesn't the Swashbuckler, again?
I have no idea. Maybe the design team thinks a 1st level Swashbuckler would overshadow 1st level Fighters? That'd be a silly concern, though. The only role where Swashbucklers are better than Fighters is that of agile melee warriors, which is exactly the role that the Swashbuckler class was created for in the first place. If you don't plan on taking Weapon Finesse and go dueling, Fighter is still the superior combatant (though less versatile out of combat, but that's because they are less versatile than... well... everything).
You want a heavily-armored warrior with lots of damage a all sorts of feats? You go Fighter. You want a guy who is amazing with firearms? Make a Gunslinger instead... For an cunning, agile and charming melee warrior, Swashbuckler is the ideal class! It makes sense that it's better than Fighters in that particular role.
Fighters still have better AC*, CMB, CMD and DPR. They don't need Cha either, so chances are they have better will saves too.
*Well, actually, at 1st level specifically, SBs might have better AC, since they are likely to focus on Dex and gear can be expensive for a 1st level character, so Fighters might not have access to superior armor yet.
Reflex save is pretty important up to 6th level, then it becomes nice bonus, and then a minor bonus... Fort and Will saves, OTOH, increase more and more in importance. And as soon as 3rd level spells come into play, they become one of the most important defenses in the game (if not the most important defenses in the game).
SoL effects are that lethal. And just as common... Sadly...
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Swashbuckler's Speed (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, as long as the swashbuckler has 1 point of panache, she adds her Charisma modifier to her initiative rolls and increases her base speed by 10 feet. Once per round, she may spend panache points to gain extra actions: 1 point to gain an extra move action, 2 points to gain an extra standard action, or 3 points to gain a full round action.
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Actually, now that I think about it.... if Dizzying Defense allows you to fight defensively as a swift action, then can't you make a full attack without penalties and *then* use Dizzying Defense as a swift action to gain the fight defensively bonuses until your next turn?
This way, you can gain the benefits of fighting defensively with almost no penalties. The attack penalties would only affect your ability to make AoOs.
No.
Normally, the decision to fight defensively can be applied to a standard attack action or a full attack action, but that decision doesn't cost any of your actions! It just modifies your attacks, and those attacks use the action-type it normally uses.
So Dizzying Defence cannot be a special ability to consume your swift action to do something that usually doesn't cost an action at all! Therefore it cannot be that Dizzying Defence forces you to use a swift action to modify your standard or full attack actions to fight defensively, when anyone can modify their attacks this way without using an action at all, not even a free action!
So the only other explanation is that when Dizzying Defence says that you may spend 1 Panache to take the 'fighting defensively action as a swift action instead of a standard action', the 'standard action' to which it is referring is the standard attack action! It lets you take a standard action attack....as a swift action! As long as that attack is fighting defensively!
As unlikely as this explanation is, it is at least possible, which the other explanation isn't!
The upshot is that you can attack (defensively) as a swift action! This really does help with the mobility issue! It means you can attack, move and attack again, or attack twice either before or after a move, or get an extra attack on top of a full attack, or attack during a move action as well as an attack at either side of that move action!
I honestly don't think that this is intended, but if Dizzying Defence means something different....what does it mean?
Because it can't mean that you spend 1 Panache and your valuable swift action, just to do what any commoner can do without spending Panache or swift action!
So, design team, what does Dizzying Defence do?
Swashbuckler's Speed (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, as long as the swashbuckler has 1 point of panache, she adds her Charisma modifier to her initiative rolls and increases her base speed by 10 feet. Once per round, she may spend panache points to gain extra actions: 1 point to gain an extra move action, 2 points to gain an extra standard action, or 3 points to gain a full round action.
Gut Reactions:
1 Point for a move seems reasonable.
2 Points for a Standard...Seems strong. Basing it off of other classes Monks and Ninjas for example can spend 1 ki point for an extra attack. This is obviously much better than just an extra attack, as theirs doesn't stack with haste, and is restrictive. But then again our points pool is more limited. So a more finite resource in theory should indeed be given higher value.
3 points for what could be two full attacks in one round? That seems very powerful. Not that I'm against power. But I've just gotten better DPR spread than a TWF of my level. Very strong.
Since I got very few replies to my question about Dodging Panache, I'll just leave a plea for the developers:
- Please polish the wording on Dodging Panache and make it clear at what point it should be declared and whether it can be used with Opportune Parry.
On a personal note, I'd like for it to be used after you get to see the enemy's attack roll instead of when the enemy declares the attack. If you feel the enemy is going to hit by a very small difference, you could use the ability, save a few Hit Points and feel damn smart for it.
Swashbuckler's Speed (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, as long as the swashbuckler has 1 point of panache, she adds her Charisma modifier to her initiative rolls and increases her base speed by 10 feet. Once per round, she may spend panache points to gain extra actions: 1 point to gain an extra move action, 2 points to gain an extra standard action, or 3 points to gain a full round action.
Gut Reactions:
1 Point for a move seems reasonable.
2 Points for a Standard...Seems strong. Basing it off of other classes Monks and Ninjas for example can spend 1 ki point for an extra attack. This is obviously much better than just an extra attack, as theirs doesn't stack with haste, and is restrictive. But then again our points pool is more limited. So a more finite resource in theory should indeed be given higher value.
3 points for what could be two full attacks in one round? That seems very powerful. Not that I'm against power. But I've just gotten better DPR spread than a TWF of my level. Very strong.
It is strong, but requires at least 16 Charisma to do once per day (and at least 18 if you don't want to lose all your panache reserve abilities!), or a feat to gain extra panache.
Would 1 point to move, 3 to standard, and 5 to full attack be more balanced? It's basically a once per day (or once per encounter at most) ability.
It is strong, but requires at least 16 Charisma to do once per day (and at least 18 if you don't want to lose all your panache reserve abilities!), or a feat to gain extra panache.
Would 1 point to move, 3 to standard, and 5 to full attack be more balanced? It's basically a once per day (or once per encounter at most) ability.
That's fair enough point about the CHA. We wouldn't see this being used very often.
I've been mulling it over (and had been hoping to see more comments on it from our fellows) but I'm actually okay with it balance wise at 1,2,3.
Particularly because so many abilities require you to have at least 1 Panache. And this is a fighting class. You're supposed to be able to dish out damage.
It's strong, but it feels like an acceptable level of strength.
Reasonable arguments could be made for this being potentially too strong, as I'm sure we'll see. But I sincerely like it.
Swashbuckler's Speed (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, as long as the swashbuckler has 1 point of panache, she adds her Charisma modifier to her initiative rolls and increases her base speed by 10 feet. Once per round, she may spend panache points to gain extra actions: 1 point to gain an extra move action, 2 points to gain an extra standard action, or 3 points to gain a full round action.
Gut Reactions:
1 Point for a move seems reasonable.
2 Points for a Standard...Seems strong. Basing it off of other classes Monks and Ninjas for example can spend 1 ki point for an extra attack. This is obviously much better than just an extra attack, as theirs doesn't stack with haste, and is restrictive. But then again our points pool is more limited. So a more finite resource in theory should indeed be given higher value.
3 points for what could be two full attacks in one round? That seems very powerful. Not that I'm against power. But I've just gotten better DPR spread than a TWF of my level. Very strong.
The extra attack from Ki does stack with Haste.
You might see Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knights with this ability. Spend 2 Panache for an extra Standard Action? Hell yeah! 3 spells per round!
Wait...
Spend 3 Panache for a full round action? So... I can start, and finish, a summon in one round, using Panache, quicken 2 spells, and then cast another spell?
*drool*
.....
Spending a limited resource, like Panache, for anything above a move action is just too powerful (and even then...) as a mechanic. The only class, as I recall, that can do something like this, is the Monk of the Four Winds archetype for the Monk. However, you can't do it until 12th level, and it costs a significant chunk of the Monk's Ki, a resource, by the way, that can't be recovered naturally, like Panache can. There is the Ki Mat, that can be used to meditate and recover 1 point of Ki per hour, meaning it's not very useful, where as Panache can be recovered mid-combat.
[Edit] Also, the extra Standard Actions from Monk of the Four Winds is extremely limited in what you can do with it.
Quoting for emphasis. +1
That's probably why every single full BAB class has a good Fort save progression.Huh. Even the Gunslinger has both a Good Fortitude progression and a Good Reflex progression. Weird.
Why doesn't the Swashbuckler, again?
I have no idea. Maybe the design team thinks a 1st level Swashbuckler would overshadow 1st level Fighters? That'd be a silly concern, though. The only role where Swashbucklers are better than Fighters is that of agile melee warriors, which is exactly the role that the Swashbuckler class was created for in the first place. If you don't plan on taking Weapon Finesse and go dueling, Fighter is still the superior combatant (though less versatile out of combat, but that's because they are less versatile than... well... everything).
You want a heavily-armored warrior with lots of damage a all sorts of feats? You go Fighter. You want a guy who is amazing with firearms? Make a Gunslinger instead... For an cunning, agile and charming melee warrior, Swashbuckler is the ideal class! It makes sense that it's better than Fighters in that particular role.
Fighters still have better AC*, CMB, CMD and DPR. They don't need Cha either, so chances are they have better will saves too.
*Well, actually, at 1st level specifically, SBs might have better AC, since they are likely to focus on Dex and gear can be expensive for a 1st level character, so Fighters might not have access to superior armor yet.
Reflex save is pretty important up to 6th level, then it becomes nice bonus, and then a minor bonus... Fort and Will saves, OTOH, increase more and more in importance. And as soon as 3rd level spells come into play, they become one of the most important defenses in the game (if not the most important defenses in the game).
SoL effects are that lethal. And just as common... Sadly...
The extra versatility outside of combat is pretty debatable. At present, everything about Swashbucklers pushes you to dump the hell out of int, so you aren't going to get the benefit of those skill points. Past that... I GUESS there's derring-do? Pretty useless though. Plus, I know I keep harping on it, but fighters do a lot just by having high strength. They carry everyone's stuff, when there's a cliff that needs scaling, their the one to climb up with a rope and haul everyone else up. Swim down the flooded tunnel to see where it leads. Unless by "outside of combat" you specifically mean "try to win over the favor of this one NPC you're talking to," but even then, charm person.
Also- Swashbucklers have two things going on AC wise. First, if you actively push for AC above all else, precise strike lets you do not completely suck on damage. You're massively outclassed by a monk on that front though, and you're not doing anything anyone can't do to pump their AC. More realistically, you match the AC of a fighter (which is pretty nice) if you make efforts to keep it up via a lot of tax feats, rather than making a moderate investment in dexterity. A fighter has less fewer stat dependancies and more feats though. If you aren't willing to make that much effort, your AC is terrible, and the fighter starts with a bit of an edge.
An extra Standard Action wouldn't be that powerful, considering anyone with 7+ levels of Swashbuckler is going to have a rather limited list of things they can do with it. They can make one melee attack, perform one combat maneuver, spend another Panache to use Superior Feint, or cast a spell that's been gimped severely because they have 7+ levels of Swashbuckler. With all that said, I do not see this happening. Remember, you could previously spend one Panache to gain an extra attack as a Swift Action, and that's been removed.
An extra full round action is right out, as nobody can come close to an ability like that. You spend 3 Panache but you're likely to get at least some of it right back after two full attack routines.
How about these:
- At 6th level, combine a full move with a full attack action for the cost of one Panache
- Allow Superior Feint to replace the first attack in a full attack action
Alternatively, because it would be great if the Swashbuckler did more with Intimidate, roll Superior Feint in with Menacing Swordplay. Change Menacing Swordplay to a Free Action — Power Attack + Cornugon Smash already lets you do this, yes it's non-bloody-core. Cap it at a maximum of one attempt per round if you want. At higher levels, give the option to spend Panache on a successful Intimidate check from Menacing Swordplay to inflict more conditions. At 7th level, you can make the target lose Dex to AC. At higher levels, the effects can include making the target lose an attack of opportunity, forcing it to attack you on its next turn (with an attack roll penalty if it doesn't), making it simply take more damage from your allies, etc.
Did you actually playtest this at these levels, or just slap the character together and give it a glance? I'm seeing a few things that don't add up right from where I'm sitting.
just slapped together a guy off the top of my head.
First off, equipment. 10 str gives you a light load of 33. 2 for a rapier, 5 for a buckler, 20 for studded leather, then 2 more lbs. at level 5. That has you at 29/33 lbs. Go with a an entertainer's outfit and you get around the indecent exposure issue but... you can't pick up anything. One copper piece technically bumps you to a medium load. You can't even wear a handy haversack to make up for it, even if your GM waved the encumbrance of your clothes. I have doubts about that in terms of realistic playability. Also at level 20 you seem to be adding two armor bonuses into that crazy AC (bracers and duster).
actually, I'm just wearing the duster for the extra grit point. you make a valid point about equipment weight, but worst case scenario you could just use leather instead of studded leather. that would net you another 5 lbs.; besides, I'm not in the party to carry stuff. that's the job of the ugly people (j/k). if you want, I would be more than happy to break down any of my numbers for you.
I'm also pretty sure you have to pick just one bleed effect for a given attack, but the specific wording is weird with the whole "free action" bit.
yes, but with 3-4 attacks at 15 (depending on whether or not you riposte, you can get multiple bleed effects on a target in the same round.
The first real problem I'm seeing though is that nothing has any incentive to stay in a fight with you. If I try and attack some wimpy looking guy, and he knocks my attack aside and stabs me in the face for my trouble, I'm not especially inclined to keep trying that. I'm just going to step over here and attack this other, even wimpier looking guy who keeps casting spells. You don't have any sort of ability to keep me there like tripping or grappling, or even step up, so the worst I have to deal...
except that I can trip the target and riposte outta their aoo. overall I'm not saying that it's a perfect character, but then again what is? I just think that the idea that you "have" to have str to be a swashbuckler mindset that a lot of people see to have is a bit overrated. I will concede that you might have a point about ghouls. but as an inverse of that, you are just as likely to fight orcs, goblins, and goblins as you are to fight ghouls. I'd argue more so, and that sort of combat is where the swashbuckler shines, potentially being able to hold off multiple opponents at the same time.
I'm going to be controversial here and say that I don't necessarily think that swashbucklers should just DESERVE a good fort save, I can see why the Devs dont want it too OTT. But of course i can also see how people are (understandably) worried about failing saves at higher levels.
For my part what I would propose is *(yet another) change to charmed life:
As an immediate free action a swashbuckler (with one point of panache) can add his Cha bonus to any one save for one round. A swashbuckler can do this half his level + 2 times per day. A swashbuckler can not use this ability twice in the same round to boost two saves.
The level reliance stops it being used as a dip class for paladins, the free nature of the action saves on economy, and the 1 round length means if a swashbuckler is suddenly piled on by ghouls he will survive the round (maybe) and at least next round can choose to run away if he thinks his fort luck wont be so good next time. You could also have the ability scale if needed (ie Cha bonus +1 at level 7, Cha bonus +2 at level 13). I havent run the maths or anything but in theory this method would seem to solve a lot of problems.
I'm going to be controversial here and say that I don't necessarily think that swashbucklers should just DESERVE a good fort save, I can see why the Devs dont want it too OTT.
'Deserving' is a very silly way to phrase the issue.
Of course it hasn't done anything to 'deserve' a good fort save, just as the Fighter class doesn't 'deserve' it, nor the Ranger.
It does need the good fortitude save, though, to function as a front line combatant in just about any game beyond lvl 3. From lvl 1, in some cases.
I'm going to be controversial here and say that I don't necessarily think that swashbucklers should just DESERVE a good fort save, I can see why the Devs dont want it too OTT.'Deserving' is a very silly way to phrase the issue.
Of course it hasn't done anything to 'deserve' a good fort save, just as the Fighter class doesn't 'deserve' it, nor the Ranger.
It does need the good fortitude save, though, to function as a front line combatant in just about any game beyond lvl 3. From lvl 1, in some cases.
I'll be honest it was meant to be "silly" the word was chosen on purpose, people have been pointing to the gunslinger and fighter as both having good forts, and saying the swashbuckler should definitely have it. Thats the poorer argument imho. The better argument is obviously their actual need for it as front line fighters and that was what I dealt with in the rest of my post.
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My myth-weavers account is getting kinda cluttered up and I can't find where to delete all these sheets so I'm just going to update the one sheet for Diva here. Feats are labeled with the level I'm taking them, equipment I'm largely cribbing from Debbie's sheets. Also I forgot her human bonus skill before, let's go climb with it.
So let's see. Goblins go down in just one or two attacks, since Diva isn't stuck throwing darts and actually has a positive damage modifier. Dex to damage and power attack pay for themselves against skeletons, giving her a push over that DR hump that kept Debbie from hurting them no matter what she did. Pretty functional so far.
Fighting a monk here causes her some trouble. Oddly, not from his stunning fists that would have taken her down (they missed), but just general bad luck against a higher level opponent. That's just level 1 for you. For what it's worth though, I was trying to parry the attacks with the stunning blows, so charmed life wouldn't be available for the saves if they'd landed. Plus, level 1. Don't have it yet.
Level 2! Masterwork everything I guess.
Fighting a sinspawn is a dicey panache consuming affair, but a winnable fight. This vargouille I think I skipped with Debbie is rough with this fort save (rolling some 1s didn't help), but it's not a fight ender and she'll pull through with a visit to a cleric. Not really worse than a fighter would have done since I had Charmed Life, it just didn't make the difference.
Most of the fights against big dumb brutes are manageable. Doing a bit of damage, pretty good AC. It's more like the traditional trading of blows you see with a fighter. Here's a caster at the end though with a hold person ready to go. Pretty easy save at just a 14, but there were a lot of nasty saves on the way in and Diva's also having a little duel with a melee brute with better init. Charmed Life is tapped out and she doesn't have the immediate action handy when it comes up anyway. Would have made the difference here too. As is, hold person turns her into a chew toy for the melee critter. Drat. Let's say she lived somehow and moved on.
Level 3! Let's slap a +1 on this rapier. Weapon Focus for specialization later. Primo deeds come online along with nimble. For those keeping score, +8 to hit for 1d6+7 (2d6+11 on a crit), power attack makes it +9/+15. AC is a respectable 19. Saves are 2/6/0 with 3 charms to throw.
Diva plays close enough to a fighter here that it's pretty smooth sailing. This section of my test AP has some trip-biters so hey, I get to kip-up and that feels real good. Not really using my move actions at this level anyway. I am never touching the damage doubler on precise strike because 3 damage is so not worth it next to an extra attack, and around this level a 2-weapon build would start to really come online. I'm going to need a separate run for that though I think.
Here's a boss that hits a little better than she does, but nothing special so she's just a fighter with slightly weaker hits and less feats. Here's another, here's another... caster time. Here's a couple things that kick off combat by asking for easy will saves. Charmed Life didn't actually make a difference, but on paper it's appreciated and this seems like a good place to use them. Another problem with this ability as written by the way- In my experience, GMs rarely if ever tell you what is going to happen if you fail a save, so you can't realistically plan for which 3 saves are the most important to roll and kinda just use them on the first 3 fort or will saves to come up. Might sit on one until you find a big boss but... you kinda need to metagame to benefit.
Next notable encounter is this nasty boss that hits like a truck. Parrying her offhand attacks is the best panache use. Oh hey, shatter sucks. Diva has no backup weapon and is very committed to her rapier if I'm properly guessing how this dex to damage feat's being written. This boss also has some crazy special move that does cha damage. Not really sure how that interacts with panache, but I'm pretty sure she's always going to keep one point at least. Aside from shatter being extra painful, no real challenges a fighter doesn't face here.
There are still shadows in this adventure. They still suck. Diva still loses her AC if she takes any str damage at all. Of course, I ran this part of this adventure last night and these traumatized that party, but even so, shadows suck more for swashbucklers than other frontliners and that's saying a lot.
There's another will save or suck in the back here. Charmed Life might be empty, but I think there's call for a rest before it. Does not make the difference with this half-dumped wis. Diva is already feeling the pain of the bad fort save at this level, in the form of a potential death and some nasty disease effects.
I think I can pretty much skip this whole next chapter because I ran through the major highlights with someone else's test character not long ago. Large quantities of ghouls, ghasts, and fort/will saves in general rip any swash to pieces and there really isn't anything to be done about it. Charmed life runs out crazy early and doesn't cover the gap even with cha pumped to 16 at level 5. Things do go a lot better with the end of chapter boss with 4 charmed life uses a day, because nothing else is going to eat them on that particular day. Of course, "going better" means the equivalent of someone with a bad will save and 14 wis, and there's a nasty fort in that caster's bag of tricks too.
Chapter 3 of this AP, if I recall, was mostly straight-forward saveless fights Debbie suffered through not being able to do noteworthy damage, but that was her only real problem. Except for that one weird thing towards the end that completely wrecked her. Diva can probably handle that one a little better because she has the damage output to fight a war of attrition, pretty much still eating the dex poison there though.
And then shortly after all that there's a dragon which no swashbuckler can really do anything at all to. All the other melee types pull out their emergency bows they're at least fairly good with, but they all add str to their hits and Diva doesn't have it. Plus fighters have their second weapon group, paladins smite, rangers switch-hit, barbarians have massive composite longbows, gunslingers just stop hitting touch AC...
tl;dr Charmed Life works for will saves, fort saves still kill you. Please switch the good save from ref to fort (or make both good).
There's a big issue with precise strike too, but I need to build up a second character here to properly illustrate it it seems.
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I don't think Charmed Life is the answer. It's too easy to eat through too fast, and an example of how you can't spend your panache to be awesome, because you have to spend it to patch a design-flaw and not suck very briefly.
I think people are just pointing to the fighter and gunslinger as examples how all the other d10, full BAB classes get a good fort, front-line fighter or not, to highlight how jarring it is that the Swashbuckler doesn't.
Less "those guys get it, so swashbuckler should get it too", more "you gave it to those guys, you obviously understand that it's vital for someone in this position, and yet..."
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you make a valid point about equipment weight, but worst case scenario you could just use leather instead of studded leather. that would net you another 5 lbs.; besides, I'm not in the party to carry stuff. that's the job of the ugly people (j/k).
You kid, but it really is your job. The default party of fighter rogue wizard cleric still last I checked, maybe with a bard in there. The fighter is the one we're going to swap a swashbuckler in for, because that's the skillset they have. Normally, whoever's in the fighter slot has 20+ str, and can play packmule for everyone else so well you don't even look at how much everything weighs. With a swashbuckler in there though, that's not happening. The wizard dumped str. The rogue probably did too if there's a dex to damage feat she can play with now, or at least doesn't have a ton. The cleric might have it covered, but might be focused more on casting and neglecting it. Odds aren't bad there is nobody in the party to haul all the loot out of the dungeon now.
I will concede that you might have a point about ghouls. but as an inverse of that, you are just as likely to fight orcs, goblins, and goblins as you are to fight ghouls. I'd argue more so, and that sort of combat is where the swashbuckler shines, potentially being able to hold off multiple opponents at the same time.
This is true. Those are all commonly encountered monsters (except for the orcs, I have never seen one in anything Paizo has published). The AP I'm testing with has a whole chapter full of goblins which go down easy, then a whole chapter full of ghouls, which kill swashbucklers.
This can't be stressed enough. It's not, "this is a monster that's harder to fight with this class." It's "this is a monster which consistently causes this class to die within a round or two, at a low enough level that that's a permanent thing."
It's not just ghouls either. If a monster has any kind of special ability that calls for a save, it calls for a fort save, and it does so on every attack it makes. Having a good fort save and decent con makes it more or less a non-issue for everyone else, at higher levels it becomes a don't-roll-a-one proposition more often than not. For a swashbuckler though, it's kinda like having a standing bet that you're going to flip a coin every day, and if it ever comes up tails, you're facing near-certain death... and by every day I mean a good dozen times over the course of a given adventure.
Long diatribe on Lack of Panache 'cause most Swashies can only realistically afford 14 Cha lost thanks to the sodding computer...
Suffice it to say that Swashies will use it more that Gunslingers and without it they aren't as effective as they are written. CHA mod + 1 really needs to be level.
They are not feat light as a class either... needing to buy 'Extra Panache' is just gonna hurt more.
You really never need more than 2 panache. 1 to power all the always on stuff, one to either pay the arbitrary precise strike crit tax, or do something neat each round instead. You eventually pretty much always gain a point like every other round because critting with a 15+ range happens constantly, and other than bleeding wound (which you're probably plunking signature deed onto the second you get it), the swift action bottleneck keeps you from ever spending more than 1 per round.
All you get out of a 3rd or 4th panache point in practice is a small buffer against having a weird dry spell in your crits (and peace of mind when you get 2 crits in one round that the second isn't purely wasted).
That crit tax bit seriously needs to go though. It's ridiculous.
I think I can probably just stop posting, and favourite everything Google says instead.
Best posts throughout the playtest.
Quoting for emphasis. +1
That's probably why every single full BAB class has a good Fort save progression.Huh. Even the Gunslinger has both a Good Fortitude progression and a Good Reflex progression. Weird.
Why doesn't the Swashbuckler, again?
I have no idea. Maybe the design team thinks a 1st level Swashbuckler would overshadow 1st level Fighters? That'd be a silly concern, though. The only role where Swashbucklers are better than Fighters is that of agile melee warriors, which is exactly the role that the Swashbuckler class was created for in the first place. If you don't plan on taking Weapon Finesse and go dueling, Fighter is still the superior combatant (though less versatile out of combat, but that's because they are less versatile than... well... everything).
You want a heavily-armored warrior with lots of damage a all sorts of feats? You go Fighter. You want a guy who is amazing with firearms? Make a Gunslinger instead... For an cunning, agile and charming melee warrior, Swashbuckler is the ideal class! It makes sense that it's better than Fighters in that particular role.
Fighters still have better AC*, CMB, CMD and DPR. They don't need Cha either, so chances are they have better will saves too.
*Well, actually, at 1st level specifically, SBs might have better AC, since they are likely to focus on Dex and gear can be expensive for a 1st level character, so Fighters might not have access to superior armor yet.
Reflex save is pretty important up to 6th level, then it becomes nice bonus, and then a minor bonus... Fort and Will saves, OTOH, increase more and more in importance. And as soon as 3rd level spells come into play, they become one of the most important defenses in the game (if not the most important defenses in the game).
SoL effects are that lethal. And just as common... Sadly...
I was actually going to defend the designer's decisions by saying, "Well, the Gunslinger only has one Good Save, so maybe they chose to do it so the character wouldn't outshine its parent in Fortitude saves."
But as you can see, when I double checked my references, I was quite surprised. As written, the Swashbuckler is already better than the fighter at Reflexes, so why leave it worse off than both parents in Fortitude? After reading the arguments as to why the Swashbuckler should have good Fort and taking the fact that Gunslinger has good saves in both Fort and Ref, I'm honestly not sure why the Swashbuckler doesn't have the same benefits.
Even though this class is a Fighter/Gunslinger hybrid, is the Paladin (with all the expansion books) a better "bar" to set any full BAB class' power level?
The paladin gets compensated for it's strict code by being generally overpowered. Not hugely so, but enough that it is not a good bar. Strangely, the best bar for the swashbuckler would seem to be the barbarian - about as good defenses.
@Googleshng
You are overstating the problems of Strength damage. In Pathfinder, Strength damage doesn't actually affect your encumbrance limits.
Ability Damage: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The Ability Damage penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. See Ability Score Damage below.
Also, isn't there a rule that normal clothing does not count against encumbrance, or was that 3.5?
Even though this class is a Fighter/Gunslinger hybrid, is the Paladin (with all the expansion books) a better "bar" to set any full BAB class' power level?The paladin gets compensated for it's strict code by being generally overpowered. Not hugely so, but enough that it is not a good bar. Strangely, the best bar for the swashbuckler would seem to be the barbarian - about as good defenses.
Just gotta disagree with this. Paladins are not even close to overpowered, code of conduct or not.
They are effective at what they do (like every class should be), they are reasonably versatile (like every class should be) and have solid defenses (like every front-liner should have).
In fact I'd even give Paladins 2 extra skill points per level and add Intimidate and Kn(Planes) to their list of class skills. Then they'd be almost perfectly balanced.
IMHO, Inquisitors are the best designed and best balanced class in the game, but Alchemists Bards, Barbarians and Paladins come really close. Magi and Rangers are not far either, but Magi do have a few cheesy options or two, and Rangers could use a small buff.
Vanilla Summoners could be balanced if not for their bizarre spell list... Eidolons are easy to "break", but the fact that they share item slots with their Summoners is a huge weakness. And some evolution options are too powerful. Pounce at 1st level for 1 evolution point is insane.
On a separate note... Swashbuckler Finesse.
Why give SBs a different and "wordy" version of Weapon Finesse? I assume the designed team included the "all light and one-handed piercing weapons" bit to include rapiers and sword canes... But rapiers and sword canes can already be used with Weapon Finesse per weapon description.
Wouldn't it be much simpler to just give SBs the Weapon Finesse feat at 1st level? Isn't it generally better to avoid creating new game mechanics when an old one will do?
You are overstating the problems of Strength damage. In Pathfinder, Strength damage doesn't actually affect your encumbrance limits.
Unless there's been developer clarification thats very debatable.
Its however rather moot, since you can solve the problem with a potion of ant haul.
Google: I like most of what you're saying, but encumbrance is easy to work around until level 5 and a total non issue after that when the party gets the standard issue handy haversack.
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Google: I like most of what you're saying, but encumbrance is easy to work around until level 5 and a total non issue after that when the party gets the standard issue handy haversack.
I disagree. While carrying gold and non-combat gear is a non-issue, armor, weapons and magical gear still pose a problem... Magic items that increase your carrying capacity take the all-too-important belt slot, and custom items are usually not easily available,at least IME.
I think I can probably just stop posting, and favourite everything Google says instead.
Best posts throughout the playtest.
Seconded.
Google: I like most of what you're saying, but encumbrance is easy to work around until level 5 and a total non issue after that when the party gets the standard issue handy haversack.I disagree. While carrying gold and non-combat gear is a non-issue, armor, weapons and magical gear still pose a problem... Magic items that increase your carrying capacity take the all-too-important belt slot, and custom items are usually not easily available,at least IME.
Spend a grand to buy the party wizard or cleric a pearl of power and have them memorize an ant haul for you.
Wand of ant haul
Darkleaf cloth studded leather (which you need anyway if you want to send your dex into the stratosphere), mithral buckler, etc can lighten the load considerably.