Revised Swashbuckler Discussion


Class Discussion

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Sovereign Court

Scale it like power attack with FF then. Make it a deed, +2 damage plus an additional 2 every four levels. Total bonus cannot exceed double dex mod, and only works when you have at least one point of panache. Expend a point to increase it by 50%


uhhhh, can you clarify your suggestion a little?
Is that as a replacement for the current precise strike, and still allowing stat to damage?
Is that as a replacement for stat to damage, stacking with current precise strike?
Is that a replacement for proposed precise strike revision, replacing both?

Sovereign Court

Err, sorry. I'm at work and on my phone. No it would not replace stat to damage but it wouldn't stack with power attack. That way you could begin play with a decent strength and high dex and would be rewarded for that dex down the road while baing able to pump other stats(con and cha perhaps?) that would help you increase panache or defenses or skills as you see fit. Wouldn't really ever reward a dex higher than 20 though.

Sovereign Court

And precise strike would work the same(or similarly sorry I don't have much time to crunch numbers) effectively rendering power attack a moot point and making dex an undumpable stat. With that in mind decent to good strength would become little more than icing.

Liberty's Edge

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master_marshmallow wrote:
... and DEX to damage should replace precise strike as a Deed.

Bad idea...At 6th level, I would not trade a possible +6 to DMG to almost every strike, for a maximized +6 to DMG which becomes a possible +12 on crits (which only happen 33% of the time). At Level 12, the +12 from precision strike is better than a +8 (if every resource is geared to it) with a +16 on a crit.

DEX to DMG really only matters from levels 1 to 4, after that precise strike provides more consistent damage.

Just my two cents


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Sir Frog wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
... and DEX to damage should replace precise strike as a Deed.

Bad idea...At 6th level, I would not trade a possible +6 to DMG to almost every strike, for a maximized +6 to DMG which becomes a possible +12 on crits (which only happen 33% of the time). At Level 12, the +12 from precision strike is better than a +8 (if every resource is geared to it) with a +16 on a crit.

DEX to DMG really only matters from levels 1 to 4, after that precise strike provides more consistent damage.

Just my two cents

Yeah, stat to damage certainly shouldn't be seriously considered as a replacement for precise strike, just as precise strike shouldn't be considered as a replacement for stat to damage.

Precise strike is there to mitigate the handicap you give yourself in fighting only with a weapon in one hand.


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Just popping int to say I'm quite liking the class, but the various action costs need to be moved around--far too many things vying for your once-per-turn swift action, when they could be changed to free or move-actions-also-available-as-part-of-a-full-attack. or expand how many swift actions you get per turn--only for use with panache things, natrually.

also parrycould do with being done AFTER the incoming attack, because otherwise you'll generally waste your panache.


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It's the most frustrating thing.
The class is so close to being fantastic for an archetype the system just doesn't otherwise support, but it's being held back by a handful of quite severe issues with painfully obvious solutions that just aren't being taken for unfathomable 'reasons'.

If you want to make the best steak, kill those sacred cows!

So close....

Sovereign Court

One more note on that ability I recommended. If it did replace stat to damage then it would make dex and cha the only logical stats to pump since dex increases your hit, and charisma gives you panache to spend to increase your damage.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Throne wrote:

Assuming a stat of 18.

Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, is straight-up lower damage, on regular hits and crits, than the current stat+precise strike, until 5th level.
Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, will never do better non-crit damage than the current stat+precise strike.
Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, pulls ahead of the current stat+precise strike on crit damage at lvl 5. 1pt ahead at 5th, 4pts ahead at 10th, 9pts ahead at 15th, and 12pts ahead at 20th.

Going to throw some WBL gear and buff spells at these numbers and see how they look then.

Remember before you start--the idea is to be a good enough option that you can play a Dex-based swashbuckler without Dex to damage, so it needs to be uniformly better than a Dex-based buckler who adds Str to damage and worse than a Dex-based buckler with Dex to damage (but close behind).

Since a Dex-based buckler will not likely have more than 14 Strength for a very long time, I think Lvl+2 doubling on a crit is definitely better than a Dex-based buckler who uses Str-to-damage and it doesn't need showing.

For the agile-user, I haven't done all the math, but I would be ecstatic if it turned out that someone using this proposal was behind by just enough to account for the +1 equivalent expenditure on agile of the Dex-to-damage buckler. Remember that you can't even afford agile until level 7 without spending more than half your gold on one item, although it's close at level 6, so I'd say fair to take it then.

I've started some number crunching too, using some non-optimized builds. With the current class functionality a Strength-Based build that ignores Charisma (grab Extra Grit) seems like the best way to get good early level damage along with strong damage at later levels.

I like Rogue Eidolon's suggestion. At level 1 & 2 the damage is less than a strength-focused Swashbuckler would have, but the class becomes much less MAD and I can have a slightly higher AC and Initiative. I also don't feel like I *need* to dump Charisma, so I'm less inclined to optimize in that manner.

Damage does start to scale nicely as you level, but not unreasonably so considering the classes you're replacing. The high crit range weapons are still the most appealing, but I could see using a 19-20x2 or a x3 weapon (with the new feat).


@ Flamdring
+2 damage, +4 @ 4, +6 @8, +8 @10.
As a replacement for stat-to-damage but stacking with Precise Strike, it's a damage nerf at the lower levels where the class already struggles.

As its own deed to make up for not being able to Piranha Strike with the better weapons for the class it's a nice idea. I especially like the option to boost it to 2-handed PA level with panache (but only really as an option for signature deed). My gut tells me it might work out overpowered in the mid to high levels though, so could use a little tuning.

It doesn't really work as a replacement for precise strike or stat to damage, but it does help by making power attack irrelevant.

@ Javaed
It still ends up worse than building for Strength, Dervish Dance, or Agile weapons, so people will still build for strength, Dervish Dance, or Agile weapons.
Arguments about Dervish Dance and Agile not being 'Core' are irrelevant, as has been explained time and time again.
All making you choose between +stat or precision damage is give you a worthless class feature.

Fortunately, making melee damage independant of any ability score carries enough complications and side-issues that it shouldn't be seriously considered, and so hopefully isn't being.


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I took out an 11th level swashbuckler last night. It was a conversion of a Fighter/Rogue that I'd made in 3.0 and converted to 3.5, and to Pathfinder. Things I noticed:

-I feel like I do a ton of damage with Precise Strike, although not doubling on a crit makes me feel like there's less of a difference between my crits and my regular attacks. Regenerating Panache is nice, but if I haven't spent anything yet, it feels like a bit of a let down (which I don't think crits should ever be). To be fair, this character previously had Telltale Blow (get sneak attack on a crit) so critical hits exploded in a way that would be difficult to duplicate. Particularly when I can spend panache and deal 1d6+30.

-I'm unsure if Swashbuckler's Finesse is usable on light weapons (typically finesse-able), and one-handed piercing weapons (rapiers, heavy picks, etc.), or light and one-handed piercing weapons exclusively. Specifically, would my Precise Strike work on an unarmed attack? I thought yes, my DM thought no, but both were unsure. If swashbucklers are limited to piercing weapons, it feels actually worse than Weapon Finesse, and is then oddly specific for piercing damage, which is just weird to me.

-Charmed Life felt incredibly appropriate to me. This character formerly had Force of Personality allowing Charisma for Will Saves, but this felt more appropriate.

-I like the changes to Opportune Parry and Riposte.

-I am very difficult to hit. I have a very high AC, and when I felt creatures were likely to hit me, I used Opportune Parry to great effect.

-I missed my skills from being a Rogue (who wouldn't?), particularly Stealth and Use Magic Device which, while Stealth is admittedly a bit of a stretch for a Swashbuckler, I felt that Use Magic Device actually fit the high Charisma character. This wasn't a deal-breaker for me, but made me have an "aww..." moment.

-I want to be able to retain my Dex, and attack without penalty, while climbing, balancing, swinging from a chandalier, etc. There was a time when my character used a grappling hook to move into a flanking position while dangling over a balcony (amazing moment), but while derring-do allowed me a small bonus to the skill, I felt vulnerable, and unable to hit while doing so.

-Lots of deeds require you to keep panache. I feel like the flavor of this class is one that I should want to "go for it", but I actually felt more tempted to horde my panache so that I would retain my effectiveness.


slayer_of_gellcor wrote:
-I'm unsure if Swashbuckler's Finesse is usable on light weapons (typically finesse-able), and one-handed piercing weapons (rapiers, heavy picks, etc.), or light and one-handed piercing weapons exclusively. Specifically, would my Precise Strike work on an unarmed attack? I thought yes, my DM thought no, but both were unsure. If swashbucklers are limited to piercing weapons, it feels actually worse than Weapon Finesse, and is then oddly specific for piercing damage, which is just weird to me.

The way I understand it, Swashbuckler Finesse works with any light piercing weapons or one-handed piercing weapons regardless of its stats or if it's normally finessable -- but nothing else. You can take the Slashing Grace feat to make it now apply to all light slashing weapons and one-handed slashing weapons. They can never finesse with blunt weapons, unless they actually take Weapon Finesse.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
slayer_of_gellcor wrote:
-I want to be able to retain my Dex, and attack without penalty, while climbing, balancing, swinging from a chandalier, etc. There was a time when my character used a grappling hook to move into a flanking position while dangling over a balcony (amazing moment), but while derring-do allowed me a small bonus to the skill, I felt vulnerable, and unable to hit while doing so.

I like that idea a lot.

slayer_of_gellcor wrote:
-Lots of deeds require you to keep panache. I feel like the flavor of this class is one that I should want to "go for it", but I actually felt more tempted to horde my panache so that I would retain my effectiveness.

Depending upon if Stephen gets back to me on part 2 of the "When do I get my Panache?" question, it may not be entirely unthinkable.

Basically, if I have 0 panache in the pool and confirm a critical hit, as written it appears I get the panache point before damage is rolled (upon confirmation). If so, I'm pretty sure I now get to add my level to damage since I have 1 in the pool for Precise Strike.

Now, he did clarify that if I started with 1 and went to 2, I could not power the Precise Strike kicker because it is for the "next" attack, and I am currently resolving an attack, making it not the next one. The first point, however, makes it at least thinkable to spend the last point once in awhile.


master_marshmallow wrote:


Also this class needs a good Fort Save, and it really should just be an alternate class of the Gunslinger and not Fighter, unless you specifically plan to have it be capable of taking fighter only feats in the final release.

The last line of the Bonus Feats ability: "Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for the purposes of meeting combat feat prerequisites."


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slayer_of_gellcor wrote:

-I'm unsure if Swashbuckler's Finesse is usable on light weapons (typically finesse-able), and one-handed piercing weapons (rapiers, heavy picks, etc.), or light and one-handed piercing weapons exclusively. Specifically, would my Precise Strike work on an unarmed attack? I thought yes, my DM thought no, but both were unsure. If swashbucklers are limited to piercing weapons, it feels actually worse than Weapon Finesse, and is then oddly specific for piercing damage, which is just weird to me.

-Charmed Life felt incredibly appropriate to me. This character formerly had Force of Personality allowing Charisma for Will Saves, but this felt more appropriate.

-I like the changes to Opportune Parry and Riposte.

There are a couple of Feats around which will let you deal piercing damage with unarmed attack. Snake Style springs to mind, because I've used it. I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread that Boar does likewise.

How did you find Charmed Life and Parry/Riposte competed for your Immediate action?
Especially considering everything else needing your swift/immediate, did you ever find you weren't able to function because you were essentially paralysed?
(This is going to be largely dependant on what sort of test you were playing, but having to choose between Dodging Panache's mobility -which really should be a signature of the class-, Opportune Parry and Riposte, double precise strike, and not having terrible saving throws, feels like you're being force to choose how to suck rather than getting to choose how to excel, to my eye)


Dispari Scuro wrote:
You can take the Slashing Grace feat to make it now apply to all light slashing weapons and one-handed slashing weapons.

Slashing Grace only applies to a single slashing weapon you choose, not all of them, =)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:


There will be a a great deal of build support outside the standard swashbuckler in the final book by way of both archetypes and feats.

Will there be a feat that allows gnome or halfling characters to mitigate the size disadvantage for parrying?

I appreciate that the -4 was reduced to -2, but I still think that this twist is unnecessarily punitive to small melee characters that are already placed at a disadvantage from their reduced weapon damage. It seems to me that swashbucklers should be the primary melee class for fun seeking gnomes. If anything gnomes should be encouraged by the rules to be swashbucklers as opposed to fighters or other melee.


Does anyone know how is precise strike supposed to interact with a one-handed lance while mounted? Because if it works how I want it to work then it's a lot of damage


I wouldn't mind a change like this to Charmed Life:

Charmed Life (Ex): At 2nd level, the swashbuckler gains
a knack for getting out of trouble. Three times per day, as a Free Action before attempting a saving throw, she can add her Charisma bonus to the result of the save. She must choose to do this before the roll is made, and may only apply one use of charmed life on a given save. She can do the same as an Immediate Action if she applies the bonus after the save, but this cannot be combined on the same save. At 6th level and every four levels thereaf ter, the number of times she can do this per day increases by one(to a maximum of 7 at 18th level).

That way, if you use the ability before your save, it is free, allowing you to use your Swift Action in the same round, but if you wait to after the save, you must spend that Swift to use the ability.


Swashbucklersdc wrote:

I wouldn't mind a change like this to Charmed Life:

Charmed Life (Ex): At 2nd level, the swashbuckler gains
a knack for getting out of trouble. Three times per day, as a Free Action before attempting a saving throw, she can add her Charisma bonus to the result of the save. She must choose to do this before the roll is made, and may only apply one use of charmed life on a given save. She can do the same as an Immediate Action if she applies the bonus after the save, but this cannot be combined on the same save. At 6th level and every four levels thereaf ter, the number of times she can do this per day increases by one(to a maximum of 7 at 18th level).

That way, if you use the ability before your save, it is free, allowing you to use your Swift Action in the same round, but if you wait to after the save, you must spend that Swift to use the ability.

Elegant, I like it.


All that's doing is making it so players either have to deal with the Swift Action Bottleneck or gamble that the ability actually helps. So it's an improvement, but I wouldn't call it elegant at all. And it still has limited uses per day.

Do people really think that a good Fort progression and straight Charisma to Will is too powerful? In a universe where Paladin 2 exists? Hell, it'll be a long time before a Swashbuckler can afford an improvement on his 14-16 starting Charisma, and that +3 to saves is exactly what he'd get out of the 2-level Monk dip that they'll be very likely to take anyway.


Athaleon wrote:
Do people really think that a good Fort progression and straight Charisma to Will is too powerful? In a universe where Paladin 2 exists?

Nope, i was one of the first to point out Charisma Bonus to Saves, but limited to your Swashbuckler level maximum. I am trying to work with what was given by the PDT and perhaps modify it a bit because of action economy. The straight Charisma Bonus to Saves isn't going to happen, but perhaps minor modifications to what is going to happen is still possible.


Swashbucklersdc wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Do people really think that a good Fort progression and straight Charisma to Will is too powerful? In a universe where Paladin 2 exists?

Nope, i was one of the first to point out Charisma Bonus to Saves, but limited to your Swashbuckler level maximum. I am trying to work with what was given by the PDT and perhaps modify it a bit because of action economy. The straight Charisma Bonus to Saves isn't going to happen, but perhaps minor modifications to what is going to happen is still possible.

That is disheartening. Maybe I was too optimistic to begin with.


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Blueskier wrote:
Does anyone know how is precise strike supposed to interact with a one-handed lance while mounted? Because if it works how I want it to work then it's a lot of damage

Two things:

1. A lance wielded in one hand while mounted is still a two-handed weapon, so it does not qualify for precise strike (though it does get 1-1/2 times strength and power attack). This is in contrast to other abilities like Jotungrip that allow you to treat a two-handed weapon like a one handed weapon. With Jotungrip you could precise strike with a two-handed weapon because it does become a one-handed weapon. So a 10ft reach and +2 to acrobatics checks with a Totem Spear is doable, and it would also work with finesse.

2. Even if it did work, precise strike damage would not be multiplied when charging or with spirited charge and certainly not on a crit either.

Sovereign Court

If derring-do let me make one additional attack during a move or as part of its check somehow, I'd be willing to play this class in an AP. Something like the attacking from a chandelier that was described before. To me it seems a swashbuckler should be able to attack while log rolling or swinging from a rope, or suspended from rafters or while entangled/tied up. The kinds of absurd things they are known for. I'd take a hit to damage for that.


Swashbucklersdc wrote:

I wouldn't mind a change like this to Charmed Life:

Charmed Life (Ex): At 2nd level, the swashbuckler gains
a knack for getting out of trouble. Three times per day, as a Free Action before attempting a saving throw, she can add her Charisma bonus to the result of the save. She must choose to do this before the roll is made, and may only apply one use of charmed life on a given save. She can do the same as an Immediate Action if she applies the bonus after the save, but this cannot be combined on the same save. At 6th level and every four levels thereaf ter, the number of times she can do this per day increases by one(to a maximum of 7 at 18th level).

That way, if you use the ability before your save, it is free, allowing you to use your Swift Action in the same round, but if you wait to after the save, you must spend that Swift to use the ability.

I was about to come on here and comment about Charmed Life....

the action economy of this class as something to be desired....

and I'll toss my name into the "dex for damage" hat... as things stand now I would never build a swashbuckler with anything but a Scimitar... and that sucks...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lord_Malkov wrote:


2. Even if it did work, precise strike damage would not be multiplied when charging or with spirited charge and certainly not on a crit either.

Bonus dice don't multiply, and precision damage doesn't multiply on a critical hit, but is there actually a rule that precision damage doesn't multiply? I haven't found one.


RJGrady wrote:
Lord_Malkov wrote:


2. Even if it did work, precise strike damage would not be multiplied when charging or with spirited charge and certainly not on a crit either.
Bonus dice don't multiply, and precision damage doesn't multiply on a critical hit, but is there actually a rule that precision damage doesn't multiply? I haven't found one.

From the last line of the first paragraph of Precise Strike

ACG wrote:
The extra damage of precise strike is precision damage, and isn’t multiplied with a critical hit.

Sovereign Court

At fifth level a swashbuckler who uses the derring-do deed to move though a threatened square without provoking AoO's should be able to make an AoO if she succeeds by five or more. At tenth level she should be able to combine this ability with other checks so long as the check is made to allow some kind of altered movement(chandelier?).

Sovereign Court

Or the ability to use derring do as part of a charge to change direction or move over obstacles/difficult terrain.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I know it's not optimal, as there is no Dex-to-damage option, but I was looking at creating a Vudrani-themed swashbuckler using an urumi. Am I correct in reading Slashing Grace that it will allow me to use all swashbuckler class features with the urumi?


Swashbucklersdc wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Do people really think that a good Fort progression and straight Charisma to Will is too powerful? In a universe where Paladin 2 exists?
Nope, i was one of the first to point out Charisma Bonus to Saves, but limited to your Swashbuckler level maximum. I am trying to work with what was given by the PDT and perhaps modify it a bit because of action economy. The straight Charisma Bonus to Saves isn't going to happen, but perhaps minor modifications to what is going to happen is still possible.

Now is exactly the time to argue why Swashbuckler should get that.

It may be another sacred cow the devs refuse to budge on at the expense of making the class work, but as long as they want feedback, give them the feedback that'll make the class the best it can be.
If they want to ignore that, present other ideas, sure, but make it clear when you think 'straight cha to saves is better, but if you won't do that, consider this instead'.
At the very least, it'll stop replies every few posts of 'no, what the class needs is better saves outright, or straight Cha to saves' when everyone knows that already.


Could we add a scaling progression taking from 3.5 Tome of Battle's Warblade, where as you level you get to add Cha to more things?

The Warblade (off the top of my head) gets to add Int to Initiative, attack bonus on attacks of opportunity, Reflex saves, confirm crit rolls...

Could the Swashbuckler add Cha to Initiative (with 1 Panache in pool), Will saves (1 P in pool), Acrobatics checks, maybe AC while climbing or using Acrobatics in place of their Dex during those moments and not being treated as flat-footed?


yeti1069 wrote:

Could we add a scaling progression taking from 3.5 Tome of Battle's Warblade, where as you level you get to add Cha to more things?

The Warblade (off the top of my head) gets to add Int to Initiative, attack bonus on attacks of opportunity, Reflex saves, confirm crit rolls...

Could the Swashbuckler add Cha to Initiative (with 1 Panache in pool), Will saves (1 P in pool), Acrobatics checks, maybe AC while climbing or using Acrobatics in place of their Dex during those moments and not being treated as flat-footed?

I am 100% in support of this idea.


I'd prefer Swashbuckler Initiative as Cha to init (simple +2 is uninteresting).
I'd even be supportive of Cha to damage, if they are just going to be unreasonably stubborn on dex.

Contributor

Arutema wrote:
So I know it's not optimal, as there is no Dex-to-damage option, but I was looking at creating a Vudrani-themed swashbuckler using an urumi. Am I correct in reading Slashing Grace that it will allow me to use all swashbuckler class features with the urumi?

Correct, but you would need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Urumi first.

While I love the idea of Slashing Grace, I hate that its essentially aSwashbuckler-only feat that is little more than a feat tax. What's worse, it only applies to one weapon at a time. I can understand the restriction for things like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization, but Slashing Grace is not a strong option currently.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Arutema wrote:
So I know it's not optimal, as there is no Dex-to-damage option, but I was looking at creating a Vudrani-themed swashbuckler using an urumi. Am I correct in reading Slashing Grace that it will allow me to use all swashbuckler class features with the urumi?

Correct, but you would need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Urumi first.

While I love the idea of Slashing Grace, I hate that its essentially aSwashbuckler-only feat that is little more than a feat tax. What's worse, it only applies to one weapon at a time. I can understand the restriction for things like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization, but Slashing Grace is not a strong option currently.

What it also does, is opens up room for things Duelist-PrC characters using weapons other than Rapier/Scimitar/Snake Style.


Throne wrote:

@ Flamdring

@ Javaed
It still ends up worse than building for Strength, Dervish Dance, or Agile weapons, so people will still build for strength, Dervish Dance, or Agile weapons.
Arguments about Dervish Dance and Agile not being 'Core' are irrelevant, as has been explained time and time again.
All making you choose between +stat or precision damage is give you a worthless class feature.

Fortunately, making melee damage independant of any ability score carries enough complications and side-issues that it shouldn't be seriously considered, and so hopefully isn't being.

I wouldn't say arguments about Dervish Dance & Agile not being Core are irrelevant. My current GMs only allow material from hard-cover PF books. The nearest PFS lodge is an hour drive and they only have weekend sessions I could possibly attend about four times a year. This isn't an unusual situation for players to find themselves in.

Choosing +Stat or +Precision allows you play either an offensive strength-based Swashbuckler or a more defensive dexterity-based one, without either option being terrible. It also eliminates the potential of the class simply being used as a dip-class. It also helps out with some of the issues with this class being so MAD if you can play a Dex-based build and not be terrible.


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Flamdring wrote:
One more note on that ability I recommended. If it did replace stat to damage then it would make dex and cha the only logical stats to pump since dex increases your hit, and charisma gives you panache to spend to increase your damage.

Also con, for the same reasons every character uses Con. Also some str because weapon+armor+clothing+rope+maybe a backup weapon adds up quicker than people realize. And if you want to actually be able to chat people up and climb around on the scenery you need at least a 12 int. It breaks down like so, in terms of what's comfortable as a baseline (assuming str gets flipped, fort's the good save, cha replaces wis for will, and that combat expertise bit gets cleared up):

Fighter- 18 14 14 12 14 3
Swashbucker- 14 18 14 12 3 14

Using the same array gives us the same base to hit, same bonus to damage, almost the same AC (fighter has more with the right armor, might not be able to afford it at character creation), same saves generally, looks good to me. The swash does have a higher reflex save, but when you need to deal with something at range, the fighter gets way more damage to add. From my experience flying enemies come up a lot more often than taking half damage from the occasional breath weapon or lightning bolt (actually, it's usually the same fight throwing both at you). Of course, if you don't want to pop a +2 bonus onto every save and just leave those stats at 10, it instead looks something like this:

Fighter- 18 14 10 12 10 3
Swashbucker- 14 18 10 12 3 14

Just con came down for swash, the fighter got to dump con and wis.

Now, if you're wondering where I pulled 14 from for a fighter's dex and swashbuckler's str-

It gives the fighter enough dex to potentially get a nice 18 AC at level 1, 19 with a breastplate, and if inclined, keep up with the expanding dex cap armor training gives if you pick up and upgrade a belt of physical perfection along the way. Plus decent ranged attacks and the ability to make use of acrobatics at low levels.

For the swashbuckler, it's all about the carrying capacity. For real. 14 str gives a light load of 58 lbs. Sounds like plenty, but you're either taking a rapier (2) or scimitar (4), and buckler (5) or shortsword (2). a chain shirt (25), you also need some clothes. Assuming you ever have to go outside or it ever gets cold, let's bet on explorer's outfit or winter clothing (8). Darn well better bring a rope. You always need rope, and everyone assumes someone else has some, probably the fighter, and that's you (10). You probably want a waterskin too, what with that pesky thing about needing to drink something every day (4). We're pretty close to maxing a light load already, let's get a masterwork backpack to help (-4), and since we're probably going to camp outside at some point, a blanket (3) and bedroll (5). Assuming you went classic with rapier and buckler, you're at 58 lbs. even. If your GM doesn't ignore the weight of coins, you can't even keep the change from buying that stuff,and there's still more it'd be nice to nab. A grappling hook (4) would go pretty well with that rope, and if you spring for silk (5), that leaves room for soap (1/2) and a mirror (1/2) to keep yourself looking properly dashing. You'd ideally want a shaving kit (1/2) too for your face and/or legs, and you maybe even a few torches (1 each). Your GM might even let you put a sconce (1/2) on your buckler. Trail rations are another biggie that tends to come up, hopefully someone else in the party has a little room for that.

You can probably shave the weight down a little further than that if you get creative, but these stat lines are comfortable minimums, i.e. as low as you can get before you really start looking at scary trade-offs. Drop the rope, backpack, and camping gear, you're still at 44 lbs. 40 if you ditch the water, and you really can't go lower than that on a level 1 budget. Eventually you can get a handy haversack, leaving you at 45 lbs. with everything but your clothes and equipment stowed away. In the long term you're switching to a mithral shirt to shave off 12.5 lbs. or maybe even dropping to padded armor slicing off a full 20, but those are both a ways down the road. Early on you need at least a 12 str for just clothes weapon(s) and armor. Exceed that limit and your AC drops like a rock, and the only way to shave weight down is with lighter armor which has the same effect.

Start at level 11, which a lot of people are doing for testing for some reason, and sure, lightweight magic gear lets you dump str a bit, but if you actually play from level 1, it's not happening. And even then, clothes, rapier, buckler, mithral shirt, 5 lbs. of boots/cloak/amulet/etc. is 32.5 lbs. Everything else can go in a bag of holding, but a haversack makes it min str 11, type I is 13, type II is 14, type III is 16, and carrying a type IV bag of holding requires a whopping 18 str. The fact that every party without a swashbuckler is more or less certain to have someone with that much str is why encumbrance rules are normally so easy to ignore.

Blueskier wrote:
Does anyone know how is precise strike supposed to interact with a one-handed lance while mounted? Because if it works how I want it to work then it's a lot of damage

Everything specifically calls out one-handed/light weapons being used in one hand. A lance is a 2-handed weapon even if you can hold it in one hand, and I believe, technically, the same is true for bastard swords and katanas. So those are all out.

Javaed wrote:
Choosing +Stat or +Precision allows you play either an offensive strength-based Swashbuckler or a more defensive dexterity-based one, without either option being terrible. It also eliminates the potential of the class simply being used as a dip-class. It also helps out with some of the issues with this class being so MAD if you can play a Dex-based build and not be terrible.

No. It doesn't. It just makes it even worse of an idea to try for a dex based one-handed build than it currently is. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason you would ever not want to build a swashbuckler that uses two weapons. You get your primary stat added to damage, you get the damage precise strike is there to replace, you do full damage on criticals, without needing to spend all your panache and double-confirm them, allowing you to spend panache in other ways (like parry/riposte every time you have a point free), and you make twice as many attack rolls, giving you nearly twice as many chances to get those crits in the first place. Shaves a pound or three off your minimum load too.

Precise strike is not a bonus to damage. It is a compensation for a weak style, which is currently not pulling its weight due to how crits work with it.


Throne wrote:

I'd prefer Swashbuckler Initiative as Cha to init (simple +2 is uninteresting).

I'd even be supportive of Cha to damage, if they are just going to be unreasonably stubborn on dex.

How about this?

Replace Charmed Life with the following:
Confident Combatant - Add Cha as bonus to Initiative

Unwavering Confidence - Add Cha as bonus to Will saves (maybe include language for this to not stack with paladin)

Confident Daredevil - When using Acrobatics, Climb, or when running, you are not treated as being flat-footed, and add your Cha bonus to your AC and attack rolls (so, when balancing on a narrow surface, hanging from a wall or rope, mostly)

Confident Duelist - Add Cha as bonus on CMB and CMD

Overwhelming Confidence - Add Cha as bonus to confirm critical threat rolls, and as damage on critical hits before multiplier (and multiplied on crits)

Armored in Confidence - When you're caught flat-footed or flanked, you may apply your Cha bonus to your AC.

Not sure which order works best--I'd think that the bonus to Will saves should come by level 6 at the latest.

Designer

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Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

Grand Lodge

this class needs dex or cha (or both or they should concour) to damage, as it is I think that anyone in my group if "forced" to play this class will bump cha and do a str build.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

I think I just filled the cup...


yeti1069 wrote:
Throne wrote:

I'd prefer Swashbuckler Initiative as Cha to init (simple +2 is uninteresting).

I'd even be supportive of Cha to damage, if they are just going to be unreasonably stubborn on dex.

How about this?

Replace Charmed Life with the following:
Confident Combatant - Add Cha as bonus to Initiative

Unwavering Confidence - Add Cha as bonus to Will saves (maybe include language for this to not stack with paladin)

Confident Daredevil - When using Acrobatics, Climb, or when running, you are not treated as being flat-footed, and add your Cha bonus to your AC and attack rolls (so, when balancing on a narrow surface, hanging from a wall or rope, mostly)

Confident Duelist - Add Cha as bonus on CMB and CMD

Overwhelming Confidence - Add Cha as bonus to confirm critical threat rolls, and as damage on critical hits before multiplier (and multiplied on crits)

Armored in Confidence - When you're caught flat-footed or flanked, you may apply your Cha bonus to your AC.

Not sure which order works best--I'd think that the bonus to Will saves should come by level 6 at the latest.

I like that. It fills in all the deadish levels on the chart, adds value to charisma, and frees up one of those 3rd level deeds (is there a reason we're married to the same count at a given level as a gunslinger?) for something more interesting... or really, it frees up a level 1 slot, because parry/riposte really does not need to be attainable with a single level dip.

Still needs a good fort save though, and something to set it apart from other classes that isn't just using different math to get the same result.


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Shouldn't the Swashbuckler get Uncanny Dodge?

I'd love to see the Swashbuckler get the ability to use the Elusive Target feat from 3.5's Complete Warrior, which has 3 abilities (the feat works off of the old Dodge rules when you had to declare a target, but could be reworked a little):

-Negate Power Attack: If selected target attacks you with Power Attack active, you don't take the extra damage, but they still suffer the penalty.

-Diverting Defense: When flanked, the first attack made against you by one of the flankers who you have selected as your Dodge target automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead;it rolls an attack roll as normal, and the attacked foe is considered flat-footed against that attack. Additional attacks are resolved normally.

-Cause Overreach: When you provoke an AoO from moving out of a threatened square, if the attack misses, you may make a free trip attempt against that enemy.

I've always REALLY liked Diverting Defense in particular--it's fun, amusing, and very much in flavor for this sort of character.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

I

LOVE

YOU GUYS!!!!

Sovereign Court

There are already several ways to get DEX to damage. The class ,as is, is fine with the only real weakness being the lack of a good Fort save. The STR build is definitely not better. I will gladly pit a DEX build vs a STR build anytime. As far as tweaking goes, besides the Fort save issue, I really like Throne's idea for CHA abilities as a level tiered effect.


Javaed wrote:
I wouldn't say arguments about Dervish Dance & Agile not being Core are irrelevant. My current GMs only allow material from hard-cover PF books. The nearest PFS lodge is an hour drive and they only have weekend sessions I could possibly attend about four times a year. This isn't an unusual situation for players to find themselves in.

It might not be an unusual situation, but there's nothing backing up any claim that it's more common than the alternative.

Most games I've seen (anecdotal, I know, but that seems to be what we're going with here) are either CRB only or srd website with no 3rd party. Swashbuckler won't be used anyway in CRB only games.

Javaed wrote:
Choosing +Stat or +Precision allows you play either an offensive strength-based Swashbuckler or a more defensive dexterity-based one, without either option being terrible. It also eliminates the potential of the class simply being used as a dip-class. It also helps out with some of the issues with this class being so MAD if you can play a Dex-based build and not be terrible.

If the best you can manage with a dex-based archetype (in the traditional sense, not the sub-class system) is to be 'not terrible', you've failed.

+stat or +Precision is a straight-up damage nerf over where the class currently stands, for the benefit of... dex builds not being terrible compared to strength, but both being terrible generally?
No thanks.

And that's without even looking into the sorts of issues you're going to run into down the line with a fighty type whose damage is independent of an ability score, with regards to buff spells and magic items.


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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

Applying only to one-handed or light piercing weapons and requiring weapon finesse I assume?

Also, have you reconsidered precise strike being precision damage? If you drop the option to spend panache for extra it technically loses some versatility (since you can't save your crit damage for later, or add extra when you have panache from a source other than a crit), but as it stands, you're pretty much stuck with a choice of doubling your damage on a crit like every other character in the game, or actually getting to use any of your other class features, with nothing to show for it but adding a buckler to your AC.

And again, "every other character" includes two-weapon swashbucklers, who already have the edge of faster panache flow.

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