Revised Swashbuckler Discussion


Class Discussion

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Cheapy wrote:
Googleshng wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Holy playtest, batman!

I don't think a Lyrakien Swashbuckler13/Master of Many Styles 1 with the equipment budget of a level 16 PC is a particularly useful data point. This one is actually a real play example if we're fishing. Like a lot of classes, a high level swashbuckler geared up and at full power to fight a single enemy tends to be really good at it, but that's not what happens when you actually play the game.

Also I'm curious now if anyone can come up with a way to build a 15-point-buy swashbuckler who is capable of surviving the second chapter of Rise of the Runelords while still contributing in some fashion.

Nah, the racial hit die are just holding the swash back. It is a bit of a strange playtest, I totally agree, but the sheer magnitude of difference in levels and CRs is quite telling. Someone without powerful magics has no right to kill a CR 25 creature solo, when they are basically level 14, with 3 (by now mostly useless) HD from race.

Can't wait to read the thread you linked though!

Is book 2 of RotRL known to be particularly deadly?

The ghouls and ghasts have been known to be a problem for low fort saves.. Most often rogues and bard who think they belong on the front line.


VargrBoartusk wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Googleshng wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Holy playtest, batman!

I don't think a Lyrakien Swashbuckler13/Master of Many Styles 1 with the equipment budget of a level 16 PC is a particularly useful data point. This one is actually a real play example if we're fishing. Like a lot of classes, a high level swashbuckler geared up and at full power to fight a single enemy tends to be really good at it, but that's not what happens when you actually play the game.

Also I'm curious now if anyone can come up with a way to build a 15-point-buy swashbuckler who is capable of surviving the second chapter of Rise of the Runelords while still contributing in some fashion.

Nah, the racial hit die are just holding the swash back. It is a bit of a strange playtest, I totally agree, but the sheer magnitude of difference in levels and CRs is quite telling. Someone without powerful magics has no right to kill a CR 25 creature solo, when they are basically level 14, with 3 (by now mostly useless) HD from race.

Can't wait to read the thread you linked though!

Is book 2 of RotRL known to be particularly deadly?

The ghouls and ghasts have been known to be a problem for low fort saves.. Most often rogues and bard who think they belong on the front line.

Ah yea, I can certainly see how lots of fort saves would stress anyone, especially a poor fort save. Even with a Good Fort save, you have a too-high-for-comfort chance of failing it. Combine that with the sheer number of saves it sounds like you have to make and...

How many alchemist fires does it take to burn a house down?


Hmmm... feral combat training Ghoul/Brawler...

Swashy better run, cause he's comin' to get ya!


Although, given the to-hit bonus of ghouls, seems like being hit is going to require a pretty lucky die roll. The guy linked above would need the ghouls to roll 18+ just to have a chance to paralyze poor swashywashy, and with some smart fighting, seems like you could easily give the ghoul only one chance to attack each turn.

Intriguing.


Tels wrote:

Hmmm... feral combat training Ghoul/Brawler...

Swashy better run, cause he's comin' to get ya!

There's a pun in there. I just know it. And it's a really bad one.

I'll wait for Orthos or Mikaze to make it.


Googleshng wrote:
3) Crazy swashbuckler performance has a really narrow niche. I'm going to need you to walk me through how this character here does any damage at range, because I know precise strike is melee only, and I'm 99.9% sure this new dex-to-damage feat is not going to apply to ranged attacks of any sort. We're limited to flightless enemies that properly bleed and take critical hits, with no way of consistently staying outside of a 5' reach. In my experience, around the time swashbucklers mature into a real serious threat, you're generally fighting large creatures with perfect flight, ranged attacks, the ability to summon elementals... lots of things that really hamper the swashbuckler's ability to go do her thing. Seems to me to generally fit the whole narrower circumstances, bigger edge notion behind most melee classes. Plus, even if the fort save gets fixed, find a way to deny dex to a swashbuckler and they have a Very Bad Day. They're surprisingly vulnerable to grappling too. Plenty of things with grab on them.

Glad to help! As an aside, I really appreciate all this playtesting you are doing. It's helped me learn a lot about the Swash.

Anyway, here's where I can help clarify:

1) Precise Strike does apply at range. They added that.

2) Dervish Dance works for thrown scimitars right now, so I see no reason why McFarland's Maneuver (or whatever we call it) would not. I'm assuming the exact same parameters as Dervish Dance except you pick any weapon (so off-hand must be empty, etc). If that's not fine for you, then replace one of the enhancement of the starknife with agile, reducing accuracy and damage by 1, and with the extra feat take Weapon Specialization. I never was within one of missing with Tyali, so this actually is a pure damage increase, giving 12 extra damage over the course of the battle.

3) It's very hard to deny Dex to a level 11+ Swashbuckler. It can be done, but very few things in the game can do it without at least giving a save.

4) Swashbuckler has a marvelous way to get out of reach--Dodging Panache + 5 foot step worked in this example. A horribly evil idea I had was the following: Start your turn at edge of enemy's reach. Intentionally throw a weapon despite being in AoO range, provoking AoO. Use Dodging Panache to move back 5 feet. Now move back 5 more with 5 foot step. Congratulations, they cannot full attack you, even though you got a full attack!

5) It turns out grappling wasn't a concern for Tyali, but if it had mattered, she had 62 CMD due to her penalties for size and Str. This means te Balor Lord would need a Natural 20 to Grapple her.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Quadruply for one who already has a poor Fort save.

Hope you never get Disinetgrated, Polymorphed, Poisoned, contract a Disease, or fall victim to any one of most likely literally hundreds of ways a poor Fort save can screw you over royally.

Yes, he got paralyzed like every time despite lowish DCs. But that's not too shocking given a 10 Con. By the way, he was able to have 10 Con because the GM gave them all max hit points at all levels as a house rule (which certainly WOULD disincentivize Con, but it makes the whole thing a poor platform for a playtest since that's a major houserule).

Yeah, but I've put... 5 swashbucklers through it and the same thing happened to each. You can try to put your AC through the roof, you can try and get the saves up with good con and cha to back it up with charmed life, but all charmed life gets you is the save of a fighter with the same good con for the first 3 hits, and you're going to take more than 3 hits. The gap between good and bad saves spreads too fast to keep up no matter what you do. A 20 con swashbuckler is as good as a 14 con fighter against these here CR 1 monsters, but you can't scale that up. Few levels down the road you'd be seriously behind again.

I feel I should stress though- Charmed life makes a pretty good bandaid for bad reflex and will saves! Those come one at a time, in small quantities, not buried in a bunch of attacks you've blown your immediate action parrying, generally.


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!!!

'cuz this is BRAWLERRR, brawwwlerr night!
And no one's gonna save swashy from the beast about to strike


Googleshng wrote:
because I know precise strike is melee only

Where did they make that change?

Quote:
Precise Strike (Ex):... She can even use this ability with thrown melee light or one-handed piercing thrown melee weapons, as long as the target is within 30 feet of her.

I checked the playtest, the tunnel ended and combat began at 30 feet.


Orthos and Mikaze, your services are no longer necessary, but not unwanted.


30' may not be melee, but it's generally not what most groups would consider a ranged combat, either.


Throne wrote:
30' may not be melee, but it's generally not what most groups would consider a ranged combat, either.

In this case, the only point of ranged is to get another attack with Rapid Shot and to make a full attack without advancing. Tyali is not exactly crippled if she goes into melee, since all she loses is Rapid and Point Blank. She's actually a great switch-hitter.


Throne wrote:
30' may not be melee, but it's generally not what most groups would consider a ranged combat, either.

Sure it is! Especially if you have a gunslinger, a rogue, a ninja, a witch, anyone who is an archer and wants a free +1 to hit and damage, any type of martial character who has a ranged weapon for when they stabby thing won't work, etc, etc ...


Baroncognito wrote:
Googleshng wrote:
because I know precise strike is melee only

Where did they make that change?

Quote:
Precise Strike (Ex):... She can even use this ability with thrown melee light or one-handed piercing thrown melee weapons, as long as the target is within 30 feet of her.
I checked the playtest, the tunnel ended and combat began at 30 feet.

They made that change between the first and second playtest documents. Nifty! Even more benefit to fighting double-dagger style. Still doesn't help in a fight against a dragon though, or if you're really dumping str through the floor, but it's nice not to be completely up the creek on ranged damage.


Cheapy wrote:
Throne wrote:
30' may not be melee, but it's generally not what most groups would consider a ranged combat, either.
Sure it is! Especially if you have a gunslinger, a rogue, a ninja, a witch, anyone who is an archer and wants a free +1 to hit and damage, any type of martial character who has a ranged weapon for when they stabby thing won't work, etc, etc ...

My point is that most things which are going to force you to fight them at range generally aren't going to be obliging enough to sit at point-blank for you.

Maybe not outside comp-longbow's first increment, but probably not inside the musket-master's bad-touch.


Throne wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Throne wrote:
30' may not be melee, but it's generally not what most groups would consider a ranged combat, either.
Sure it is! Especially if you have a gunslinger, a rogue, a ninja, a witch, anyone who is an archer and wants a free +1 to hit and damage, any type of martial character who has a ranged weapon for when they stabby thing won't work, etc, etc ...

My point is that most things which are going to force you to fight them at range generally aren't going to be obliging enough to sit at point-blank for you.

Maybe not outside comp-longbow's first increment, but probably not inside the musket-master's bad-touch.

It's true, but that's also the same range limit on witch hexes, for instance, and I haven't very often seen a witch rendered unable to ever use her hexes because the enemy kept to a greater than 30 foot distance. Also, an enemy that is maintaining a distance gap is an enemy that isn't full attacking, which is usually a good thing. For anything other than obnoxiously-fast foes like dragons (who don't have the ability to be archers because that would be scary!), it probably also means that the enemy can't be even using a standard action to attack you, since otherwise double-moves or even sprints can close the gap. It also usually means that the enemy is not able to defend a particular objective, such as a location or site if they keep running away, so a PC may be able to complete their mission and leave when faced with such a foe.


Googleshng wrote:
Baroncognito wrote:
Googleshng wrote:
because I know precise strike is melee only

Where did they make that change?

Quote:
Precise Strike (Ex):... She can even use this ability with thrown melee light or one-handed piercing thrown melee weapons, as long as the target is within 30 feet of her.
I checked the playtest, the tunnel ended and combat began at 30 feet.
They made that change between the first and second playtest documents. Nifty! Even more benefit to fighting double-dagger style. Still doesn't help in a fight against a dragon though, or if you're really dumping str through the floor, but it's nice not to be completely up the creek on ranged damage.

I kinda wanna make a swashbuckler with daggers of doubling, just for that ability.

Or I guess blinkback belt.


Tyali has blinkback belt, but the ioun cost to overcome having it is steep.


Throne wrote:
30' may not be melee, but it's generally not what most groups would consider a ranged combat, either.

Well, unless you're a gunslinger =P.


Hey Googleshng! What's the largest gap between swashbuckler character levels and CR you think you could manage a victory out of?


Cheapy wrote:
Hey Googleshng! What's the largest gap between swashbuckler character levels and CR you think you could manage a victory out of?

It depends on what the rest of your party is more than anything. From where I sit, they don't have more damage output than any other frontliner, at least before getting bleeds on every hit. Find a straight up melee thing that just stands there and hits you in the face, they do well. Anything with equipment and class levels they're real nice with. Monsters that come at you with +20 to hit on a big pile of naturals, parry/riposte loses appeal. I still see them as on par with a fighter/paladin/barbarian with renal failure for the most part.

Also, interesting as this new-to-me thrown dagger revelation is, getting back to the fort save drum I keep beating. I just glanced around at what other APs I have available for testing to see if any were survivable with a low fort save. Short answer, not that I've found no. More interesting answer- How does a swashbuckler work in Curse of the Crimson Throne?

Story wise, if you are ever going to play a swashbuckler, a PF conversion of this AP is the place to do it. There's an NPC who's just flat out a fancy flamboyant swashbuckler looking to take someone under his wing introduced right away. So, one might ask, how badly would the low fort save hurt anyone attempting it for that particular AP?

Spoiler:
Chapter 2 entirely revolves around a super nasty plague the PCs will constantly be exposed to which clerics can't keep up with on curing. Plus a lot of undead. Plus rakshasas to prey on the bad will save... yeah it's a huge death sentence.

Also, any more thoughts on the deed front? People have been weirdly silent on that.


Solo! Because we've already seen playtests that show it's possible, and it's exciting!

Oooh, maybe I can pick a creature out and throw it against your swash. Hmmmmm, wonder if I have time for that.


I'd also say that Skull and Shackles would be a better fit.

'cuz...yea.


Cheapy wrote:
Tels wrote:

Hmmm... feral combat training Ghoul/Brawler...

Swashy better run, cause he's comin' to get ya!

There's a pun in there. I just know it. And it's a really bad one.

I'll wait for Orthos or Mikaze to make it.

There's another really bad joke about this, but I won't post it, cause I just know it'll get removed. :P

Googleshng wrote:

Interesting as this new revelation is, getting back to the fort save drum I keep beating. I just glanced around at what other APs I have available for testing to see if any were survivable with a low fort save. Short answer, not that I've found no. More interesting answer- How does a swashbuckler work in Curse of the Crimson Throne?

Story wise, if you are ever going to play a swashbuckler, a PF conversion of this AP is the place to do it. There's an NPC who's just flat out a fancy flamboyant swashbuckler looking to take someone under his wing introduced right away. So, one might ask, how badly would the low fort save hurt anyone attempting it for that particular AP?

Spoiler:
Chapter 2 entirely revolves around a super nasty plague the PCs will constantly be exposed to which clerics can't keep up with on curing. Plus a lot of undead. Plus rakshasas to prey on the bad will save... yeah it's a huge death sentence.

Also, any more thoughts on the deed front? People have been weirdly silent on that.

CotCT is worse than that, you're forgetting about Skeletons of Scarwall. I have a hard time picturing a Swashy making it through that murder house without being a huge detriment and/or drain on party resources. Chances are high, the Swashy will die pretty quickly due to the Fort/Will saves that are fairly rampant.

Skeletons of Scarwall:
Especially once they go up against the Bishop, this guy is an infamous TPK machine.

This post (clicky!) and the following outline many of the dangers of Scarwall. Caution, the whole thread (the post I linked included) is full of spoilers. It came about from a question on whether or not to include some DMPCs into Scarwall to augment the healing of the party.


Cheapy wrote:

I'd also say that Skull and Shackles would be a better fit.

'cuz...yea.

Your swashbuckler dies to the most dangerous encounter in that Adventure path, in book one.

Spoiler:
The grog. Con damage is NASTY.


Cheapy wrote:

I'd also say that Skull and Shackles would be a better fit.

'cuz...yea.

I might also suggest Council of Thieves, it's a pretty urban AP.


I recently dropped out of my Kingmaker campaign (me vs GM issues) but we played up through the 3rd book and didn't really encounter many nasty saves. Well, none that the GM didn't intentionally throw in (and told us he added).

Swashbuckler might not fit the flavor, but Kingmaker might be the safest AP for him. Save wise anyway.

[Edit] Although... there is the Aldori Sword Lords. A Swashbuckler could be a failed student/potential rival Master.


I'm most of the way through Kingmaker myself, but I'm playing a paladin and laughing off all the saves. It does seem like one of the more survivable APs for a swashbuckler (Legacy of Fire is another) but all you need is one pack of wyverns, or a beefed up mohrg, etc. The real point though is I didn't pick an AP that's atypical in having a big stretch where you get pounded with potentially deadly fort saves. Again, this is why every class expected to spend time on the front lines gets a good fort save.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I'd also say that Skull and Shackles would be a better fit.

'cuz...yea.

Your swashbuckler dies to the most dangerous encounter in that Adventure path, in book one.

** spoiler omitted **

It's been well established that that kills ANYONE. Even guys with great fort saves.

You're not supposed to drink it any how, and can use a number of skills to avoid drinking it.

Not a good counter argument at all :-P


Hmm, OK. So let's say they get a good fort save. What should they give up?


Cheapy wrote:
Hmm, OK. So let's say they get a good fort save. What should they give up?

Why should they give up anything? A good Fort save is not an extra. It's a necessity.


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I wouldn't be unhappy to see the Swashbuckler have a good Fort save, but whether or not they get one they need to lose things in a way that will hurt them at high levels but will not hurt them at lower levels.


Lemmy wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Hmm, OK. So let's say they get a good fort save. What should they give up?
Why should they give up anything? A good Fort save is not an extra. It's a necessity.

I'm fine with them changing Fort for Reflex. With the potential for Dex to damage, a high number of parries and other things, the Swash is already going to have a sufficient reflex save for most things* so having a good Reflex is likely unnecessary.

*The exception being an optimized Dazeing spell caster.


Well, what should they give up? From your playtest character:

- Only 3 AC out of 48 (58 vs. one enemy) comes from the Swashbuckler

- Five feats (effectively) out of sixteen come from the Swashbuckler

- In the eye-popping 407 damage full attack routine, 78 came from "passive" Precise Strike. 13 more came from spending a Swift Action and a Panache on an "active" Precise Strike. With no Precise Strike at all (a distinct possibility if it only works on Sneak Attackable enemies), that routine would still have done 316 damage. How much damage can we expect a similarly geared and optimized Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, etc. to do with a full attack routine?

- The Dex to Damage feat provided a good bit of damage, but you could have done that anyways (albeit not with a thrown weapon) with Dervish Dance. And it's unlikely your DM would let you take say, Osyluth Guile but not Dervish Dance.

- I wouldn't discount the advantage of using the Lyrakien, because what would you get if you'd had those two more Swashbuckler levels? +1 Nimble, +2 BAB, +1 to all saves, and some mediocre deeds. This is set against the advantages of Tiny size and some hefty ability score increases over what a regular PC is likely to have.

It's certainly a powerful character, I'm not questioning that. But how would the character have fared with Paladin or Fighter levels in place of Swashbuckler? Also we have no idea what McFarland's Maneuver will actually look like - It may be unusable with a thrown weapon.


Athaleon wrote:

Well, what should they give up? From your playtest character:

- Only 3 AC out of 48 (58 vs. one enemy) comes from the Swashbuckler

Indeed, a drop in the bucket.

Quote:
- Five feats (effectively) out of sixteen come from the Swashbuckler

And that's a large percentage, nearly one in every three.

Quote:
- In the eye-popping 407 damage full attack routine, 78 came from "passive" Precise Strike. 13 more came from spending a Swift Action and a Panache on an "active" Precise Strike. With no Precise Strike at all (a distinct possibility if it only works on Sneak Attackable enemies), that routine would still have done 316 damage. How much damage can we expect a similarly geared and optimized Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, etc. to do with a full attack routine?

And another 50 came from Swashbuckler Weapon Training. And I guess 20 came from allowing Swash to take Weapon Specialization, normally a Fighter-only feat. So in theory the exact same character having lost all Swash features (say she is a straight Warrior13 or something and somehow makes up the missing feats) would have lost 70 more, leaving 246 left. 161, then, comes from the class's features. That is almost eactly 40% of the damage.

Quote:
- I wouldn't discount the advantage of using the Lyrakien, because what would you get if you'd had those two more Swashbuckler levels? +1 Nimble, +2 BAB, +1 to all saves, and some mediocre deeds. This is set against the advantages of Tiny size and some hefty ability score increases over what a regular PC is likely to have.

Tiny does also have Parry penalties. She would have succeeded the one parry without the -6. I would have rather had two paladin levels and an 18-20/x2 weapon rather than lyrakien and the starknife, pretty much any day of the week.

Quote:
Also we have no idea what McFarland's Maneuver will actually look like - It may be unusable with a thrown weapon.

I based it entirely on Dervish Dance. If you like, change the weapon to agile, subtract 1 enhancement, and add the feat Greater Weapon Specialization. That would actually increase her damage by 1 and lower accuracy by 1, which in thise case, since she never exactly hit, would buff her.

Lantern Lodge

A question about recovery, or dodging panache or whatever its called now. :)

If I use it to move as my immediate action, can I take a 5' step when my turn comes around?

Don't immediate actions generally count as the swift action on your turn? Does moving as an immediate action mean you've moved on your turn and have lost the chance for a 5' step?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns Subscriber

5' step is a free action that you can only take once a turn if you haven't otherwise moved. Not a swift action. Hope that helps.


Swashbuckler Weapon Training provides a significant bonus, but it only looks like a huge amount when compared to a class with no class features.

Two Paladin levels are a great investment for anyone with high Charisma and no casting, but again, what if you knocked Swashbuckler back to 11 and took both Lyrakien and Paladin 2?


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
I wouldn't be unhappy to see the Swashbuckler have a good Fort save, but whether or not they get one they need to lose things in a way that will hurt them at high levels but will not hurt them at lower levels.

Nah, they really don't.


Athaleon wrote:

Swashbuckler Weapon Training provides a significant bonus, but it only looks like a huge amount when compared to a class with no class features.

Two Paladin levels are a great investment for anyone with high Charisma and no casting, but again, what if you knocked Swashbuckler back to 11 and took both Lyrakien and Paladin 2?

Assuming such a thing was even possible for a [Chaotic] outsider, we lose a feat and +1 from SWT and gain huge amounts on our once a day smite target (but then smite is gone against Treerazer when we kill him later that day). The save gain is extremely good. But even then we'd still be much stronger if we lost lyrakien and had a total of 4 levels (in Oath of Vengeance paladin) to trade our many many Lay on Hands for lots of extra smites. I believe that Swash11/Pal4/Monk1 is a local optimum, though the loss of two feats could be annoying, I think it's worth it.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Athaleon wrote:

Swashbuckler Weapon Training provides a significant bonus, but it only looks like a huge amount when compared to a class with no class features.

Two Paladin levels are a great investment for anyone with high Charisma and no casting, but again, what if you knocked Swashbuckler back to 11 and took both Lyrakien and Paladin 2?

Assuming such a thing was even possible for a [Chaotic] outsider, we lose a feat and +1 from SWT and gain huge amounts on our once a day smite target (but then smite is gone against Treerazer when we kill him later that day). The save gain is extremely good. But even then we'd still be much stronger if we lost lyrakien and had a total of 4 levels (in Oath of Vengeance paladin) to trade our many many Lay on Hands for lots of extra smites. I believe that Swash11/Pal4/Monk1 is a local optimum, though the loss of two feats could be annoying, I think it's worth it.

Bleh, forgot about pesky alignments.

Anyway, isn't that a sign that the Swashbuckler needs better class features at high levels, not worse? Not necessarily more damage (again, keeping it in line with other full-BAB classes) but more incentive to go past level 11?


Athaleon wrote:
But how would the character have fared with Paladin or Fighter levels in place of Swashbuckler?

I missed this one--let's do Fighter since it's a parent class and can also kick ass all day long. If we do any kind of two-handed falchion fighter, the balor will first of all notice him from farther than Tyali, but even if that didn't happen: Falchion guy gets 20 Point Buy and starts with 18 14 14 10 10 10. Buys +5 Mithral Fullplate, +5 Amulet of Nat Armor, +5 Ring of Protection, Ioun Stone, Jingasa, Ioun Stone for Dex. AC is 39. Maybe he takes Dodge too for 40. With that AC, the Balor Lord can tear him into shreds, and there's not much more he can buy.

If he builds a crazy Swashbuckler-style build with the off-hand free, then his damage is way way worse than the Swash, but this would work in general to survive the fight.

Sword and Shield TWF build can put up a solid enough AC to survive the threat (6-8 more), but it's ponderous and extremely feat heavy, and it's still taking hits from the lord, it can just probably survive long enough to finish the job.


Tels wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Hmm, OK. So let's say they get a good fort save. What should they give up?
Why should they give up anything? A good Fort save is not an extra. It's a necessity.

I'm fine with them changing Fort for Reflex. With the potential for Dex to damage, a high number of parries and other things, the Swash is already going to have a sufficient reflex save for most things* so having a good Reflex is likely unnecessary.

*The exception being an optimized Dazeing spell caster.

Hmmmm.

This post says a lot.


Athaleon wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Athaleon wrote:

Swashbuckler Weapon Training provides a significant bonus, but it only looks like a huge amount when compared to a class with no class features.

Two Paladin levels are a great investment for anyone with high Charisma and no casting, but again, what if you knocked Swashbuckler back to 11 and took both Lyrakien and Paladin 2?

Assuming such a thing was even possible for a [Chaotic] outsider, we lose a feat and +1 from SWT and gain huge amounts on our once a day smite target (but then smite is gone against Treerazer when we kill him later that day). The save gain is extremely good. But even then we'd still be much stronger if we lost lyrakien and had a total of 4 levels (in Oath of Vengeance paladin) to trade our many many Lay on Hands for lots of extra smites. I believe that Swash11/Pal4/Monk1 is a local optimum, though the loss of two feats could be annoying, I think it's worth it.

Bleh, forgot about pesky alignments.

Anyway, isn't that a sign that the Swashbuckler needs better class features at high levels, not worse? Not necessarily more damage (again, keeping it in line with other full-BAB classes) but more incentive to go past level 11?

Oh there's lots of good incentives to go past level 11--Greater Weapon Specialization, increased Swash training (it's worth noting that playtest Tyali gets an incredible +6 to hit from her Swash special abilities that theoretical Warrior Tyali wouldn't get, and I'm a big fan of accuracy especially when you can parry with it), and Precise Strike constantly rising each level. It's true that the deeds aren't that impressive from 12-19, but just the class itself is numerically extremely strong. The local optimum effect is merely because Paladin4 Oath of Vengeance is an amazing dip for Swash. After that, Swash levels would be much much better than Paladin levels.


Those are all useful abilities, but I still think it's a problem that after people get Swashbuckler 11 and their 5 levels of dips, they're just going to coast on Swashbuckler for more static attack and damage bonuses. A bonus feat and another use of Charmed Life, and some deeds no one cares about.


Athaleon wrote:
Those are all useful abilities, but I still think it's a problem that after people get Swashbuckler 11 and their 5 levels of dips, they're just going to coast on Swashbuckler for more static attack and damage bonuses. A bonus feat and another use of Charmed Life, and some deeds no one cares about.

Hey, if we make the coasting static part weaker overall, I'm game for something really sweet at higher levels. Heck, I like the mobility idea people keep talking about, but to put in new things, we need to lessen the static numeric advantages. Actually, just flat-out removing Swashbuckler Weapon Training would probably be a big start?

Lantern Lodge

Knick wrote:
5' step is a free action that you can only take once a turn if you haven't otherwise moved. Not a swift action. Hope that helps.

It's the 'haven't otherwise moved' bit that concerns me. Does the deed count as a move on your turn? I suspect it does, which makes the deed even more problematic; not only are you giving up your swift action, you're also giving up your 5' step.


Cheapy wrote:
Hmm, OK. So let's say they get a good fort save. What should they give up?

I still see the class as a bit under par, useful class feature wise but... if you only want them to have a single good save, fort instead of reflex. Reflex saves are for people springing traps and standing around behind the frontliners. Fort's what you need when you are the front line.


I'd be fine losing Precise Strike and access to Weapon Specialization if that's what's necessary for getting good Fort saves... Hell, I wouldn't mind even losing both of them. I don't really care about an extra +2 to damage, I'm more worried about being able to survive encounters.

SBs shouldn't be about DPR, they should be about mobility. I think making Fighter one of the parent classes was a huge mistake, but since that won't change, I say SBs can lose some damage options in favor of better maneuver and/or mobility options and a good Fort save.


Lemmy wrote:

I'd be fine losing Precise Strike and access to Weapon Specialization if that's what's necessary for getting good Fort saves... Hell, I wouldn't mind even losing both of them. I don't really care about an extra +2 to damage, I'm more worried about being able to survive encounters.

SBs shouldn't be about DPR, they should be about mobility. I think making Fighter one of the parent classes was a huge mistake, but since that won't change, I say SBs can lose some damage options in favor of better maneuver and/or mobility options and a good Fort save.

I would be interested to see SB get lots of amazing utility and mobility options and a strong Fort save while losing that much DPR. Tell you what Lemmy--when a year goes by and the book comes out, if Swash comes out and has too much DPR and too few utility and mobility options that make you want to imagine the cinematic scenes from swashbuckler books and films, remind me and I will write an archetype for it that trades away the damage to gain such abilities. I'm sure I can find a 3pp that will publish it.

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