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Now let us take a look at what dex does CURRENTLY:
1)AC
2)Reflex
3)Initiative
4)to hit for ranged attacks(meaning if a fighter wants ranged at all, he will still have to have some dex to help with that.)
5)Many, many skills that are useful even in combat including acrobatics
6)to hit with weapon finesse.
7)cmb with agile maneuvers.
And funny how melee characters across the board keep picking Strength despite all of these wonderful things you listed. Because they really don't add much. I won't go into it again on this thread, except to say that numbers 6 and 7 are weak at best.
Also, please come back to us after playing through mythic with a swash because I genuinely want to know how your action economy worked out. A lot of swift actions in that mythic book.
Charmed Life is a great implementation IMO to help incentivise charisma while also aiding the swashbuckler's horrific saving throws.
Did you read the Immediate Action part?
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I wonder if it's possible that both sides of the Dex-to-damage argument are correct?
That is to say, Dex-to-damage is too strong because it makes Dex do too many things and makes it OK to dump-stat Strength as a melee, but no Dex-to-damage makes finesse too weak, the desirable outcome being a middle point that can't be reached by using either of the physical attributes as the main damage stat by themselves.
It feels to me like the Swashbuckler tries to correct that by giving an extremely powerful buff to combat stats that can only be used by traditional "finesse" styles. But it can't obsolete the heavy-armor-and-falchion style, or else the battlefield will be ruled by fencers rather than knights and berserkers and this will be 7th Sea instead of Pathfinder. The problem is triangulating "good enough to compete with heavy-weapons melee, not good enough to obsolete heavy combat style".
Because if the Dex fighter can match Falchion Fred's DPR and also get 4 skill points a level and have better class skills, why play a "BSF" sort of character at all?
Meaning Swashbuckler needs to either lag behind Falchion Fred in DPR to make up for having better out-of-combat utility, or Swashbuckler's role in combat needs to be unique - Swashbuckler can do things Falchion Fred can't, and Falchion Fred can do things Swashbuckler can't.
If only there was a way to average Dex and Strength and apply that modifier to damage rolls.
Or use a mental stat, and have it add to damage rather than replace Strength, so that you're still incentivized to not dump Strength because a negative mod will penalize your damage, but you can safely be a Swashbuckler who doesn't work out at the gym or wear a Belt of Giant's Strength.
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For those out there, there is almost NO chance that dex to damage will be in a core book. MANY developers have stated how strong this ability is and I will help to explain to the masses.What does strength do for a character? Carrying capacity, to hit for melee attacks, cmb, to damage for melee attacks and some skills(very few). This is the base of what adding an ability to damage is.
Now let us take a look at what dex does CURRENTLY:
1)AC
2)Reflex
3)Initiative
4)to hit for ranged attacks(meaning if a fighter wants ranged at all, he will still have to have some dex to help with that.)
5)Many, many skills that are useful even in combat including acrobatics
6)to hit with weapon finesse.
7)cmb with agile maneuvers.So....carrying capacity excluded, strength being reserved for damage because it is a strong ability and isnt used much anywhere else. If they were to be ok adding a dex to damage ability to a core class feature before the capstone is unfathomable. Why would anyone have any strength at all? if dex increases all these other amazing attributes for a character? It can do everything strength can except damage(and carrying capacity)
If you want dex to damage use dervish dance, or a mythic game for mythic finesse.
I used to be in the same want as many here in the forums durring the early stages of pathfinder because I remember AEG from 3.5 having superior finesse as a feat. req weapon finesse and i think combat expertise, and you could deal dex to damage with that weapon you picked for finesse. Until I saw how this game played out a little more.
It's not often you see a HUGE DPR titan mauler barbarian with a 20+ dex because he wants to murder things, not be agile and un-hitable. I am glad that the dev team saw the raw power behind dex to damage and stood their ground on the subject.
On another note, capstone for this class is amazing and hasn't changed. That alone will keep me from wanting to level dip elsewhere. After 5th level I will have a 25% chance to crit on any given attack, including riposte gaining a point of panache back and dealing great damage.
In the mythic game I am playing in(which runs to 20th before the last encounter) walking in with a 15-20(x4) rapier that auto confirms is going to be disgusting!
<before people start asking x2 base, x3 from capstone, x4 from mythic imp crit>
and with power attack as it is on top of str to damage(or dex with dervish or mythic) those crits are going to be alot more noticeable with the best threat range in the game. I think this class is just a few finishing touches of being done. It is balanced, great in some areas, while weaker in others. All around flavor is good, and allows for more than the rapier now! Can not wait for archetypes to finish out the amazing that has come from this work. Keep it up Paizo!
Allow me to explain the other side of this.
For strength you get:
1. CMB
2. CMD
3. Melee Attack Rolls
4. Weapon Damage bonus on melee and thrown
5. Climb and Swim skills
6. The ability to break doors and burst bonds (hugely helpful and often overlooked)
7. Carrying capacity (a flat out necessity for any martial class)
8. Access to power attack (a flat out necessity for any melee class)
With dex you get:
1)AC
2)Reflex
3)Initiative
4)to hit for ranged attacks
5)Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Disable Device, Fly(although you can't train in it unless you have a natural fly speed), Ride, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
6)CMD
The skills break down pretty easily, particularly for a martial class. Acrobatics and Stealth are useful. It is very unlikely that your martial class will be focusing on Disable Device or Sleight of Hand, so you end up with two skills. Escape Artist is a pretty terrible skill, and with a full BAB and a High strength will always be meaningless in grapples since you can just use your superior CMB to escape.
Initiative is also a bit of a wash. Particularly for swashbuckler who has a built in bonus. Initiative is really only important for ranged classes, rogues and casters.
AC is the worst sort of defense in Pathfinder, and you can easily make up most of the lost ground by simply using heavier armor.
Reflex saves, similarly, are the least important of all saving throws.
The swashbuckler issue of dex to damage is not to make a dex based swashbuckler better. It is to make a dex based swashbuckler better than a strength based one. That is all this is about.
I have posted it before, but if you dip 1 or 2 levels (or even just grab Medium Proficiency or use the check penalty 'exploit' of a mithral breastplate) you can make this comparison.
lvl 10 swashbuckler with a 24 dex and +3 mithral chain shirt = 23 AC before other factors.
lvl 10 swashbuckler with a 14 dex and a +3 mithral breastplate = 21 AC before other factors.
Both get nimble etc. etc. added on. We are flipping Str and Dex here, so 24 dex 14 str or 14 dex 24 str. The tradeoff becomes, -2 AC for +5 damage per hit. CMD is the same. CMB is better for the strong swashbuckler, so is carrying capacity, climb, swim, ability to burst bonds and break doors. With a feat they also have a better intimidate check for menacing swordplay.
Ultimately the only palpable difference is in reflex saves, and frankly... reflex saves are a big "meh". Acrobatics is a nice skill, but far from necessary with a class that doesn't really need to worry about positioning. Its important for a rogue trying to move into flank, but for a frontline melee fighter, most rounds will be spent standing as still as possible to get full attacks. The same can be said for stealth, and if you train in either, the extra +5 from that high dex with rapidly become overshadowed by the linearity of the skill system.
So... Swashbarian lives... expect to see this uber combo put to regular usage.
The only thing possibly stopping that train is Bleeding Wound. IF and only if, bleeding wound can be applied multiple times per round as instant bonus damage, then the dex swash will be the best build at level 11+. But until I see clarification I have to assume that it works like a regular bleed.
I like the changes to Swashbuckler's Finesse, especially the replacement of the Int prerequisite for Combat Expertise. The fighter (and monk) should probably get some form of this as well.
I like that Riposte has been folded into Parry and now only requires you to HAVE 1 Panache upon successfully Parrying, but I still think Parry should be changed to be used after an attack roll hits you, the way Crane Wing works, although I guess, now, if you have the Panache, you can just use this as often as possible for an extra attack, regardless of whether they would have hit you. I'm just picturing that fight with the Black Knight from The Holy Grail where Arthur is going out of his way to block attacks that clearly would come nowhere close to hitting.
I still think the Swashbuckler needs some way to be mobile in combat in a real way--that is, without falling into the Spring Attack trap, tanking offense completely.
Suggestion: When using Derring-do, if your die "explodes" (rolls a 6 and allows a reroll) you get an additional move action, and an additional one for each time it "explodes". This would allow you to occasionally tumble and full-attack, or run, jump and full attack, or...do several Swashbucklery things.
I like the new Cha synergies.
I like Charmed Life, but think it should really be usable after you've rolled but before you know the result. As a fairly limited ability, I know it would feel pretty crappy to use this and then roll a 1, or even use this and then roll a 20.
Superior Feint is too weak. Swashbucklers feint so that they can land an attack, or escape. It would be better if this allowed you to feint in place of a normal attack, or to feint in place of your first attack in a full-attack.
I still think this class needs ether a good fort save or 6+int skill points.
I would like to add dex to damage weather it is instead of str(wich makes more sense) or in addition to str. Though I think the ability should be no earlier then level 7.
I like Charmed Life, but think it should really be usable after you've rolled but before you know the result. As a fairly limited ability, I know it would feel pretty crappy to use this and then roll a 1, or even use this and then roll a 20.
This. Being able to use Charmed Life after you know the result would make this ability far better.
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One of the problems that I'm noticing with the Swashbuckler is that it can't really compete with the Fighter in terms of effectiveness at Combat Maneuvers simply because of the sheer number of feats that I'm required to pick up.
If I were to want to build Captain Jack Sparrow, for example, I would arguably need the ability to disarm, trip, and inflict dirty tricks onto my enemies. That would translate into needing Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and Improved Dirty Trick. Arguably, I would also want Greater Trip, Greater Disarm, Greater Dirty Trick, and Quick Dirty Trick. That's a grand total of eight feats that I would need to pick up, not including the fact that I would probably want to pick up Improved Feint and Greater Feint too.
Strictly speaking, the swashbuckler as a character concept (not a class) really shines the light on how feat taxed these types of combat styles are. Giving the swashbuckler an ability that allows her to use disarm, trip, and dirty tricks combat maneuvers without provoking attacks of opportunity while wielding a one-handed piercing weapon and nothing in her off-hand (except a buckler) could be an okay start to fixing this problem, but more and more its a problem with the system and not the class.
I guess the argument could be made that Jack Sparrow is a Mythic swashbuckler who has that path ability that lets him spend mythic power to gain access to Combat Maneuver feats temporarily, but that seems pretty lame.
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Charmed Life is a great implementation IMO to help incentivise charisma while also aiding the swashbuckler's horrific saving throws.Did you read the Immediate Action part?
Oh!.... ewwwww.....
Well, nevermind then, that is terrible. With the MAD issues this class has I doubt that Charmed Life will ever amount to much more than a +3 at best. Why the limitation? Its already only X/day, why in the world should it be an immediate action?
Is it to make swashbucklers cry when someone casts Phantasmal Killer on them? I can already hear an evil GM chuckle.
Add the Swash's Charisma modifier to their weapon's crit range (Swash with 18 CHA and a Rapier has a crit range of 14-20), and scaling increase to the weapon's critical multiplier (x3 at 6th level, x4 at 11th, x5 at 16th, assuming x2 base), but only on a standard action attack while using the dueling style. Spend a Panache point to roll twice and use the better when making a standard action attack: At 11th level, roll 3 times and take the better.
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Also, how in the heck does using Charisma to qualify for Combat Expertise do the swashbuckler any good?
Is Combat Expertise suddenly a good feat that players actually want to use? Because last time I checked it was just a crappy feat tax that gives you the option to be bad at combat for a round at a time.
I hope the Devs realize that pretty much every feat that has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite ALSO has Int 13 as a prerequisite... so the swashbuckler can take Combat Expertise, but not Improved Feint, Disarm, Trip etc.
Hopefully that is an oversight that will be amended on release. If not... then this is just a waste of text.
Honestly, I would love it if the Swashbuckler got Combat Expertise as a free feat at level 2, along with the 'Cha instead of Int' for feats that require combat expertise. It'll save them from yet another feat tax, lol.
I never said firearms are not the best weapon for Gunslingers. Of course they are. Using firearms is the whole point of the class!Not the best weapons for gun slingers, the best weapon. period.
I disagree, but let's leave it at that so the thread is not derailed even more.
Mh, dumping STR on a Swashbuckler is not a bad thing, more of a necessity.
Let´s see, you have DEX, CHA, CON as important stats. Also you don´t want to dump WIS, because you have a low will safe. Dumping INT would just make you loose skills, which you also don´t have a lot.
And i´m generally not dumping stats below 8 anyhow in a 20 point buy.
Agreed on Combat expertise as a feat tax. It can be situational good, especially if one has crane style feats to fight defensively already.
On it´s own, it´s really just a tax, i feel it doesn´t give you that much of an AC bump to survive or rely on it if it´s really needed.
Dodge and Osylut Guile (hope i spelled that right) would be a much better choice there in puncto defense.
Improvements made to the Swashbuckler from Round 1, according to Foghammer:
Overall, the class is better, but having put one together at level 1 and gone through some hypothetical scenarios, it lacks a certain potency that is hard to quantify, even the subsequent few levels. Damage notwithstanding (because I feel like that is beating a dead horse), I feel like there are a lot of abilities coming out that allow character to add a d6 to certain rolls using a pool. That's okay here or there, but it's come to the point that I've recognized it as a trend. Am I off-the-mark there? Perception is reality, right?
Derring-do just is kind of meh to me. My group carried action points over from 3.5 though, so that colors my perception a lot.
Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.
The size penalty on the parry ALMOST makes sense; bigger, heavier weapons are harder to deflect. Okay, I can get the logic. But I'm in the camp of keeping martial characters in roughly the same league as casters AND the cult of the rule of cool, so penalties like this become cumbersome and serve only to steal away potential badassery from the class.
Precise Strike is great except that it precludes the off-hand pistol or main-gauche, which is off-putting. Initiative isn't bad. Kip-up and Menacing Swordplay are meh, but I don't care because the other two deeds at 3rd level are what make it.
One thing I often see is people trying to make a particular class fill a niche that it ALMOST covers, but can't quite do so because of design choices. People want to make a character with magical "powered armor," they go synthesist summoner. People want to make an Avatar style martial artist, they do MoMS monk and maybe multiclass sorcerer or wizard. I feel like the swashbuckler could, in the long run, cover a wide range of roles, except that it feels to me like everyone thinks it needs to be shoehorned into one iconic image (like the Inigo Montoya, the Sinbad, the Count of Monte Cristo, or the Musketeer; just my perceptions). That, to me, is poor design philosophy.
Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.
It's great for breaking full attacks.
It's great for breaking full attacks.
Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.
That is actually a pretty awesome use I hadn't considered, but I am looking at it from the standpoint of someone who [sadly] rarely plays beyond 8th level. Full attacks don't come up too often in our games, but that is an excellent point.
How does that interact with the Step Up feat line, I wonder. It's NOT a 5-foot step, so it wouldn't let them follow, right?
It's great for breaking full attacks.
Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.
That is actually a pretty awesome use I hadn't considered, but I am looking at it from the standpoint of someone who [sadly] rarely plays beyond 8th level. Full attacks don't come up too often in our games, but that is an excellent point.
How does that interact with the Step Up feat line, I wonder. It's NOT a 5-foot step, so it wouldn't let them follow, right?
The problem is that the person doing the full attack can simply choose to use a 5-foot step to follow the swashbuckler and then continue the full attack. Step Up isn't necessary.
Well, I guess in order to get it to work, the swashbuckler has to set things up so that the enemy always has to use a 5-foot step in order to even start the full attack. So I guess a smart player could do some fun things here.
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Overall, a lot of mediocre changes that seem decent until you take a closer look.
Str is still the best way to go, though damage is still poor even then.
Charmed life's immediate action and limited uses make it not worth building toward, so you still can't afford to to raise Cha for more than 1 panache.
Parry & Riposte went from pointless to... pointless.
Your saves are still going to kill you. Charmed Life will not save you.
It looks like someone's decided they like characters having choices, and so have jammed everything this class can do as a trade off between stuff.
The problem is you haven't given the class interesting choices, you're just making the player decide how to lock themselves in to sucking.
No Sale.
(I can only assume that terrible Slashing Grace feat tax is there to throw in as a freebie on some of the archetypes)
How does that interact with the Step Up feat line, I wonder. It's NOT a 5-foot step, so it wouldn't let them follow, right?
It wouldn't
It's great for breaking full attacks.
Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.
That is actually a pretty awesome use I hadn't considered, but I am looking at it from the standpoint of someone who [sadly] rarely plays beyond 8th level. Full attacks don't come up too often in our games, but that is an excellent point.
How does that interact with the Step Up feat line, I wonder. It's NOT a 5-foot step, so it wouldn't let them follow, right?
The problem is that the person doing the full attack can simply choose to use a 5-foot step to follow the swashbuckler and then continue the full attack. Step Up isn't necessary.
Well, I guess in order to get it to work, the swashbuckler has to set things up so that the enemy always has to use a 5-foot step in order to even start the full attack. So I guess a smart player could do some fun things here.
Ah... derp. That's true. You would have to get your swashbuckler in, attack, and then when possible, use your normal 5-ft step to back off, then the enemy 5-foots back into melee range, attacks, and then you dodge away out of reach. That's not really a "rinse-repeat" tactic, but it could be useful if you can think to set it up.
While I like the improvements to mobility, and I like the basic idea of stepping back from an enemy to break his full attack (though it's highly situational as it currently stands), we should be wary of putting too much emphasis on chessboard tactical movements - 4e did that, and all it did was contribute to making combat slow to a crawl.
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While I like the improvements to mobility, and I like the basic idea of stepping back from an enemy to break his full attack (though it's highly situational as it currently stands), we should be wary of putting too much emphasis on chessboard tactical movements - 4e did that, and all it did was contribute to making combat slow to a crawl.
Personally I like combat that is slowed down a bit and more tactical. Finishing everything in 2 rounds every time isn't all that enjoyable to me.
Dodging Panache plays nice with Lunge. Only costs one feat and makes combat against full attackers pretty nasty for them. Since it requires BAB +6, it comes online at the same time that full attacks become a thing for non-TWFers.
Swashbucklers can't get it until level 7 though.
While I like the improvements to mobility, and I like the basic idea of stepping back from an enemy to break his full attack (though it's highly situational as it currently stands), we should be wary of putting too much emphasis on chessboard tactical movements - 4e did that, and all it did was contribute to making combat slow to a crawl.Personally I like combat that is slowed down a bit and more tactical. Finishing everything in 2 rounds every time isn't all that enjoyable to me.
The problem is that the Swashbuckler can't be the only slow and tactical class in a game that generally doesn't reward it. Great example would be the Targeted Strike deed. Sure it can be effective, but how often will it be more efficient than simply burning down the target with a full attack?
Maybe give it another stat for damage? Say charisma or wisdom?
While I like the improvements to mobility, and I like the basic idea of stepping back from an enemy to break his full attack (though it's highly situational as it currently stands), we should be wary of putting too much emphasis on chessboard tactical movements - 4e did that, and all it did was contribute to making combat slow to a crawl.Personally I like combat that is slowed down a bit and more tactical. Finishing everything in 2 rounds every time isn't all that enjoyable to me.
The problem is that you can't set the pace for the combats alone. When Cuddles the pouncing tiger and Lullaby the slumber hex happy witch with a pick wielding familiar are in the party you can either play rocket tag or tiddlywinks.
The problem is that the Swashbuckler can't be the only slow and tactical class in a game that generally doesn't reward it. Great example would be the Targeted Strike deed. Sure it can be effective, but how often will it be more efficient than simply burning down the target with a full attack?While I like the improvements to mobility, and I like the basic idea of stepping back from an enemy to break his full attack (though it's highly situational as it currently stands), we should be wary of putting too much emphasis on chessboard tactical movements - 4e did that, and all it did was contribute to making combat slow to a crawl.Personally I like combat that is slowed down a bit and more tactical. Finishing everything in 2 rounds every time isn't all that enjoyable to me.
Rarely and to be fair I said as much previously.
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Here's the issue and I would love it if someone could please explain this to me - why are we pretending that DEX to damage doesn't exist? Hmm?
Agile Weapons are in the game. And costed at the equivalent of a +1 enhancement, or 2,000 Gold.
Generally speaking, in games outside the highest levels, being able to get a weapon enhancement is better than a feat. Why waste a limited feat slot on Improved Critical if you can make you weapon Keen instead with limited resource wasting?
Further, everyone and their mother knows about Dervish Dance at this point, and people are fine with it. It requires that you go one-handed, but is there any reason at all it needs to be Scimitar as opposed to any Finesse-able weapon?
Dex to damage has existed in the game for years at this point, being played in Pathfinder Society and around a bunch of kitchen tables. Is it broken/unbalanced/obsolete all other combat styles?
NO! It's a very specific, very niche, feat intensive way of doing things.
So can someone please explain to me why people are arguing about whether or not it's too good like some hypothetical? We already have it and we already know that it's not!
At this point?
Sheer bloody-mindedness is my only guess.
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Honestly, I personally wish it were possible to make Dex-to-damage a thing, but also make Strength more versatile somehow to compensate.
Like in True20, where the DC to hit you could be modified by Strength, which represented blocking/parrying and only worked against melee, or by traditional Dex-to-AC, which represented dodging and worked against everything.
But that existed in a system where armor did not make you harder to hit, so that's a wash. Strength-to-AC might make Strength too good and make Sword-and-Boarders in platemail untouchable (except by touch attacks). The game's math doesn't support that specific fix.
But adding in feats to add Dex to damage and add Strength to [i]something[i] it's not normally used for would make it so that you could go all-in on a stat if you wanted to, but going all-in on Strength or Dex was feat-taxed enough that it would only be optimal if your class and build supported it, like Dex fighters who would pay the tax because of the Dex synergy with their out-of-combat skill use.
If you want to look at it that way, Pathfinder is just a set of homebrew 3.5 rules. You can say "Dervish Dance technically doesn't exist!" until you're blue in the face, but have a look at the Magus threads. Dervish Dance is a thing, they cannot un-print it, it turned out not to be overpowered at all, and we gain nothing by pretending it doesn't exist.
And if they think Lore Warden is overpowered in any context they're off their rocker. Maneuvers are feat-intensive and situational, it's not asking too much for them to at least be reliable.
The idea that 'if it's not core, it's not in the game' is absolutely wrong. Whether or not it's setting specific, it's still Pathfinder, and the idea that "it's not core" is nothing less than a weak argument at best, and irrelevant at worst.
Fact of the matter is Dex to damage is in the game, and nothing is going to change that. Despite all that, more people play Strength to damage characters, than those that use Dex to damage instead.
It's the same argument about people saying Monks shouldn't get Wisdom to attack rolls, because then every Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor etc will dip Monk to get it, despite Wisdom to-hit already existing.
Yet you don't see every Cleric, Druid or Inquisitor dipping Monk for Wisdom to-hit. Hell, Curse of the Crimson Throne introduced the Guided property which allows Wisdom for attack and damage, but it's still not rampant across the boards.
Hell, Curse of the Crimson Throne introduced the Guided property which allows Wisdom for attack and damage, but it's still not rampant across the boards.
Curse of the Crimson Throne was also written for 3.5e.
dude its not that its not in the game its that according to the DESIGN TEAM its too powerful and the only way it got in is because JJ has a way around them with GOlarion specific material. While I agree with you all of the DEX to dmg posts arent going to change their mind. In their opinion its a non starter so we need to focus on something else like cha to dmg or whatever because while they may be too polite to say it out loud it 99.99% aint gonna happen. They have their opinion on the subject and if it were up to them there wouldnt be ANY dex to dmg options outside of mythic. So please take my post in spirit in which it was intended and lets try to come up with something they may actually adopt.The idea that 'if it's not core, it's not in the game' is absolutely wrong. Whether or not it's setting specific, it's still Pathfinder, and the idea that "it's not core" is nothing less than a weak argument at best, and irrelevant at worst.
Fact of the matter is Dex to damage is in the game, and nothing is going to change that. Despite all that, more people play Strength to damage characters, than those that use Dex to damage instead.
It's the same argument about people saying Monks shouldn't get Wisdom to attack rolls, because then every Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor etc will dip Monk to get it, despite Wisdom to-hit already existing.
Yet you don't see every Cleric, Druid or Inquisitor dipping Monk for Wisdom to-hit. Hell, Curse of the Crimson Throne introduced the Guided property which allows Wisdom for attack and damage, but it's still not rampant across the boards.
As testimonials and evidence from available options and 3.5 can show you, the design team is wrong. Even if the design team ultimately no-sells the idea the feedback is still valuable and telling us not to give it is sorta...rude?
As testimonials and evidence from available options and 3.5 can show you, the design team is wrong. Even if the design team ultimately no-sells the idea the feedback is still valuable and telling us not to give it is sorta...rude?dude its not that its not in the game its that according to the DESIGN TEAM its too powerful and the only way it got in is because JJ has a way around them with GOlarion specific material. While I agree with you all of the DEX to dmg posts arent going to change their mind. In their opinion its a non starter so we need to focus on something else like cha to dmg or whatever because while they may be too polite to say it out loud it 99.99% aint gonna happen. They have their opinion on the subject and if it were up to them there wouldnt be ANY dex to dmg options outside of mythic. So please take my post in spirit in which it was intended and lets try to come up with something they may actually adopt.The idea that 'if it's not core, it's not in the game' is absolutely wrong. Whether or not it's setting specific, it's still Pathfinder, and the idea that "it's not core" is nothing less than a weak argument at best, and irrelevant at worst.
Fact of the matter is Dex to damage is in the game, and nothing is going to change that. Despite all that, more people play Strength to damage characters, than those that use Dex to damage instead.
It's the same argument about people saying Monks shouldn't get Wisdom to attack rolls, because then every Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor etc will dip Monk to get it, despite Wisdom to-hit already existing.
Yet you don't see every Cleric, Druid or Inquisitor dipping Monk for Wisdom to-hit. Hell, Curse of the Crimson Throne introduced the Guided property which allows Wisdom for attack and damage, but it's still not rampant across the boards.
I agree, the Design Team is wrong.
I'm guessing it's going to take a blow up like the 'Monk Flurry' debacle before they even come close to admitting it.
A little humility on their part would go a long way towards making this game better.
Look how long it took them to change the Amulet of Druid Attacks so that it's actually a viable choice? It was too expensive from the beginning, and the Board members told them so, but it took them years, and a huge out-cry combined with nothing less than slander and abuse before they finally decided to admit they were wrong.
and a huge out-cry combined with nothing less than slander and abuse before they finally decided to admit they were wrong.
Or the slander and abuse prolonged and unnecessarily inflamed what could have been a faster and more rational process?
I agree, the Design Team is wrong.
A little humility on their part would go a long way towards making this game better.
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I agree, the Design Team is wrong.A little humility on their part would go a long way towards making this game better....
Be fair, my friend - 'You are wrong' is a statement of criticism, not an inherently negative thing. If I didn't care I wouldn't be in the thread to talk about this stuff (note my complete absence in Investigator and Bloodrager).
I like the idea of Swashbuckler. I even like some of the mechanics. But it's got major flaws I'd love to see addressed and frankly the damage is at the bottom of that list! It's just getting talked about a lot because it's a bone of contention.
D'ya remember the failed promise of the 3.5 Swashbuckler? I don't want this turning out like that.
Since you're here, any ideas for reducing the current great MAD problem with the class? Maybe getting Charisma or Wisdom to damage?
and a huge out-cry combined with nothing less than slander and abuse before they finally decided to admit they were wrong.Or the slander and abuse prolonged and unnecessarily inflamed what could have been a faster and more rational process?
This! Slander/abuse is no good at any time in any way for anybody. The design team is a good group who care about the game, and they have come up with some great stuff over the years. I do feel like their choices for this book are extremely cautious, but that is my opinion.
I think maybe they should look into how Dex-to-damage has not ruined the game over in PFS and didn't ruin the gunslinger (the full-attacking may have tipped it over the top, but Dex to damage certainly didn't). As a class-specific ability on a specific fighting style at a level that defies dipping (5-7 sounds good), I can't see an issue. Plus, shouldn't any Dex-based melee character be in this class anyway? I realize there is a fear of making Strength pointless, but I promise I'll still be gunning for 13 so I can get Power Attack and carry my sword. It simply lets the Dex-based fighter play with the Str-based fighters who don't need so many stats. Do I expect this to happen? Not really. Does that mean I should roll over and shut up? Absolutely not--I'm 'Merican.
On another note, since I see Stephen on here with his fancy helmet, can you clarify the panache gain on a crit fueling precise strike before I roll damage question? I think I have it right, but I would appreciate some clarity.
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To people trying to make this "dex to damage is overpowered" argument, a couple quick points need to be made:
It would arguably be broken if you have dex to damage to a monk (who is not allowed to wear armor at all, and really does just get more AC the higher dex goes), or a fighter (who can wear full plate and still benefit from 24 dex to AC at level 15 and wouldn't need any other attributes but con and wis, purely for saves). You could even make a case that it would break a rogue (same stat boat as the fighter, massive damage bonus on their attacks on top of it if they set up right, theoretically balanced by splitting their attention between offense and defense), or a ranged combat specialist (doesn't really need anything but dex to begin with unless they're cornered/grappled and need a melee backup weapon).
A swashbuckler though? Your only good save is the one that frontliners never need to worry about, so con and wis need shoring up, you're the worst full-BAB class with a bow out the gate, even moreso if you're going low str, so dex beyond 18 (22 with mithral) doesn't benefit you in any meaningful way beyond hit/dam (making it worse than str, which also increases carrying capacity along such a building curve it allows you to ignore those rules entirely), and you need (well, "need") charisma to power your "class feature" of doing double damage every time you score a crit. This is not a class that can get away with minmaxing. If they could completely dump str (and they can't) and they got that good fort save they need, they'd still be behind on stats next to a fighter (who can completely dump cha and doesn't particularly need more much dex for anything), or even a paladin (who can't dump cha, but can sub it in for all their saves, which are good to begin with, and neglect everything but cha and str, needing only a whopping 10 dex to start with if they want to eventually max out AC).
What they would be on par with stat wise is a monk, who can only really dump int and cha, making him the most stat-greedy class currently in game, but in return getting the (debatably) best full attack in the game, with DR penetration built in and no creature types immune to it, fantastic combat maneuvers, a lot of always-on maneuverability, and a pool of points that fuel all kinds of crazy abilities including just plain getting an extra attack, getting +20 to various athletic skills, and full on teleporting across the room... and that's before even getting into their special personal feats for automatically blocking attacks, moving enemies around, and just plain climbing the air to reach flying enemies.
As I keep saying, precise strike is not bonus damage swashbucklers get out of nowhere. All it does is offset the one-handed style which is not enforced by anything else the class gets. If you were to limit this ability in this fashion, all you would be doing is forcing every swashbucker to fight with two weapons instead (and there's a pretty strong case they should be doing so to begin with).
Because if the Dex fighter can match Falchion Fred's DPR and also get 4 skill points a level and have better class skills, why play a "BSF" sort of character at all?
Meaning Swashbuckler needs to either lag behind Falchion Fred in DPR to make up for having better out-of-combat utility, or Swashbuckler's role in combat needs to be unique - Swashbuckler can do things Falchion Fred can't, and Falchion Fred can do things Swashbuckler can't.
Well, assuming Falchion Fred is a fighter, I addressed this issue in detail in the last thread. The short version though is that Fred gets 6 more feats overall (the first two coming at levels 1 and 2), better AC before paying for any magic enhancements, AC that doesn't drop away to nothing under any of the many conditions which deny your dex bonus, the ability to pull out literally any other weapon and do almost as good, better CMB, better CMD, the ability to even carry that backup weapon, and/or some rope, and/or some other handy gear, the ability to wear clothing, particularly in the winter, and the ability to carry all the found loot and camping gear the party is forced to lug around everywhere they go. Plus busting down doors and such.
Or use a mental stat, and have it add to damage rather than replace Strength, so that you're still incentivized to not dump Strength because a negative mod will penalize your damage, but you can safely be a Swashbuckler who doesn't work out at the gym or wear a Belt of Giant's Strength.
Actually dumping str isn't really an option. Carrying capacity alone prevents you from being able to swing it, and my initial test character was completely screwed the first time she was hit by something with grab. Climb and swim checks also get rather nasty when they come up and you don't have points invested or a nice high natural strength. The whole "let's send the fighter up/across with a rope for everyone else" angle most low str types get by with doesn't work if you are the fighter.
It's great for breaking full attacks.
Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.
If you are in a position where an enemy has to take a 5' step to full attack you (say, because you took a 5' step away at the end of your turn), then you can break a full attack against you. Works against a charge too.
However, by ending your turn 10' away from whatever you are fighting, you no longer threaten them, and particularly if they've seen you try to use this ability (or they've seen how little of a threat you are, or that you're trying for something defensive), rather than chase after you and take their one attack, they can switch over to one of your friends. Even if they don't, and you successfully break a full attack, if you want to hit back, you then have to take a 5' step up to hit them. So under ideal circumstances, this works every other round.
And then of course if you're fighting something with a 10' reach, the whole thing falls apart.
It's not flat out useless, but the conditions under which it is useful are ridiculously rare.
Since you're here, any ideas for reducing the current great MAD problem with the class? Maybe getting Charisma or Wisdom to damage?
We are discussing that. But at the same time I think "great" is a bit of a stretch. Any solution we come up with will likely not be added to the class, but could come in with feats. That said, we are still thinking about it.
That and I'm always here.
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I agree, the Design Team is wrong.A little humility on their part would go a long way towards making this game better....
Here's the difference, there a many, many, many people saying you are wrong, with lots of data and play experience to back it up.
Dex to damage as a weapon property, and Dex to damage as a feat through Dervish Dance have been around for awhile now, and they are all very well known choices. They've been used a lot, and neither of them have 'broken the game' or been 'too powerful'.
Despite the fact it already exists, despite the fact people are using it, despite the fact it isn't broken, the design team is of the opinion that Dex to damage as a Mythic feat is too powerful.
You know, Mythic, the rule set that is designed to let you bend or outright break the normal rules? Dex to damage is apparently too powerful for a rule system that lets you cheat, in the eyes of the design team.
So the Agile property and Dervish Dance must, therefore, be single-handedly the most powerful mechanic in the entire game, bar none.
The Design Team could never be wrong right? That's why they are the design team.