Dervish Dance actually is overrunning PFS for all classes and archetypes that need to use one hand, such as magus, and if you search the PFS boards, you will find that some GMs dislike having these super-high-AC super-high-damage magi at their tables due to power reasons (I'm not one of them, but I've seen others post to that effect). One time recently there was a magus who used something other than a scimitar, and people were very surprised.Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?
No.
What more is there to say?
Magi are all over Dervish Dance because they don't get Heavy Armor in PFS. And how do Dervish Dance Magi deal more damage than conventional Strength users?
And what other classes are forced to use one hand (and are not a Swordlord)? Duelist?
Edit: One other thing. Obviating a stat is clearly not a problem.
Dervish Dance is the longest-running, most thorough playtest of Dex to damage you could imagine. So far, nothing has broken.
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Otherwise, why have a playtest? Why solicit player feedback?
I've been asking myself that same question during some of the class playtests. Some of the devs don't seem to want input on the revised designs.
Dervish Dance actually is overrunning PFS for all classes and archetypes that need to use one hand, such as magus, and if you search the PFS boards, you will find that some GMs dislike having these super-high-AC super-high-damage magi at their tables due to power reasons (I'm not one of them, but I've seen others post to that effect). One time recently there was a magus who used something other than a scimitar, and people were very surprised.
Side-discussion: Dervish Dance is kind of a perfect storm when it comes to the Magus. If you're not a dex-based Magus, your AC is bad for the majority of your PFS life. If you're a dex-based magus, your weapon selection is very limited because you want weapons with high crit ranges (something the Swashbuckler is also being dragged into), and since then your options are basically rapier or scimitar, it makes sense to drop the feat to gain dex-to-damage with your scimitar.
As it is, I'd say a lot of PFS Swashbucklers will end up Dervish Dancing as well, since it fits the class (empty offhand, high crit weapon, dex focus).
could definitely use more mobility. I understand if they don't want to throw pounce to one melee class, but charging around corners, off walls, and while swinging from chandaliers would be nice. I don't see anything in the class that really says "mobility" any more than the wizard is highly mobile because he's not wearing heavy armor.
I dipped dervish dancer for the dex to damage, and got expeditious retreat and feather step to win both showcases.
What about being able to charge without having to travel in a straight line?
Magi are all over Dervish Dance because they don't get Heavy Armor in PFS. And how do Dervish Dance Magi deal more damage than conventional Strength users?Dervish Dance actually is overrunning PFS for all classes and archetypes that need to use one hand, such as magus, and if you search the PFS boards, you will find that some GMs dislike having these super-high-AC super-high-damage magi at their tables due to power reasons (I'm not one of them, but I've seen others post to that effect). One time recently there was a magus who used something other than a scimitar, and people were very surprised.Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?
No.
What more is there to say?
Because of point buy. The Dervish buys a 7 Strength and the Str-user typically buys a 14 Dex. This gap allows the Dervish to have a 20 Dexterity when the normal Str magus has an 18 (or suffers in Int), while also having 3 better AC at first level that just keeps outpacing the regular magus more and more as time goes by. This is exacerbated by the fact that the magus class design simultaneously made 18-20/x2 far better than any other kind of critical pattern, so the Str magus is probably also using a scimitar.
Otherwise, why have a playtest? Why solicit player feedback?I've been asking myself that same question during some of the class playtests. Some of the devs don't seem to want input on the revised designs.
"I don't agree with you" is not the same thing as "I am not interested in your feedback."
Believe it or not, but hard-core optimizers make up the minority of Pathfinder players. They tend to spawn each other like Vampires, however.
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20 Dex = 5 damage
18 Str = 6 damage
Where's the extra damage from going Dex again?
Also have fun carrying your weapon, armor, and anything else.
Yes, but this discussion is going nowhere it hasn't gone before and isn't really addressing the Swashbuckler's mechanics as written.
Sadly - until the designers actually comment on it - I think it's just going to keep cropping up again and again.
Just pointing out, your example of it being too strong is in the context of it working with non-finesse weapons. Which, in the context of swashbuckler, could easily be limited to just specific swashbuckler weapons. Nobody's going to be making a greatsword swashbuckler, in other words.Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game? No.
What more is there to say?
Dervish Dance also isn't core. It's in Inner Sea Magic, which is a Golarion setting book.
As far as the Core line of rulebooks are concerned, Dex to Damage only exists as a Mythic tier feat, which may be too good as is.
This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.
This line tells me that Jason is worried that, even with the revision, with the revision being that it only works with weapons that can be used in conjunction with Weapon Finesse, it is still an issue he worries about.
So a Mythic Feat that only works on Finesseable weapons, that gives Dexterity to Damage, is something that causes Jason Bulmahn worry.
The Mythic Weapon Finesse feat is essentially nothing more than a Feat version of the Agile property, much in the same way that the Keen property is an enhancement version of Improved Critcal, and vice versa.
Agile is limited to weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse only, and then it allows a Weapon Finesse character to apply Dexterity to damage instead of Strength.
By Jason Bulmahns reckoning, the Agile weapon property is as powerful as a Mythic Feat (but only costs 4,000 gp to enhance a non-magical weapon to get it). A feat, I should add, that causes him worry.
The Agile property must scare the living daylights out of him.
Dervish Dance must be like Cthulhu for him. Just hearing the name causes him to lose his mind.
[Edit] Fixed format issue.
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Why is it that Paladin's are Divinely Graceful 24/7, yet Swashbucklers' Lives are only Charmed 3/day?
Why not make Charmed Life a 3/day get to roll twice and choose the best roll (other than giving another bonus for actually having a high CHA instead of just taking the Extra Panache feat)?
"I don't agree with you" is not the same thing as "I am not interested in your feedback."
Not this particular playtest. Mr. McFarland has been a pretty cool guy.
Because of point buy. The Dervish buys a 7 Strength and the Str-user typically buys a 14 Dex. This gap allows the Dervish to have a 20 Dexterity when the normal Str magus has an 18 (or suffers in Int), while also having 3 better AC at first level that just keeps outpacing the regular magus more and more as time goes by. This is exacerbated by the fact that the magus class design simultaneously made 18-20/x2 far better than any other kind of critical pattern, so the Str magus is probably also using a scimitar.Magi are all over Dervish Dance because they don't get Heavy Armor in PFS. And how do Dervish Dance Magi deal more damage than conventional Strength users?Dervish Dance actually is overrunning PFS for all classes and archetypes that need to use one hand, such as magus, and if you search the PFS boards, you will find that some GMs dislike having these super-high-AC super-high-damage magi at their tables due to power reasons (I'm not one of them, but I've seen others post to that effect). One time recently there was a magus who used something other than a scimitar, and people were very surprised.Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?
No.
What more is there to say?
Sounds like a good way to alleviate MAD.
And it's not just the Magus that makes 18-20 weapons superior. All the Critical Feats, not to mention Grit/Panache, simply activate when a Critical Hit is confirmed and gain no additional effect for a higher crit multiplier. Improved Critical effects double the crit range rather than adding to it, pushing 18-20 further ahead. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any critical effect that favors a higher multiplier over a wider range.
20 Dex = 5 damage
18 Str = 6 damage
Where's the extra damage from going Dex again?
Also have fun carrying your weapon, armor, and anything else.
If you want to give up Spell Combat for +1 to damage by two-handing, Magus was probably not the right class for that character in the first place. As to carrying capacity, it's really not too bad if you use mage armor. I actually have a Dervish Dancing Magus in PFS who I've played from levels 1 to 5. He is definitely quite overpowered compared to a Str Magus in all ways, and he's never had carrying issues. I have a wand of ant haul and have never even needed to use it.
I would have died at least 4 times in Citadel of Flame if I had been Str-based.
Having DMed for magi, I have to say... the ones without Dervish Dance, Magi trying to use strength, feel /underpowered/ compared to anyone with a two-handed weapon. They have lower AC (because no heavy armor), hit less often, and, at least at low levels, their spells fail a /lot./
If you want to give up Spell Combat for +1 to damage by two-handing, Magus was probably not the right class for that character in the first place. As to carrying capacity, it's really not too bad if you use mage armor. I actually have a Dervish Dancing Magus in PFS who I've played from levels 1 to 5. He is definitely quite overpowered compared to a Str Magus in all ways, and he's never had carrying issues. I have a wand of ant haul and have never even needed to use it.20 Dex = 5 damage
18 Str = 6 damage
Where's the extra damage from going Dex again?
Also have fun carrying your weapon, armor, and anything else.
Keep in mind the context of what he was referencing. You referenced a Magus using 18 strength and 14 Dex, while a Dervish Dance Magus using 20 Dex and 7 strength.
At 7 strength, you'll have a tough time carrying much of anything.
If you want to give up Spell Combat for +1 to damage by two-handing, Magus was probably not the right class for that character in the first place. As to carrying capacity, it's really not too bad if you use mage armor. I actually have a Dervish Dancing Magus in PFS who I've played from levels 1 to 5. He is definitely quite overpowered compared to a Str Magus in all ways, and he's never had carrying issues. I have a wand of ant haul and have never even needed to use it.20 Dex = 5 damage
18 Str = 6 damage
Where's the extra damage from going Dex again?
Also have fun carrying your weapon, armor, and anything else.
Keep in mind the context of what he was referencing. You referenced a Magus using 18 strength and 14 Dex, while a Dervish Dance Magus using 20 Dex and 7 strength.
At 7 strength, you'll have a tough time carrying much of anything.
The first two levels will be rough for that Magus, hitting for ~1.5 damage.
If you want to give up Spell Combat for +1 to damage by two-handing, Magus was probably not the right class for that character in the first place. As to carrying capacity, it's really not too bad if you use mage armor. I actually have a Dervish Dancing Magus in PFS who I've played from levels 1 to 5. He is definitely quite overpowered compared to a Str Magus in all ways, and he's never had carrying issues. I have a wand of ant haul and have never even needed to use it.20 Dex = 5 damage
18 Str = 6 damage
Where's the extra damage from going Dex again?
Also have fun carrying your weapon, armor, and anything else.
Keep in mind the context of what he was referencing. You referenced a Magus using 18 strength and 14 Dex, while a Dervish Dance Magus using 20 Dex and 7 strength.
At 7 strength, you'll have a tough time carrying much of anything.
As you can see in the post you quoted, I have never even come particularly close to my carrying limit, since I don't wear armor. And if I ever came close, I have a wand of ant haul. Haven't used a charge yet, but I have one, and with triple capacity, I can carry quite a bit.
I'll put it another way. In his 12+ scenarios so far, even some 5-9s, I have never reached a point where I was limited by the fact that I would have liked to carry more, not even enough to spend a charge of my wand. This was...unexpected. I thought you would be right when I theorycrafted it, which is why I bought the wand. But playtest showed I was wrong and didn't need the wand.
Dervish Dance actually is overrunning PFS for all classes and archetypes that need to use one hand, such as magus, and if you search the PFS boards, you will find that some GMs dislike having these super-high-AC super-high-damage magi at their tables due to power reasons (I'm not one of them, but I've seen others post to that effect). One time recently there was a magus who used something other than a scimitar, and people were very surprised.Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?
No.
What more is there to say?
Well, yes, but is that a magi or a dervish dance problem or both?
I think a agile wakizashi is the same in the hands of a finesse magus^^And probably all of their weapons are keen, so they often crit with the spell damage...
If you want to give up Spell Combat for +1 to damage by two-handing, Magus was probably not the right class for that character in the first place. As to carrying capacity, it's really not too bad if you use mage armor. I actually have a Dervish Dancing Magus in PFS who I've played from levels 1 to 5. He is definitely quite overpowered compared to a Str Magus in all ways, and he's never had carrying issues. I have a wand of ant haul and have never even needed to use it.20 Dex = 5 damage
18 Str = 6 damage
Where's the extra damage from going Dex again?
Also have fun carrying your weapon, armor, and anything else.
Keep in mind the context of what he was referencing. You referenced a Magus using 18 strength and 14 Dex, while a Dervish Dance Magus using 20 Dex and 7 strength.
At 7 strength, you'll have a tough time carrying much of anything.
As you can see in the post you quoted, I have never even come particularly close to my carrying limit, since I don't wear armor. And if I ever came close, I have a wand of ant haul. Haven't used a charge yet, but I have one, and with triple capacity, I can carry quite a bit.
I'll put it another way. In his 12+ scenarios so far, even some 5-9s, I have never reached a point where I was limited by the fact that I would have liked to carry more, not even enough to spend a charge of my wand. This was...unexpected. I thought you would be right when I theorycrafted it, which is why I bought the wand. But playtest showed I was wrong and didn't need the wand.
DM never hit you with Strength damage?
Anyways, without the developers making an up-or-down statement this argument will never stop going around in circles. Let's try to maybe get some of those high level Deeds improved.
Edit: Had the wrong document open. Dizzying Defense is no longer an outright nerf to your own defensive abilities but still mediocre for a 15th level deed costing one Panache and on the Swift Action bottleneck.
The first two levels will be rough for that Magus, hitting for ~1.5 damage.If you want to give up Spell Combat for +1 to damage by two-handing, Magus was probably not the right class for that character in the first place. As to carrying capacity, it's really not too bad if you use mage armor. I actually have a Dervish Dancing Magus in PFS who I've played from levels 1 to 5. He is definitely quite overpowered compared to a Str Magus in all ways, and he's never had carrying issues. I have a wand of ant haul and have never even needed to use it.20 Dex = 5 damage
18 Str = 6 damage
Where's the extra damage from going Dex again?
Also have fun carrying your weapon, armor, and anything else.
Keep in mind the context of what he was referencing. You referenced a Magus using 18 strength and 14 Dex, while a Dervish Dance Magus using 20 Dex and 7 strength.
At 7 strength, you'll have a tough time carrying much of anything.
They weren't particularly painful, since a magus has as many color sprays as a non-illusionist wizard would have, so the sword was just a bonus.
DM never hit you with Strength damage?
No shadows in any of those scenarios, and even if there were, my full AC applied to their attacks because I used mage armor as my armor. Shadow with a +4 inc touch needs a natural 20 to hit my touch AC, so the Str magus is in more danger from it.
Anyway, magus specifics are irrelevant to the swash. Shall we take this to another thread guys?
So, to tie all this discussion back into the Swashbuckler, do people think that all Magus's Dervish Dancing is due to Dex-To-Damage being a really strong option overall, or just a really strong option for that class due to specific circumstances (one-handed, high crit, dex-based)?
I know you've done a lot of high-level testing with the previous Swashbuckler, Rogue Eidolon, which is totally awesome, and from what I recall, those Swashbucklers having Dex-To-Damage was more of just: "Woo, bonus" rather than a fundamental requirement of their capabilities at high-level.
I think scimitar Magus is just an extrusion of one-handed fighting and wanting a high critical range. Dexterity is unlikely to be a Magus's highest ability, and if it is, their Magus-ness suffers anyway. I have literally never heard, "OMG Magus's non-magical damage is a huge balance problem." And I've rarely seen Dervish Dance outside of magus, rogue, and multiclassed monk builds. Even rogues would usually rather find ways to boost accuracy and avoid concealment, rather than taking a vanillla damage boost, even a generous one.
All adding Dex to damage would do is add a small incentive to go Dex 18, Str 14, rather than Str 18, Dex 14.
So, to tie all this discussion back into the Swashbuckler, do people think that all Magus's Dervish Dancing is due to Dex-To-Damage being a really strong option overall, or just a really strong option for that class due to specific circumstances (one-handed, high crit, dex-based)?
I agree, the feat for magi is only overpowered because the magus specifically is one-handed, high crit, and dex-based. However, here's the issue--those three are all true for swashbuckler as well.
I know you've done a lot of high-level testing with the previous Swashbuckler, Rogue Eidolon, which is totally awesome, and from what I recall, those Swashbucklers having Dex-To-Damage was more of just: "Woo, bonus" rather than a fundamental requirement of their capabilities at high-level.
Usually the Dex-to-damage added a substantial amount of damage, but the fact is that those characters live by the reverse motto of most of the optimization people, the best offense is a good defense. Their defense was high enough that they would have won without Dex to damage, as I showed in each thread. Doesn't mean it didn't help damage a pretty good amount.
What about being able to charge without having to travel in a straight line?could definitely use more mobility. I understand if they don't want to throw pounce to one melee class, but charging around corners, off walls, and while swinging from chandaliers would be nice. I don't see anything in the class that really says "mobility" any more than the wizard is highly mobile because he's not wearing heavy armor.
I dipped dervish dancer for the dex to damage, and got expeditious retreat and feather step to win both showcases.
I did not hit the dollar on the wheel :(
At an effective 7 strength for carrying capacity my DervishBuckler has
Darkcloth studded leather
Scimitar
Darkwood light crossbow
10 bolts
2 wands (clw and shield)
2 potions
For everything else, there's a rank in handle animal and a pack animal.
The only times I've been hit with strength damage it was so much it wouldn't have mattered WHAT the strength score was on anything less than a barbarian or a hungry hungry hippo druid.
I agree, the feat for magi is only overpowered because the magus specifically is one-handed, high crit, and dex-based. However, here's the issue--those three are all true for swashbuckler as well.
It's the strongest option for the Magus, but that doesn't make it overpowered.
It's more of a crutch, bringing the Magus up to par.But I get the feeling we play in quite different groups.
So, to tie all this discussion back into the Swashbuckler, do people think that all Magus's Dervish Dancing is due to Dex-To-Damage being a really strong option overall, or just a really strong option for that class due to specific circumstances (one-handed, high crit, dex-based)?
In my group, we have a feat called "Immaculate Form." It's +Dex to damage instead of Str with any finessable weapon. So far, we've had a number of characters with it, including a Magus, and we've found that the characters it's best on are characters who would be practically unplayable without it. It helps TWF rangers and rogues, it allows Magi to do competitive damage, and it lets Monks (already buffed into a class we call Martial Artist) stand aside other martial characters...
... What it DOESN'T do is let any of these guys come close to the Paladins, Barbarians, or Psychic Warrior as far as raw "ruin someone's face" ability goes. While they're spending two feats on Weapon Finesse and Immaculate Form, the other front-line guys have Power Attack and Furious Focus. Sure, they can then go into Piranha Strike, but it's -1/+2 is just not comparable to the -0/+3 of the PA and FF.
We have some melee characters who are considered "problems" due to their capabilities and powers. Not one of them is the result of someone using Dex to damage instead of strength.
So, to tie all this discussion back into the Swashbuckler, do people think that all Magus's Dervish Dancing is due to Dex-To-Damage being a really strong option overall, or just a really strong option for that class due to specific circumstances (one-handed, high crit, dex-based)?I agree, the feat for magi is only overpowered because the magus specifically is one-handed, high crit, and dex-based. However, here's the issue--those three are all true for swashbuckler as well.
Exactly. I can see them already; the tide of Dervish Dancing, Scimitar wielding PFS Swashbucklers. Pretty sure Sarenrae just made the feat to get more worshipers.
My reasons for wanting Swashbucklers to potentially have some kind of Dex-to-Damage is to try and avoid DD-Scimitar being the best option like it is for the Magus. They're already going to be quite niche because 18-20 crit is preferable.
I'd love the designers to acknowledge Dervish Dance, so that they can design to avoid it being the best dex-based option for the class.
I know you've done a lot of high-level testing with the previous Swashbuckler, Rogue Eidolon, which is totally awesome, and from what I recall, those Swashbucklers having Dex-To-Damage was more of just: "Woo, bonus" rather than a fundamental requirement of their capabilities at high-level.Usually the Dex-to-damage added a substantial amount of damage, but the fact is that those characters live by the reverse motto of most of the optimization people, the best offense is a good defense. Their defense was high enough that they would have won without Dex to damage, as I showed in each thread. Doesn't mean it didn't help damage a pretty good amount.
Considering the change to Parry-And-Riposte, do you think the Swashbuckler still has the same defence at higher levels? That is, where it can solo things by simply avoiding incoming damage?
Basically, are you going to do more playtests? :D
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I apologize if I came of rude earlier. I just have read how much the developers feel that dex to damage was almost too powerful, but I do not think that by repeating that you want it or think you need it will change that . It's something I personally against and I usually let a lot of powerful stuff by...
I like the way we can add charisma a few times a day but two questions on that front. Are there going to be some way to increase that via feats? And secondly I was wondering if there are plans or thoughts to change that action to a free action. Soo many abilities of the swashbuckler use immediate actions or swift actions it really leaves us starved imho
At an effective 7 strength for carrying capacity my DervishBuckler has
Darkcloth studded leather
Scimitar
Darkwood light crossbow
10 bolts
2 wands (clw and shield)
2 potions
For everything else, there's a rank in handle animal and a pack animal.
Don't forget a Handy Haversack. Once you've got a Haversack (or even Muleback Cords) carrying capacity stops being a problem.
@Adam Teles: Muleback Cords go in the Cloak of Resistance slot, so you'd need it as a custom magic item which may not be available.
@Ubiquitous:
(Disclaimer: Off Topic, (Half) Joking)
Sarenrae is clearly among the most intelligent of the deities. What's the deal with so many gods picking such crappy favored weapons, often simple weapons that their Clerics are already proficient in? Asmodeus would seem to be a lot less clever than most give him credit for; his favored weapon might as well be the water balloon.
Don't forget a Handy Haversack. Once you've got a Haversack (or even Muleback Cords) carrying capacity stops being a problem.At an effective 7 strength for carrying capacity my DervishBuckler has
Darkcloth studded leather
Scimitar
Darkwood light crossbow
10 bolts
2 wands (clw and shield)
2 potions
For everything else, there's a rank in handle animal and a pack animal.
Muleback Cords, yes, Handy Haversack no. I wish people would actually pay attention to how much you can put in a Handy Haversack, it's quite small. You should only put stuff you're going to be using a lot, in the Haversack, everything else needs to go into Bags of Holdings or Portable Holes.
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Dervish Dance actually is overrunning PFS for all classes and archetypes that need to use one hand, such as magus, and if you search the PFS boards, you will find that some GMs dislike having these super-high-AC super-high-damage magi at their tables due to power reasons (I'm not one of them, but I've seen others post to that effect). One time recently there was a magus who used something other than a scimitar, and people were very surprised.Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?
No.
What more is there to say?
I am one of those GMs who hate those builds, but only because every one of them is effectively the same scimitar+shocking grasp build. It's like they're playing an iconic, and just changing the name. In PFS, unless some change happens, I expect the swashbuckler to have the same mind numbing sameness. Oh, and if the magus in PFS, which is always a Dervish Dancer, is broken, the 4-8 damage coming from Dervish Dance clearly isn't the cause.
Another example, in PFS, I play with a dervish dancer rogue frequently and he's no where near overpowered even if he were to get his sneak attack off every round. My battle oracle out damages him consistently and easily even in rounds when he gets a full sneak attack off.
I just ran for a competently played level 1 swashbuckler in PFS. He played it well, but he was fairly pathetic due to his inability to do any damage relative to virtually anyone else in the party. I think the level 1 barb did more damage in one round than he did all scenario.
Considering the change to Parry-And-Riposte, do you think the Swashbuckler still has the same defence at higher levels? That is, where it can solo things by simply avoiding incoming damage?
Basically, are you going to do more playtests? :D
Hmm, well Parry and Riposte is now significantly better at avoiding incoming damage in two specific and important ways--lower penalties for big opponents and the ability to save your AoOs and make the parry after you know what the enemy rolled. This wouldn't help Drew, the Mythic 'Buckler, very much, since she had Signature Deed and infinity AoOs. However, she would still get a small advantage in that since she parries after the enemy's attack is resolved, the mythic foes could not cleverly use their surges after seeing how good her parry is, attempting to surge when it is likely to make a difference.
The thing is that it is now worse at dealing massive damage with Riposte for high-Cha Signature Deed 'Bucklers than it was before, since you have to spend an immediate action. So Grace wouldn't be able to kill off Liebdaga before he had a chance to escape, for example. In fact, this was basically the only nerf that the class got.
Still, Rhiana's playtest is completely valid with the new 'Buckler as well.
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...
The Pro Dex to damage side have posted builds and math showing how and why they think its not to much including how only the fighter and the monk can actually take serious advantage of how it adds to AC.
The anti Dex to damage group has shown far less math and while there have been several anecdotal descriptions of how its ruined games the math rarely backs it up which means its much more likely that the player is a luck-sack like me. Balancing the game for lucky people on anecdotal evidence strikes me as poor. I dont think I want this as a feat because I do agree that a 2h or dual wielding fighter with this may <I honestly don't know on this one. I havent sdeen anyone do the math and I'm usually to lazy to do math to prove my point let alone disprove it.> be to much though I personally doubt it would break the monk.
That being stated no one on this thread is asking for that.. what they are asking for is a fairly undippable dex to Damage bonus with the same restrictions as the swashbuckler has on all its weapons because this class wants us to think it's Dex focused, and has to perform the same role as the fighter. Which it does poorly, though it does do them.
At the lowest levels the role is often kills the stuffs and survive doing so. The 2H and dual wielder do this a bit better because AC does not match the 100% inability to get hit that a dead opponent gets. If this game had a system where health was not all or nothing it might be different but on both sides <PC and adversary> 100 hp and 1 hp are still hitting your face just as hard. Stuff youre fighting around this level also rarely needs more then the 8-12 range to hit. Assuming the same to hit damage oped lowbie frontliner, not out of line in my opinion, Killing in one shot is just better then in two. Also reflex saves are good here because damage spells are kinda scary when you don't have hit points
At mid levels the role is be the most consistant at hurting stuff. Combat skirmish types are burstier or have battlefield control tricks that mean the damage they do is either staggered or given up for tactical space. The lesser role here is to keep things away from the guys in back because were sort of at a balance here and you don't need to always womp the PC casters first. The swashbuckler actually does its job right around here since its consistant damage. The reflex save still isnt bad here but you start to run into some save or sucks at this point that are awkward and often fort and will based but your charmed life keeps you probably okayish for now.
at high levels the role is to distract enemies from/Mop up after the reality warping squishies. And here is where the classes weaknesses really start to show. Its damage and tanking output are both below where they need to be plus it doesnt want any spell caster not throwing damage spells to take notice of him because the spells that screw him most are aginst his weak saves. He cant really handle skirmishers at this point either since they're either optimized better to feint his Dex to AC away or the monk might actually get to see his stunning fist work on a front line combatant for a change.
The class skill list is nice and everyone loves acrobatics and its nice to be able to party face with a front liner is neat but on a combat class these are window dressing or backups. The deeds and other things it gets are a grab bag which far to often seem to be either to little or to late or don't scale well into higher levels. Which wouldnt be so bad if the class could perform in a fight the way it should.
I'd like to give some constructive ideas on this class.. I really would but since I cant figure out for the life of me what its actually supposed to do other than make the rapier entry in the PHB less redundant or dip Dawnflower to get the agility, mobility focus, and general dashing rapscallion vibe the class thinks it wants. You want it to be mobile but it gets a base move speed with no play with move actions and a weirdly timed semi free five foot step. You want it to be an agile warrior but strength does at least as well buildwise. You want it to be genre flavored wear tights and spit pithy onelines in front of a backdrop painted of a film studio wall but it can use a heavy pick and Scizore.
I just ran for a competently played level 1 swashbuckler in PFS. He played it well, but he was fairly pathetic due to his inability to do any damage relative to virtually anyone else in the party. I think the level 1 barb did more damage in one round than he did all scenario.
Despite the fact that I'm probably one of the main people saying that we need to be VERY careful about mid-to-high-level swashbucklers' combat prowess, I am in complete agreement that the class starts pretty slow off the gate, and unlike dervish magus, it can't just pretend it's a wizard for a little while either. It's a problem that the swashbuckler shares with several other classes and archetypes (zen archer is a good example, since they probably want 13 Dex and no more, but they don't use Wis to hit until level 3), but it will be tough to remedy it without making the class very dippable. There may not be a good solution, but I'm interested in thinking one up. Have any ideas?
Lol.
It´s not necessary that everything is on par or functions similar. That would be boring. But is there some unwritten code that some classes and stuff just have to be weaker than other things?
There are some quite odd decisions (not only in this playtest or DEX related combat mechanics) that seem quite strange, because the reasoning for it is just strange. It´s mostly about things that would not be really strong, but often make weaker combinations that have much more flavor and are funnier to play actually worthwhile playing.
I just remember the halfling and slings case. Some things even seem that there is actually a powerstruggle between designers and their worldviews.
A lot in this discussions is more about beliefs than about actual balancing problems that are real and would have a shifting impact on the game. Which then would have to be seen in the light of some other classes and abilities that are quite over the top compared with others.
I think it would do the pathfinder game real good to find a common line in the design there, without a gap between core and the rest. Can´t be that hard.
I just ran for a competently played level 1 swashbuckler in PFS. He played it well, but he was fairly pathetic due to his inability to do any damage relative to virtually anyone else in the party. I think the level 1 barb did more damage in one round than he did all scenario.Despite the fact that I'm probably one of the main people saying that we need to be VERY careful about mid-to-high-level swashbucklers' combat prowess, I am in complete agreement that the class starts pretty slow off the gate, and unlike dervish magus, it can't just pretend it's a wizard for a little while either. It's a problem that the swashbuckler shares with several other classes and archetypes (zen archer is a good example, since they probably want 13 Dex and no more, but they don't use Wis to hit until level 3), but it will be tough to remedy it without making the class very dippable. There may not be a good solution, but I'm interested in thinking one up. Have any ideas?
The first thing to identify is how good should the Swashbuckler be at low (1-5) levels, and at what point does it become good with its current setup?
Should a Swashbuckler be rivaling a raging Greatsword-toting, Power Attacking Barbarian at 1st level? More inline with a sword-and-board Fighter?
Perhaps Precise Strike should be available from 1st level, as opposed to 3rd. It's only +1 damage, but every little bit helps.
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If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...In one corner: People running mathematical analyses showing that Dex to damage does not unbalance the game.
In the other corner: "I think it's way too powerful."
Corner One is the biased one.
I see.
In one corner: People who have professionally published books made for the 3.X generation DnD game with a total of 5 plus decades of experience...
In the other corner: The vocal minority.
You see how that can be flipped around?
Edit: I really need to raise my Will save against "bait" effects...
Replace "the vocal minority" with "the Wizards of the Coast DDN design team" if you prefer.
Now it's one set of professionals saying, "it's way too powerful."vs
Their predecessors, also professionals, saying, "it's not too powerful, in fact it's so not-that-powerful that we've made it a core option that doesn't even require spending resources to achieve... you can just do it."
Dex is still more valuable than Str in DDN, so the argument about it being a different game is minimal at best.
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...In one corner: People running mathematical analyses showing that Dex to damage does not unbalance the game.
In the other corner: "I think it's way too powerful."
Corner One is the biased one.
I see.
In one corner: People who have professionally published books made for the 3.X generation DnD game with a total of 5 plus decades of experience...
In the other corner: The vocal minority.
You see how that can be flipped around?
Edit: I really need to raise my Will save against "bait" effects...
Replace "the vocal minority" with "the Wizards of the Coast DDN design team" if you prefer.
Now it's one set of professionals saying, "it's way too powerful."
vs
Their predecessors, also professionals, saying, "it's not too powerful, in fact it's so not-that-powerful that we've made it a core option that doesn't even require spending resources to achieve... you can just do it."Dex is still more valuable than Str in DDN, so the argument about it being a different game is minimal at best.
DDN is a very different game from Pathfinder. This should not even need to be stated.
I think the main difference between the "Dex to damage is a good idea" crowd and the stance that the designers have taken is the area upon the power curve which attention is paid to. AFAIK the designers balance the game around the Core rulebook line and pay more attention to the iconic Pathfinder characters. This results in the two sides of the discussion being hopelessly apart in regards to the "power baseline".
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If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...In one corner: People running mathematical analyses showing that Dex to damage does not unbalance the game.
In the other corner: "I think it's way too powerful."
Corner One is the biased one.
I see.
In one corner: People who have professionally published books made for the 3.X generation DnD game with a total of 5 plus decades of experience...
In the other corner: The vocal minority.
You see how that can be flipped around?
Edit: I really need to raise my Will save against "bait" effects...
Replace "the vocal minority" with "the Wizards of the Coast DDN design team" if you prefer.
Now it's one set of professionals saying, "it's way too powerful."
vs
Their predecessors, also professionals, saying, "it's not too powerful, in fact it's so not-that-powerful that we've made it a core option that doesn't even require spending resources to achieve... you can just do it."Dex is still more valuable than Str in DDN, so the argument about it being a different game is minimal at best.
Not to quibble, but you realize that most of the Paizo designers predate the DDN designers, right?
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I'm still trying to figure out how Swashbuckler can be considered a Gunslinger alternate when they don't even get proficiency in any firearms. But then; this is the only one of the advanced classes that I see no use for. There are far better ways to make a good swashbuckler than take levels in Swashbuckler. Just the basic Rogue is pretty damned good at it. Take four levels of Fighter with your Rogue and you should be able to swash your buckle to your heart's content and you don't have to go through the annoyance of tracking Grit/Panache points. As such I would think that a Figher-Rogue combination would be better Alternates for this concept.
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Since the DEX to DMG argument is not likely to resolved, I think the best option is to push for CHA to DMG instead. That concept also fits with the swashbuckler; their sheer force of presence unnerves their enemy, thus allowing the swashbuckler to make an opportune and damaging strikes.