Revised Swashbuckler Discussion


Class Discussion

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aren Cordial wrote:
How sub-optimal is it really? Did the test account for AC differences? Because the playtest I recent ran with some friends(and yes Dex to AC) the Swashbuckler was phenomenal as a melee combatant. He did good damage, had a good AC, and frankly was a very solid build. Granted we ran it at 11th level. He could gain more offense or defense with panache as needed. The only complaint was some of the Deeds were things that would barely if ever get used. (genuine question not trying to be a you know what.)

Running the DPR on that vs a two hander with a slightly higher strength (because they don't need to be a well rounded bowling ball with their stats) they look REALLY close (27 vs 27 and change), which I think puts it around where it should be if dex to damage is in the equation. The swashbuckler has a few tricks and out of combat utility, but a tweaked out two handed fighter should be able to pull away

Mind you, 11 is where this guy really starts to take off. It looks like a fighter for high level play.

That's damage. I figure the Swash would have better AC would it not?

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Torbyne wrote:
Dispari Scuro wrote:
The Swashbuckler feat only works with one-handed slashing weapons. The human feat doesn't remove prerequisites. If it did you could pair it with Dervish Dance and add dex to damage with whatever you wanted. The feats don't work that way.

At first glance this looked like a case of specific trumps slightly less specific. But i see your point. Still useful to add versatility to Half-Elf, Half-Orc and human Swashbucklers.

Also, i kind of knew you wouldn't get 1.5 DEX but you would still get a 1:3 on power attack, no? Not enough to miss out on precise strike though... could it be that it is still balanced?!

Considering that the difference in Power Attack between 1 and 2 handed is 6 points of damage at level 20, 12 on a crit, so it's not as good as Precise Strike. A greatsword versus a rapier is only an extra d6, meaning 3.5 more damage.


As it stands the class uses too many swift actions, and is forced to use them proactively which essentially kills his options.

Charmed Life is a class ability that really should be a deed, and cost Panache.

Swashbuckler Finesse is great.

Weapon Agility (or whatever they decide to call it) ought to work like this:
Prerequisites: DEX 13, Weapon Finesse
Select one type of weapon that you can use with Weapon Finesse, you may use your DEX in place of your STR on weapon damage rolls. This damage is not increased by 50% when the weapon is used two-handed and the additional 50% damage from Power Attack when using a weapon two-handed is also not applied.

It turns Agile Weapons into a feat, which is exactly what you have with Keen vs. Improved Critical.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Shadar Aman wrote:
That's disappointing, but totally understandable. I admit that I'm mostly asking because I was hoping to try it out on some other classes. Do you expect this feat to be broadly available, or Swashbuckler only?
Not entirely sure yet. Still hammering out the details. If I were a betting man I would say it it will be as open as Dervish Dance is...so other classes would be able to use it as well, but it will have more utility for the swashbuckler.

BTW, I forgot to say, but this is freaking awesome! It opens so many character possibilities... It won't be as good as a 2-handed warrior, but dueling will finally be a viable combat style! :)

What about it being usable with any finesse weapon, but doesn't apply to off-hand attacks and cannot be used if the character is using a shield of any kind. Obviously, it shouldn't be increased by effects that allow the character to increase the Str bonus to damage, such as wielding a weapon 2-handed.

BTW... Any chance of opening up Swashbuckler finesse to slashing weapons without a feat tax? I look forward to playing and seeing Swashbucklers using whips, chakrams and longswords. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
It turns Agile Weapons into a feat, which is exactly what you have with Keen vs. Improved Critical.

Improved Critical can't, by and large, be taken until at least 8th level. Would you be willing to wait that long for DtD?


Shisumo wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
It turns Agile Weapons into a feat, which is exactly what you have with Keen vs. Improved Critical.
Improved Critical can't, by and large, be taken until at least 8th level. Would you be willing to wait that long for DtD?

It'd be kinda pointless make the DtD feat come later than 2nd level. If players have to wait 8 levels for it, they will simply take Dervish Dance instead.


ArenCordial wrote:
That's damage. I figure the Swash would have better AC would it not?

Maybe? Ac at that level is mostly itemization.

Is dex to damage from dervish dance or the agile property? If its dervish dance there's no contest, the fighter has the higher ac because swashy doesn't have a buckler.

The +3 from nimble isn't quite making up for the difference between the chain shirt and the fighters plate armor. If the Swashy is using the agile enchantment, then Bashy gets more to spend, probably on his armor to even things out.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
That's not to say I'm against a Dex-to-damage feat, because you designers have never shown me any proof that it's as unbalanced as you are famous for claiming,
I have never claimed such a thing. So watch generalizations.

I realize my generalization could have been worded to seem more... general(?) and I apologize that it wasn't.

However, to be fair, I can't be held responsible for an individual taking a generalization personally. ;)\
I mean, the statement, "the designers are generally against the idea of Dex-to-damage" is true, correct? Even if you aren't among them that agree with this idea, that doesn't stop making it true. :P


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I'm pretty sure the majority of players don't play PFS.


Torbyne wrote:
Dispari Scuro wrote:
The Swashbuckler feat only works with one-handed slashing weapons. The human feat doesn't remove prerequisites. If it did you could pair it with Dervish Dance and add dex to damage with whatever you wanted. The feats don't work that way.

At first glance this looked like a case of specific trumps slightly less specific. But i see your point. Still useful to add versatility to Half-Elf, Half-Orc and human Swashbucklers.

Also, i kind of knew you wouldn't get 1.5 DEX but you would still get a 1:3 on power attack, no? Not enough to miss out on precise strike though... could it be that it is still balanced?!

No. If you have a two handed weapon, you add 1.5 your str bonus to damage, and 3 damage per power attack bonus. If you have a one handed weapon, you add just your str, and 2 per power attack bonus. Plus two-handers have bigger base dice, which isn't much, but rapier vs. falchion's average is 1.5 more damage.

It doesn't sound like a lot, but dig the math post up. It starts off as a pretty nice boost, it goes up a couple times as you're cranking str through level ups, gains a point every time your level hits a multiple of 4 BAB, gains if you're getting a belt for more str. Might even go higher if you get clever with say, enlarge person. That's more str and an extra die for Mr. Two-hands. It's only 1 point more damage on average for Str Swash with a rapier itself though, and the Dex based swash actually loses damage because enlarge person drops dex.

Not counting size bonus weirdness, the fighter really does stay ahead until something like level 15. With it, even longer. And they're not getting screwed on crits. As I've laid out repeatedly. At 20 the fighter's down like... 2.5 damage per hit was it? After starting off up 4 or so, which matters more at that level.

ArenCordial wrote:
That's damage. I figure the Swash would have better AC would it not?

Again, not really. A fighter can wear full plate, without any movement penalty at higher levels. So, as long as you have at least 12 dex you start out with 20 AC (9 armor, 1 dex), while the best a swash can swing is 19 (2-4 armor 4-6 dex, 1 buckler).

The swashbuckler is trading armor around which is kind of a pain, the fighter has to either grab a shield (which they can bash with if they don't need the bonus against something) or get dex higher than 12 if they want to keep their lead. The swash will pass you if you slack off, but if you really care, you blow her away. Also, a fighter has great flatfooted AND touch AC. Deny the dex of the swashbuckler (which can be done in a ton of ways, including 1 point of str damage) and they lose basically the whole wad.

Neo2151 wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
That's not to say I'm against a Dex-to-damage feat, because you designers have never shown me any proof that it's as unbalanced as you are famous for claiming,
I have never claimed such a thing. So watch generalizations.

I realize my generalization could have been worded to seem more... general(?) and I apologize that it wasn't.

However, to be fair, I can't be held responsible for an individual taking a generalization personally. ;)\
I mean, the statement, "the designers are generally against the idea of Dex-to-damage" is true, correct? Even if you aren't among them that agree with this idea, that doesn't stop making it true. :P

You are currently arguing with the person designing this class that he's putting words in the design team's mouth.

Liberty's Edge

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I played a level 1 Swashbuckler in The Confirmation in PFS on Tuesday night, and came to some conclusions. Our party was entirely arcane except for my Swashbuckler. The rest of the party was- 1 arcanist, 2 wizards (one of them Ezren), and a Bloodrager.

Character:

Spoiler:

Human Swashbuckler

Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 7
Cha: 14

Feats: Extra panache, Combat Reflexes.
Traits: Dangerously Curious, Fencer.

Important Gear: Masterwork Rapier, Chain Shirt, Buckler, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, other adventuring stuff.

1. My damage was appalling. The Bloodrager was hitting for 2d6 + 13. He did 15 damage at one point, and announced that was his minimum damage. I was doing 1d6+2, so my maximum damage, on a critical was 16, only one better than his worst. I got fatigued, and then my damage fell to 1d6+1, meaning even with a critical my damage would be less than the Bloodrager. I really felt that my character was a bit of a passenger in combat, and just a meat shield (and not a very good meat shield).

2. My fortitude save was the worst in the party - the wizards and arcanist had better fortitude saves and this made me a bit concerned, especially as the first encounter was with monsters that required a fortitude save on a hit.

3. The Bloodrager had only 1 AC less than mine, and when he later swopped from his two-handed weapon to sword and board, his AC was better than mine.

3. The parry was good, and I had enough panache to attempt to parry every attack. However, I only managed one parry all night which was due to bad rolls. Nonetheless, it was fun.

4. Dodging panache allowed me to step back, and avoid a full attack and saved my Swashbuckler's life, so that was good.

5. Derring-do allowed me to make a critical acrobatics check.

Conclusions - I felt I contributed little to combat. It was a bit like playing a rogue without sneak attack, and with less skills. The Bloodrager made a much better martial character.


Do you have plans for that wisdom score or are you actively applying to the winning team ? :)

Liberty's Edge

Re: Dervish Dance and Magus:

Spoiler:

I played a Magus, and went with the Dervish Dance route. We had an all gnome party, but I decided to retire my gnome paladin due to his code causing too much PVP. I played a Goblin Magus pretending to be a Gnome, so I decided to take Dervish Dance to take advantage of the +4 to dexterity of a goblin. I actually regretted taking Dervish Dance as it was contributing so little to his damage compared the spell damage, I thought that the feat could have been better spent enhancing his spells.

Re: Dervish Dance and Swashbuckler:

I feel this feat is much more useful as a Swashbuckler. Depending on your build, it is better than Weapon Specialization. With the addition that Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse counts as a prerequisite for Dervish Dance, for one feat you can get dexterity for damage. I think every Swashbuckler in PFS will have this feat. I plan to take it at level 3 for for my Swashbuckler, and I am even considering that it might almost be worth it to retrain your 1st level feat at level 2 to gain Dervish Dance.

I think it is important to note that the PFS builds of Swashbucklers I have seen have dipped a level of Dawnflower Dervish to get Dervish Dance as a bonus feat, and some limited spell use.

That Dervish Dance is not in the Core Books is irrelevant to me, and everyone else that plays PFS.

PS It also appears in Qadira, Gateway to the East.

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Do you have plans for that wisdom score or are you actively applying to the winning team ? :)

I think I will retrain to a halfling for the PFS game on Saturday. I like playing small characters, and think that the Swashbuckler may be one of the best classes for a small martial character.

I will put up my Wisdom to 10, and combine Fate's Favored with Adaptable Luck to get +3 to saves 3 times a day without an immediate action. For my other trait I will shamelessly take Lessons of Chaldira. With that and my shirt re-roll, saves should be acceptable.

I may DM credit my way through the rest of level 1 and level 2 so I don't have to be the party anchor for those games.

Level 3 is a great one for the Swashbuckler, as Precise Strike and Dervish Dance both come on line. I intend to reskin my scimitar as a sabre. (I was actually disappointed when the cutlass appeared. It has exactly the same statistics as a scimitar, but it's emergence meant that you could no longer reskin your scimitar as a cutlass.)

Shadow Lodge

I am glad that we are seeing progress with some level on the dex to damage. I personally didn't like it as a class feature, but as a feat option might be nice to have for other characters as well.

have a few questions in regards to this go-around.

Firstly, Are the developers comfortable with the actions required for the swashbuckler? Taking an approach like "they have a list of awesome abilities, they need to pick one to use this round as an immediate action or a swift" or are you looking to change some stuff around?

Secondly, in regards to the gloves of dueling not working for weapon training, How complicated did that turn out? This isnt meant to sound disrespectful by any means mind you, but if it does the same for the fighter,

Gloves of Dueling:
These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Sure the cmd vs disarm isnt the best due to the other ability that we cannot be disarmed, but everything else works in my head other than the fact that it is called Swashbuckler weapon training instead. not sure on how making another item that does scarily similar effects will affect gameplay or fluidity of rules.

Lastly, Just wanted to share my thanks to you guys"the devs" for all your hard work and time put into this. You get a WIDE range of feedback from "F*#k you guys you suck unless you give me x!" to "Thank you soo much for everything!" It's a lot more than people realize and give you credit for.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Whos_That wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.
So...will you guys then be redesigning mythic finesse if this feat is available to all weapons?
It will not be open to all weapons. Basically it will not be Weapon Finesse (Mythic). It will be more like Dervish Dance. You get it for this weapon.

Only for one weapon? Not all light weapons? In that case can you pick it multiple times for multiple weapons?

I hope you hit it with a strength prereq and that it will be available for the scimitar too. Scimitar + pirates + high dexterity just feels right. Prereq 13 int would also make sense.


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It seems.... odd that Gloves of Dueling don't work with the Swashbuckler, yet it works with greatswords, axes, bows, and muskets and other 'non-dueling' weapons when wielded by a fighter.

If you were introduce an item that does, functionally, the same thing (ala Runestones of Power vs. Pearls of Power), what would it be called? Gloves of Swashbuckling?

Seems like a smarter design choice to just allow Swashbuckler's Weapon Training count for Gloves of Dueling.

Also, there is this FAQ ruling that specifically mentions weapon training and gloves of dueling.

FAQ wrote:

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/12/13

Considering the Swashbuckler is the child of the Fighter, I would say that the logic of the above FAQ extends to the Swashbuckler.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think Dex to damage should be a Swashbuckler Weapon Training option.

You'd be able to choose Imp Crit, Dex to Dmg, Confirm vs Touch AC (touche!), +Cha mod to AoOs, +Cha mod to CMB & CMD, maybe that +2 init (or Cha) and free Quick Draw deed changed to a Weapon Traing option, maybe increase crit multiplier by 1 (allowed at 17th), the ability to throw your rapier, bonus Critical Focus, etc. etc.

Anyways, a bunch of choices, that you could pick at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17.

That way, different swashbucklers would be different--and unpredictable.

Also, how about Good Fort, Good Reflex, and 6 skill points a level? Like the ranger.

Grand Lodge

Tels wrote:

It seems.... odd that Gloves of Dueling don't work with the Swashbuckler, yet it works with greatswords, axes, bows, and muskets and other 'non-dueling' weapons when wielded by a fighter.

If you were introduce an item that does, functionally, the same thing (ala Runestones of Power vs. Pearls of Power), what would it be called? Gloves of Swashbuckling?

Seems like a smarter design choice to just allow Swashbuckler's Weapon Training count for Gloves of Dueling.

Also, there is this FAQ ruling that specifically mentions weapon training and gloves of dueling.

FAQ wrote:

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Good research there Tels. Yeah it would be a lot easier and more consistent to just have it count.


About the whole DEX to damage thing: I have been wondering about precision damage not being applicable to all foes vs. DEX to damage working against everything.

IF DEX to damage + Precise Strike is considered to be too much, how about the Swashbuckler does get DEX to damage as a class feature, but with the caveat that it does not stack with Precise Strike?

In this case, the Swashbuckler isn't totally hosed if fighting something immune to precision damage and he still does get rewarded for a high DEX.

Sczarni

why not just invest in an agile enchantment on your weapon if you're worried about dex to dmg?


Lycar wrote:
IF DEX to damage + Precise Strike is considered to be too much, how about the Swashbuckler does get DEX to damage as a class feature, but with the caveat that it does not stack with Precise Strike?

Saving you from reading the last few pages- It isn't, getting a feat for it. Precise strike isn't something all swashbucklers use, just the ones who fight with one weapon, so anything that keeps you from benefiting just forces you into the generally better anyway option of fighting with 2 weapons.

Sczarni

how is it better anyhow? specifically for a swashbuckler... since they have a static modifier of damage that's respectable and doesn't impinge on their accuracy?


lantzkev wrote:
why not just invest in an agile enchantment on your weapon if you're worried about dex to dmg?

As has been pointed out, some of us start the game at level one, and agile isnt really affordable till level 7 or so, and thats only if you prioritise it.


lantzkev wrote:
why not just invest in an agile enchantment on your weapon if you're worried about dex to dmg?

1) Because the agile weapon property is a +1 equivalent, so you're investing over 8000 gold into having a +1 agile weapon, meaning by the guidelines, that should be available to you around 8th level.

2) Because the agile weapon property is in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, a source that you may not own (a concern for PFS play) or that your GM may not allow (a concern for other play).


I will join the rejoicing about hearing Dex-to-Damage will be considered!! Also a feat is more than I would have hoped. If it's just a Swashbuckler thing I'd understand, but a feat makes it much more useful and valuable for the broader game.

On an different issue of some controversy. Is there a reason given as to why they have poor Fort Saves? The Swashbuckler isn't a Rogue. It's parent classes had a good fort & ref and the other had fort as it's only good save. So can someone explain to me how the Gunslinger and Fighter combine to produce a class with a poor fort save.

Even from a design standpoint, why would you make a front line martial class and not give him good Fortitude? If the class was all about it's own mobility that'd be one thing, but as has already been discussed, that's not a part of the mechanical core of this class. And that's fine, but what then is the logic for them not having fortitude? Beyond the parent class argument (which, if that's important to you in creating "hybrid" class - see: Slayer skill points - is pretty big), the fact that Gunslingers, the class designed around their RANGED weapons, get it while Swashbucklers, a dedicated melee class, just doesn't add up.

lantzkev wrote:
why not just invest in an agile enchantment on your weapon if you're worried about dex to dmg?

To catch you up on the last several pages, the usual Dex-to-Dmg argument broke out. People asked for it as a class feature, people countered dex to damage is too good/broken, others pointed out that agile weapons and dervish dance are already a thing and clearly isn't, and then it just all devolved.

The problem can basically be summed up as this: on the meta-level that genie is out of the bottle, dex to damage exists in first-party-only pathfinder and thus is balanced with it. On the microlevel, whether or not one has access to these things is on a case by case basis (e.g.what if there are no Magic Marts?) and the current options are also very limiting (have to use a Scimitar or have to have this one enchantment as your second one always).

At the end of the day, you can't really try and split the difference by saying that something is too good to put in the game as a very valuable resource investment (feat), while simultaneously putting it in the game at 6000 gp and leaving it up to every individual play experience to hash it out.


lantzkev wrote:
why not just invest in an agile enchantment on your weapon if you're worried about dex to dmg?

1) Thats an expensive proposition that just keeps getting more expensive on you. (6,000 , 10,000, and then 14,000 gold)

2) You really can't afford it till level 7ish. Thats a LOOOOOONG time to go (half the campaign if you're lucky) dealing the damage of a moist sponge.


It really can't be stressed enough how much the bad fort save murders this class, yes. I don't think anyone would mind giving up the reflex save to get it, but a good fort save is pretty much a requirement if you're going to be up front taking all the hits.

lantzkev wrote:
how is it better anyhow? specifically for a swashbuckler... since they have a static modifier of damage that's respectable and doesn't impinge on their accuracy?

I think I just broke this one down, but here we go again.

There's 2 basic ways to build a swashbuckler. Method #1- Rapier and Buckler. Method #2- Twin short swords (kukris if you blow an extra feat).

Method 1- I attack for 1d6+str+2*power attack+my level. 15% of the time (30% later), I crit. When I crit, I instead do 2d6+2str+my level, and next round, I can spend the generated point of panache and my swift action to add my level to another attack. Comes out to the same damage as a regular crit (on par with a falchion, damage wise, give or take, when you crunch the precise strike math).

Method 2- I attack twice for, let's say I go kukri, 1d4+str+2*power attack (half str and 1*PA on the offhand hits). 15% of the time (30% later), I crit. With these crits, everything doubles. They're just normal crits. Now so far we're pretty much just looking at the classic two-handed weapon vs. two weapon comparison. Two weapons kinda suck because yeah, damage goes up when both hit, but you're not always getting the off hand hits and your accuracy's coming down a tad. That slow pendulum swing on precise strike damage means even if you only get one hit because you had to move a little, you aren't doing THAT much less at low levels though. If you're doing rapier and dagger or whatever, all you lose is the extra precision damage, for what it's worth.

However there's a very important difference here! Those panache points the rapier and buckler swash is generating and feeding back in for the delayed effect doubling of her precision damage, just to keep up with the regular double damage crits everyone else in the world gets? Double kukri swash doesn't need to spend those. They also get twice as many. you have this ridiculous influx of panache, probably coming in faster than you can find ways to spend it. Every round you can go for a parry/riposte at low levels, for yet another attack, and yet another chance at gaining back a point. later you can spend them on Bleeding Wound which is even better. Honestly, with a 15% chance each on 3 hits at level 1, 30% on 6 at level 11, you're practically guaranteed to get your extra attack or chance at inflicting stat bleed every single round. Not really likely to miss anything at higher levels either, so you aren't even going to see your damage drop off because of it.

Meanwhile, ol' Rapier there is just... power attacking with a twohanded weapon, essentially, from 1-20, shutting herself out of the lion's share of features her class gets. Mostly it's the weird arbitrary restriction on crit damage, but again, even without that, you're pulling in half the panache (assuming you confirm all these crits).

Fun bonus! Kukri swash can use piranha strike instead of power attack, if they really don't want to splurge on 13 str. You really do want to splurge on 13 str anyway, because wearing armor and clothing kinda helps you not die or get arrested for indecency, but precise strikers don't really have the option unless they downgrade their single weapon to doing d4 damage and either lose 10% of their crits or burn a feat to treat kukris as piercing.

Sczarni

I guess I'm building mind differently with manuevers in mind heh.

since you have the feats to spare if you're not investing them into two fighting and all that jazz.


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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

You guys are killing me with all these feat taxes. :(

What happened to, "I don't like feat taxes either"?

I think your definition of a feat tax and mine are a little different. Dex to damage right now lives in the feat design space, and in very limited ways. Opening that up to more weapons but not making it a class feature is not a tax.

If this proposed feat is open to everyone, I could agree it's not a feat tax. Possibly it should still be a swasbuckler bonus feat. If it is swashbuckler-specific, it is very much a feat tax.

My solution to swasbuckler damage is to move precise strike to 1st, then add dex-to-damage at level 3. Reduces the dipping.


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Googleshng wrote:
Exposing Strike: For your next attack (or if you really want to go nuts, while you have one panache), triple the normal critical threat range of weapon (20 becomes 18+, 19+ becomes 15+, 18+ becomes 12+). This effect does not stack with other effects that expand crit range (such as Swashbuckler Weapon Training). Obviously, this one would have to come at a real high level since it's self-fueling.

Make this always-on but restrict it as Finesse Strike, and this is the cure for TWF blues - now a single weapon gets as many crits as TWF does, and thus generates as much panache. Of course, there is also a restrictive way to do this - restrict Swashbuckler Weapon Training to only work as precise strike does.

The more this focus on a single weapon continues, the more I feel this class is really about casting spells with the off hand - like the 3.5 bladesinger. Might be room for a swashbuckler/magus combo.


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Vazt wrote:
Dex bonus to damage for this weapon group does square the class up with str fighters and I could see removing Nimble to compensate for the increase to ac and reflex that the focus on dex brings.

This is a really interesting observation. I am worrying that low-level swashbucklers have too low an AC. This class currently escalates AC quite heavily over levels. It has three places to put enhancement bonuses for AC: Dex, Buckler, Armor. And gets nimble on top of that. It might all escalate a bit too much. I would greatly prefer a low-level Ac boost and let the higher levels take care of themselves. Classes that have level-based escalating AC bonuses like the monk almost never use a shield, so they have one fewer place to put AC enhancements.


Starfox wrote:
Vazt wrote:
Dex bonus to damage for this weapon group does square the class up with str fighters and I could see removing Nimble to compensate for the increase to ac and reflex that the focus on dex brings.
This is a really interesting observation. I am worrying that low-level swashbucklers have too low an AC. This class currently escalates AC quite heavily over levels. It has three places to put enhancement bonuses for AC: Dex, Buckler, Armor. And gets nimble on top of that. It might all escalate a bit too much. I would greatly prefer a low-level Ac boost and let the higher levels take care of themselves. Classes that have level-based escalating AC bonuses like the monk almost never use a shield, so they have one fewer place to put AC enhancements.

See where you are coming from but the FEEL of nimble is perfect for the class, as it is most people seem to be calling the class out on not having enough things that play to the theme of the nimble swordsman who can dance through a battle. If you wanted to nerf the AC I would instead suggest amending the nimble text to:

Quote:
a swashbuckler gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor, and not holding a shield (including buckler). Anything that causes the swashbuckler to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC also causes the Swashbuckler to lose this dodge bonus.


master_marshmallow wrote:

Weapon Agility (or whatever they decide to call it) ought to work like this:

Weapon Agility
Prerequisites: DEX 13, Weapon Finesse
Select one type of weapon that you can use with Weapon Finesse, you may use your DEX in place of your STR on weapon damage rolls. This damage is not increased by 50% when the weapon is used two-handed and the additional 50% damage from Power Attack when using a weapon two-handed is also not applied.

It turns Agile Weapons into a feat, which is exactly what you have with Keen vs. Improved Critical.

Having one feat make another feat less good (in this case Power Attack) is not a good idea. Also, makes it less competitive vs. Dervish Dance. What you could do is prohibit using Weapon Agility with 2-handed weapons.

A feat can restrict itself in various ways. It cannot restrict other feats.

CathalFM wrote:
[Nimble:] a swashbuckler gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor, and not holding a shield (including buckler). Anything that causes the swashbuckler to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC also causes the Swashbuckler to lose this dodge bonus.

A TWF swashbuckler would love this wording!

But overall, swashbucklers really don't need lower defenses, what they need are better defenses at low level. So if we nerf nimble, some other ability should improve their defenses at low levels. Improving parry seems to be the obvious candidate.


How does it make it less competitive in comparison to Dervish Dance, OR make Power Attack less good?

Dervish Dancers can't two-hand their weapon for extra Power Attack damage anyway (they need a hand free), and gaining less benefit from a Feat is not the same as making it "less good". The Feat is still just as good as ever. You just can't make as much use of it. Nor should you, that's one of the perks of being Str based.


Sudden thought: feats that add DEX to damage might actually give the DEX based Rogue some combat utility too.


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Rynjin wrote:

How does it make it less competitive in comparison to Dervish Dance, OR make Power Attack less good?

Dervish Dancers can't two-hand their weapon for extra Power Attack damage anyway (they need a hand free), and gaining less benefit from a Feat is not the same as making it "less good". The Feat is still just as good as ever. You just can't make as much use of it. Nor should you, that's one of the perks of being Str based.

The 'perk of being Strength based' is being able to get 1.5 your strength bonus on two-handed attacks, rising to 2x with the correct options, or being able to get full Str bonus on both weapons while two-weapon-fighting.

It's unlikely dex-to-damage is going to get either of these options, and that's ok.

Adding a restriction to power attack on top of that is uncalled for and unnecessarily punitive to the point of just feeling petty.
(And it absolutely is making a feat 'less good' to say 'you can only use half the intended utility of that feat if you use this feat')

Shadow Lodge

Adam Teles wrote:
Usual Suspect wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out how Swashbuckler can be considered a Gunslinger alternate when they don't even get proficiency in any firearms. But then; this is the only one of the advanced classes that I see no use for. There are far better ways to make a good swashbuckler than take levels in Swashbuckler. Just the basic Rogue is pretty damned good at it. Take four levels of Fighter with your Rogue and you should be able to swash your buckle to your heart's content and you don't have to go through the annoyance of tracking Grit/Panache points. As such I would think that a Figher-Rogue combination would be better Alternates for this concept.

Grit. The premise of this class is a melee character that uses Grit points. Compare panache to grit and you'll see how it works.

As for fighter/rogue being a good swashbuckler... I respectfully disagree. I've seen people try it, and I've never seen it be good.

I get how Grit works, and Pinach is just Grit by another name. That's why they stack, even though a Swashbuckler cannot take levels in Gunslinger. It's still a crappy tack on that I have to track constantly through the game. And if you can't make a good swashbuckling fighter/rogue, you're doing it wrong.


I don't get the 'annoyance' of tracking grit/panache.

Is making a little line on your notepad when you crit or get a killing blow really so arduous?
And is it really that difficult, for some people, to cross one of those lines out when using an ability that drains it?

No, no it's not. It's half a second, and no effort.


Throne wrote:

I don't get the 'annoyance' of tracking grit/panache.

Is making a little line on your notepad when you crit or get a killing blow really so arduous?
And is it really that difficult, for some people, to cross one of those lines out when using an ability that drains it?

No, no it's not. It's half a second, and no effort.

I agree with Thrones disagreement, its not hard to track and it gives the swashbuckler extra "flair" which is what they are all about.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Maybe Nimble can also give Cha to AC when unarmored?


It's maybe a little more effort than tracking spells per day, or Ki pool or the other things that other people have to track, but not that much.

Besides, why would you take rogue with four levels of fighter for swashbuckling over the free hand fighter? Sneak attack? The free hand fighter gets stuff that gives him a variety of options, though his actual damage is still going to be pretty useless, and benefits from all those bonus feats. Meanwhile, if you put levels of rogue in, you're basically forced to use feint every round in order to get damage out of your character, you hit less often and you don't have access to the better fighter only feats.

But neither of those is as good a swashbuckler as the class presented here, because here you actually have the full BAB, access to fighter only feats, precision damage all the time instead of only on a feint, and the ability to hit more often with Parry/Riposte. Sure, the class has problems, but it at least makes a DEX based, single wielding combatant viable.


Currently the "other option" for the swashbuckler is either the slayer or some prestige class like duelist or Adari(?) swordmaster. Fighter/rogue is not really a competitor, and does other things.


SmiloDan wrote:
Maybe Nimble can also give Cha to AC when unarmored?

It would support the classic image of the swashbuckler in nothing but a loose shirt. :)


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LadyWurm wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
Maybe Nimble can also give Cha to AC when unarmored?
It would support the classic image of the swashbuckler in nothing but a loose shirt. :)

Armored Chest Hair.


Mirror Canny Defense from the duelist or kensai, one point of CHA mod per class level (or per class level beyond level X if it comes online later) I feel they are already planning on an Archetype just for that though, either per point of INT or CHA. If it is based off CHA mod we could end up with a Swashbuckler/Duelist adding three stats to naked AC... but you can already do that dipping MoMS/Kensai and point buy games mean those are three rather moderate stats. Would really help make the swordmaster theme work though.

RE: Ladywurm's loose shirt.

Trashy Romance Pirate (Archetype): +AC per poorly considered and barely fitting article of clothing? Also mad bonuses to diplomacy and bluff vs. anything with a gender?


Alright, setting DEX aside (as Stephen's acknowledged it)...Did we get a solid foothold on the Swash's action economy?

Immediate actions + Swift actions?

This guy is supposed to be a rapid, mobile fighter, doing it all (with style!)

Ideally in the final build I'll be able to deflect an attack or two on it's opponents turn, and then add twice my level in damage on my turn (or during these parrys).

Just wanna make sure all of that is do-able. (I believe it is currently?)

---

Also, final thought: I realized I pretty much don't care about any of the other class abilities... Targeted Strike I'm okay with, Bleeding Wound isn't bad and Evasive is clever...all the rest that involve panache however (Swashbuckler's Initiative, Grace, Superior Feint, Perfect Thrust, Edge) I find pretty useless.

I'm hoping we'll see an expanded list in the final version.
Do others disagree? Any of those abilities particularly useful to you guys in testing?


I think with a dex to damage option if they opened up Charmed life out of the swift action choke point and added some chandelier swinging it would be set.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
I think with a dex to damage option if they opened up Charmed life out of the swift action choke point and added some chandelier swinging it would be set.

Yep, and the list of precedent abilities is pretty vast.

Move and Full Attack by sacrificing your highest BAB attack (see mobile fighter)

Turn once up to 90 degrees along the path of a charge

Full speed acrobatics with no penalty

Moving through an enemy on the charge (I would use the charge through wording but replace overrun with an acrobatics attempt)

Ignoring Difficult terrain

Moving up to your speed as a swift action (see battle oracle surprise charge or quick runner's shirt)

Bonus to jump checks made as part of a charge and altered charge bonuses for doing so(swing from that chandelier!)

Maintaining Dex to AC when climbing

Standing up from Prone as a free/swift action

Moving around a target without provoking after a check (see murderer's circle)

All of these could fit the theme. (Standing from prone is already in there, I know but it still belongs on this list)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

They do get the AoO-free stand up and full speed Acrobatics (at least when moving through a threatened space) already, for the record.

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