Revised Swashbuckler Discussion


Class Discussion

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Contributor

proftobe wrote:
dude its not that its not in the game its that according to the DESIGN TEAM its too powerful and the only way it got in is because JJ has a way around them with GOlarion specific material.

I'm not James Jacobs, but I can almost guarantee that he wouldn't be pleased with you implying that the work done by the Player Companion and Campaign Setting lines "goes around" the work that the design team does. Not only is that false, but its also pretty insulting because it makes a bunch of those designers sound like sleazeballs.


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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
That and I'm always here.

I knew Paizo'd bought out the Tron project to imprison their developers within computers!

Anyway - beyond damage, beyond the complaints about weaponry (personally I think a Swashbuckler with a trident is awesome), my big issue with this class is mobility. There's some concessions to it! But ultimately Swashbuckler still suffers from the Melee Problem where they can deal damage or they can move, but they can't do both. The Deeds that enhance certain mobility-related things (Derring Do etc) don't help with this conflict whatsoever. Even 3.5 Swash had greater concessions to this (at least if I'm remembering right - Acrobatic Charge would be the ability name).

Letting melee move is letting melee do its job. At level 5 or so the flying and teleporting and various miscellaneous movement things come online and melee stops being able to either shield the softer members of the party or go after softer opponents. Letting Swash move will help with at least that latter part.

I can toss out some ideas if you like. If not I understand.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Since you're here, any ideas for reducing the current great MAD problem with the class? Maybe getting Charisma or Wisdom to damage?

We are discussing that. But at the same time I think "great" is a bit of a stretch. Any solution we come up with will likely not be added to the class, but could come in with feats. That said, we are still thinking about it.

That and I'm always here.

If it's a Q&A day for you, mind sharing your thoughts on the extreme dependance on swift/immediate actions, fort saves, str-free power attack, or some option to pop dex onto damage at higher levels/through a feat?

Contributor

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Since you're here, any ideas for reducing the current great MAD problem with the class? Maybe getting Charisma or Wisdom to damage?

We are discussing that. But at the same time I think "great" is a bit of a stretch. Any solution we come up with will likely not be added to the class, but could come in with feats. That said, we are still thinking about it.

That and I'm always here.

To be honest, whatever option you take in this regard is better served as a feat/magic item ability. Something that every Dexterity-based character can gain access to. If you pigeonhold a mechanic like that into the swashbuckler, then chances are every guide on the forums is going to multiclass swashbuckler to get Dexterity to damage.

I don't think Dex to damage makes or breaks the swashbuckler (or any Dexterity-based build), but I do think that giving it exclusively to the swashbuckler is as bad of an idea as it was to give it exclusively to the gunslinger. Only it works for the gunslinger because for that class, you're expected to be fairly terrible with guns anyway unless you're a gunslinger. As of late, I've been wondering if requiring people to multiclass swashbuckler in order to expand the list of finessable weapons is a poor move too. Slashing Grace, which awesome, is certainly a weak feat because that's all it essentially does.

Designer

Knick wrote:
On another note, since I see Stephen on here with his fancy helmet, can you clarify the panache gain on a crit fueling precise strike before I roll damage question? I think I have it right, but I would appreciate some clarity.

You decide to spend that panache before you make the attack (hence "on the next attack"), when using precise strike. So, if I understand the question correctly, you don't make an attack, see that it is critical threat or a confirmed critical, and then spend the panache to increase the damage, as it affects your next attack not your current attack.

That said, if that next attack is a confirmed critical of the right type, you do regain the panache spent.

Hope that helps.

Contributor

Fighter gets a bonus feat every two levels. Gunslinger gets a bonus feat every four levels. Would every three levels be a happy medium for the swashbuckler?

While the class isn't feat-starved when trying to achieve decent DPR output, it is rather feat-starved when you start trying to grab some of the other cool things that swashbucklers ought to be able to do, like tripping, disarming, dirty tricks, and so forth.

Seeing Piranha Attack get reprinted would also be a nice touch for the book.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Knick wrote:
On another note, since I see Stephen on here with his fancy helmet, can you clarify the panache gain on a crit fueling precise strike before I roll damage question? I think I have it right, but I would appreciate some clarity.

You decide to spend that panache before you make the attack (hence "on the next attack"), when using precise strike. So, if I understand the question correctly, you don't make an attack, see that it is critical threat or a confirmed critical, and then spend the panache to increase the damage, as it affects your next attack not your current attack.

That said, if that next attack is a confirmed critical of the right type, you do regain the panache spent.

Hope that helps.

Thank you! There is one more part of the question though. If I started with 0 panache, do I gain it when I confirm and then get the passive +level to damage for having 1 panache? The more I think about it, if this works I am more likely to take a chance once in awhile and spend that last point.

Sovereign Court

What if there was an ability baked in that worked like a kind of... power attack-y dex ability.

Angled Strikes: At X level, as long as she has at least one panache point, the swashbuckler gains the ability to circumvent her opponents defenses more thoroughly, striking toward very hard to reach places. As a free action a swashbuckler with this deed may sacrifice up to her Dexterity modifier from her attack roll in order to gain an equal bonus on her damage rolls for one round.

As a swift action, a swashbuckler can expend one panache point to double this bonus for 1 round. This Deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability that reduces a deed's panache cost (such as the signature deed feat).

Of course it doesn't necessarily need to be a deed, but that's the most obvious choice. Perhaps put it at seventh and stick targeted strike at 11th?

Just an idea.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Since you're here, any ideas for reducing the current great MAD problem with the class? Maybe getting Charisma or Wisdom to damage?

We are discussing that. But at the same time I think "great" is a bit of a stretch. Any solution we come up with will likely not be added to the class, but could come in with feats. That said, we are still thinking about it.

That and I'm always here.

To be honest, whatever option you take in this regard is better served as a feat/magic item ability. Something that every Dexterity-based character can gain access to. If you pigeonhold a mechanic like that into the swashbuckler, then chances are every guide on the forums is going to multiclass swashbuckler to get Dexterity to damage.

I don't think Dex to damage makes or breaks the swashbuckler (or any Dexterity-based build), but I do think that giving it exclusively to the swashbuckler is as bad of an idea as it was to give it exclusively to the gunslinger. And as of late, I've been wondering if requiring people to multiclass swashbuckler in order to expand the list of finessable weapons is a poor move too. Slashing Grace, which awesome, is certainly a weak feat because that's all it essentially does.

I think it is much better served as a class ability because the goal of the Swashbuckler is the Dex/Cha melee martial class. It would also be easier to balance and if you put it at level 5+ you are no longer dipping for it--you are multi-classing. Since Agile weapons exist (and it is 6000gp min unlike what someone else said earlier since you have to have a +1 bonus before applying abilities), this is available for other characters with ANY type of fighting style already, depending upon the game. Still, if we are keeping that out-of-bounds for now, having it as a class ability keeps the swash as the best one-handed finesse fighter (which it should be) and avoids abuse with unforeseen combinations (none that I can think of since some person in PFS would have tried it by now). Also, keep in mind that everything the swash has to bolster the fighting style right now is precision damage, and therefore it will not always be applicable. Besides, if every Dex-fighter build was trying to include Swashbuckler (or better yet, only Swashbuckler) the design is a success. The fighter/barb/pally have that Strength style pretty well covered.

Still, I am hopeful when Stephen says they are considering the MADness. I don't think Strength will ever be a dump stat (gotta carry that sword), but making it less optimal than Dex would be nice. I'm not sure how I feel about using feats to clean up the attribute distribution, since I feel it could easily fit in the class. As of now, the feats I can use to reduce MAD is Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Extra Panache, medium and heavy armor proficiency, etc. I'm not particularly thrilled by these options.

Also, since I'm talking about it, either a feat or a deed to let me perform swinging chandelier/rigging/long curtain charges would be greatly appreciated. I don't need it at an early level, I just need to know it will be available at some point. I'm not asking for pounce here.


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could definitely use more mobility. I understand if they don't want to throw pounce to one melee class, but charging around corners, off walls, and while swinging from chandaliers would be nice. I don't see anything in the class that really says "mobility" any more than the wizard is highly mobile because he's not wearing heavy armor.

I dipped dervish dancer for the dex to damage, and got expeditious retreat and feather step to win both showcases.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Since you're here, any ideas for reducing the current great MAD problem with the class? Maybe getting Charisma or Wisdom to damage?

We are discussing that. But at the same time I think "great" is a bit of a stretch. Any solution we come up with will likely not be added to the class, but could come in with feats. That said, we are still thinking about it.

That and I'm always here.

I would say great MAD

You need at level 1

13 STR minimum for sneak attack
High Dex for AC purposes and hitting people(15-17)
A decent CON (12-14)
13 int to take advantage of improved disarm feats
12-14 wisdom because dat will save
14 charisma for your features to work.

Let's stat this human.
13 str
17 dex (15+racial)
12 con
13 int
12 wis
14 cha

22 point buy! My Ranger would have had

17 str (2 racial)
14 dex
14 con
10 int
14 wis
8 cha

for 20 point buy and been more combat effective even without spells.

Swashbuckler is really close to being near where it needs to be. If you expanded the expertise feature to include the int13 requirement on improved disarm the "ideal level one stats" of a swashbuckler would be possible at 20 point buy.

13str
17dex
13con
10int
12wis
14cha

20 point buy


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

An idea: grant Combat Expertise as a bonus feat. As a deed, spend 1 panache to avoid an AoO when making a combat maneuver. That's some versatility, and you can dump Int if you're so inclined. If you want to be really good at a particular combat maneuver, then you bump either Int or Str and take the appropriate feats, and continue to enjoy the other utility provided by this deed.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

Fighter gets a bonus feat every two levels. Gunslinger gets a bonus feat every four levels. Would every three levels be a happy medium for the swashbuckler?

While the class isn't feat-starved when trying to achieve decent DPR output, it is rather feat-starved when you start trying to grab some of the other cool things that swashbucklers ought to be able to do, like tripping, disarming, dirty tricks, and so forth.

Seeing Piranha Attack get reprinted would also be a nice touch for the book.

The problem is Piranha Strike is designed to support a very specifically limited style, and swashbucklers are designed to support a very specifically limited style, but they aren't the same limits. Piranha Strike is for fighting with a pair of light weapons, swashbucklers (while still able to do that) are mainly designed around using just a single one-handed weapon. Twin dagger swash is really nothing to sneeze at at level 5 if they take it, but just-a-rapier swash needs her own power attack substitute if you want to get away from the One True Stat Array.

Flamdring wrote:

What if there was an ability baked in that worked like a kind of... power attack-y dex ability.

Angled Strikes: At X level, as long as she has at least one panache point, the swashbuckler gains the ability to circumvent her opponents defenses more thoroughly, striking toward very hard to reach places. As a free action a swashbuckler with this deed may sacrifice up to her Dexterity modifier from her attack roll in order to gain an equal bonus on her damage rolls for one round.

As a swift action, a swashbuckler can expend one panache point to double this bonus for 1 round. This Deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability that reduces a deed's panache cost (such as the signature deed feat).

Of course it doesn't necessarily need to be a deed, but that's the most obvious choice. Perhaps put it at seventh and stick targeted strike at 11th?

Just an idea.

That's 3.X power attack you're thinking of, which was a very nasty affair that rewarded some weird metagaming and didn't provide much bonus. Pathfinder power attack is -X to hit, +2X to damage, where X starts at 1 and increases at each multiple of 4 BAB. So, essentially, you're dropping to 3/4 BAB and trading each lost point of accuracy for 2 damage. Which ain't broke, so no need to fix it.

That said, it works just fine as a feat. Not everyone wants it, it's weird to link it in with panache. Slap it with the same restrictions as Precise Strike, maybe even require the feature before you can take it, and call it a day I say.

Speaking of swapping out deeds though, would anyone be sad to lose targeted strike? Either to get pommel swipe back or something else? Gunslingers get it because you can't use combat maneuvers from across the room, but when you're already standing right there there's just no point in even considering it.

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Swashbuckler is really close to being near where it needs to be. If you expanded the expertise feature to include the int13 requirement on improved disarm the "ideal level one stats" of a swashbuckler would be possible at 20 point buy.

That's not enough con to survive with without fixing the fort save. Also, you're barely scraping by on a 20 point buy. At 15, which is the standard for APs, and the average if you're actually rolling 4d6-drop-low the best you can manage to get your bases covered is more like:

13 str
15 dex (2 racial)
12 con
10 int
12 wis
14 cha

Maybe 14 str/10 wis if you want to lift things or do more than 1d6+1 for your first 2 levels. 1d6+3 if you power attack, but wow it's chancy with only a +2 to hit from stats.


It seems that this class is the most chaotic of the 10, in that we are seeing vastly different results from everyone. We've seen a swashbuckler solo an encounter 8 CRs and 6 MRs higher than it. We've seen its troubles over stat arrays. We've seen that the old version can actually achieve a damage output similar or even surpassing the most optimized CRB two-handed fighter, which is basically all the fighter can do. We've seen where Swashbucklers feel like they can't spend their panache due to the abilities that function so long as you have 1 panache being really good and useful.

Seems that when you step back and look at the class as a whole, and compare it to its base classes as the design team is doing with the Investigator, something has to give, but at the same time, something should be done to smooth out the play experience of everyone.


I'm not so sure about the naming of Charmed Life...if it was always in effect it would make sense, but right now it's more a...Semi Charmed Life.

/bops head


I'm also not a huge fan of how a guy with +80 to disarm couldn't disarm a level 11 swashbuckler because....reasons?


On the topic of Dex to damage, irrespective of whether or not it gets bundled with the Swashbuckler class or not, I think it's past time that we get a feat in the main PF books that mimics Dervish Dance, but opens it up to be used with any finesse weapon (or at least any 1-handed finesse weapon), and probably without the empty off-hand description.

If the design team thinks that is too strong (and there is PLENTY of evidence suggesting that is an irrational outlook), perhaps they should show us why they are taking that stance.

Bundling Riposte into Parry and changing the former to an Immediate Action removes a little of the feat-taxing on the class, as you no longer require Combat Reflexes to perform one of the "basic" class abilities. Still, I don't think Riposte needs to take an action--if someone attacks you 3 times, and you have 3 AoOs and 4 Panache (3 to spend), shouldn't you be able to use Parry 3 times and Riposte each time? Does that strike you as being too strong if you don't get to see whether the attack would hit you first, and are working off of a small resource pool?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Since you're here, any ideas for reducing the current great MAD problem with the class? Maybe getting Charisma or Wisdom to damage?

We are discussing that. But at the same time I think "great" is a bit of a stretch. Any solution we come up with will likely not be added to the class, but could come in with feats. That said, we are still thinking about it.

That and I'm always here.

I am uncertain how to best express my thoughts on this at the moment.

It´s kind of general questions and principles on the game design maybe.
Pathfinder is a real fun game and Golarion a well-written world. In other words you people did a great job mostly. I am not sure though if using feats to offer a small solution to some problems coded into the system is good thing.


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That feat is actually in the core books. It's a mythic feat, and Jason was still trying to figure out if it were too good for the Mythic ruleset.

For reasons, seems likely that it's the same reasons everyone always gives for not doing it. The same ones that people in favor just ignore :)

So may as well skip that discussion, 'cuz it's going to play out the exact same way as every other time that discussion has come up.


If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.


(Apologies for not reading thread before I comment)

I love most of the changes to the Swashbuckler. The releveling of the abilities and the addition of more cha-based ones are wonderful, but there's a few major problems still.

-Being able to qualify for Combat Expertise doesn't fix the problem of not qualifying for everything it's required for. Swashbuckler's finesse should say "...as a prerequisite for Combat Expertise and for feats with Combat Expertise as a prerequisite."

-Gunslingers get Dex to damage. Swashbucklers get level to damage that functions sort of like sneak attack. While level to damage is better at high levels, the fact that it doesn't multiply is annoying, and it stacks with the feat that gives Dex to damage when wielding a Scimitar, meaning an optimized Swashbuckler MUST wield a Scimitar. Swashbucklers should just get Dexterity to damage instead of Strength, perhaps at the expense of that +level to damage. They'd do a bit less overall at high levels, but they'd never lose it and they crit enough that 2x Dex is often better than their level even after their Dex stops being so. (And lets face it, you can have Dex equal to or greater than your level through level 5 pretty easily). Maybe then still be able to spend the panache point to get bonus damage on an attack, and have that be the +level.

-Charmed Life is cool, and I love it flavorfully, but how many saves do we make in a day? If this was just "Swashbucklers add their charisma bonus as a luck bonus to all saving throws" would it really be too good, when Swashbuckler's got two bad saves?

-Superior Feint should either be an attack action or last until the end of your next turn. As is, it does nothing for the swashbuckler unless you also Riposte that round.

-Why can't I be a swashbuckler with a Bludgeoning weapon? Is the reason 100% flavor-based? I've seen plenty of Swashbuckler-types in fiction fight with a wooden cane when they didn't have their sword handy and do so spectacularly. Sure, the cane is a less effective weapon, but getting dex to hit with it and being able to parry with it is an old standard. Similarly, the idea that I should need a feat to use a slashing weapon seems unnecesarry. It's not as though slashing weapons are "stronger" than piercing weapons mechanically. They're just different.


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Just for it to be ignored by people, same as it ever was.

Sovereign Court

Googleshng wrote:

That's 3.X power attack you're thinking of, which was a very nasty affair that rewarded some weird metagaming and didn't provide much bonus. Pathfinder power attack is -X to hit, +2X to damage, where X starts at 1 and increases at each multiple of 4 BAB. So, essentially, you're dropping to 3/4 BAB and trading each lost point of accuracy for 2 damage. Which ain't broke, so no need to fix it.

That said, it works just fine as a feat. Not everyone wants it, it's weird to link it in with panache. Slap it with the same restrictions as Precise Strike, maybe even require the feature before you can take it, and call it a day I say.

Speaking of swapping out deeds though, would anyone be sad to lose targeted strike? Either to get pommel swipe back or something else? Gunslingers get it because you can't use combat maneuvers from across the room, but when you're already standing right there there's just no point in even considering it.

I knew it functioned like 3.5, which was intentional so as to distance itself from the actual power attack feat and offer a stricter risk/reward system. Anyway it just seemed like a neat alternative to asking for direct dex to damage since we have little reason to believe that is coming.

As for targeted strike I don't really want it either. Maybe if it was pushed back to a later level and the effects improved a bit, but even then I think I'd rather see some nifty movement deeds come into play. A deed that lets you charge over difficult terrain (diving over tables and chairs?) or a deed that lets you provoke during a move that normally wouldn't in order to gain an attack that goes off first.


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Cheapy wrote:
Just for it to be ignored by people, same as it ever was.

Saying no without any convincing reason/argument isn't going to kill the discussion.

They want feedback? The feedback is that many people disagree with their assessment, and are providing arguments (as yet unrefuted) to explain their stance.

Sovereign Court

If they want to keep charmed life X/day they should have it's bonus double at ten or eleven.

I know it's a lot to ask not to get transported to a random plane the first time I see a prismatic spray, but mayhap you could give me a weeeeee little chance.


This version of the swashbuckler still lacks things effectively contribute to the party outside of combat once the game moves out the E6 range. Most abilities are combat related and the character will be increasingly sidelined in non-combat situations at higher levels. Good for browsing the internet, reading a book, or playing smartphone games while you wait for the next combat I guess.


Cheapy wrote:
Just for it to be ignored by people, same as it ever was.

dude we tried

Grand Lodge

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Can we please move Charmed Life to a 'Free' action if the saves are to remain as is? Last thing I need is to be post riposte and then be slammed with a suck or save spell or effect that I can't use my ability for.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Can one actually take weapon specialization with the swashbuckler?
Swashbucklers becoming proficient with aldori dueling swords would be awesome! As them being something more inner sea like, i would hate it if the katana would become the best weapon for them besides scimitars.

And really, the cutlass could use some love! Some more love as one feat!
Maybe some love coming naturally with the class.
Rapiers are only that cool over time. Fencing and precision stuff can be done with other things too^^


Yeah, they count as fighters for fighter feats.

With the new feat, Aldori swords are a decent choice.
Opens up dipping a level of Swordmaster for Deft Strike.


While I'm unsure about how much this would affect word count but instead of every swashbuckler getting the same deeds his about you work up a.long list that of deeds and you receive a certain number of deeds at appropriate levels. Lets say that you were creating a rapier only swash so you chose precise strike while those building toward a more sword and buckler focus might get a precise strike that gives you a bonus to Twf and one that gives Cha to damage. Just spitballing here but I think that having different deeds that support different combat styles would be a good idea.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

could definitely use more mobility. I understand if they don't want to throw pounce to one melee class, but charging around corners, off walls, and while swinging from chandaliers would be nice. I don't see anything in the class that really says "mobility" any more than the wizard is highly mobile because he's not wearing heavy armor.

I dipped dervish dancer for the dex to damage, and got expeditious retreat and feather step to win both showcases.

They should toss mobility into Derring-do. Something like "if you succeed a DC 20 skill check while using Derring-do during a move action, you can full-attack as a standard action that same turn"


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Charmed life needs to be a free action that can be taken when its not your turn . There are just too many cool things to do with a swift action on this guy . Some free actions can be, some can't (and a lot of abilities are a little loose with the distinction)

Grand Lodge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Charmed life needs to be a free action that can be taken when its not your turn . There are just too many cool things to do with a swift action on this guy . Some free actions can be, some can't (and a lot of abilities are a little loose with the distinction)

A definite yes from me.


Prince of Knives wrote:

Beyond damage, beyond the complaints about weaponry (personally I think a Swashbuckler with a trident is awesome), my big issue with this class is mobility. There's some concessions to it! But ultimately Swashbuckler still suffers from the Melee Problem where they can deal damage or they can move, but they can't do both. The Deeds that enhance certain mobility-related things (Derring Do etc) don't help with this conflict whatsoever. Even 3.5 Swash had greater concessions to this (at least if I'm remembering right - Acrobatic Charge would be the ability name).

Letting melee move is letting melee do its job. At level 5 or so the flying and teleporting and various miscellaneous movement things come online and melee stops being able to either shield the softer members of the party or go after softer opponents. Letting Swash move will help with at least that latter part.

While I agree, I can easily imagine this being one of the Swashbuckler archetypes - the mobility orientated swashbuckler.


Tels wrote:
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.

The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...


It's not really a bias if it's confirmed.


Tels wrote:
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.

They "need" to?

Hm.


Brutedude wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:

Beyond damage, beyond the complaints about weaponry (personally I think a Swashbuckler with a trident is awesome), my big issue with this class is mobility. There's some concessions to it! But ultimately Swashbuckler still suffers from the Melee Problem where they can deal damage or they can move, but they can't do both. The Deeds that enhance certain mobility-related things (Derring Do etc) don't help with this conflict whatsoever. Even 3.5 Swash had greater concessions to this (at least if I'm remembering right - Acrobatic Charge would be the ability name).

Letting melee move is letting melee do its job. At level 5 or so the flying and teleporting and various miscellaneous movement things come online and melee stops being able to either shield the softer members of the party or go after softer opponents. Letting Swash move will help with at least that latter part.

While I agree, I can easily imagine this being one of the Swashbuckler archetypes - the mobility orientated swashbuckler.

Considering every Swashbuckler I've ever seen in my entire lifetime is highly mobile and uses the environment in his fights... Mobility should be a function of the core mechanics for the class, not an archetype.


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MechE_ wrote:
Tels wrote:
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.
The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...

In one corner: People running mathematical analyses showing that Dex to damage does not unbalance the game.

In the other corner: "I think it's way too powerful."

Corner One is the biased one.

I see.


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Rynjin wrote:
MechE_ wrote:
Tels wrote:
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.
The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...

In one corner: People running mathematical analyses showing that Dex to damage does not unbalance the game.

In the other corner: "I think it's way too powerful."

Corner One is the biased one.

I see.

In one corner: People who have professionally published books made for the 3.X generation DnD game with a total of 5 plus decades of experience...

In the other corner: The vocal minority.

You see how that can be flipped around?

Edit: I really need to raise my Will save against "bait" effects...


We're not talking about the Papacy here. Otherwise, why have a playtest? Why solicit player feedback? They're the professionals and we're not.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Let's put it this way:

Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.

(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)

Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?

No.

What more is there to say?


MechE_ wrote:
Tels wrote:
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.
The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...

While you're right, and the tone of some of the posts definitely need to be taken down a notch or two (come on guys, the Devs are people too, and doing a herculean effort in reading everything we says), I would like to point out that one of the biggest issues of contention at the moment, is that we're not having a theoretical debate.

Dex to Damage exists and no one has a problem with it. The question is why are people (the Devs) okay with a +2 Sword that does it, or a feat that specifies one weapon for flavor reasons and requires one handed weapon, but not a general feat that does that exact same thing?

We know Dervish Dance is fine in PFS, so why can't you have the same exact feat printed in a rulebook that just specifies finesse weapons instead of Scimitars?

Or even something along the lines of a feat that just does Dex to Damage with Finesse Weapons, but requires a +8 BAB or Combat Expertise as part of the pre-reqs?


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MechE_ wrote:
Tels wrote:
If the Design Team wants to back up the claim that Dex to damage is too strong, then they need to show hundreds of play examples, theory craft, and builds that show just how broken Dex to damage really is.
The "we're right and they're wrong" attitude that's present is exactly the reason that they simply ignore all conversations regarding dex to damage. I've always found that he who cannot set aside his own biases and open his mind to see things from another man's perspective is unlikely to have perspectives I care to look at the world from...

Oh, so you agree with me then?

While I may be the most outspoken and offensive person advocating Dex to damage, the many others who have played with Dex to damage in home games, PFS, theorycraft or builds don't have the 'we're right, they are wrong' mentality.

For the most part, the people playing with Dex to Damage don't have any opinion at all, they are just playing. They are attending PFS events and conventions with their Dervish Dancer Bards, Dervish Dancer Magi, Agile weapon dagger rogues, or even an unarmed strike, Agile AoMF Inquisitor of Irori I saw once (which I thought was an awesome concept) are just playing, and aren't voicing their opinion on the boards.

Huge numbers of people are playing with agile and dervish dance, yet, by the Design Teams stance, they are playing with an extremely broken ability. In fact, it's so brokenly powerful, that it shouldn't even be a Mythic Feat.

So you have thousands, if not tens of thousands of people playing with Dex to damage in their games, or in their theorycraft, or their builds, and the Game hasn't suddenly imploded from the over-powered Dex to damage that they are using.

Despite all this, the Design Team still has the stance that Dex to Damage is too powerful, even for a Mythic Feat.

So of the two of us, which group has the stance of "We're right, and they're wrong" that you are trying to chastise me for?


ubiquitous wrote:

Let's put it this way:

Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.

(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)

Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game? No.

What more is there to say?

Dervish Dance also isn't core. It's in Inner Sea Magic, which is a Golarion setting book.

As far as the Core line of rulebooks are concerned, Dex to Damage only exists as a Mythic tier feat, which may be too good as is.


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MechE_ wrote:


In one corner: People who have professionally published books made for the 3.X generation DnD game with a total of 5 plus decades of experience...

In the other corner: The vocal minority.

You see how that can be flipped around?

Appeal to Authority is just as much of a fallacy as it has ever been.

Your experience does not give your opinions more weight if they are not backed up by something.

This opinion has never been backed up, and has in fact been disproven multiple times.

Also, experience is not cumulative. I don't know why people keep thinking it is.

If you have 5 guys with 2 years of experience apiece, your company does not have 10 years of experience. It doesn't work that way.


ubiquitous wrote:

Let's put it this way:

Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.

(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)

Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?

No.

What more is there to say?

Dervish Dance actually is overrunning PFS for all classes and archetypes that need to use one hand, such as magus, and if you search the PFS boards, you will find that some GMs dislike having these super-high-AC super-high-damage magi at their tables due to power reasons (I'm not one of them, but I've seen others post to that effect). One time recently there was a magus who used something other than a scimitar, and people were very surprised.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, but this discussion is going nowhere it hasn't gone before and isn't really addressing the Swashbuckler's mechanics as written.


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MechE_ wrote:
ubiquitous wrote:

Let's put it this way:

Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.

(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)

Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game? No.

What more is there to say?

Dervish Dance also isn't core. It's in Inner Sea Magic, which is a Golarion setting book.

As far as the Core line of rulebooks are concerned, Dex to Damage only exists as a Mythic tier feat, which may be too good as is.

Just pointing out, your example of it being too strong is in the context of it working with non-finesse weapons. Which, in the context of swashbuckler, could easily be limited to just specific swashbuckler weapons. Nobody's going to be making a greatsword swashbuckler, in other words.

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