Yeah I am already okay with combat inspiration right where it is.
I am not sure if I would take it... but if you are focusing on a type of Combat Maneuver, then it can be pretty excellent. For saving throws, I would be okay eating the 2 expenditures when it comes up.
If studied combat becomes Duration = Int Mod, +1/2 level to melee attack and damage rolls, with a big smack at the end via Studied Strike.. then I think the investigator is right where it should be in combat.... which is not very good but absolutely appropriate considering the level of raw utility and versatility outside of combat.
THe only other thing I would like to add, and this is not specific to the investigator, but would operate for all classes, is a list of high-level pseudo-supernatural uses for skills.
There are a hundred instances of spells stepping on the toes of skills. Spells to find secret doors, track, disable traps, find traps, sneak around, climb walls, swim, jump, avoid AoOs, escape bonds or grapples, bluff, intimidate, gather information, charm/diplomacize, steal, and on and on.
It would, in my opinion, be VERY cool to flip that around a little bit and allow very high skill checks to push the boundary of mundane and magical.
Here are some examples, and these would all be in the DC 30+ range:
-Very high perception can begin to sense or even see magical auras. DC 30 mimics detect magic while searching, DC 40 mimics arcane sight.
-Very high stealth can get around some divination and hide without cover. Hiding in plain sight without the ability would be a check at -30. Characters with 10 or more ranks in stealth get a +2 on will saves to avoid scrying and other divination effects; if they are actively hiding, their will save is replaced by their stealth check.
-Very high sense motive getting a sense of a target's alignment by studying them. DC 30 check mimics Detect Alignment.
-Very high Heal check getting to zero in on how many hitpoints a target has, predict what age they will die at naturally, and getting to know their physical statistics. DC 20+target CR gives number of HD, constitution score, strength score and dex score via observation.
-Very High knowledge checks granting a bonus to saving throws against an identified creature. Identify DC beaten by 20 grants a +2 on saving throws against that target.
-Very High bluff allowing a character to 'pretend' a different alignment so well that it fools detection spells and even alignment based spells. DC 30 check mimics nondetection for detect spells, and DC 40 changes the character's alignment for spell effect purposes.
-Very high disguise allowing a character to effectively change their race or type for spell effects when disguised. DC 30 check changes the character's type to a new one for the purposes of being targeted and spell effects.
-Very High survival that allows a tracker to identify the exact type of creature being tracked, how many, how long, light-med-heavy loads, wounded, not wounded etc etc. Beat the track DC by 20+ to get extra information listed.
-Very high alchemy allowing a character with brew potion to create 5th level potions. DC 30-40 check as part of the crafting process.
-Very high spellcraft (DC 30+spell level) allowing a character to cast a metamagic spell with no increased casting time.
And so on and so on... This could easily be presented as an optional rule-set.
I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned before... but what if we changed studied strike to act more like a paladin's smite. You could spend a point of inspiration for a Int mod to hit and investigator using level for damage. Of course it wouldn't have any alignment requirements, combat advantage or bypass DR. You could grant the ability at level 2 or 3.
This would probably be a step down from the current proposed version of the ability that lets it activate as a move action (promote-able to a swift) if only because the accuracy bonus will eventually outstrip the intelligence modifier eventually and the unlimited nature of that version will probably incentivize people to use it in every fight.
If you think it could use a step down then that is another discussion entirely I think.
Well I was talking about studied combat and studied strike...this is a different thing entirely. And something I'm sure you will not see. You are right, there are a lot of things to spend inspiration on. We don't see that as an issue.
Its not an issue, in my opinion, because while there are plenty of things to spend inspiration on, there are also plenty of things that reduce (or remove) the cost of spending inspiration.
It really gives the investigator a sense of specialization when the character isn't required to spend a resource to do something other investigators are required to.
Maybe something like this
You could use points of inspiration or follow the paladins smite progression to limit uses per day.
Studied Strike (Ex):
At 2nd level, an investigator can
choose to make a studied strike against the target of his
studied combat As a swift action, the Investigator chooses one target within sight. The Investigator adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her Investigator level to all damage rolls made against the target of her studied strike. The damage of studied strike is precision
damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit; creatures
that are immune to sneak attack are also immune to
studied strike.
If the investigator’s attack used a weapon that deals
nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed
strike), he may choose to have the additional damage
from studied strike be nonlethal damage instead of
lethal damage. If the investigator chose to make an attack
with a lethal weapon instead do nonlethal damage (with
the usual –4 penalty), the studied strike damage may also
deal nonlethal damage.
The investigator must be able to see the target well
enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach
such a spot. An investigator cannot use studied strike
against a creature with concealment.
I don't wanna limit their ability to fight. Everything they have is a limited resource besides studied combat and they should be able to do some stuff without eating their inspiration resource. Sneak attack did that and the current discussion of studied combat and strike do that as well.
Okay looked at the proposed changes and I know my view on the Melee part has already been noted. However I am curious so if you dont mind me asking is there a specific reason on having it only work on melee attacks?
I do apolagise if i am coming across as persistent but I really am curious
Because it has a extremely low barrier for target designation. Look at the target designation for ranged sneak attack. And look at the target designation for this ability. In order to gain your sneak attack you have to either gain surprise or set up stealth, this one all you have to do is point.
And while this does not have the damage dealing potential of sneak attack, it has more damage dealing potential than typical ranged abilities for a character of this type. Allowing you to just designate, hide behind something and deal damage from a distance is not the dashing, and ever-confident figure we want to create with this class. Not to even go into his abilities with poison which only compounds the issue.
While we may have an archetype that deals with ranged combat, the core class will not be able to use studied combat or studied strike with ranged attacks. And if there is a archetype, those abilities will likely be restricted and lesser than the ability as it now stands.
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Okay looked at the proposed changes and I know my view on the Melee part has already been noted. However I am curious so if you dont mind me asking is there a specific reason on having it only work on melee attacks?
I do apolagise if i am coming across as persistent but I really am curious
Because it has a extremely low barrier for target designation. Look at the target designation for ranged sneak attack. And look at the target designation for this ability. In order to gain your sneak attack you have to either gain surprise or set up stealth, this one all you have to do is point.
And while this does not have the damage dealing potential of sneak attack, it has more damage dealing potential than typical ranged abilities for a character of this type. Allowing you to just designate, hide behind something and deal damage from a distance is not the dashing, and ever-confident figure we want to create with this class. Not to even go into his abilities with poison which only compounds the issue.
While we may have an archetype that deals with ranged combat, the core class will not be able to use studied combat or studied strike with ranged attacks. And if there is a archetype, those abilities will likely be restricted and lesser than the ability as it now stands.
Could you perhaps explain what you mean of more ranged damage dealing potential than typical character of this type because honestly not trying to be argumentative but I have a hard time thinking of any outside of an NPC class
I think Stephen is referring to the static bonuses to damage through studied combat. Usually ranged combat is balance (at least somewhat) by the investment of ability scores into hitting as opposed to damage. This class would require no investment in strength to be an amazing damage dealer at range if studied combat worked. Studied strike is just gravy on top.
Okay looked at the proposed changes and I know my view on the Melee part has already been noted. However I am curious so if you dont mind me asking is there a specific reason on having it only work on melee attacks?
I do apolagise if i am coming across as persistent but I really am curious
Because it has a extremely low barrier for target designation. Look at the target designation for ranged sneak attack. And look at the target designation for this ability. In order to gain your sneak attack you have to either gain surprise or set up stealth, this one all you have to do is point.
And while this does not have the damage dealing potential of sneak attack, it has more damage dealing potential than typical ranged abilities for a character of this type. Allowing you to just designate, hide behind something and deal damage from a distance is not the dashing, and ever-confident figure we want to create with this class. Not to even go into his abilities with poison which only compounds the issue.
While we may have an archetype that deals with ranged combat, the core class will not be able to use studied combat or studied strike with ranged attacks. And if there is a archetype, those abilities will likely be restricted and lesser than the ability as it now stands.
Just let me have my guns, MacFarland! Let me have my guns and my chiaroscuro lighting effects.
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I think Stephen is referring to the static bonuses to damage through studied combat. Usually ranged combat is balance (at least somewhat) by the investment of ability scores into hitting as opposed to damage. This class would require no investment in strength to be an amazing damage dealer at range if studied combat worked. Studied strike is just gravy on top.
Think that boat sailed when alchemists got bombs or firearms (That hit touch remember) were put into the game.
I don't think the issue is with it being completely OP, just that it would be a stronger option than the Investigator should have given all of his out of combat abilities. I really don't think a ranged Investigator would be any better than a ranged Inquisitor for instance, but and Investigator is by design supposed to be less powerful in combat than said Inquisitor.
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Could you perhaps explain what you mean of more ranged damage dealing potential than typical character of this type because honestly not trying to be argumentative but I have a hard time thinking of any outside of an NPC class
By ranged damage abilities for a character of this type I mean sneak attack or precise strike (which has its own limits on ranged based on weapon type). I just have to pick a target, readiness or position means nothing to the investigator. If the proposed changes occur, you gain half your level in bonus damage and a fairly high base attack bonus, compared to that of the rogue. And you gain that ever time, along with what you can choose with your studied strike. If we then add condition adding talents along with that, you can apply those as well. Add poison and firearms to the mix, and we start getting into territory that is squarely outside the role we want the inquisitor to fill.
Hence, no ranged attack on studied attack and studied strike in the class itself.
Could you perhaps explain what you mean of more ranged damage dealing potential than typical character of this type because honestly not trying to be argumentative but I have a hard time thinking of any outside of an NPC classBy ranged damage abilities for a character of this type I mean sneak attack or precise strike (which has its own limits on ranged based on weapon type). I just have to pick a target, readiness or position means nothing to the investigator. If the proposed changes occur, you gain half your level in bonus damage and a fairly high base attack bonus, compared to that of the rogue. And you gain that ever time, along with what you can choose with your studied strike. If we then add condition adding talents along with that, you can apply those as well. Add poison and firearms to the mix, and we start getting into territory that is squarely outside the role we want the inquisitor to fill.
Hence, no ranged attack on studied attack and studied strike in the class itself.
Hmmm, while I can see where you're right about this that does leave us with a class who has no real ranged options to use with his abilities (save buffs from his extracts and inspiration).
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Could you perhaps explain what you mean of more ranged damage dealing potential than typical character of this type because honestly not trying to be argumentative but I have a hard time thinking of any outside of an NPC classBy ranged damage abilities for a character of this type I mean sneak attack or precise strike (which has its own limits on ranged based on weapon type). I just have to pick a target, readiness or position means nothing to the investigator. If the proposed changes occur, you gain half your level in bonus damage and a fairly high base attack bonus, compared to that of the rogue. And you gain that ever time, along with what you can choose with your studied strike. If we then add condition adding talents along with that, you can apply those as well. Add poison and firearms to the mix, and we start getting into territory that is squarely outside the role we want the inquisitor to fill.
Hence, no ranged attack on studied attack and studied strike in the class itself.
Yeah but it has it's own set of limitations as well Including needing a move action to activate (Swift with a trait) and only lasts a number of rounds equal to Intelligence and only works on a guy once every 24 hours.
Yeah but it has it's own set of limitations as well Including needing a move action to activate (Swift with a trait) and only lasts a number of rounds equal to Intelligence and only works on a guy once every 24 hours.
Yes. I did mention a barrier. A low barrier comparatively.
Hmmm, while I can see where you're right about this that does leave us with a class who has no real ranged options to use with his abilities (save buffs from his extracts and inspiration).
You mean except for inspiration and poison use? And the fact that he is proficient in hand crossbows and other ranged weapons? Sure. He is no archer, but he is not really designed to be one.
Inspiration he mentioned.
Honestly, I don't think Poison Use should be factored into a PCs arsenal 99.99% of the time. Poison is either too expensive, too slow, or both for PC characters to make good use of. It's nice to have if you stumble across some leftover poison from an enemy and want a little extra boost on your weapon, but not something you can count on.
That said, I don't think the Investigator needs to be a superb archer, though the option would be nice. He needs combat capability for sure, but expecting the skill monkey to be as well rounded as the switch hitting Ranger in combat is a bit much.
Though if there's not a ranged capable Investigator archetype, I'd be very surprised, and somewhat disappointed.
Well, it looks like Zohls has finally found her ideal worshiper-class. :)
Could you perhaps explain what you mean of more ranged damage dealing potential than typical character of this type because honestly not trying to be argumentative but I have a hard time thinking of any outside of an NPC classBy ranged damage abilities for a character of this type I mean sneak attack or precise strike (which has its own limits on ranged based on weapon type). I just have to pick a target, readiness or position means nothing to the investigator. If the proposed changes occur, you gain half your level in bonus damage and a fairly high base attack bonus, compared to that of the rogue. And you gain that ever time, along with what you can choose with your studied strike. If we then add condition adding talents along with that, you can apply those as well. Add poison and firearms to the mix, and we start getting into territory that is squarely outside the role we want the inquisitor to fill.
Hence, no ranged attack on studied attack and studied strike in the class itself.
Couldn't you allow Studied Combat to work with all weapon attacks and restrict Studied Strike to melee attacks? As written, studied combat's bonus to hit and to damage is fairly comparable to Favored Enemy.
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Could you perhaps explain what you mean of more ranged damage dealing potential than typical character of this type because honestly not trying to be argumentative but I have a hard time thinking of any outside of an NPC classBy ranged damage abilities for a character of this type I mean sneak attack or precise strike (which has its own limits on ranged based on weapon type). I just have to pick a target, readiness or position means nothing to the investigator. If the proposed changes occur, you gain half your level in bonus damage and a fairly high base attack bonus, compared to that of the rogue. And you gain that ever time, along with what you can choose with your studied strike. If we then add condition adding talents along with that, you can apply those as well. Add poison and firearms to the mix, and we start getting into territory that is squarely outside the role we want the inquisitor to fill.
Hence, no ranged attack on studied attack and studied strike in the class itself.
Well if it's a balance issue mostly then how about reguiring the use of one of his talents in order to make use of it? and/or saying that Quick study inspiration dosent work with ranged?
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Keep in mind that ranged styles are about lots of attacks, with small bonuses to damage.
If you can get a flat +5 to damage and hit against the foe, and then let loose a manyshot/rapid shot...
I can see a good reason for it being melee only.
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Keep in mind that ranged styles are about lots of attacks, with small bonuses to damage.
If you can get a flat +5 to damage and hit against the foe, and then let loose a manyshot/rapid shot...
I can see a good reason for it being melee only.
Freebooter Ranger says "Hai."
Same action to activate too. And an untyped bonus that he gives to his allies at that!
Keep in mind that ranged styles are about lots of attacks, with small bonuses to damage.
If you can get a flat +5 to damage and hit against the foe, and then let loose a manyshot/rapid shot...
I can see a good reason for it being melee only.
Freebooter Ranger says "Hai."
Same action to activate too. And an untyped bonus that he gives to his allies at that!
Heck, there are guys with bigger badder bonuses and full BAB.
Heck, there are guys with bigger badder bonuses and full BAB.Keep in mind that ranged styles are about lots of attacks, with small bonuses to damage.
If you can get a flat +5 to damage and hit against the foe, and then let loose a manyshot/rapid shot...
I can see a good reason for it being melee only.
Freebooter Ranger says "Hai."
Same action to activate too. And an untyped bonus that he gives to his allies at that!
Freebooter Ranger is actually one of my favorite archetypes in the game. Promotes team play. Awesome ability that isn't very limited. Overall an excellent character option; especially for Ranger dips.
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So I saw some comments regarding the class not having a reason to go with a Str build and would like to address those. A Strength build can actually work rather well starting right at first level so long as you make proper use of your ability to quaff extracts.
With a 16 Strength and a Longsword you'll have a +3 on attack rolls, but will deal 1d8+4 damage. Prepare two Shield Extracts and you can have a 20 AC with Lamellar (Leather) armor and a 14 Dex. Really you just need an ally to flank with or to cast an attack boosting spell on you and you're in good shape for combat.
At level 2 pick up a Masterwork sword and your chance to hit goes up to +5 and unless you've got some handy spell casters you may as well keep prepping Shield Extracts.
At level 3 you'll pick up your first Talent, I'd suggest grabbing the ability to make a Strength Mutagen. That way at least once a day you can go up to 20 Strength and gain +2 AC for a combat, dealing 1d8+7 damage with +8 chance to hit. I pick up Power Attack now.
At level 4 you boost up a stat, with my build I started at 15 Int so I pump it 16. I've spent my gold on some AC boosting items by now and should have an 18 AC before buffs. I can now make two Bull's Strength Extracts and a Strength Mutagen, so my Str should be 20 in at least 3 fights today. I'll also be using Studied Combat on targets, so with power attack and holding the Longsword in both hands I deal 1d8+12 damage with a +9 attack bonus.
That's not bad early damage at all, and it'll keep scaling up nicely as I level.
Wouldn't that Strength Mutagen be negatively effecting your ability to use Studied Combat and Studied Strike? It does subtract 2 from your INT afterall...
Wouldn't that Strength Mutagen be negatively effecting your ability to use Studied Combat and Studied Strike? It does subtract 2 from your INT afterall...So I saw some comments regarding the class not having a reason to go with a Str build and would like to address those. A Strength build can actually work rather well starting right at first level so long as you make proper use of your ability to quaff extracts.
With a 16 Strength and a Longsword you'll have a +3 on attack rolls, but will deal 1d8+4 damage. Prepare two Shield Extracts and you can have a 20 AC with Lamellar (Leather) armor and a 14 Dex. Really you just need an ally to flank with or to cast an attack boosting spell on you and you're in good shape for combat.
At level 2 pick up a Masterwork sword and your chance to hit goes up to +5 and unless you've got some handy spell casters you may as well keep prepping Shield Extracts.
At level 3 you'll pick up your first Talent, I'd suggest grabbing the ability to make a Strength Mutagen. That way at least once a day you can go up to 20 Strength and gain +2 AC for a combat, dealing 1d8+7 damage with +8 chance to hit. I pick up Power Attack now.
At level 4 you boost up a stat, with my build I started at 15 Int so I pump it 16. I've spent my gold on some AC boosting items by now and should have an 18 AC before buffs. I can now make two Bull's Strength Extracts and a Strength Mutagen, so my Str should be 20 in at least 3 fights today. I'll also be using Studied Combat on targets, so with power attack and holding the Longsword in both hands I deal 1d8+12 damage with a +9 attack bonus.
That's not bad early damage at all, and it'll keep scaling up nicely as I level.
1 round of non use versus 30 minutes of a constant +2 attack and damage with natural armor to boot.
If you go dex focused instead it doesn't affect your studied combat at all and you can grab an agiel weapon for the exact same effect.
For the record I'd never touch the longsword when a longspear will do just nicely.
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I like the changes to studied combat and studied strike.
With it lasting up to your int mod it has a very decent duration.
I like that it takes a move / swift to activate.
I think the bonus to hit is a little strong (1/2 your investigator level, right?)
I think the bonus to damage is just right (1/2 your investigator level, right?)
I think the studied strike precision dice is just right at 9d6 progression.
I love the ability to punctuate your studied strike with a sneak attack, that is a very flavorful way of trying to gauge when you think a foe is going to drop. It rewards those who pay attention and encourages the DM to add flavor to the description of combat - a good DM always details what you're doing in combat, but a DM playing with an investigator should maybe be allowing heal checks and such to get a more precise reading on how wounded an opponent looks, so the investigator knows that his time to activate his finisher is nigh.
I think this is a great alternative to sneak attack that doesn't steal the rogue's thunder. A rogue can still do more damage than an investigator, if he positions carefully, and particularly in long fights. Fights that drag on (flying / invisible opponents, villians) present additional difficulty for the investigator, and I think that's appropriate. He still has extracts to keep himself busy, and in those long fights I think he would be better served buffing the party for the first few rounds anyways, and then wading in once the BBEG has been debuffed or bloodied.
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I played Murder's Mark today with a PFS pregen. A level 1 investigator. I thought I should make some observations:
1- for an investigation adventure there wasn't a lot of places for an investigator to shine. Inspiration helps you succeed skill checks but doesn't help you draw conclusions or deduce answers. I think maybe a clause "At the GM's discretion a player bmay gain additional information or clues with a successful
skill check in conjunction with inspiration use."
2- I spent most of the module unconscious. 9 HP isn't great and 14 AC does not stand up well in melee. Every fight dropped me to 0 or below at some point. Combat Expertise is hardly a boost. If this class wants to go toe to toe in melee they need some defensive oomph.
3- Level 1 is EXPENSIVE, alchemist's lab, thieve's tools, medical kit, some alchemical items to be useful. I know all classes need to prioritise, but an ability where they can ignore the need for proper tools could be useful (maybe as part of inspiration)
4- level 1, there is nothing unique you can do in combat. More inspiration at level 1, or lowering cost for combat uses would be grand.
5- Spend 1 inspiration for +1d6 insight bonus to AC as immediate action might be cool.
Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?There is. I believe the argument is to get rid of that talent or modify it and to make that talent's inspiration cost for attack rolls the default.
Why don't we do this:
Inspired Strike(Ex): When the Investigator hits a target with a melee attack he may spend an inspiration point. If he does so, he adds 1d6 extra damage. This damage increases to 2d6 at 3rd level and adds another d6 every two levels after. If the investigator is attacking with a weapon he's proficient, he may also add his INT bonus.
This would make a damage source balanced with the alchemist's, and give the investigator better usefulness in combat.
Inspiration he mentioned.
Honestly, I don't think Poison Use should be factored into a PCs arsenal 99.99% of the time. Poison is either too expensive, too slow, or both for PC characters to make good use of. It's nice to have if you stumble across some leftover poison from an enemy and want a little extra boost on your weapon, but not something you can count on.
That said, I don't think the Investigator needs to be a superb archer, though the option would be nice. He needs combat capability for sure, but expecting the skill monkey to be as well rounded as the switch hitting Ranger in combat is a bit much.
Though if there's not a ranged capable Investigator archetype, I'd be very surprised, and somewhat disappointed.
Quite true.
A good solution would be an inspiration talent or feat that allowed a character to add their intelligence modifier to a poison DC on an injury poison, or perhaps a talent/feat that allowed a double application requiring two saving throws with one attack.
Either would increase the odds considerably.
Inspiration he mentioned.
Honestly, I don't think Poison Use should be factored into a PCs arsenal 99.99% of the time. Poison is either too expensive, too slow, or both for PC characters to make good use of. It's nice to have if you stumble across some leftover poison from an enemy and want a little extra boost on your weapon, but not something you can count on.
That said, I don't think the Investigator needs to be a superb archer, though the option would be nice. He needs combat capability for sure, but expecting the skill monkey to be as well rounded as the switch hitting Ranger in combat is a bit much.
Though if there's not a ranged capable Investigator archetype, I'd be very surprised, and somewhat disappointed.
Quite true.
A good solution would be an inspiration talent or feat that allowed a character to add their intelligence modifier to a poison DC on an injury poison, or perhaps a talent/feat that allowed a double application requiring two saving throws with one attack.
Either would increase the odds considerably.
Or add a line to the poison ability ability that says you also add your inspiration die to the save DC when you used inspiration to deliver a poisoned attack.
Or just have the ability to spend an inspiration point to add additional bonuses to the save DC otherwise (like forcing the enemy to roll twice and take the lower result).
Good point on using a reach weapon for some distance. So I crunched some numbers on two builds. First a Strength build using a Greatsword and Kirin Style and second a Dexterity build using a Scimitar and Dervish Dance. I built the characters out to level 9 and assumed, both characters took Power Attack and both buffed up before combat with only a Mutagen. Both builds have the Accelerated Drinker trait and walk around with their round one buff extract in hand.
Heads up, but accelerated drinker does nothing to extracts. It does work with potions you brew yourself though.
Alchemist: Does the Accelerated Drinker feat from Cheliax, Empire of Devils allow a character to drink an alchemist extract as a move action?
No.
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/08/10
Good point on using a reach weapon for some distance. So I crunched some numbers on two builds. First a Strength build using a Greatsword and Kirin Style and second a Dexterity build using a Scimitar and Dervish Dance. I built the characters out to level 9 and assumed, both characters took Power Attack and both buffed up before combat with only a Mutagen. Both builds have the Accelerated Drinker trait and walk around with their round one buff extract in hand.Heads up, but accelerated drinker does nothing to extracts. It does work with potions you brew yourself though.
but you can't brew potions yourself because you aren't a caster and you didn't get the feat with an extraordinary ability to let you use it as part of your class.
but you can't brew potions yourself because you aren't a caster and you didn't get the feat as part of your class.Good point on using a reach weapon for some distance. So I crunched some numbers on two builds. First a Strength build using a Greatsword and Kirin Style and second a Dexterity build using a Scimitar and Dervish Dance. I built the characters out to level 9 and assumed, both characters took Power Attack and both buffed up before combat with only a Mutagen. Both builds have the Accelerated Drinker trait and walk around with their round one buff extract in hand.Heads up, but accelerated drinker does nothing to extracts. It does work with potions you brew yourself though.
Was speaking for alchemist. Does investigator really not have access to brew potion? That probably needs fixed.
Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?There is. I believe the argument is to get rid of that talent or modify it and to make that talent's inspiration cost for attack rolls the default.Why don't we do this:
Inspired Strike(Ex): When the Investigator hits a target with a melee attack he may spend an inspiration point. If he does so, he adds 1d6 extra damage. This damage increases to 2d6 at 3rd level and adds another d6 every two levels after. If the investigator is attacking with a weapon he's proficient, he may also add his INT bonus.
This would make a damage source balanced with the alchemist's, and give the investigator better usefulness in combat.
I like that!
(I assume the INT bonus doesn't multiply on a crit) I'd like it even more if the extra damage was classified as an insight bonus.
The Dex build was able to afford a +4 Dex belt while the Str Build had to spend that cash on stronger AC items. This means that on the first round of combat the Dex build can drink his extract (Haste), move towards the enemy and activate Studied Combat. The Str build has to drink a Bull's Strength Extract instead, has to activate Studied Combat as a move action and then use Kirin Style as a swift action to.
On round 2 the Dex build got to make 3 attacks while the Str build makes only one solid attack. This is where the Dex build starts to jump ahead.
If we assume the Dex builds third attack always misses, then the builds do about the same damage. If you give the Dex build Arcane Strike then it comes a little ahead of the Strength build. If the third attack hits every other time, then the Dex build does about 25% more damage, or even more with Arcane Strike.
So with a higher crit chance weapon and better first round action economy, the Dex build edges out the Str build on damage when fighting solo. Now if you can get an ally to provide some of these buffs, freeing up your actions on that first round then things get better for a Strength build. The Strength build also has the option of...
"If we assume the Dex builds third attack always misses..." well clearly you've already assumed the STR build's second attack will always miss, so i see no reason not to do the same for the DEX build. also, if you give the DEX build arcane strike, why wouldn't you give the STR build another feat to add damage? it's like you're being intentionally misleading...
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Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?There is. I believe the argument is to get rid of that talent or modify it and to make that talent's inspiration cost for attack rolls the default.Why don't we do this:
Inspired Strike(Ex): When the Investigator hits a target with a melee attack he may spend an inspiration point. If he does so, he adds 1d6 extra damage. This damage increases to 2d6 at 3rd level and adds another d6 every two levels after. If the investigator is attacking with a weapon he's proficient, he may also add his INT bonus.
This would make a damage source balanced with the alchemist's, and give the investigator better usefulness in combat.
I like that!
(I assume the INT bonus doesn't multiply on a crit) I'd like it even more if the extra damage was classified as an insight bonus.
Its not actually that balanced. You'll burn inspiration like crazy and you probably won't be like the alchemist who gets it for free on every attack that qualifies. Not a big fan of putting a limit on a basic and necessary combat function either, especially not with a shared pool for your other abilities that are supposed to allow you to shine.
Its not actually that balanced. You'll burn inspiration like crazy and you probably won't be like the alchemist who gets it for free on every attack that qualifies. Not a big fan of putting a limit on a basic and necessary combat function either, especially not with a shared pool for your other abilities that are supposed to allow you to shine.Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?There is. I believe the argument is to get rid of that talent or modify it and to make that talent's inspiration cost for attack rolls the default.Why don't we do this:
Inspired Strike(Ex): When the Investigator hits a target with a melee attack he may spend an inspiration point. If he does so, he adds 1d6 extra damage. This damage increases to 2d6 at 3rd level and adds another d6 every two levels after. If the investigator is attacking with a weapon he's proficient, he may also add his INT bonus.
This would make a damage source balanced with the alchemist's, and give the investigator better usefulness in combat.
I like that!
(I assume the INT bonus doesn't multiply on a crit) I'd like it even more if the extra damage was classified as an insight bonus.
Also, lets just avoid any more classes that can nova at will during important encounters... this sort of burst attack might be cool for the slayer (who consequently has less sneak attack dice) but Studied Combat is already excellent right where it is.
It is worse than sneak attack overall, particularly when you consider things like Sap Master, Scout Archetype, and High initiative ranged rogues etc... But it fits the class very well, the accuracy bonus helps to deal with the MAD issues, and the static damage is very fair.
You have to remember that Studied Combat is not even remotely as conditional as sneak attack regardless of how many posters want to theorycraft by assuming that their character always has a flank partner. (see the slayer thread)
With all of the proposed revisions, I think that Studied Combat will be just about on par with the sneak attack that investigator had in the first draft. To me, that reads as excellent design.
I am still hoping to see a feat that allows ranged studied combat (I understand why it is not a base option) within 30ft... probably with Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite, but short of that, I think this class is 100% ready to print.
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i just think it's silly how investigators are forced into an awkward progression for talents and studied strike (because the parent class concept is hurting designs), but they can have the same alchemy as an alchemist (which i'd be fine with delaying in order to streamline the class and make it feel unique in AND out of combat from level 1)?