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2- I spent most of the module unconscious. 9 HP isn't great and 14 AC does not stand up well in melee. Every fight dropped me to 0 or below at some point. Combat Expertise is hardly a boost. If this class wants to go toe to toe in melee they need some defensive oomph.3- Level 1 is EXPENSIVE, alchemist's lab, thieve's tools, medical kit, some alchemical items to be useful. I know all classes need to prioritise, but an ability where they can ignore the need for proper tools could be useful (maybe as part of inspiration)
4- level 1, there is nothing unique you can do in combat. More inspiration at level 1, or lowering cost for combat uses would be grand.
5- Spend 1 inspiration for +1d6 insight bonus to AC as immediate action might be cool.
I feel your pain, i am in a PFS game where i changed my 1st level rogue to investigator, both games i was taken down every combat(so nothing changed) though with rogue my sneak helped take down foes faster then in last game. I did feel i was lacking in combat when playing the investigator, and have not even used any of my extracts yet, but i am using my thrown items i made with my Alchemy skills. It would be nice to be able to make these cheaper at lower level, which may help with the 1-3 lack of combat, but as they gain levels would rely less on them. I think that would give them some tricks in combat they could do that would be balanced.
Well now i am caught up with the 16 page thread, i will be interested to see if anything changes and what we do with our PFS PCs while we wait for the official book to come out.
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Some new suggestions for the class:
Talents:
Arcane dabbler(Su): The investigator chooses a number of formulas from his book equal to 1+ his INT bonus. These can be prepared and cast as spell using his infusion's slots. Every time he gets access to a new infusion level he may replace this spells with new ones.
Measure opponent(Ex): The investigator may understand his opponent's battle readiness. By making a Sense motive check (CD= 10+ target HD+ CHA mod.) the investigator knows the following: BaB, HD, Primary Class, Sneak Attack, and any wound. Additional information may be given at the GM discretion.
Restore proof (Su): The investigator may restore a damaged item even if it had written information. Burnt pages may be restored, faded scrolls and fabrics. The action requires an inspiration point to be spent and works like a Make Whole spell with a caster level equal to the Investigator's level except that it recovers lost information. Magic scrolls may be identified but the ability dos not recover spent magic, only materials and written information.
Anatomist strike(Ex): The investigator may spend an inspiration point when hitting a target. If he does so, the target must make a save against 10+1/2 investigator's level +INT mod. or suffer one of the following conditions: Shaken, stunned, dazed, flat footed. The same condition cannot be attempted at the same target within the same 24h.
Sleepless Investigation(Ex): The investigator requires half the normal time resting for his race. Also, he may spend an inspiration point to ignore the effects of sleep deprivation for 24h.
Mind Maze(Su): The investigator's mind is an intricate maze of thoughts. Anyone attempting to affect the investigator with a mind affecting spell must succeed on a will save (10+1/2 investigator's level+INT mod.)or the spell will fail and the target will be stunned for 1 round.
Eidettic perception(Ex): The investigator may spend an inspiration point to notice anything in a place he has visited. He makes a perception check as if he were there at the time of his visit.
Inspired survivor(Ex): The investigator may spend an inspiration point to avoid full damage from a devastating attack. If the investigator receives a critical hit or any form of precision damage he may spend an inspiration point to avoid the extra damage. If he does so, he can spend an immediate action to fake his death. He will appear dead, and to notice otherwise a heal check (CD 20+ his INT mod.) is required.
Profiler(Ex): If the investigator has previously talked or fought with a creature, he receives a +4 bonus to find clues made by that specific creature.
Defiant mind(Su): The investigator is immune to the shaken condition.
Mind over body(Ex): The investigator may spend an inspiration point to use his INT mod. on any one CON or INT check or based skill check.
Great Inspired survivor(Ex): The investigator ignores any secondary effect on a save he spends an inspiration point (like evasion).
Nerve pinch(Ex): The investigator can make a touch melee attack against a target putting him to sleep. If the attack hits, the target attempts a fortitude save (10+1/2 investigator's level+INT mod.) to avoid sleeping for 1 round/investigator's level. The investigator may spend an inspiration point to increase the duration by 30 minutes. This may be attempted once per 24h against the same target.
Fall of death(Ex): The investigator can angle his body to increase his chances of survival when falling. When rolling falling damage all "5s" and "6s" are considered "1s". Fly becomes a class skill.
Spell study(Su): The investigator can prepare and cast at will a number of cantrips from the sorcerer/wizard list equal to his INT mod. He also may activate spell completion items as if his infusions were spells.
Nemesis(Ex): The investigator spends 24h studying a single individual. After that, he may use inspiration without spending points against that Nemesis (including tracking, attacks and saves against his abilities) until it's dead or the investigator selects a new nemesis.
At 1st level, the investigator is really no worse off than a lot of other classes.
The real problem area that could use some ironing out is levels 2 and 3. By level 3 you are really lagging behind. At level 4, things get better. At level 5 you can grab quick study and things are pretty much fine from there on out.
I would like studied combat to move down to 2nd. Studied Strike would come at 3rd level then be only 1 die behind sneak attack and increase at 5, 7, 9 , 11 etc.
I understand that some think that the class is frontloaded.... but it isn't. When you really look at it, studied combat is not a dip-bait sort of ability. It is good if you stick with investigator, but even if you got it at 2rd, and could take quick study at 3rd... no one is going to do that. There are MUCH more potent 3 level dips.
A 2 level dip into investigator doesn't give you much more than that same dip into alchemist... so again, I don't see the problem. Heck, a 1 level dip into swashbuckler gives you derring-do, which is inspiration that refills itself AND parry/riposte. So why dip investigator?
So, yeah, I think moving studied combat down 2 levels would be very much warranted. Then the only troublesome level for combat is 1st, and we can all suffer through 1 lousy level.
so this may have come up already, but talents like Empathy, Hidden Agendas, and Tenacious Inspiration allow you to roll two dice when you use inspiration. Tenacious Inspiration specifies how it interacts with True Inspiration at 20 but not how it interacts with Empathy and Hidden Agendas, nor do those talents mention how they work with True Inspiration.
also, if the default action for studied strike is going to be a move action, can the Quick Study talent reduce it to a swift normally and a free with inspiration? i'd take a talent and spend inspiration to make the use of kirin style more efficient (there are probably other swift actions one can acquire that would also make this useful; i just haven't thought of them).
Wow. I am really, really disappointed that Studied Strike has replaced sneak attack on the investigator. There are no words.
Is that in light of all of the proposed changes to studied combat? Or just from a first read?
Because Studied combat is most likely changing to Int mod duration (Not 1/2 int mod) and +1/2 level to damage as well as +1/2 level to hit.
I would agree that as it was initially written it was pure trash...but I think it is in a good place now.
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I have done a lot of testing with a ton of builds, and I haven't had any serious problems with the Inquisitor at levels 1-3. The class winds up with similar stat allocations as a Magus, with the same options. You can go with a Strength build and contribute adequate to good damage for 3 levels or go with a Dex build where your damage will be reduced until level 3, but your defenses will be higher. From level 4 and on you have no problems.
Yes it could be a little better, and probably should be if this class was intended for a pure combat role. However, the core concept of the class is actually as a support role with a strong focus on out of combat utility. The fact that the class can perform adequately in combat while stealing the show outside of it makes this a pretty strong class in my opinion.
Could you post some of the builds here or elsewhere on the forums? I had no problem with builds until sneak attack was removed but since then I'm struggling as many others seem to be. Would love to see what you came up with. How are you getting decent damage from a dx build at level 3? Piranha strike?
Could you post some of the builds here or elsewhere on the forums? I had no problem with builds until sneak attack was removed but since then I'm struggling as many others seem to be. Would love to see what you came up with. How are you getting decent damage from a dx build at level 3? Piranha strike?I have done a lot of testing with a ton of builds, and I haven't had any serious problems with the Inquisitor at levels 1-3. The class winds up with similar stat allocations as a Magus, with the same options. You can go with a Strength build and contribute adequate to good damage for 3 levels or go with a Dex build where your damage will be reduced until level 3, but your defenses will be higher. From level 4 and on you have no problems.
Yes it could be a little better, and probably should be if this class was intended for a pure combat role. However, the core concept of the class is actually as a support role with a strong focus on out of combat utility. The fact that the class can perform adequately in combat while stealing the show outside of it makes this a pretty strong class in my opinion.
Dervish Dance most likely.
In any case I've seen 4 builds so far that are very viable with this with the proposed changes to studied combat/strike. I plan on working on an investigator guide shortly after RPGsuperstar.
I am slightly unhappy with the the way the investigator's combat abilities turn out. When i am thinking of a "smart fighter", i am not thinking high-STR enlarged mutagen-using power-attacking freak, but it seems that is the way to go. Other ways seem to be some combat styles (kirin, snake) but these force you to take improved unarmed strike or dip into monk or similar classes.
While i sort of understand why the devs don't want to give ranged combat a high to-hit and damage bonus which is essentially at will, i still would like something. Maybe something like:
studied combat/strike gives you x bonus to melee, or half of that to ranged.
The added ranged ability could also be rolled into a feat or an investigator talent.
Speaking of investigator talents, some of them seem tather weak or useless:
for example Intelligence Inspiration
An investigator can add his inspiration die to all Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft checks without expending uses of inspiration,
even those he’s not trained in.
Since i already get free rolls on this skills at level 1, this only helps on rolls in skills i have not spend points, and honestly by the time i hit level 3, i should have spend a point in every of these skills.
And this talent and Expanded Inspiration and Underworld Inspiration get effectivly superseded by the capstone ability.Hidden agendas seems to have an extremely narrow focus, but maybe i am missing something there
One last thing:
While i like the idea of Poison Lore, i am slightly confused about the neutralizing poison ability. Could i use that ability to neutralize a poison someone (maybe even myself) is suffering from at the moment, or could i neutralize a toxic cloud i am standing in or nearby? Some additional wording on what this ability can affect would be nice in the final product to avert endless rules questions and FAQ entries.
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Could you post some of the builds here or elsewhere on the forums? I had no problem with builds until sneak attack was removed but since then I'm struggling as many others seem to be. Would love to see what you came up with. How are you getting decent damage from a dx build at level 3? Piranha strike?Dervish Dance most likely.
In any case I've seen 4 builds so far that are very viable with this with the proposed changes to studied combat/strike. I plan on working on an investigator guide shortly after RPGsuperstar.
I have builds I like before 4th level and builds I like after 4th level. Not much overlap between the two though. But I am building as is and not incorporating any proposed changes other than the duration = int mod which is now official. I can come up with viable builds I like at low and high levels by dipping monk, fighter or brawler. The pure investigator builds i have come up with either struggle at low levels or fail to leverage studied combat later on.
Could you post some of the builds here or elsewhere on the forums? I had no problem with builds until sneak attack was removed but since then I'm struggling as many others seem to be. Would love to see what you came up with. How are you getting decent damage from a dx build at level 3? Piranha strike?I have done a lot of testing with a ton of builds, and I haven't had any serious problems with the Inquisitor at levels 1-3. The class winds up with similar stat allocations as a Magus, with the same options. You can go with a Strength build and contribute adequate to good damage for 3 levels or go with a Dex build where your damage will be reduced until level 3, but your defenses will be higher. From level 4 and on you have no problems.
Yes it could be a little better, and probably should be if this class was intended for a pure combat role. However, the core concept of the class is actually as a support role with a strong focus on out of combat utility. The fact that the class can perform adequately in combat while stealing the show outside of it makes this a pretty strong class in my opinion.
TWF Short Swords (Or Twin daggers with River Rat) and Piranha strike work quite well. By level 10 you are effectively cutting out all of the penalties for TWF and Piranha Strike with studied combat, and with 20 dex, river rat, +1 agile daggers, piranha strike and studied combat, you are hitting for 1d4+17 on each hit.
Combat Maneuvers are also an interesting option... you can get fairly decent bonuses... (right about on par with a fighter's full BAB weapon training and greater focus)
As for the early levels, here is a pretty reasonable build:
Half-Elf Investigator 1 (20pt)
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 13
Int: 16 (+2 race)
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
Feats:
Ancestral Weaponry: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Medium Armor Proficiency
Gear:
Thieves Tools
Alchemist Kit
Fauchard
A sling and 20 bullets
Armored Coat
Backpack
Rope
Magnifying glass
Lantern
Cool hat
A steady supply of cigarettes
You know... paper, pens... a set of vinyl letters to put on a glass door.
SKILLS:
Knowledge Arcana +7
Knowledge Religion +7
Knowledge Nature +7
Knowledge Planes +7
Spellcraft +7
Perception +4
Disable Device +7
Stealth +7
Sense Motive +4
Diplomacy +4
INSPIRATION 3/day
EXTRACTS:
Formulas Known (Comprehend Languages, Cure Light Wounds, Shield, Enlarge Person, Touch of the Sea)
Extracts Made:
1x Cure Light Wounds
1x Enlarge Person
DEFENSES:
HP: 10
AC: 15 (10, +4 armor, +1 dex)
Fort: +1 Ref: +5 Will: +2
OFFENSES:
Full Attack: +3, 1d10+4 (18-20/x2)(+0 bab, +3 str)
I think that much like the rogue, a lot of people are falling into the Dexterity trap. Really, going for a decent strength and using a two-hander is the easiest way to go. You don't lose much for medium armor, and its just one feat to use... it helps solve some of the AC issues. By level 7 or so, you should be able to grab a decent breastplate.
So this build is attacking at +3 for 9.5 average damage (18-20/x2 crit). Enlarged you will be hitting for 2d8+6 (15 average)
At 3rd level, grab power attack, and you can use enlarge person in nearly every fight (4/day if you like). The advantage there is that you will then have 15ft reach, which is very handy. With power attack online, and enlarged, you will be hitting for 2d8+9 (18 average). Which, I think is respectable.
If you also take mutagen as your discovery at this level, you can be jumping that up to 2d8+12, which again, is pretty good for level 3.
Comparatively, a fighter with the same weapon, and an 18 strength with power attack will be hitting for 1d10+9 at level 1, 2, and 3.
Obviously their attack bonus is better, but you are still contributing to combat in a meaningful way while also having inspiration and more skills. By level 5, things really come together when you take quick study.
Then lets take a very brief look at level 12
Going to just do some brief stuff here.. major bullet points for offensive output.
By now, you should have pumped con once (at 4th) and strength twice (up to an 18).
Notable offensive items: Belt of Physical Perfection +2, +2 Impact Fauchard
Feats:
1 - Medium Armor Proficiency
3 - Power Attack
5 - Furious Focus
7 - Weapon Focus (Fauchard)
9 - Vital Strike
11 - Improved Critical (Fauchard)
So, your strength is a 20.
BAB - +9
Attack bonus +23 (+9 bab, +5 str, +2 weapon, +1 focus, +6 studied combat)
Every combat, you are going to use enlarge person... its readily available now, so just go for it. You can also supplement with monstrous physique for better buffs, but we will just use enlarge for now.
So, Enlarged Vital Strike: +23 6d8+26 (15-20/x2) {53 avg}
(+9 str, +9 power attack, +2 weapon, +6 studied combat)
Not a bad attack. Full attacks are also fully on the table depending on what is going on... but this method frees you up a bit to move where needed.
I think that much like the rogue, a lot of people are falling into the Dexterity trap.
if DEX is a trap, there is a fundamental design flaw somewhere...
Much like with the Rogue, the issue is that thematically a Sherlock Holmes expy lugging around a huge ass Greatsword as his weapon is...ick.
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Level 4 is way too long to wait for studied combat/strike. Please lower the levels these become available, it would be fine to delay their progression to once every 3 or 4 levels then but please do not make us wait that long. I do not see anyone wanting to play this unless they care nothing for combat effectiveness or they are getting 4 levels of xp for free and begin the campaign at least at level 4. Others will wait till level five so they can study as a move action.
Do you honestly ever expect someone not to take the move action study at 5th level? Either from the talent or multi class so they get study at 5 character(not class) level and immediately take extra talent. This class feature should be a move. How about instead giving a talent/feat that let's you increase the time(action) to get a better or longer bonus. That would be a great option, not a tax.
I do not care about bombs but play several Alchemists in PFS because I love several of the good discoveries in UM and the 2/3 brewer progression. Investigators get none of the good discoveries(just like the base alhemists with nothing good in the APG). This combined way too late access to studied combat/strike makes them too far below my radar to even consider using without those free 5 levels of x
I think this is strictly better than a rogue(despite gripes) since they have the trap finding feature to fin magical ones, not just mechanical ones. The rate they eventually get studied arts is about as combat effective(better to consistently hit with bonus damage than TWF, and miss a bunch of times). With 2/3s brewer progression, why would anyone ever want to play a rogue again. Or in other words, maybe their is no bright side unless you want the rogue( obsoleted(unless rogues get options for brewer progression).
I would still rather play a 3.5 cutting room floor web enhancement Psionic rogue(not just for flavor reasons) with both sneak attack and Psionic powers early than an investigator with mostly poor talents(though I did love fast aid another) and way too delayed studied arts.
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The time is being dropped to a Move action (with a Talent for Swift) most likely anyway.
Also:
Or in other words, maybe there is no bright side unless you want the rogue obsoleted.
Assuming he isn't already...yes, yes I do.
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Could you post some of the builds here or elsewhere on the forums? I had no problem with builds until sneak attack was removed but since then I'm struggling as many others seem to be. Would love to see what you came up with. How are you getting decent damage from a dx build at level 3? Piranha strike?I have done a lot of testing with a ton of builds, and I haven't had any serious problems with the Inquisitor at levels 1-3. The class winds up with similar stat allocations as a Magus, with the same options. You can go with a Strength build and contribute adequate to good damage for 3 levels or go with a Dex build where your damage will be reduced until level 3, but your defenses will be higher. From level 4 and on you have no problems.
Yes it could be a little better, and probably should be if this class was intended for a pure combat role. However, the core concept of the class is actually as a support role with a strong focus on out of combat utility. The fact that the class can perform adequately in combat while stealing the show outside of it makes this a pretty strong class in my opinion.
TWF Short Swords (Or Twin daggers with River Rat) and Piranha strike work quite well. By level 10 you are effectively cutting out all of the penalties for TWF and Piranha Strike with studied combat, and with 20 dex, river rat, +1 agile daggers, piranha strike and studied combat, you are hitting for 1d4+17 on each hit.
Combat Maneuvers are also an interesting option... you can get fairly decent bonuses... (right about on par with a fighter's full BAB weapon training and greater focus)
As for the early levels, here is a pretty reasonable build:
** spoiler omitted **...
*sighs* Call me a slave to style, but the thought of having to turn the intelligence based character who's supposed to be "nimble enough of both body and mind" into another clunky, enlarged two-handed weapon fighter makes me cringe.
Please don't take it the wrong way. I appreciate your suggestion for being mechanically sound. But thematically? It's painful to see time and again that the only solution at present is to turn Sherlock into Gonad The Barbarian.
[edit] ninja'd by Rynjin but the sentiment stands.
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Sorry, forgot to add, thank you for making quick study a talent or feat option via extra talent rather than strictly a talent or strictly a feat option. I do like the option there. I still think the base ability should be a move with a feat/talent to.make it a swift and or an option to extend to a standard/full for a better and/or longer boost.
After thinking about this some, I'd love to see Studied Combat become alike to a non-magical version of the Inquisitor's Judgment ability.
It would be cool if an Investigator could study his opponent or an entire battlefield and then use the information to gain different, appropriate bonuses against the targets present.
Some of the progression:
+1 insight bonus attack roll per 5 levels
+1 insight bonus damage roll per 3 levels
+1 insight bonus Dodge AC per 5 levels
+1 bonus to saves versus targets spells per 5 levels
That would make it more versatile and effective against different targets. It would do a great job of simulating a high level intellect like Sherlock Holmes figuring out the best way to win a fight.
The Inquisitor Judgment mechanic is a great mechanic. A non-magical version of that ability really fits the Investigator conceptually. It especially fits the new Guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes played by Robert Downey Jr. The entire way he will map out a combat in his mind and then execute it.
Studied Combat working like the Inquisitor Judgment mechanic would simulate a fight of that kind very well. The Investigator studies the layout of the fight and gains bonuses as it plays out using his incredible intellect to gain advantages.
so i asked JJ about this because it's really more about how Kirin Style seems to need a minor tweak than about the Investigator, but since this style is so appealing for this class and since JJ told me i should bring it up here, i'll share this thought again.
James,
Something just occurred to me while trying to come up with an Investigator build. Activating a style is a swift action, Kirin Style requires a swift action Knowledge check to gain any benefits from the style, and Kirin Strike requires it's own swift action to add the damage. Is this really suppose to require three separate swift actions (one to activate your style, one to make the knowledge check, and one to finally add the damage)? It seems a bit much...
I've not yet looked at the investigator at all, nor am I really all that involved in the playtest and processing its feedback. This is the exact kind of comment you absolutely should post in the investigator's feedback thread, since finding weird or unexpected interactions with existing rules is one of the main reasons why we do public playtests in the first place. The designers don't read this thread really, though, so any feedback you post here won't be seen by them.
Whether or not it is really supposed to require three separate swift actions is something they should be asked, not me... but I agree that seems a bit much, since you can only do 1 swift a round...
i also quoted JJ telling me to say it here because he seems to be in agreement that Kirin Style is a bit heavy on the swift actions.
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so i asked JJ about this because it's really more about how Kirin Style seems to need a minor tweak than about the Investigator, but since this style is so appealing for this class and since JJ told me i should bring it up here, i'll share this thought again.
i also quoted JJ telling me to say it here because he seems to be in agreement that Kirin Style is a bit heavy on the swift actions.James,
Something just occurred to me while trying to come up with an Investigator build. Activating a style is a swift action, Kirin Style requires a swift action Knowledge check to gain any benefits from the style, and Kirin Strike requires it's own swift action to add the damage. Is this really suppose to require three separate swift actions (one to activate your style, one to make the knowledge check, and one to finally add the damage)? It seems a bit much...
I've not yet looked at the investigator at all, nor am I really all that involved in the playtest and processing its feedback. This is the exact kind of comment you absolutely should post in the investigator's feedback thread, since finding weird or unexpected interactions with existing rules is one of the main reasons why we do public playtests in the first place. The designers don't read this thread really, though, so any feedback you post here won't be seen by them.
Whether or not it is really supposed to require three separate swift actions is something they should be asked, not me... but I agree that seems a bit much, since you can only do 1 swift a round...
Yeah, three swift actions for Kirin Style plus a Standard/Move/Swift for Studied Combat. If you wanted to build an Investigator with the Style feats that make the most sense for the class, you need to slog through a three to four round activation.
For crying out loud, there aren't that many powerful high level Wizard spells that take that long to activate!
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Investigator should gain low spells (like ranger), instead of medium (like a alchemist).
Give them back sneak attack (why complicate things).
about the spell progression, i agree, but most people (here at least) are in agreement that replacing sneak attack with a unique mechanic was the way to go. if the investigator had a paladin/ranger spell progression, we could even have that unique combat mechanic at 1 and feel like a new class rather than an alchemist with a minor bonus to some checks instead of bombs.
about the spell progression, i agree, but most people (here at least) are in agreement that replacing sneak attack with a unique mechanic was the way to go. if the investigator had a paladin/ranger spell progression, we could even have that unique combat mechanic at 1 and feel like a new class rather than an alchemist with a minor bonus to some checks instead of bombs.Investigator should gain low spells (like ranger), instead of medium (like a alchemist).
Give them back sneak attack (why complicate things).
Not sure about the spell progression gig, but I will say I would prefer a simple mechanic to a complicated one. That's one of the things that bites me the most about switching from sneak attack to study.
it's really not that complicated...
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Ahh Investigator, you tried to appease the people who like the Rouge by making Investigator damn near useless.
Please Paizo, just start the Rouge over and let the Investigator have sneak attack like he did before, or at the very least let Studied Combat a swift action that lasts longer then one usage. Or get rid of the whole 24 hour requirement.
Please, please, fix studied combat.
Also can you fix the Rouge? Why do all of the Rouge archetypes remove the one good reason for a PC to play Rouge (disable traps)? Yes I know Rouges can do far more then just disable traps, but they really are one of few classes that can disable magical traps, which is why I see all of the Rouge archetypes as NPC classes.
No worries about spells vs alchemy, an investigator AT with spells instead of alchemy seems like the first thing they should do. If not Pazio, someone else will.
Also can you fix the Rouge? Why do all of the Rouge archetypes remove the one good reason for a PC to play Rouge (disable traps)? Yes I know Rouges can do far more then just disable traps, but they really are one of few classes that can disable magical traps, which is why I see all of the Rouge archetypes as NPC classes.
My impression is that many rogue players enjoy being the trap specialist about as much as some clerics enjoy being the buffbot. At least that's how things are here. Those ATs are for these players. Pazio makes the slayer and investigator to give these people more to choose from. I guess the investigator is for those rogue players who did like trapfinding but not sneak attack, while slayer is the opposite.
But yeah, they should fix the rogue before making combination classes based on it.
*Insert makeup related joke*
Rouge is just fine. Makes you look lovely~.(I love those joke though!)
No worries about spells vs alchemy, an investigator AT with spells instead of alchemy seems like the first thing they should do. If not Pazio, someone else will.
was this a thing we were talking about? i remember we were talking about the progression of the investigators alchemy, and i used the term "spell progression" for the sake of simplicity... or did i miss something else?
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I don't feel I have nearly as much concise insight to offer as many of these posts, hoping my relatively novice opinion might count for something more akin to the casual gamer's experience?
I love the class for a campaign. for PFS I felt pretty much useless. I ran an investigator (based on poirot) for "the confirmation" - and while I carried the party through all the knowledge checks, I was practically useless in other aspects. I built a very social/skill heavy class, which doesn't translate well to PFS (and I understood that going in). for a long term campaign setting, I think this class could be invaluable.
I did notice by level 4, I'd start to contribute a bit to combat with the studied strikes, but I still feel I'd be lagging behind other 3/4 BAB characters. not having bombs hurts damage output considerably, and the one-off nature of studied strike doesn't help either, especially when it comes so late in character progression.
I understand the inclusion of poison use, but I agree with the common sentiment that it felt forced. I would be all for the resistances and knowledge boosts to identify, but use in and of itself seems a bit inorganic. also, it's completely useless for PFS.
I would love to see the poison use dropped, the studied strike available sooner (or available the whole INT mod regardless of # of strikes), and maybe a bit more by way of casting or inspiration to make up for the lack of offensive output?
*sighs* Call me a slave to style, but the thought of having to turn the intelligence based character who's supposed to be "nimble enough of both body and mind" into another clunky, enlarged two-handed weapon fighter makes me cringe.
Please don't take it the wrong way. I appreciate your suggestion for being mechanically sound. But thematically? It's painful to see time and again that the only solution at present is to turn Sherlock into Gonad The Barbarian.
Hey, I hear ya, but that is just how the game is designed. Its not that dex is a trap for investigators.... its that its a trap for every melee class.
With two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, piranha strike, and agile weapons you can sort of catch up to a two-hander build. But only on full-attacks, so the big burly guy is technically more mobile (better at making a single attack, particularly with vital strike and the investigator's easy access to enlarge) Aaaand you just spent 2 feats on TWF and an enhancement bonus on Agile that the Two-Handed build doesn't have to bother with.
If you are limited to core only, then dex is even harder to pull off for melee... and its particularly awful at low level, when you are likely to be hitting for very low damage. The real trap is that even with full feat investment, TWF is not better than using a two-hander.
This is particularly true for a class that doesn't get bonus feats and has a 3/4 bab (and therefore can't get the nice feats like two-weapon rend or greater TWF until level 15). Quite a few rogue threads have shown the math on this, and it is thematically crappy, but it is just how Pathfinder works. This is why a dex-to-damage feat as a core option is being asked for in the swashbuckler thread... because without it, strength is still king, and we would all like to be able to build toward theme without junking mechanics.
BUT, if I use those non-core (but PFS legal) options of piranha strike and agile weapons, we can maybe put something together.
Human Investigator 12 (20pt)
Traits: Fencer, Resilient
Str: 14 (+2 belt)
Dex: 20 (+2 levels, +2 belt)
Con: 16 (+1 level, +2 belt)
Int: 18 (+2 race, +2 headband)
Wis: 12 (+2 headband)
Cha: 12 (+2 headband)
Feats/Inspiration Talents:
H. Weapon Finesse
1. Combat Expertise
3. Weapon Focus (rapier), Intelligence Inspiration
5. Improved Trip, Quick Study
7. Shield Proficiency (often overlooked), Mutagen Discovery
9. Power Attack, Intelligence Inspiration
11. Greater Trip, Tenacious Inspiration
Gear:
+2 Agile Cold Iron rapier
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 Mithral Light Steel Shield
+2 belt of physical perfection
+2 headband of mental superiority
Vest of stable mutation
Featherstep Boots
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Trip)
Cloak of resistance +3
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Other stuff... bag of holding, masterwork thieves tools, rope of climbing, etc etc.
SKILLS:
Knowledge Arcana +18
Knowledge Religion +18
Knowledge Nature +18
Knowledge Planes +18
Spellcraft +18
Perception +16
Disable Device +19
Stealth +19
Sense Motive +16
Diplomacy +15
Acrobatics +19
INSPIRATION 10/day (2d6 pick highest)
EXTRACTS (Leaving 1 open at each level to be made on the fly)
1st - 6, 2nd - 6, 3rd - 5, 4th - 4
1 - Cure Light Wounds x2, Ant Haul, Shield x2
2 - Cure Moderate, See Invisibility, Barkskin x2, Resist Energy
3 - Haste x2, Displacement, Heroism
4 - Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin
DEFENSES:
HP: 105
AC: 30 (10, +7 armor, +5 dex, +2 ring, +2 amulet, +4 shield)
Fort: +12 Ref: +16 Will: +13
OFFENSES:
Attack Bonus: +20/+15 (+9 BAB, +5 dex, +6 studied combat, +2 weapon, +1 focus, -3 Power Attack)
Damage: 1d6+19 (+5 dex, +2 weapon, +6 studied combat, +6 power attack)
Trip CMB: +26 (+9 BAB, +5 dex, +2 weapon, +1 focus, +4 feats, +2 gauntlets, +6 studied combat, -3 power attack)
Full Attack Sequence:
Against most humanoid targets, it is probably worthwhile to make a trip attempt. You can always use inspiration to pump this up a bit higher (or not power attack) So your best trip is at +29+(2d6 pick highest) before extracts.
Average CR 12 AC is 28, average CMD vs. Trip is about 38. Now keeping in mind that these are monsters that should be challenging all on their own, this provides a bit of a worst case scenario for most builds in terms of accuracy and the viability of maneuvers..... which is why I use them. If you can cut it here, in a tough fight, then you should be fine with anything easier.
Full Attack DPR: 25.88
pretty terrible.
But lets add an extract
Haste Full Attack DPR: 45.31
getting better.
Studied Strike shouldn't be ignored either. Its 5d6 (17.5 avg) on a single attack. And that means that it is worth doing pretty regularly, especially in fights where you can switch to a different target if it doesn't die.
So that didn't go to well. Lets try something a little different. How about a more balanced build... strength based, but not using a two-hander.
Human Investigator 12 (20pt)
Traits: SOmething, Resilient
Str: (13)18 (+2 belt, +3 levels)
Dex: (15)17 (+2 belt)
Con: (12)14 (+2 belt)
Int: (16)18 (+2 race, +2 headband)
Wis: (10)12 (+2 headband)
Cha: ( 8)10 (+2 headband)
Feats/Inspiration Talents:
H. Two-Weapon Fighting
1. Double Slice
3. Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff), Intelligence Inspiration
5. Great Fortitude, Quick Study
7. Quarterstaff Master, Mutagen Discovery
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Intelligence Inspiration
11. Weapon Specialization Quarterstaff, Tenacious Inspiration
Gear:
+3/+3 Quarterstaff
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
+2 belt of physical perfection
+2 headband of mental superiority
Vest of stable mutation
Featherstep Boots
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Trip)
Cloak of resistance +3
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Other stuff... bag of holding, masterwork thieves tools, rope of climbing, etc etc.
SKILLS:
Knowledge Arcana +18
Knowledge Religion +18
Knowledge Nature +18
Knowledge Planes +18
Spellcraft +18
Perception +16
Disable Device +19
Stealth +19
Sense Motive +16
Diplomacy +15
Acrobatics +19
INSPIRATION 10/day (2d6 pick highest)
EXTRACTS (Leaving 1 open at each level to be made on the fly)
1st - 6, 2nd - 6, 3rd - 5, 4th - 4
1 - Cure Light Wounds x2, Ant Haul, Shield x2
2 - Cure Moderate, See Invisibility, Barkskin x2, Resist Energy
3 - Haste x2, Displacement, Heroism
4 - Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin
DEFENSES:
HP: 105
AC: 24 (10, +7 armor, +3 dex, +2 ring, +2 amulet)
Fort: +10 Ref: +14 Will: +12
OFFENSES:
Attack Bonus: +21/+21/+16/+16 (+9 BAB, +4 str, +6 studied combat, +3 weapon, +1 focus, -2 TWF)
Damage: 1d6+15 (+4 str, +3 weapon, +6 studied combat, +2 weapon spec)
So, full attack DPR vs. 28 AC .7 .7 .45 .45 (2.7) 20.5
DPR = 43.88
Already doing better here without power attack or anything.
So lets add an extract.
Hasted DPR: 61.96
Now we are getting somewhere... this is actually not bad for a secondary combatant.
Now lets add in some other buffs to see where we can push things to. This would obviously requier some setup, but I don't want to just dump resources all over the place. So lets drop Haste, Enlarge Person, and a Mutagen at the same time to see where we end up. Enlarge and Mutagen both last for minutes rather than rounds, so this is not an unreasonable combination to see in use.
So, as a preamble. Hasted, Enlarged, Mutagen (Str) Full attack bonuses are: +24/+24/+24/+19/+19 for 1d8+18 3.75
So, DPR: 87.17
Again, not too bad here. And the overall build is balanced... its not weak and fully dex focused or anything, but it's not just a big burly brute either.
Next lets go ahead and make a martial artist Investigator. Usually this is a really bad plan, but lets give it a shot anyway. I think that studied combat might make grappling a real possibility. The average CMD of CR 12 monsters is around 38, so its a big hill to climb, but we will see how it goes. Agile maneuvers is a useless option here since you lose dex for grappling, but this build could be seen as a sort of stylized Judo taking down criminals with hand-to-hand and chokeholds.
Human Investigator 12 (20pt)
Traits: SOmething, Resilient
Str: (15)20 (+2 belt, +3 levels)
Dex: (13)13
Con: (12)12
Int: (16)18 (+2 race, +2 headband)
Wis: (10)12 (+2 headband)
Cha: ( 8)10 (+2 headband)
Feats/Inspiration Talents:
H. Improved Unarmed Strike
1. Improved Grapple
3. Weapon Focus (Grapple), Intelligence Inspiration
5. Power Attack, Quick Study
7. Defensive Combat Training, Mutagen Discovery
9. Greater Grapple, Intelligence Inspiration
11. Toughness, Tenacious Inspiration
Gear:
+3 Brass Knuckles
+2 Brawling Mithral Chain Shirt
+2 Anaconda's Coil
+2 headband of mental superiority
Vest of stable mutation
Earthroot Boots
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Grapple)
Cloak of resistance +3
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Trenchcoat of Infinite Twine
Other stuff... bag of holding, masterwork thieves tools, rope of climbing, etc etc.
SKILLS:
Knowledge Arcana +18
Knowledge Religion +18
Knowledge Nature +18
Knowledge Planes +18
Spellcraft +18
Perception +16
Disable Device +19
Stealth +19
Sense Motive +16
Diplomacy +15
Acrobatics +19
INSPIRATION 10/day (2d6 pick highest)
EXTRACTS (Leaving 1 open at each level to be made on the fly)
1st - 6, 2nd - 6, 3rd - 5, 4th - 4
1 - Cure Light Wounds x2, Ant Haul, Shield x2
2 - Cure Moderate, See Invisibility, Barkskin x2, Resist Energy
3 - Resinous Skin x2, Displacement, Heroism
4 - Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin
DEFENSES:
HP: 105
AC: 22 (10, +7 armor, +1 dex, +2 ring, +2 amulet)
Fort: +10 Ref: +14 Will: +12
OFFENSES:
Attack Bonus: +22/+17 (+9 BAB, +5 str, +6 studied combat, +3 weapon, +2 armor, -3 power attack)
Damage: 1d3+22 (+5 str, +3 weapon, +6 studied combat, +6 power attack, +2 armor)
GRAPPLING:
You are going to make liberal use of Resinous Skin (lasts 2 hours at this level) so that will be factored in here.
Grapple CMB: +33 (+9 BAB, +5 str, +6 studied combat, +2 armor, +2 belt, +2 gauntlets, +4 grapple feats, +1 focus, +2 resinous skin)
Escape CMD: 32 (10, +12 HD, +5 str, -1 dex(due to grappled condition), +2 imp grapple, +2 ring, +2 resinous skin)
Constrict (1d6+5)
Average CR 12 CMD = 38. Odds of a successful grapple are pretty good.
If you can grapple something, you use your Trenchcoat (Robe) of infinite twine to tie them up. Full round deals only constrict damage, but pins your opponent with a 32 escape CMD. Add in a strength mutagen, enlarge person, or a polymorph with the grab ability, and you will have an even better shot. If you are still humanoid, you can tie up your target and drag them off to jail.
So there is another useable build. Again, not great, but useable. Now just to be thorough, here is the standard two-hander build that you will end up seeing a lot of investigators use. Because the pathfinder system rewards it far more than any of these other concepts.
Half Elf Investigator 12 (20pt)
Traits: Failed Apprentice, Resilient
Str: (16)23 (+2 race, +2 belt, +3 levels)
Dex: (12)14 (+2 belt)
Con: (14)16 (+2 belt)
Int: (14)18 (+4 headband)
Wis: (10)12
Cha: ( 8)10
Feats/Inspiration Talents:
Ancestral Weapon. Fauchard
1. Medium Armor Proficiency
3. Power Attack, Intelligence Inspiration
5. Weapon Focus (Fauchard), Quick Study
7. Furious Focus, Mutagen Discovery
9. Vital Strike, Intelligence Inspiration
11. Improved Critical (Fauchard), Tenacious Inspiration
Gear:
+2 Impact Fauchard
+3 Mithral Breast Plate
+2 belt of physical perfection
+4 headband of vast intelligence
Vest of stable mutation
Featherstep Boots
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Trip)
Cloak of resistance +3
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Other stuff... bag of holding, masterwork thieves tools, rope of climbing, etc etc.
SKILLS:
Knowledge Arcana +18
Knowledge Religion +18
Knowledge Nature +18
Knowledge Planes +18
Spellcraft +18
Perception +16
Disable Device +19
Stealth +19
Sense Motive +16
Diplomacy +15
Acrobatics +19
INSPIRATION 10/day (2d6 pick highest)
EXTRACTS (Leaving 1 open at each level to be made on the fly)
1st - 6, 2nd - 6, 3rd - 5, 4th - 4
1 - Cure Light Wounds x2, Enlarge Person x2, Shield
2 - Cure Moderate, See Invisibility, Barkskin x2, Resist Energy
3 - Haste x2, Displacement, Heroism
4 - Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin
DEFENSES:
HP: 105
AC: 25 (10, +9 armor, +2 dex, +2 ring, +2 amulet)
Fort: +11 Ref: +13 Will: +12
OFFENSES:
Attack Bonus: +24 (+9 BAB, +6 str, +6 studied combat, +2 weapon, +1 focus)
Damage: 2d8+26 (+9 str, +9 power attack, +6 studied combat, +2 weapon)
So, With furious focus and vital strike, an attack after moving is:
Fauchard +24 (15-20/x2) 4d8+26
Full Attack: +24/+16 2d8+26 (15-20/x2)
Vital Strike DPR: 44.8
Full Attack DPR: 56.81
Add in haste or enlarge and things obviously get much better. The great advantage of a reach weapon and enlarge is that 15 ft reach means you can avoid a lot of full-attacks. Its very hard to look at the investigator without buffs... since that is a big part of the class. SO lets do that.
Enlarge Person +24/+16 3d8+27, -2 AC
DPR: 64.08
Haste +25/+22/+17 2d8+26 +1 AC/Reflex
DPR: 92
and of course you can stack a mutagen onto either of those, or put them together. But 92 DPR with 1 buff is pretty respectable.
So... there are a few builds. Its not that dex is unplayable by any means... its just worse.
I think that much like the rogue, a lot of people are falling into the Dexterity trap.if DEX is a trap, there is a fundamental design flaw somewhere...
With agile weapons, dex is a god stat already. It is just bad at low levels.
Here is an idea that me and some friends were kicking about.
In addition to the standard studied strike. You could do something like instead of dealing xd6 you have some other effect. So if you have 3d6 sneak attack dice you could do 1d6+ attempt to stagger the monster.
For example:
dc: 10+1/2 inv level+Int
all effects last Int rounds
2d6 Staggered
4d6 Dazed
6d6 Stunned
8d6 Paralyzed
And it can be supplemented/modified with archtypes and feats, such as a feat that gives you a +2 bonus to the dc. Or make the DC and Rounds based off of Str or Dex instead of Int.
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*sighs* Call me a slave to style, but the thought of having to turn the intelligence based character who's supposed to be "nimble enough of both body and mind" into another clunky, enlarged two-handed weapon fighter makes me cringe.
Please don't take it the wrong way. I appreciate your suggestion for being mechanically sound. But thematically? It's painful to see time and again that the only solution at present is to turn Sherlock into Gonad The Barbarian.
Hey, I hear ya, but that is just how the game is designed. Its not that dex is a trap for investigators.... its that its a trap for every melee class.
With two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, piranha strike, and agile weapons you can sort of catch up to a two-hander build. But only on full-attacks, so the big burly guy is technically more mobile (better at making a single attack, particularly with vital strike and the investigator's easy access to enlarge) Aaaand you just spent 2 feats on TWF and an enhancement bonus on Agile that the Two-Handed build doesn't have to bother with.
If you are limited to core only, then dex is even harder to pull off for melee... and its particularly awful at low level, when you are likely to be hitting for very low damage. The real trap is that even with full feat investment, TWF is not better than using a two-hander.
This is particularly true for a class that doesn't get bonus feats and has a 3/4 bab (and therefore can't get the nice feats like two-weapon rend or greater TWF until level 15). Quite a few rogue threads have shown the math on this, and it is thematically crappy, but it is just how Pathfinder works. This is why a dex-to-damage feat as a core option is being asked for in the swashbuckler thread... because without it, strength is still king, and we would all like to be able to build toward theme without junking mechanics.
BUT, if I use those non-core (but PFS legal) options of piranha strike and agile weapons, we can maybe put something together....
Meanwhile the Dextrous Investigator, you offer, is getting hit less often.
Dexterity is not a trap. Dexterity done right means you get hit less. Sure you do less damage. But by not getting hit you survive longer to do damage.
AC has diminishing returns though. Also happens to be used for initiative. Of course neutralizing a threat also means that you don't have to worry about them hitting you anymore.
Dexterity Investigator
Staff Investigator
Martial Artist Investigator
Heavy InvestigatorMeanwhile the Dextrous Investigator, you offer, is getting hit less often.
Dexterity is not a trap. Dexterity done right means you get hit less. Sure you do less damage. But by not getting hit you survive longer to do damage.
Lord_Malkov, something to note is that all of your builds were level 12. At level 12, the average High Attack and Low Attack from CR 9 to CR 15 threats is 21/15
Dexterity has an AC of 30
Staff has an AC of 24
Martial Artist has an AC of 22
Heavy has an AC of 25
The average HP for the CR 9 - CR 15 range is 164 with a low of 115 and a high of 220. Out of the above builds, only the Heavy investigator could probably drop something in a single round. Meanwhile, they are getting full attacked in return.
The Martial Artist is screwed when it comes to melee, just about everything is going to hit him pretty easily. The High attack misses only on a 1, while the low attack needs a 7 to hit.
The Staff is hit by the High attack on a 3 and hit by a low attack on a 9.
Heavy is hit by the high attack on a 4 and hit by the low attack on a 10.
Dexterity is hit by the high attack on a 9, and hit by the low attack on a 15. This is the only guy who is likely to withstand more than a couple rounds of combat at this range. Sure, he may not be dropping a monster in two rounds, but he's not being dropped in 2 rounds either.
Mr. Dexterity also has the best saves (in all categories) of the 4 builds you listed. With him having higher AC (meaning he gets hit less) and better saves, he is less likely to be brought down from any of the riders on the hits the other guys will fall too.
I know you're participating in the Swashbuckler thread, so you're aware of how much saves can influence a game. Out of all the builds you posted, I, personally, would take the Dexterity guy.
I understand the party and/or the Investigator could apply various buffs to increase AC and Saves etc. but any of those buffs can also apply to the Dexterity Investigator. It would probably be easier to boost Mr. Dex's DPR, than to boost the other 3's saves and AC to survivable levels.
I should mention, that Heavy would be my next pick. He's got the next highest survivability, due more to his DPR, than his defenses, which are the next highest out of the four.
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That's not a bad idea. I pick a target, and for a short duration I get a bonus to hit and damage, with a nice bit hit at the end. That's pretty cool. I'm more than happy with that. The only problem is, you're still useless in combat during levels 1-3. In an AP, that's not too bad, because you're useful elsewhere and it's only one adventure. During Pathfinder Society, however, that's nine adventures.
Yea, my thoughts exacttly.