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Hey Stephen,
Thanks for the updates in regards to Studied Combat/Strike, and the insightful analysis as to why you want to avoid tying Knowledge rolls to combat.
And because of that, I tend to stray away from (and by "stray away from" I mean freaking avoid) the grand variance ball that is the d20 for determining such things such as the bonuses to accuracy and damage you get during combat. It comes into play at just the right spot when you make an attack roll.Very wise words that.
If nothing else, I'm very happy to have a well written reference post to refer to people for why it's not a great idea, despite actually being pretty popular :)
Okay,
So studied combat and studied strike have been weigh on my mind a lot lately. People like the flavor and there seems a general condenses that it does not do enough damage, or at least consistent damage.
Here are my current thoughts on how to change the ability.
Studies strike stays the same (sort of, see below).
Studied combat becomes a move action to activate (with the quick study bumping it down to a swift). You then gain a half your investigator level bonus to melee attack rolls (as it is now) and as precision damage to the target (not multiplied on critical hits). You gain that precision damage even when you make studied strike. In other words there will be some wording that needs to be changed in studied strike to make that clear, because its time does not.
Thoughts?
I like it. Considering I'm looking at testing a level 5 group with Dawn of the Scarlet Sun, that does open up some options on build design. Previously, I'd have had to take Quick Study at level 5 for what I was considering. This opens up either taking the mutagen or another Inspiration discovery at that level, while still allowing for a smoother combat with an investigator.
I'll try to put up my thoughts and internal testing on it by tomorrow night. Hopefully it plays out like I imagine it would.
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Is there going to be anything that makes the investigator at least somewhat viable for 1st-3rd level? That's my main concern for the class (after the Studied Combat/Strike changes).
Given our playtest data to this point, the investigator is pretty darn viable at early levels. There is even some mild concerns that it is rather front-loaded. Putting studied combat at an earlier level has a very low likelihood of occurring.
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I guess that's not too bad then. I would like to see the flat damage be something other than precision (though it does fit the theme) if only so that it can multiply on a crit, that and things like concealment, elementals, some aberrations etc. will negate the damage entirely.Stephen, will you still be keeping the idea that there could be talents or upgrades to Studied Combat allowing it to be used on an enemy more than once a day?There may be talents that allow you to do that at the cost of inspiration. Still working that out.
I think it's more thematic as precision damage. Also I don't want to see people building around crits to take advantage of the studied strike, between Magus, Swashbuckler, fighters and their ilk, there's plenty of that.
The item lore ability looks like it mimics a cantrip but requires 7th and gives no additional bonuses. That is pretty underwhelming. The world probably wouldn't end if he got that at level one for free.
Is there going to be anything that makes the investigator at least somewhat viable for 1st-3rd level? That's my main concern for the class (after the Studied Combat/Strike changes).Given our playtest data to this point, the investigator is pretty darn viable at early levels. There is even some mild concerns that it is rather front-loaded. Putting studied combat at an earlier level has a very low likelihood of occurring.
Great work Stephen!
Any chance you consider creating a talent that grants the Investigator a cantrip or two? It would be cool and useful (detect magic, Sift etc.) and the class could pick Arcane strike as a feat.
BTW, I find the Investigator, swashbuckler and the Arcanists to be the most interesting of the new classes :)
Any chance you consider creating a talent that grants the Investigator a cantrip or two? It would be cool and useful (detect magic, Sift etc.) and the class could pick Arcane strike as a feat.
It does have access to the minor magic and major magic rogue talents.
also, i know you've read the ideas and that the idea of debilitating your studied target seems popular (at least among the most vocal here). i am curious how you feel about that idea since you haven't commented much on it. i would honestly prefer that to the damage boost. (though i am grateful for that.)I would imagine the ability to do that would live in investigator talents the same way it does for rogues with rogue talents.
okay, but (and i mean this respectfully) you wanted to distance investigators from rogues by not allowing them to surpass the rogue's paltry combat damage. sudden strike as printed obviously did that by just making them ineffectual. we liked the idea but obviously not the implementation so we made several suggestions about improving the damage (i'm fairly certain this actually was one) until someone made a suggestion about debuffing that fit the theme perfectly and would have made it totally okay that they paled in comparison to the already mediocre rogue at dealing damage. the tweaks to the mechanic are welcome and certainly helpful, but adding static damage just seems like a step back in the direction of just being a weaker rogue (or more accurately a weaker vivisectionist) rather than a unique class. i'd rather be able to take talents to help me deal more damage if i really want to be more of a damage dealer and be good at "fighting smart" by default.
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I know, but cast a cantrip 3 times per day seem a bit weak if you are an investigator. It is even weak if you are a rogue.
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Really? I felt it was the opposite of front loaded when playing one. Sure they get a lot of abilities, but they don't do much early on. Compared to an Alchemist they don't have Bombs/Sneak Attack or Mutagen to boost combat ability early on, and compared to the Rogue no Sneak Attack. With the Inspiration Pool being fairly small, having few free uses before talents come online, attack/save costing double, and few extracts combat ability for the first 2-3 levels was close to minimum for a 3/4 class.
A +1 attack/damage from Studied Combat at 2 wouldn't totally change that, but then it also wouldn't increase power too much either. I'd rather see Trapfinding and Poison Lore (which I still think is problematic, though that has gotten buried in the deluge of Studied Combat posts) moved up and get the minor combat boost and iconic ability early on. Those are more of an issue for dipping anyway, as they give new capabilities alongside/instead of a scaling bonus.
I know, but cast a cantrip 3 times per day seem a bit weak if you are an investigator. It is even weak if you are a rogue.
Item Lore settles that need, although it comes a bit late.
I know, but cast a cantrip 3 times per day seem a bit weak if you are an investigator. It is even weak if you are a rogue.Item Lore settles that need, although it comes a bit late.
Not if you want Sift, Mage hand, Open/Close etc.
Is there going to be anything that makes the investigator at least somewhat viable for 1st-3rd level? That's my main concern for the class (after the Studied Combat/Strike changes).Given our playtest data to this point, the investigator is pretty darn viable at early levels. There is even some mild concerns that it is rather front-loaded. Putting studied combat at an earlier level has a very low likelihood of occurring.
It's front-loaded, for sure, but everything it gets is - for the most part - utility.
In terms of its combat options until 4th level, it can spend 2 inspiration for a +1d6 to an attack roll, and it has a number of extracts that can help, but those are a little limited in application (enlarge person, shield, true strike).
It doesn't have any kind of signature combat ability until Studied Combat/Strike comes around at 4th level.
EDIT: Our you could take Mutagen as your 3rd level Investigator Talent, but that just reinforces that until 4th level you're a bombless Alchemist with Inspiration and Trapfinding.
One use of the new rather hefty attack enhancement is to make combat maneuvers. Which is totally appropriate - only there is a scarcity of feats for it.
I would love to see studied strike function as a debuff and keep the precision damage on studied combat. I would also love to see the 24 hour restriction function on the studied strike element (so the debuff functions like a hex) and does not end studied combat. I think that would be far more interesting than more d6's that ends combat for you against that target.
One use of the new rather hefty attack enhancement is to make combat maneuvers. Which is totally appropriate - only there is a scarcity of feats for it.
what new attack enhancement? damage doesn't help you use combat maneuvers and the bonus to hit is unchanged...
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If you're going to use talents to add debuffs to attacks, then I'd suggest letting you do that each attack rather than only on the studied strike. Otherwise, there's no point picking those traits up because the enemy will likely be nearly dead anyway. Instead, perhaps spend an Inspiration point to inflict them instead.
How about the way to study an opponent is to use one of these debuff abilities? You do two things useful to your team: a) Debuff enemy buying time. b) Set yourself up to hit hard later.
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I know, but cast a cantrip 3 times per day seem a bit weak if you are an investigator. It is even weak if you are a rogue.Item Lore settles that need, although it comes a bit late.
Item lore and the rogue talents are both pretty poor though. Minor magic is considered among the worst rogue talents outside of qualifying abilities like arcane strike, and easily one of the worst on its own and easily paid for with magic items instead.
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I would love to see studied strike function as a debuff and keep the precision damage on studied combat. I would also love to see the 24 hour restriction function on the studied strike element (so the debuff functions like a hex) and does not end studied combat. I think that would be far more interesting than more d6's that ends combat for you against that target.
except "you can only attempt to gouge your opponents eyes once per day" doesn't make much sense. do their eyes suddenly gain magical protection from being gouged? did your opponent just assume that you were going to go for the gouge again and turtle up? because if so he just weakened himself in some other way.
the investigator is not a witch. it's easy to justify 1/day per target restrictions magically, but with mundane maneuvers it becomes more difficult. i can understand the idea that studied combat is your entire fighting style and that someone will wise up to that, but not that they'll suddenly become immune to you poking them in the eyes.
I would love to see studied strike function as a debuff and keep the precision damage on studied combat. I would also love to see the 24 hour restriction function on the studied strike element (so the debuff functions like a hex) and does not end studied combat. I think that would be far more interesting than more d6's that ends combat for you against that target.except "you can only attempt to gouge your opponents eyes once per day" doesn't make much sense. do their eyes suddenly gain magical protection from being gouged? did your opponent just assume that you were going to go for the gouge again and turtle up? because if so he just weakened himself in some other way.
the investigator is not a witch. it's easy to justify 1/day per target restrictions magically, but with mundane maneuvers it becomes more difficult. i can understand the idea that studied combat is your entire fighting style and that someone will wise up to that, but not that they'll suddenly become immune to you poking them in the eyes.
Indeed. The repeated use against a target should become less effective or harder but not impossible.
Not if you want Sift, Mage hand, Open/Close etc.I know, but cast a cantrip 3 times per day seem a bit weak if you are an investigator. It is even weak if you are a rogue.Item Lore settles that need, although it comes a bit late.
I know =(
I'd prefer if Item Lore was a 7th level talent that gave you three cantrips.
The new change to studied combat and studied strike alleviates my concerns for that aspect of the class. My only suggestion now would be can we get Strong Impression added to the list of available rogue talents that the Investigator can take? It's kind of perfect for them, I was surprised to not see it.
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Can someone point me to the playtest data where they're viable at combat at low levels? I honestly haven't seen any, and I've been pretty good about reading the playtest reports. I'd love to see how they handled it.
Can someone point me to the playtest data where they're viable at combat at low levels? I honestly haven't seen any, and I've been pretty good about reading the playtest reports. I'd love to see how they handled it.
yeah, screenshots or it didn't happen.
Can someone point me to the playtest data where they're viable at combat at low levels? I honestly haven't seen any, and I've been pretty good about reading the playtest reports. I'd love to see how they handled it.
I imagine something along the lines of a 14 Strength and making use of Mutagen with a Reach weapon and enlarge person because that combo is amazing.
All I can find is this:
Given our playtest data to this point, the investigator is pretty darn viable at early levels.
But actually searching for those playtests, I don't see any. I see mine where my Investigator was weak but not useless but only due to dumping a lot of stats and spending half my points on Strength.
Can someone point me to the playtest data where they're viable at combat at low levels? I honestly haven't seen any, and I've been pretty good about reading the playtest reports. I'd love to see how they handled it.I imagine something along the lines of a 14 Strength and making use of Mutagen with a Reach weapon and enlarge person because that combo is amazing.
By the time you have Mutagen, you almost have Studied Strike, so we have to take Mutagen off the table to explain why Investigator can contribute to fights at levels 1 and 2.
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Can someone point me to the playtest data where they're viable at combat at low levels? I honestly haven't seen any, and I've been pretty good about reading the playtest reports. I'd love to see how they handled it.
As viable as rogue without sneak attack, evasion and, uncanny dodge until 4th.
And then, as useful as rogue 3 levels lower for one round, then back to uselessness.
Can someone point me to the playtest data where they're viable at combat at low levels? I honestly haven't seen any, and I've been pretty good about reading the playtest reports. I'd love to see how they handled it.I imagine something along the lines of a 14 Strength and making use of Mutagen with a Reach weapon and enlarge person because that combo is amazing.
Perhaps that is, but that's not at the low levels people are talking about. Investigator can get Mutagen at 3rd level, one level before sneak attack kicked in. It's the first two levels, or third if you want another talent, that are tricky.
There's a lot less playtest data than I would've expected at this point, tbh. Only a page and a half.
I already had over half the threads marked as "already opened at least once", and I honestly haven't seen any saying anything but "investigator needs in the first few levels in combat".
Maybe they have more sources of playtest data than we know about, but it just seems so...strange given all the public reports.
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The 3.5 Expanded Psionics book had a feat chain called Psionic Strike that was similar in theme to Studied Strike. It was used extensively by one of my players in a long running campaign, so I got to know the mechanics pretty well.
In my game the "study/charge-up" round was spent moving into position and usually hiding. Then, the following round, the big hit happened. With Spring Attack it was impressive.
The problem was that as the game progressed in level, losing out on two potential Full Attacks meant that player started to very quickly fall behind the curve.
Unless the Studied Strike effects become save-or-die level in power, it simply isn't worth the time.
The suggestion to apply debilitating status effects to a Studied Strike is an idea worth exploring if the idea of significantly upping the bonus damage isn't something the Dev team wants to pursue.
Unfortunately, right now the Investigator becomes immediately obsolete and (worse) frustratingly boring as soon as the party starts getting iterative attacks.
Not if you want Sift, Mage hand, Open/Close etc.I know, but cast a cantrip 3 times per day seem a bit weak if you are an investigator. It is even weak if you are a rogue.Item Lore settles that need, although it comes a bit late.
why in god's name would you use sift? it incurs a higher penalty than if you'd simply looked from where you're standing (sift is -5 for 30ft search, perception is -3 for 30ft search)!
also, never could figure out how open/close is useful--it only works on already unlocked (no door bars, locks, or other things that resist opening it) things that are under 30 pounds.
i usually just get detect magic--easy way to find magical traps or other nastiness beforehand so you can deal with them safely.
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as for the investigator changes: definitely an improvement from what it was previously, though i'll reserve my judgment on whether it's still too wimpy or not until after i actually test it out.
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Is there going to be anything that makes the investigator at least somewhat viable for 1st-3rd level? That's my main concern for the class (after the Studied Combat/Strike changes).Given our playtest data to this point, the investigator is pretty darn viable at early levels. There is even some mild concerns that it is rather front-loaded. Putting studied combat at an earlier level has a very low likelihood of occurring.
How about giving Studied Combat at 1st level without the damage (Min +1 bonus to hit) and then gaining the added damage at 4th level along with the Studied Strike?
Maybe they have more sources of playtest data than we know about, but it just seems so...strange given all the public reports.
I'm guessing that's the case; in-house, plus PFS. They did release the pre-release info to PFS members first, recall. Perhaps they have a more direct line of communication (or alternate) with those folk playtesting for that organization.
Maybe they have more sources of playtest data than we know about, but it just seems so...strange given all the public reports.I'm guessing that's the case; in-house, plus PFS. They did release the pre-release info to PFS members first, recall. Perhaps they have a more direct line of communication (or alternate) with those folk playtesting for that organization.
I'd say that's unlikely.
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Proposed Investigator Talent:
Disabling StrikesWhenever the Investigator hits the target of his studied strike he may spend a point of Inspiration to make a Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver as a free action. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Either as a talent, or baked right into the Studied Strike feature THAT would make it feel like the Sherlock Holmes style of combat. In my opinion.
Proposed Investigator Talent:
Either as a talent, or baked right into the Studied Strike feature THAT would make it feel like the Sherlock Holmes style of combat. In my opinion.
Disabling StrikesWhenever the Investigator hits the target of his studied strike he may spend a point of Inspiration to make a Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver as a free action. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
If the designers are unlikely to alter Studied Combat/Strikes too much to include some kind of debuffing ability, this could definitely work as an alternate method.
I like it.
Here are my current thoughts on how to change the ability.
Studies strike stays the same (sort of, see below).
Studied combat becomes a move action to activate (with the quick study bumping it down to a swift). You then gain a half your investigator level bonus to melee attack rolls (as it is now) and as precision damage to the target (not multiplied on critical hits). You gain that precision damage even when you make studied strike. In other words there will be some wording that needs to be changed in studied strike to make that clear, because its time does not.
Thoughts?
I liked my suggestion about adding Int mod to damage better, but half of your level as precision damage is easier to remember (same as the attack roll bonus) and precise damage makes a heck of a lot of sense, given that this class is based off of the King of Precision Damage (TM).
Question: Does the 24 hour limit stay?
Edit: Just saw your post clarifying that.
based off of the King of Precision Damage (TM).
The Vivisectionist?
The Vivisectionist?based off of the King of Precision Damage (TM).
this.
I would love to see studied strike function as a debuff and keep the precision damage on studied combat. I would also love to see the 24 hour restriction function on the studied strike element (so the debuff functions like a hex) and does not end studied combat. I think that would be far more interesting than more d6's that ends combat for you against that target.except "you can only attempt to gouge your opponents eyes once per day" doesn't make much sense. do their eyes suddenly gain magical protection from being gouged? did your opponent just assume that you were going to go for the gouge again and turtle up? because if so he just weakened himself in some other way.
the investigator is not a witch. it's easy to justify 1/day per target restrictions magically, but with mundane maneuvers it becomes more difficult. i can understand the idea that studied combat is your entire fighting style and that someone will wise up to that, but not that they'll suddenly become immune to you poking them in the eyes.
In the context of the ability, this argument makes no sense. Studied combat is a 1/day ability already.
Make better arguments please.
I would love to see studied strike function as a debuff and keep the precision damage on studied combat. I would also love to see the 24 hour restriction function on the studied strike element (so the debuff functions like a hex) and does not end studied combat. I think that would be far more interesting than more d6's that ends combat for you against that target.except "you can only attempt to gouge your opponents eyes once per day" doesn't make much sense. do their eyes suddenly gain magical protection from being gouged? did your opponent just assume that you were going to go for the gouge again and turtle up? because if so he just weakened himself in some other way.
the investigator is not a witch. it's easy to justify 1/day per target restrictions magically, but with mundane maneuvers it becomes more difficult. i can understand the idea that studied combat is your entire fighting style and that someone will wise up to that, but not that they'll suddenly become immune to you poking them in the eyes.
In the context of the ability, this argument makes no sense. Studied combat is a 1/day ability already.
Make better arguments please.
that you didn't understand it does not mean it doesn't make sense. you could have failed to comprehend... i could have failed to explain adequately... that the argument does not make sense is hardly a forgone conclusion.
anyway, you suggested some specific maneuver being usable 1/day per target "and does not end studied combat" (thus you imagine this being a maneuver that is a part of your style but not the summation thereof). the idea that because you tried to gouge someone's eyes once, they are now immune to your physical eye gouges is ridiculous. studied combat is your fighting style. the idea that your style of combat is very specific and after a short while your opponent has figured it out and can counter it is not ridiculous. i'm not saying their not the same mechanically... i'm saying their not the same conceptually and one breaks easily shatters my willing suspension of disbelief.
edit: in other words within the same fighting style you might have several ways of executing this maneuver. he's only seen one. he shouldn't yet be immune. it's easy to see the end of studied combat as the opponent having figured out the types of tricks you do to pull off that maneuver (and/or similar ones) because he's gotten to feel out your style. but one maneuver is not one's entire fighting style.
Martial arts are very specific. In no situation can you negate the benefits of an entire martial style in a few rounds of combat, ever. Martial art styles of specific schools were known to have "secret techniques" that were devastating because people that saw them usually died. They were not effective after a person had encountered them.
Good enough?
Martial arts are very specific. In no situation can you negate the benefits of an entire martial style in a few rounds of combat, ever. Martial art styles of specific schools were known to have "secret techniques" that were devastating because people that saw them usually died. They were not effective after a person had encountered them.
Good enough?
to explain sudden strike? yes. to explain why something as simple as an eye gouge suddenly becomes ineffective? no.
in retrospect, i think i had the wrong impression about what you were originally suggesting.
Just like it states in the document right now, once per enemy per 24 hours.So the idea is that you get some small extra steady damage, and then you end it with one strong hit?
First thought is that I like that, and perhaps more importantly, I'm interested to playtest it.
Is it still limited to once per enemy per 24 hours?
Duration = to Int Modifier? Well, Int Bonus, I guess.
One enemy per 24 hours. Yes.
Duration is Int bonus. That's an official change that is in the first post of the boards.
Stephen, to clarify what you just wrote, is it:
1. Once per enemy per 24 hours? Or
2. One enemy per 24 hours?Do you mean that this is now a once per day ability, or still an ability that can be used multiple times a day providing it is used on different targets?
Would you consider allowing Investigators to use Studied Combat more than one pert target per 24 hours? Like maybe 1 time with an additional use every few levels? Or maybe even infinite uses?
Martial arts are very specific. In no situation can you negate the benefits of an entire martial style in a few rounds of combat, ever. Martial art styles of specific schools were known to have "secret techniques" that were devastating because people that saw them usually died. They were not effective after a person had encountered them.
Good enough?
to explain sudden strike? yes. to explain why something as simple as an eye gouge suddenly becomes ineffective? no.
in retrospect, i think i had the wrong impression about what you were originally suggesting.
Think of it like this, you found a breach in the opponents defenses and took advantage of it. However! Enemies aren't dumb and they're sure to shore up their stance after that.
Think of it like this, you found a breach in the opponents defenses and took advantage of it. However! Enemies aren't dumb and they're sure to shore up their stance after that.Martial arts are very specific. In no situation can you negate the benefits of an entire martial style in a few rounds of combat, ever. Martial art styles of specific schools were known to have "secret techniques" that were devastating because people that saw them usually died. They were not effective after a person had encountered them.
Good enough?
to explain sudden strike? yes. to explain why something as simple as an eye gouge suddenly becomes ineffective? no.
in retrospect, i think i had the wrong impression about what you were originally suggesting.
yes, that would explain something like the end of studied combat where everything you do becomes harder. (though really isn't that what things like combat expertise are for? shouldn't your enemy be shoring up his defenses via his own abilities rather than failures of yours?)
it still wouldn't explain your attempts at eye gouging suddenly having zero chance of success. if the enemy is suddenly so concerned that you will gouge his eyes that he diverts enough attention to preventing it as to make it impossible for you to accomplish, he's going to have to open up some other vulnerability.
edit: but really this doesn't matter and isn't really relevant to the class as it is currently.
I am just trying to point out that your own premise makes more sense in the context of studied strike, but not studied combat. You can't shore up your fighting style against a complete counter style.
I do think it is relevant to the class because posters were talking about how awesome a debuff combatant would be. I appreciate what Stephen was referencing with talents to create this kind of dynamic, but studied strike would be counter intuitive with the current mechanic because you would be losing your combat edge completely.
A melee debuff class is a great idea, but one that has to choose between hitting or debuffing will find itself not using the debuffs. I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page in terms of how the mechanics of studied stike plays out currently. It works fine if your going to throw a haymaker later in the fight, but any kind of debuff based mechanic would have to work in reverse to be viable. Thats the only reason I keep mentioning it really, because just swapping out studied strike damage dice for rogue equivalent debuff talents would not work well.
I would also like to note that the debuff specialist would have to throw everything into intelligence to be viable (make saving throws difficult) and that would drastically impact the classes damage output, which would also ensure that rogues would not be trivialized in the damage arena.
It also makes a lot of sense for someone like Holmes, who's combat expertise comes from his incredible intellect.
Alright, said my piece, time to mosey.