Revised Investigator Discussion


Class Discussion

301 to 350 of 830 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>

My thesis is that for any given X, you can create an investigator who can X and self-buff like a madman, and a rogue who can X and Y. The rogue will never be able to independently buff like an investigator, but the investigator will not be able to X and Y while retaining their core competence.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

and then both will be outshined by the alchemist,the bard, the ranger and the inquisitor.

Contributor

cuatroespada wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
@Tels Your comments about the Developers' Intelligence isn't constructive. If this was my Playtest, I'd be inclined to ignore everything you said after that point so the fact that Sean, Jason, and Stephen even read your insult-ridden posts makes them better people than most.
i don't recall Tels insulting the intelligence of the devs... what i read was Tels feeling insulted by the devs' apparent regard (or disregard) for the intelligence of their supporters.

I was referring to this part of his post:

Tels wrote:
I have to wonder why it is that the developers think everyone but themselves are idiots? We aren't 10 year olds that don't realize something is a bad idea until we've already started it. We are intelligent human beings, and we are fully capable of looking at something and saying, "Hey, that isn't a good idea" without having to play it first.

I agree that in retrospect, saying that he was insulting the Developer's intelligence wasn't accurate. That said, my point about derogatory remarks like this still stands.


also since skald gets bardic knowledge you can tack him onto the list of skillmonkey competitors as well.

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
Not for this thread guys. This is about the investigator.

+1

I am trying to come up with a viable PFS legal Investigator build for tomorrow night. Is anyone else still trying to come up with a workable build? My best ideas so far or for a Tiefling to Dump STR/CHA/WIS and max out DX/INT so you can get your 1 round of studied combat at 4th level and hopefully a 2nd soon afterwords. Take claws to get multiple chances to land a studied strike. Weapon finesse for to hit and AOMF Agile for damage

My other idea is a dip in Lore Warden or Maneuver Master and use the studied combat bonus to pull of maneuvers instead of studied strike. This build still needs to dump 2 or 3 stats to be able have 1 round of studied combat, be able to hit and have decent H.P.

What I don't like about either approach is they don't give you a viable combatant to playtest until 4th level or later. Is anyone else trying to come up with a build that is leveraging studied combat/strike and is viable at low and mid level combat? I would really like to hear some other ideas.


Well, since I was a strong advocate for replacing sneak attack with something more thematically appropriate. Let me just say that Studied Combat has some serious problems.

Firstly, NO ability should have a duration of 1/2 of any stat modifier. It essentially means that the duration is 1 round for int 5 through int 17 and only increases at 18 and then again at 22 and 26. 26 is tough to get until you are very high level, so for most players this will cap out at 3 rounds... that is the first thing. The duration should just be equal to intelligence modifier, not half.

Secondly, the bonuses are actually pretty interesting, but Studied Strike becomes sort of a waste until it is the very last attack you are going to make. The bonus to hit is actually pretty great IMO, and for a ranged investigator will, at level 10 be mitigating all the penalties for Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim. As others have said, this is also pretty great for attempting maneuvers.

The aspect of choice here is cooler than I think some people are giving it credit for, however, the 24 hour bit is really junky. The investigator should be choosing to either get one higher damage attack per round (move action study with quick study and single attack) or use the nice hit bonus to make regular full attacks with no bonus damage (which with a better duration would give a few full-attacks).

Still, the 24 hour penalty here is not good and the duration is disturbingly short for something that requires such a heavy action investment. Really, if the duration is fixed then the 24 hour lock out is less of an issue for me.

Also, I think that this ability should simply be a move action and that quick study should just have the swift action activation. Why? Because Quick Study essentially becomes a requirement... and I never like situations where class feature X is not good until you take option Y. It means that everyone will take option Y as a tax to be able to use feature X. Right now, if you have an Int of 16 and you study a target as a standard action, you lose the bonuses before you ever gget to use them.

Honestly, if it were up to me, this ability would last a number of rounds equal to 1/2 the investigator's level (so 2 rounds at 4th) and add the investigator's Int bonus to attack rolls. This way it starts out strong, and the bonus scales a small amount over the levels as the investigator's int increases, and the duration scales very nicely. I would make this ability a move action from the word go, just to avoid the inevitable talent tax.

Love the change to Poison Use though.


Investigator continues to be my favorite class.

Well, favorite in terms of classes I was looking forward to going in, anyway. (The revised Arcanist is now my favorite class, and it was my least favorite at the start of this process.)

The Studied Strike abilities seem to have a lot of really interesting potential, though at a mere read they may have some limitations. I'd definitely like to see these worked with more, rather than go back to Sneak Attack for the Investigator.


My idea might be to take Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Studied combat should get you into the optimum attack bonus range.

Designer

Please keep the discussion on the investigator. I have no problem with discussing it merits compared to the classes it is derived from, but let's try not to digress in a tangent on build optimization for other classes.

Thank you.

Liberty's Edge

I have had limited playtest experience so far, but here are my thoughts after 1 scenario.
As of now, I'm not sure foe much difference in practice studied strike and sneak attack end up, because on my play (which to be fair wasn't high enough level to have either), even of i had hit, the damage would be negligible.

Love the inspiration and (now) poison lore.

Personally, I would like more options with studied strike to do more than just add to my damage. Maybe some debuff options, or perhaps have studied combat last for the Int bonus in rounds, and for each round the investigator hits, allies get a bonus to hit or damage or maneuvers. So the longer he studies the better it gets (as long as you hit, so each successful hit essentially means a successful study/hunch) with maybe the option to extend rounds by burning an inspiration point or two.

Overall, still liking the class, would just like something to do in combat, preferably just not trying to purely be a damage dealer (which, sure, feats are for, but would like some sort of versatility for working study into combat options).

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
RJGrady wrote:
My idea might be to take Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Studied combat should get you into the optimum attack bonus range.

So just dump Cha and Wis, max out int and go with a moderate str/dx/cn.

Or you could go piranha strike but then it will not really work at 1st level.

That could work I will try it out in a few builds.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Please keep the discussion on the investigator. I have no problem with discussing it merits compared to the classes it is derived from, but let's try not to digress in a tangent on build optimization for other classes.

Thank you.

it was less on optimization and more on a lack of basic functionality, but yes, i'll drop it.


More ideas: Spend an inspiration point to make all of your attacks this turn target Touch AC. Spend an inspiration point to make an additional attack as a standard action, but only 1/round.


I like the concept of studied strike but not its implementation. Taking one round out to study and then having only one or two rounds of damage (if your int is high enough) seems far too weak even if an investigator is more likely to get the bonus than a rogue. Change the combat study to a move action since the investigator is more likely to use its initial standard for an extract and then make the duration one round per int bonus not half. This will balance the ability if retaining the rule that adding the studied strike damage ends the combat study.


Idea: Spend an inspiration point to add INT to attack and 1d6/2 levels precision damage until the end of the turn.

Spend an inspiration point (as an immediate action) to add int to AC until the end of the round.


I'm actually a pretty big fan of simply "gain Improved Feint as a bonus feat," and "give the Investigator a delayed favored target progression." And sneak attack.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:


I am leaning toward these three options right now.

1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).

First off: WE LIKE THIS ABILITY! It is very cool! It just needs a little love. Going back to Sneak Attack would certainly be a step backwards in every aspect. Let's keep working on this!

#2 is my vote out of your listed choices. Having to buy-in to access the better attack/damage options is a fine way to keep the character second to other combat-classes but still relevant. But it NEEDS to be able to do this more than once or twice per enemy. This feels much closer to the 3.5 Paladin's "better hope you don't screw up a single roll!" balance mechanic for Smite Evil.

With almost all of his build points going into Intelligence, the current Investigator is going to be incapable of hitting anything relevant once he reaches mid-game. This and Inspiration are going to be his only hope to be able to make multiple effective attacks in combat and do a relevant amount of damage. Making him only able to do that once or twice per enemy is an incredibly brutal restriction, and I feel dooms it to being a by-stander in combat versus any sort of participant.

I appreciate that trying to balance damage is tricky, as finding a pace that contributes to combat but still doesn't overshadow the blatant DPS characters is difficult. Thus I'd echo others here and say focus more on Dirty Trick-like abilities. Sherlock Holmes wasn't a soldier or monk, he was a tactician first and foremost. Make his abilities about hampering, neutralizing, and out-maneuvering opponents, not tickling them then uppercutting them through a roof.
I'd completely dump the damage progression in favor of Dirty Trick-type abilities, or heck, even take a page from Brawler and give him bonuses to all sorts of Combat Maneuvers. Downgrade the Damage progression to a Talent as an alternate choice.

Thanks for all your work thus far; currently putting together a group that's going to rigorously test some of the new classes tonight. Investigator is DEFINITELY going to be in there to work some of this out.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Also, Poison Lore is a GREAT addition to the class in all respects. I love it. (sorry, just trying to balance the negative constructive criticism with some praise. :P )


Studied Combat and Quick Study is perfect as it is.I vote to keep it unchanged. No, I demand it.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Ulmaxes wrote:
I appreciate that trying to balance damage is tricky, as finding a pace that contributes to combat but still doesn't overshadow the blatant DPS characters is difficult. Thus I'd echo others here and say focus more on Dirty Trick-like abilities. Sherlock Holmes wasn't a soldier or monk, he was a tactician first and foremost. Make his abilities about hampering, neutralizing, and out-maneuvering opponents, not tickling them then uppercutting them through a roof.

This. Absolutely this. If you want to match the flavour of the scene, you could always have each attack inflict a debuff, and then if you want a sudden spike in damage you can end the Studied Combat in the way it works now. So you get a couple of rounds of it, inflicting, let's say, silence (punch to throat/solar plexus to knock the wind out of them; break the jaw), staggered (that strike to both ears) and other such things. All potentially useful things you could be doing that don't involve doing extra damage, and then the last attack is the kick through the gate, leaving all witnesses wondering "Where did that come from?"


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sleet Storm wrote:
Studied Combat and Quick Study is perfect as it is.I vote to keep it unchanged. No, I demand it.

Good luck with that.

Not really, but it seemed the right thing to say.

The Exchange

bartgroks wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Not for this thread guys. This is about the investigator.

+1

I am trying to come up with a viable PFS legal Investigator build for tomorrow night. Is anyone else still trying to come up with a workable build? My best ideas so far or for a Tiefling to Dump STR/CHA/WIS and max out DX/INT so you can get your 1 round of studied combat at 4th level and hopefully a 2nd soon afterwords. Take claws to get multiple chances to land a studied strike. Weapon finesse for to hit and AOMF Agile for damage

This is exactly what I did for my investigator, except I settled for an 18 dex/int before items and chose to only "dump" str, keep wis at 10, and put a 14 into cha (which went down to a 12) because I also planned on being the party face in addition to the trap finder/disarmer, knowledge junkie, and stealthy scout. I really don't see how I can make good use of Studied Combat/Strike how it's written right now, as I'd rather use that standard action to drink an extract of cat's grace for +2 atk/dmg(agile AOMF)/ac/reflex saves for 5 minutes than getting +2 to attacks for effectively one round and +1d6 on one attack.


I'll pipe up with wanting Studied Combat to last Int mod rather than half.

I like Studied Strike but I think getting to use it more would be more interesting. If it were not limited and added Int to damage, not limited and dealt a slower d6 progression, not limited and mirrored Kirin style feats (allowing movements and int to damage, or limited but did not end Studied combat it would work out better to me. I think if it did less damage but were not limited the devs would be more willing to give talents that augmented it and allowed it to do different debuffs. Long story short; I think Studied Strike/Combat should be weaker, more frequent and customizable with talents.

Other than that I think the class is perfect.

Designer

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Malwing wrote:

I'll pipe up with wanting Studied Combat to last Int mod rather than half.

I like Studied Strike but I think getting to use it more would be more interesting. If it were not limited and added Int to damage, not limited and dealt a slower d6 progression, not limited and mirrored Kirin style feats (allowing movements and int to damage, or limited but did not end Studied combat it would work out better to me. I think if it did less damage but were not limited the devs would be more willing to give talents that augmented it and allowed it to do different debuffs. Long story short; I think Studied Strike/Combat should be weaker, more frequent and customizable with talents.

Other than that I think the class is perfect.

Well I can tell you for sure that Studied strike will last for Int mod rather than half. Right now I'm sure of that.


I read the playtest packet and Studied Strike. It is pretty worthless. It pretty much says that investigators get to fight every other turn. This is the antithesis of fun. I hate wasting a turn while

Sure the investigators attacks are probably going to hit (not that they always will), but it will not do that much extra damage, anyways. Essentially every class can giggle at 31.5 MAYBE there is a power attack build in here somewhere. I don't know. I mean: that attack bonus is going to get pretty big, but are we supposed to be building this class for strength if we want to do any kind of damage? Even if there IS a viable build somewhere, that build will be NO FUN because I have to waste--at least--the first turn of every combat.

Can't we at least weaken the attack bonus just a tad (to like: 1/3 level) and get the bonus as a move action?

This is now an unplayable class and I feel ashamed of myself for being excited for this new class feature. It is a combat-retarded alchemist that can find traps and has some extra skill stuff.

I really hope they change out the ability (even if they just change it back to sneak attack).


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:


Well I can tell you for sure that Studied strike will last for Int mod rather than half. Right now I'm sure of that.

Yay! *tapes pfs playtest characters back together*


1 person marked this as a favorite.

More ideas:

Remove Studied Strike and revert to Sneak Attack. Reduce the increase of Sneak Attack so that it maxes out at 5 or 6d6 damage at the end cap.

Alter Studied Combat so that on top of the current insight bonus to attacks,it allows you to spend a point of inspiration to deny the target its DEX for that round. Only allow this to be used once per target.

This lets the Investigator take advantage of the normal positional Sneak Attack but grants him a much-needed attack bonus and also gives him a way to get some precision damage at will, albeit limited in scope and usage.

The Exchange

I still stand by an Investigator with a Hand Crossbow (cool factor) with a two level dip in MoMS for Kirin Strike and Focused Shot by level 3. Ignore Studied Combat and Strike altogether and get 1d4+(3xInt) in damage a round while retaining your move action to move or drink potions (Accelerated Drinker) or do some other thing. Of course, this is for PFS where the damage still contributes at level 11 and you can rock almost every skill check.

Grand Lodge

I have a comment that isn't about the studied combat/strike mechanic (all of the things that seemed off about it for me have been covered SUPER well!), it's about poison lore.

While I like the ability to apply it with no risks (never been a big fan of poison use for my character's myself, my foe's always seem to make those DC's), it's still nice to have the option. IDing poisons seems to be right on theme for these guys as well. Awesome. But how hard is it supposed to be to destroy/neutralize a poison? Is this to do so after someone's been poisoned, or just a dose of poison that's been found? Seems like that scenario would play out like so in one of my groups:

Dollar Dan Justice (Ratfolk Investigator): Iocane powder, I bet my life on it. Now, I shall carefully neutralize it...

Thog the Barbarian (overly enthused human barbarian): ME DO IT!!
(Thog throws the poison into the fire, where the poison burns away).

Thog the Barbarian: ME HELPING!!

(Oh Thog...)
Anyway.

It reads like the intention of the skill is to dispose of unused doses of poison. Which seems a bit silly. I've never had an issue with this before, but maybe I'm missing a rule? Because if poison is supposed to be hard to dispose of, just let me know! My players will "thank" you all for it!! muwahahahaha...

Now, if it's to neutralize a poison in someone's system, that has some potential! It does take 2 minutes to do so, which might be two minutes too long, but it has some potential.

So am I missing something with that clause of the rule, or is it just supposed to be more flavorful then utilitarian?

Thanks! This and Slayer are on my short list to play when next on that side of the cardboard curtain.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm really concerned about the fact that people in the thread have pointed out VERY specific reasons why Studied Strike is flavorful but bad and yet despite these VERY specific arguments, Stephen seems to only counter with "this is how it is" or "this is how I think it should be" kind of comments. And the whole thing about just switching it back to Sneak Attack instead of trying to make Studied Combat work just came across as "I'm so close to done I don't care." Rude, in other words.

It's great that the devs are getting so involved in the forum aspect, but I will never understand the [apparent] need to guard their thought processes or insights.

Studied Combat is a fantastic idea. (Is there an echo in here?) Limiting it to once per 24 hours makes absolutely zero sense, for any reason I can think of. First of all, it's not a magical ability, so you can't fluff that away as "the investigator is out of magical studying ability." Studying a target once, damaging it, and then reassessing them after the fact to see what would be the next most preferable target is completely reasonable. Secondly, the bonus damage added by Studied Strike will never amount to anything significant if you can only use it ONCE PER ENEMY. Great, you can probably wipe out mooks faster, if you take the time to study them.

Honestly, truly, I respect the design team, but sometimes their stubbornness on leaving things a certain way in spite of overwhelming amounts of creative discussion 'just because' is really hard to swallow.

Designer

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Foghammer wrote:
I'm really concerned about the fact that people in the thread have pointed out VERY specific reasons why Studied Strike is flavorful but bad and yet despite these VERY specific arguments, Stephen seems to only counter with "this is how it is" or "this is how I think it should be" kind of comments. And the whole thing about just switching it back to Sneak Attack instead of trying to make Studied Combat work just came across as "I'm so close to done I don't care." Rude, in other words.

It was not being rude. It was being honest. I have a list of options. Right now I am looking at data and finding the best way to get the investigator where he needs to be.

Right now I am absorbing and considering positions and data. My answers will absolutely be "this is how it is" and "this is how I think it should be" until I get all the information that I need to make a definitive choice.

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Foghammer wrote:

I'm really concerned about the fact that people in the thread have pointed out VERY specific reasons why Studied Strike is flavorful but bad and yet despite these VERY specific arguments, Stephen seems to only counter with "this is how it is" or "this is how I think it should be" kind of comments. And the whole thing about just switching it back to Sneak Attack instead of trying to make Studied Combat work just came across as "I'm so close to done I don't care." Rude, in other words.

It's great that the devs are getting so involved in the forum aspect, but I will never understand the [apparent] need to guard their thought processes or insights.

Studied Combat is a fantastic idea. (Is there an echo in here?) Limiting it to once per 24 hours makes absolutely zero sense, for any reason I can think of. First of all, it's not a magical ability, so you can't fluff that away as "the investigator is out of magical studying ability." Studying a target once, damaging it, and then reassessing them after the fact to see what would be the next most preferable target is completely reasonable. Secondly, the bonus damage added by Studied Strike will never amount to anything significant if you can only use it ONCE PER ENEMY. Great, you can probably wipe out mooks faster, if you take the time to study them.

Honestly, truly, I respect the design team, but sometimes their stubbornness on leaving things a certain way in spite of overwhelming amounts of creative discussion 'just because' is really hard to swallow.

People seriously need to chill out about this.

This is the second draft of a playtest, and the first draft of an ability that has been out for ~24 hours. You apparently missed several "we're looking at possible changes" posts from Stephen, including one no less than 20 minutes before you posted that acknowledged at least one specific change.

Relax.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Foghammer wrote:

I'm really concerned about the fact that people in the thread have pointed out VERY specific reasons why Studied Strike is flavorful but bad and yet despite these VERY specific arguments, Stephen seems to only counter with "this is how it is" or "this is how I think it should be" kind of comments. And the whole thing about just switching it back to Sneak Attack instead of trying to make Studied Combat work just came across as "I'm so close to done I don't care." Rude, in other words.

It's great that the devs are getting so involved in the forum aspect, but I will never understand the [apparent] need to guard their thought processes or insights.

Studied Combat is a fantastic idea. (Is there an echo in here?) Limiting it to once per 24 hours makes absolutely zero sense, for any reason I can think of. First of all, it's not a magical ability, so you can't fluff that away as "the investigator is out of magical studying ability." Studying a target once, damaging it, and then reassessing them after the fact to see what would be the next most preferable target is completely reasonable. Secondly, the bonus damage added by Studied Strike will never amount to anything significant if you can only use it ONCE PER ENEMY. Great, you can probably wipe out mooks faster, if you take the time to study them.

Honestly, truly, I respect the design team, but sometimes their stubbornness on leaving things a certain way in spite of overwhelming amounts of creative discussion 'just because' is really hard to swallow.

I'd like to point out here that you're making it seem like every single person on the forums thinks they should change it completely, or drop it, or something. A vocal minority shouldn't decide one way or another. I personally really love what they've done with studied combat, and now that Jason has said that it'll definitely last Int mod rounds, I think it'll be awesome.

And remember, the developers are developers for a reason... they've been doing their jobs for a long time and are quite good at what they do. Don't assume that you or any of us on the forum knows better than them. I'm sure they're taking everything said here to heart and deciding which of the suggestions makes the most sense for the class that THEY made. Give them a break.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I love a lot about the Investigator. Here are some suggestions to try out.

I'm torn about how much damage potential the Investigator should have, given how good he is out of combat. Here are some ideas, though, that might make his combat abilities a bit more flavorful and appealing.

1) Studied Combat: Keep it a standard action and have it last until the end of the Investigators next round, plus half of his INT mod (minimum 1) in rounds. This makes it useful every time. Remove the limitation that it can only affect a creature once in 24 hours.

2) Remove Studied Strike and add to Studied Combat, "As a free action, the Investigator can spend one point of Inspiration to add his INT modifier to damage (minimum 1) to the target of his Studied Combat bonuses. He can choose to do this after he has hit his target." Add a Talent that grants the bonus damage to every hit made to the target before the beginning of his next round after spending Inspiration, or a Talent that allows the Investigator to add damage once per turn without spending Inspiration. (Not really fond of spending Inspiration to up damage, but it's one way to do it.)

3) Add a new Talent that grants the Investigator the Improved Dirty Trick feat, without needing to meet the requirements. The Investigator can spend an Inspriation as a free action to force the target to spend a standard action to remove the effect.

4) Add a new Talent that grants the Investigator the Greater Dirty Trick feat without meeting the prerequisites. (This requires the lesser Talent.) The Investigator can target AC or CMD with this manuever, whichever is lowest. The Investigator can spend a point of Inspiration as a free action to add his INT modifier to the number of rounds the target is affected by the condition granted by the Dirty Trick.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

. . .

I am leaning toward these three options right now.

1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).

Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.

I agree that the power is neat in concept and thematically very appropriate. I'ld vote with (1) so that it doesn't conflict with other preparations at the start of battle -- getting the character into action quicker -- while keeping the 24 hour limitation encourages players to find the most effective way of using the ability.

Option (2), as others have stated, is likely to result in most Investigators attacking every other round.

Option (3) is relatively boring, but it would work.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ulmaxes wrote:
Also, Poison Lore is a GREAT addition to the class in all respects. I love it. (sorry, just trying to balance the negative constructive criticism with some praise. :P )

Yeah, this one was definitely a win. Also the investigative aspects of it (being able to examine and identify poisons) is the sort of thing I'm hoping to see more of with this class.

Is there something along the lines of Poison Lore that can be tied to Sense Motive or Perception? A way for an investigator to get additional information from tracking opponents, or from a successful "hunch"?


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Malwing wrote:

I'll pipe up with wanting Studied Combat to last Int mod rather than half.

I like Studied Strike but I think getting to use it more would be more interesting. If it were not limited and added Int to damage, not limited and dealt a slower d6 progression, not limited and mirrored Kirin style feats (allowing movements and int to damage, or limited but did not end Studied combat it would work out better to me. I think if it did less damage but were not limited the devs would be more willing to give talents that augmented it and allowed it to do different debuffs. Long story short; I think Studied Strike/Combat should be weaker, more frequent and customizable with talents.

Other than that I think the class is perfect.

Well I can tell you for sure that Studied strike will last for Int mod rather than half. Right now I'm sure of that.

YAAAAAAAY!!!!

Well then, I think with Quick Study, this is going to be very cool. Some people are focusing too much on Studied Strike, which (with the 24 hour lockout) is pretty underwhelming I will admit. But the attack bonus is actually really good. Studied Combat is really very cool, and the bonus scales well, and ... just yay! I don't mind having to spend a talent on quick study to get this to work (and hopefully there will be an "Extra Talent" feat or the investigator can use the "Extra Rogue Talent" feat)

With a duration equal to Int mod, this will last long enough for most fights if you invest into a decent intelligence. I can say pretty confidently, that by level 5, this will be a great ability. It is different from a rogue and that is A-OKAY with me. Accuracy over damage is not a problem.

I am hoping, however, that this can enable ranged builds as well, even if the bonus only applies within 30ft. But either way.... this is very cool in my opinion, and with maneuvers can be super neat.

Contributor

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.

I am leaning toward these three options right now.

1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).

Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.

#3 is the worst option. Studied Strike and Studied Combat are too cool to simply drop.

Why not have your cake and eat it too with something like this for Studied Strike:

Studied Combat (Ex): wrote:


Studied Combat (Ex): At 4th level, an investigator can take a standard action to study a single enemy that he can see. Upon doing so his keen eye and calculating mind allow him to take advantage of any gaps in his target's talent or training, allowing him to add half his Investigator level as an insight bonus to melee attack rolls against the creature and his Intelligence bonus (if any) as an insight bonus to melee damage rolls made against the creature. These bonuses last for a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1 round) or until he chooses to make a studied strike, whichever comes first. An investigator can only have one target of studied combat at a time.

Then add an Investigator Talent like this:

Glossing Gaze (Ex): wrote:
An investigator with this talent can use his studied combat against a single enemy as a move action instead of a standard action. Once a creature has become the target of an investigator's glossing gaze, he cannot become the target of the same investigator's glossing gaze for 24 hours. An investigator must be at least 5th level in order to select this talent.

That said, we need additional talents that interact with Studied Combat a bit more. For example, adding a talent like this would be nifty:

Studied Maneuvers (Ex) wrote:
When an investigator with this talent attempts a combat maneuver check against the target of his studied combat, he does not provoke attacks of opportunity with that combat maneuver unless the target of his studied combat possesses that combat maneuver's Improved feat. An investigator who possesses the Improved feat of a combat maneuver never provokes attacks of opportunity when using that maneuver against the target of his studied combat.

Grand Lodge

With the exception of the 24 hour limit and the half INT duration (which has already been set to change to full INT, whoo). I like the studied abilities. Spend a standard action and get a bonus to attack for a couple rounds then finish it off with a "sneak attack". I think the bonus to attack is really going to help poison use and its not a complete rogue ripoff. Add Inspiration in and things can get a little crazy.


The only problems with studied combat is how long it takes to get it and how low the actual bonuses are. You've still got three levels where you're useless in a fight, and you still need 18 INT to get better than a +1 bonus - meaning that as far as the bonuses are concerned there's no difference between INT 5 and INT 17. My only suggestions would be to let you get it at level 1, and let you have your full INT bonus up to a maximum of your Investigator level for those bonuses.

Well, that and more Talents to let you do more things with it, as someone else already suggested.


Foghammer wrote:
I'm really concerned about the fact that people in the thread have pointed out VERY specific reasons why Studied Strike is flavorful but bad and yet despite these VERY specific arguments, Stephen seems to only counter with "this is how it is" or "this is how I think it should be" kind of comments. And the whole thing about just switching it back to Sneak Attack instead of trying to make Studied Combat work just came across as "I'm so close to done I don't care." Rude, in other words.

Funny. I didn't get that at all.

He's been pretty open about the fact that this is an experiment, they're still trying and considering different things, and he'd just really like us to playtest the class as it currently stands, to get some more feedback.

He's also already indicated that they are making at least one change (the duration), so the process is working. And the sky still isn't falling.


8 people marked this as a favorite.

Studied Strike could simply add an static number that scales with level.

A +1 bonus at 1st level that increases by +1 every 5 Investigator levels, ending up with a +5 at 20th level. This translates to the class getting a circumstantial full BAB against 1 enemy.

Make it a swift action and remove the "once every 24h" restriction (it makes no sense) and SS will work perfectly without being OP or underwhelming.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:

Studied Strike could simply add an static number that scales with level.

+1 at 1st level and increases by +1 for every 5 Investigator levels, ending up with a +5 at 20th level. This translates to the class getting a circumstantial full BAB against 1 enemy.

Make it a swift action and remove the "once every 24h" restriction (it makes no sense) and SS will work perfectly without being OP or underwhelming.

since it was brought up that core class AT's will let them "get their feet wet" with the hybrid abilities (rogue grabbing studied combat/strike was specifically mentioned, iirc), might actually make it appetizing to rogues--they might actually hit things then!

Grand Lodge

Chris Parker wrote:

The only problems with studied combat is how long it takes to get it and how low the actual bonuses are. You've still got three levels where you're useless in a fight, and you still need 18 INT to get better than a +1 bonus - meaning that as far as the bonuses are concerned there's no difference between INT 5 and INT 17. My only suggestions would be to let you get it at level 1, and let you have your full INT bonus up to a maximum of your Investigator level for those bonuses.

Well, that and more Talents to let you do more things with it, as someone else already suggested.

Ok, 4th level is a little rough, I'll give you that. As far as the INT goes either im not understanding the ability of you arnt. At level 4 with a INT of 14 it would get a +2 bonus for 1 round (2 rounds with the change) right? That is how i am reading it.


Lemmy wrote:

Studied Strike could simply add an static number that scales with level.

+1 at 1st level and increases by +1 for every 5 Investigator levels, ending up with a +5 at 20th level. This translates to the class getting a circumstantial full BAB against 1 enemy.

Make it a swift action and remove the "once every 24h" restriction (it makes no sense) and SS will work perfectly without being OP or underwhelming.

That also makes sense. It's certainly not OP, and it's certainly better than maxing out at a +3 (not counting headband of Intellect or training manuals)...


AndIMustMask wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

Studied Strike could simply add an static number that scales with level.

+1 at 1st level and increases by +1 for every 5 Investigator levels, ending up with a +5 at 20th level. This translates to the class getting a circumstantial full BAB against 1 enemy.

Make it a swift action and remove the "once every 24h" restriction (it makes no sense) and SS will work perfectly without being OP or underwhelming.

since it was brought up that core class AT's will let them "get their feet wet" with the hybrid abilities (rogue grabbing sutdied combat/strike was psecifically mentioned, iirc), might actually make it appetizing to rogues--they might actually hit things then!

Indeed. A while ago I took a bunch of Rogue Talents and completely remade them. One of the revised talents ended up being very similar to SS.

The Rogue would use a Swift Action to make a Bluff or Sleight of Hand check resisted by her target's Sense Motive. If the Rogue is successful, she gets a level-dependent bonus to attack rolls (1+ 1/5 Rogue level)for a number of rounds equal to her Int modifier. She could do this as often as she wished, but it only applied to one enemy at a time, so no biggie.

Rogues got their very needed accuracy boost without looking like Trapper Rangers.


Turkus Longfist wrote:
Chris Parker wrote:

The only problems with studied combat is how long it takes to get it and how low the actual bonuses are. You've still got three levels where you're useless in a fight, and you still need 18 INT to get better than a +1 bonus - meaning that as far as the bonuses are concerned there's no difference between INT 5 and INT 17. My only suggestions would be to let you get it at level 1, and let you have your full INT bonus up to a maximum of your Investigator level for those bonuses.

Well, that and more Talents to let you do more things with it, as someone else already suggested.

Ok, 4th level is a little rough, I'll give you that. As far as the INT goes either im not understanding the ability of you arnt. At level 4 with a INT of 14 it would get a +2 bonus for 1 round (2 rounds with the change) right? That is how i am reading it.

As written, it's not just duration, it's also the bonus that's only half your INT bonus. The duration has improved, but the bonus doesn't hit +2 until 18 INT, +3 at 22, and without magic of some description you'll never see +4...


Turkus Longfist wrote:
Chris Parker wrote:

The only problems with studied combat is how long it takes to get it and how low the actual bonuses are. You've still got three levels where you're useless in a fight, and you still need 18 INT to get better than a +1 bonus - meaning that as far as the bonuses are concerned there's no difference between INT 5 and INT 17. My only suggestions would be to let you get it at level 1, and let you have your full INT bonus up to a maximum of your Investigator level for those bonuses.

Well, that and more Talents to let you do more things with it, as someone else already suggested.

Ok, 4th level is a little rough, I'll give you that. As far as the INT goes either im not understanding the ability of you arnt. At level 4 with a INT of 14 it would get a +2 bonus for 1 round (2 rounds with the change) right? That is how i am reading it.

at the cost of eating your standard action from the previous turn (unless you grab quick study), which is a big loss. And since it only lasts 1 round that day against that guy, and you immediately lose the bonus you worked to get if you use it's paired ability (effectively a free full sneak attack on ONE hit), it's rather hard to justify using it when you could just attack (or just stand back and let the party handle it, like theyre already doing while youre standing around studying every enemy every other turn or so).

Grand Lodge

Chris Parker wrote:
Turkus Longfist wrote:
Chris Parker wrote:

The only problems with studied combat is how long it takes to get it and how low the actual bonuses are. You've still got three levels where you're useless in a fight, and you still need 18 INT to get better than a +1 bonus - meaning that as far as the bonuses are concerned there's no difference between INT 5 and INT 17. My only suggestions would be to let you get it at level 1, and let you have your full INT bonus up to a maximum of your Investigator level for those bonuses.

Well, that and more Talents to let you do more things with it, as someone else already suggested.

Ok, 4th level is a little rough, I'll give you that. As far as the INT goes either im not understanding the ability of you arnt. At level 4 with a INT of 14 it would get a +2 bonus for 1 round (2 rounds with the change) right? That is how i am reading it.
As written, it's not just duration, it's also the bonus that's only half your INT bonus. The duration has improved, but the bonus doesn't hit +2 until 18 INT, +3 at 22, and without magic of some description you'll never see +4...

It says the bonus is half your Investigator level.


So it does. Well now I feel like an idiot...

301 to 350 of 830 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Advanced Class Guide Playtest / Class Discussion / Revised Investigator Discussion All Messageboards