Revised Investigator Discussion


Class Discussion

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Tels wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
Lord_Malkov wrote:

Dexterity Investigator

Staff Investigator
Martial Artist Investigator
Heavy Investigator

Meanwhile the Dextrous Investigator, you offer, is getting hit less often.

Dexterity is not a trap. Dexterity done right means you get hit less. Sure you do less damage. But by not getting hit you survive longer to do damage.

Lord_Malkov, something to note is that all of your builds were level 12. At level 12, the average High Attack and Low Attack from CR 9 to CR 15 threats is 21/15

Dexterity has an AC of 30
Staff has an AC of 24
Martial Artist has an AC of 22
Heavy has an AC of 25

The average HP for the CR 9 - CR 15 range is 164 with a low of 115 and a high of 220. Out of the above builds, only the Heavy investigator could probably drop something in a single round. Meanwhile, they are getting full attacked in return.

The Martial Artist is screwed when it comes to melee, just about everything is going to hit him pretty easily. The High attack misses only on a 1, while the low attack needs a 7 to hit.

The Staff is hit by the High attack on a 3 and hit by a low attack on a 9.

Heavy is hit by the high attack on a 4 and hit by the low attack on a 10.

Dexterity is hit by the high attack on a 9, and hit by the low attack on a 15. This is the only guy who is likely to withstand more than a couple rounds of combat at this range. Sure, he may not be dropping a monster in two rounds, but he's not being dropped in 2 rounds either.

Mr. Dexterity also has the best saves (in all categories) of the 4 builds you listed. With him having higher AC (meaning he gets hit less) and better saves, he is less likely to be brought down from any of the riders on the hits the other guys will fall too.

I know you're participating in the Swashbuckler thread, so you're aware of how much saves can influence a game. Out of all the builds you posted, I, personally, would take the Dexterity guy.

I understand the party and/or the Investigator could apply...

These are very valid points. Low HP coupled with a d8 hit die is actually the biggest weakness of the class when engaged in melee and isn't something to take likely.

I ran a bunch of level 9 builds with full WBL, and while the Str builds do more damage (particularly the Kirin Strike build), the Dex builds aren't terribly far behind so long as you can get Dex to damage. Really either build is viable and the one should use comes down to party makeup and personal preference.

Grand Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Give the investigator the ability to do debuffs and inflict conditions like sickened etc ala Dirty fighting (even with mediocre damage potential) and he'll shine in his own right.

Dark Archive

I'm a noob older player, and for my fourth RPG session ever, I chose an Investigator with a sword cane. It just SEEMED like the right weapon for this character.

Perhaps it was TOO right for the character. A weak sister as a level 1 character, with a wimpy weapon I discovered.

Don't know if it's too late to magnify this set...,but with studied attack, this character should be able to find the weak spot in any opponent's armor with a precision blade of stabbiness.


Item Lore: This is a bit of a trap ability. A lens of detection is 3500 gp and at level 7 is a much better investment than item lore. It does a lot more, is thematic, and the cost soon becomes a trifle.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

An investigator makes for a decent combat Maneuvers specialist.

Between studied strike, inspiration, and elixirs an investigator can really lay down some trips, disarms, graps and dirty tricks. Since anything that adds to attack also adds to CMB.

Yes, I feel this angle deserves further focus. I'd like to call the investigator a combat maneuver generalist tough. How about studied combat makes you immune to AoOs from your target? This allows impromptu combat maneuvers (you can do them safely without feats, avoiding the usual AoO) and some cool maneuvering besides.


Starfox wrote:
Item Lore: This is a bit of a trap ability. A lens of detection is 3500 gp and at level 7 is a much better investment than item lore. It does a lot more, is thematic, and the cost soon becomes a trifle.

This Lens of Detection?

The one that has nothing to do with identifying magic items at all?

Am confuzz


Investigator needs Monocle class feature.


Rynjin wrote:

This Lens of Detection?

The one that has nothing to do with identifying magic items at all?

Ops, I misremembered. My bad. Actually quite odd there is no item that does this; as a lvl 0 use-activated item it would be around 1100 gp. Maybe something for the ACG too, it it holds magic items for the new classes.

Scarab Sages

I think what the class really needs is it's own equivalent of the Alchemist's "Throw Anything". That feat and the +1 int damage to splash weapon makes a huge difference for low level alchemists. The Investigator still does not get mutagen, bombs and brew potion at 1st so it really would not step on alchemist's toes to give the investigator something similar.

I want to say "Catch Off Guard" and +1 int damage would work great for this purpose but I'm not sure. The investigator being great at using whatever is at hand seems the right flavor but I am not sure it would work for many builds. It needs something. Right now it is considerably weaker than both parent classes until 4th level.


Tels wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
Lord_Malkov wrote:

Dexterity Investigator

Staff Investigator
Martial Artist Investigator
Heavy Investigator

Meanwhile the Dextrous Investigator, you offer, is getting hit less often.

Dexterity is not a trap. Dexterity done right means you get hit less. Sure you do less damage. But by not getting hit you survive longer to do damage.

Lord_Malkov, something to note is that all of your builds were level 12. At level 12, the average High Attack and Low Attack from CR 9 to CR 15 threats is 21/15

Dexterity has an AC of 30
Staff has an AC of 24
Martial Artist has an AC of 22
Heavy has an AC of 25

The average HP for the CR 9 - CR 15 range is 164 with a low of 115 and a high of 220. Out of the above builds, only the Heavy investigator could probably drop something in a single round. Meanwhile, they are getting full attacked in return.

The Martial Artist is screwed when it comes to melee, just about everything is going to hit him pretty easily. The High attack misses only on a 1, while the low attack needs a 7 to hit.

The Staff is hit by the High attack on a 3 and hit by a low attack on a 9.

Heavy is hit by the high attack on a 4 and hit by the low attack on a 10.

Dexterity is hit by the high attack on a 9, and hit by the low attack on a 15. This is the only guy who is likely to withstand more than a couple rounds of combat at this range. Sure, he may not be dropping a monster in two rounds, but he's not being dropped in 2 rounds either.

Mr. Dexterity also has the best saves (in all categories) of the 4 builds you listed. With him having higher AC (meaning he gets hit less) and better saves, he is less likely to be brought down from any of the riders on the hits the other guys will fall too.

I know you're participating in the Swashbuckler thread, so you're aware of how much saves can influence a game. Out of all the builds you posted, I, personally, would take the Dexterity guy.

I understand the party and/or the Investigator could apply...

All good points.

I was trying to make each build viable. The martial artist build was really more about grappling... so the defense in that case is to pin your opponent to shut off their attacks. Take one thing out of the fight, then constrict/punch it to death or just tie it up and walk away.

But yes, AC can be an issue. The thing about the heavy was that it was using a Fauchard with reach. It only lost about 15% DPR when making a single attack with vital strike until Haste is cast. With enlarrge person, it goes up to 15ft reach, and at that much reach, they can keep themselves out of a reasonable amount of trouble.

One of the great things about 15 ft reach is that anything that doesn't also have reach can't just 5ft step into you. This helps to avoid a lot of full-attacks, and it also means that instead of a normal AoO, you can make a trip attempt. There is no retaliatory AoO for not having improved trip, because they aren't in range to make one. So, this build can do a fairly decent job of keeping targets away. Strength builds also just have more buff support. THe extra attack from Haste means more, enlarge actually helps you, monstrous physique gets better etc.

Either way... dex is still pretty feat heavy. The dex build ends up being 'okay' at level 12 when it finally has some feats to support it. The Heavy build is good to go from level 1 on. The dex build may actually have been better off using Heroism as its main buff rather than haste.

I think that a sword and board build would be decent (you can use a mithral light steel shield without proficiency since it has -0 ACP) but again, its damage would be very low.

TWF seems enticing, since studied combat is giving you static damage, and it does turn out pretty well. I think a lot of it hinges on the way that the forthcoming dex-to-damage feat is worded. I have a feeling it may not work with TWF just like dervish dance.

But ultimately, the strength build is far more able to move and attack, and doesn't lose much in terms of defense.... at the very next level, that heavy build could grab heavy armor proficiency (or it could be grabbed earlier in lieu of something like furious focus) to pump its AC up by another +3.


Also... there really needs to be a feat that does this:

Double Strike
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15, BAB +3
Benefit: When wielding two weapons, you may make an attack with both your main-hand and off-hand weapon as a standard action. Roll separately for each attack. The normal penalties for wielding two weapons apply to these attacks.

Normal: You may only attack with one weapon using the standard attack action.


Lord_Malkov wrote:

Also... there really needs to be a feat that does this:

Double Strike
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15, BAB +3
Benefit: When wielding two weapons, you may make an attack with both your main-hand and off-hand weapon as a standard action. Roll separately for each attack. The normal penalties for wielding two weapons apply to these attacks.

Normal: You may only attack with one weapon using the standard attack action.

Pfft, should be rolled into another feat. Like two weapon fighting...(its not really an uncommon houserule, among the dozens for two weapon fighting.)


yeah... but then we're stepping on the toes of the Two-Weapon Warrior a bit... probably not a big deal, but that's the main reason i'd want it to be a separate feat. that and i don't expect them to change TWF.

anyway, it would be really cool if quick study let you make swift action knowledge checks (free with a point of inspiration). seems thematic (and it should probably affect all similar knowledge rolls such as the ones for the Kirin Style feat and the Know Your Enemy Student of War class feature).


MrSin wrote:
Lord_Malkov wrote:

Also... there really needs to be a feat that does this:

Double Strike
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15, BAB +3
Benefit: When wielding two weapons, you may make an attack with both your main-hand and off-hand weapon as a standard action. Roll separately for each attack. The normal penalties for wielding two weapons apply to these attacks.

Normal: You may only attack with one weapon using the standard attack action.

Pfft, should be rolled into another feat. Like two weapon fighting...(its not really an uncommon houserule, among the dozens for two weapon fighting.)

Wouldn't be a bad core rules change, but since I very much doubt that such a change would be made, a feat would suffice.

cuatroespada wrote:


anyway, it would be really cool if quick study let you make swift action knowledge checks (free with a point of inspiration). seems thematic (and it should probably affect all similar knowledge rolls such as the ones for the Kirin Style feat and the Know Your Enemy Student of War class feature).

Something that allowed DR ignorance like the Martial Artist's Exploit Weakness on a successful knowledge check would be very nice... and would fit with theme.


did you take out my italics tags!?!?!? I PUT A LOT OF THOUGHT INTO THOSE TAGS! *cries*

edit: no, that wasn't the first thing i noticed, but it might have been the second... sad, isn't it?


cuatroespada wrote:

did you take out my italics tags!?!?!? I PUT A LOT OF THOUGHT INTO THOSE TAGS! *cries*

edit: no, that wasn't the first thing i noticed, but it might have been the second... sad, isn't it?

Based on the formatting of his 'quote' he didn't change your post, intentionally, at all. What he did, was manually type in the quote format, and then copy+pasted your comment. Since the italic format isn't part of the copy paste, it doesn't get transferred over.


Tels wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:

did you take out my italics tags!?!?!? I PUT A LOT OF THOUGHT INTO THOSE TAGS! *cries*

edit: no, that wasn't the first thing i noticed, but it might have been the second... sad, isn't it?

Based on the formatting of his 'quote' he didn't change your post, intentionally, at all. What he did, was manually type in the quote format, and then copy+pasted your comment. Since the italic format isn't part of the copy paste, it doesn't get transferred over.

ah good call... he probably did copy and paste. i was being facetious anyway. :D

also, someone else said this before, but it's funnier when one of us does it. for a second i thought i was talking to myself...


cuatroespada wrote:
Tels wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:

did you take out my italics tags!?!?!? I PUT A LOT OF THOUGHT INTO THOSE TAGS! *cries*

edit: no, that wasn't the first thing i noticed, but it might have been the second... sad, isn't it?

Based on the formatting of his 'quote' he didn't change your post, intentionally, at all. What he did, was manually type in the quote format, and then copy+pasted your comment. Since the italic format isn't part of the copy paste, it doesn't get transferred over.

ah good call... he probably did copy and paste. i was being facetious anyway. :D

also, someone else said this before, but it's funnier when one of us does it. for a second i thought i was talking to myself...

You are only the second person I've seen use this avatar.


Tels wrote:


You are only the second person I've seen use this avatar.

Yet apparently there are 80 more who use it.

Paizo Employee Designer

Hey everyone,

We are nearing the last hours of the playtest, so I just wanted to pop in here and thank everyone who played, commented, and filled out their survey. And remember, if you want to update your survey you have a little more than an hour to do so...so please go HERE and do that. The survey closes with the playtest at 5 p.m. PST.

It's been a blast! And thanks agains for the wonderful help, playtest reports, stimulating discussion, and dedication to the game. We appreciate it.


Hey Stephen, want to drop any hints on what the Iconic character will be like? =)

Paizo Employee Designer

Javaed wrote:
Hey Stephen, want to drop any hints on what the Iconic character will be like? =)

Investigatory ;)


I'm guessing it'll wear plaid. Cause I don't remember the last iconic that wore plaid clothes.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Javaed wrote:
Hey Stephen, want to drop any hints on what the Iconic character will be like? =)
Investigatory ;)

Good one! I've updated all my surveys but I just want to say I absolutely can't wait to play an Investigator. I think this is one of the better built classes at the moment and really just needs some additional polish. August can't come soon enough.

Paizo Employee Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Javaed wrote:
Good one! I've updated all my surveys but I just want to say I absolutely can't wait to play an Investigator. I think this is one of the better built classes at the moment and really just needs some additional polish. August can't come soon enough.

Awesome! And I agree. I hope you enjoy the final product. :)


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Javaed wrote:
Hey Stephen, want to drop any hints on what the Iconic character will be like? =)
Investigatory ;)

Hmmm... I'll expect side burns then. Of all the things I want in this product an iconic with a good beard is near the top...


Iconic will be Howard the Duck


Seeing as how I'm about to lock a 3rd level blob of PFS GM credit with a very special boon into this class, can you give us any more indication of where Studied Strike/Studied Combat is heading?

Specifically whether the damage bonus on Studied Combat, or something like it, will likely be in the final release?

Either way, thanks for the class and for all of your patience and participation in the playtest threads! This is the first one I've been a part of and it's been great fun to see the classes evolve.

Paizo Employee Designer

redward wrote:

Seeing as how I'm about to lock a 3rd level blob of PFS GM credit with a very special boon into this class, can you give us any more indication of where Studied Strike/Studied Combat is heading?

Specifically whether the damage bonus on Studied Combat, or something like it, will likely be in the final release?

Either way, thanks for the class and for all of your patience and participation in the playtest threads! This is the first one I've been a part of and it's been great fun to see the classes evolve.

Well, given that there is still about 5 minutes left in the playtest, and we still have to go through some of the results and have more internal discussions, I can't give you anything definitive...because we don't have it yet.

But I'm still in favor of the scheme I outlined last week, and unless something drastic comes up in the final analysis, I think you will see something very like that.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
redward wrote:

Seeing as how I'm about to lock a 3rd level blob of PFS GM credit with a very special boon into this class, can you give us any more indication of where Studied Strike/Studied Combat is heading?

Specifically whether the damage bonus on Studied Combat, or something like it, will likely be in the final release?

Either way, thanks for the class and for all of your patience and participation in the playtest threads! This is the first one I've been a part of and it's been great fun to see the classes evolve.

Well, given that there is still about 5 minutes left in the playtest, and we still have to go through some of the results and have more internal discussions, I can't give you anything definitive...because we don't have it yet.

But I'm still in favor of the scheme I outlined last week, and unless something drastic comes up in the final analysis, I think you will see something very like that.

Understood, and I wasn't looking for any kind of promise. Thanks!


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Javaed wrote:
Good one! I've updated all my surveys but I just want to say I absolutely can't wait to play an Investigator. I think this is one of the better built classes at the moment and really just needs some additional polish. August can't come soon enough.
Awesome! And I agree. I hope you enjoy the final product. :)

+1

I too think this is one of the best new classes, if not the best class.
Really cool concept and design. I got a feeling this class, and the Bard, will be my favorite classes in the game.

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